Gaza and JFK

[Benjamin Cole]

31 minutes ago, Douglas Caddy said:

 I want to tell you something very clear: Don't worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it." Ariel Sharon, October 3, 2001, to Shimon Peres, as reported on Kol Yisrael radio.

 

a compilation of selected quotations - MIFTAH

MIFTAH

http://www.miftah.org › Doc › Factsheets › Other

 

I like the idea of a Jewish cabal running America.  

Israel has gone from hardscrabble desert to First World living standards in the last 30 years---even while devoting enormous resources to self-defense. 

Also, when not stopped, Israel wins its wars. 

The US is headed in the other direction, down from First World status, and has lost every war since Korea. 

Can we somehow institutionalize Jewish control of the US?  This current arrangement is too haphazard. I mean, Biden might be too foggy to follow instructions from Tel Aviv, and who trusts Trump on anything? 

 

 

[W. Niederhut]

2 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

William:

My reference to Timber Sycamore is not specious at all.

The reason I brought it up is because Assad is a secularist leader of a Middle East country, therefore the apt comparison to Nasser.

Its the same reason I mentioned the bombing of Libya.   The idea that, the way Kennedy felt about Africa, that he would resort to NATO bombing of an African country?

So both of those are in the framework of the topic of the essay. 

Jim,

    To clarify, I didn't think your reference to Timber Sycamore was specious at all.  It was important.

   What seemed "specious" to me was your comment that people here were moving the thread "off topic" by discussing the history of U.S. foreign policy changes (and the Neocons, in particular) after JFK's murder.

    JFK and Gaza is a very broad topic.

  

Edited December 30, 2023 by W. Niederhut

[James DiEugenio]

Its actually "Gaza and JFK", which changes the focus a bit.

[Sandy Larsen]

18 hours ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

20 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

In retrospect, it was an enormous mistake for the British to mandate a Jewish state in a largely Muslim territory without the blessings of the Palestinian people.

18 hours ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

This is one of the most preposterous statements I've ever read on this forum. Where would you have liked the British to plop Israel down instead? The middle of the ocean?

 

I think that the Jews should have unilaterally been given half your state here in America. You know, since you have no qualms about a people being given other people's land.

 

[Sandy Larsen]

16 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Oct. 7 was a "military response." You believe that? 

 

Yes I do, though I might use the word militant rather than military.

But just because I agree with that statement doesn't mean I condone what the militants did.

 

16 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

You will find scant few left-wingers who will explicitly and unconditionally condemn the Hamas atrocities of Oct. 7.

 

Bull----. That is an outrageous statement.

I watch a great deal of MSNBC which has numerous left-wing guests, and I didn't see a single one who didn't condemn the Oct. 7 war crimes committed by Hamas.

 

[Benjamin Cole]

1 hour ago, James DiEugenio said:

Its actually "Gaza and JFK", which changes the focus a bit.

You may interested in the some of the roots of the Muslim Brotherhood, which was, as you note, on the rise in Egypt in the post-war period. 

 

"Nazism inspired the formation of the Muslim Brotherhood, a reaction to Western culture and modernity. As early as the 1930s the Brotherhood had hundreds of thousands of followers across the Arab world. The US writer John Carlson observed: “their only liberalism is the liberal use of terror.''

Shameless supporters of the Nazis, from the beginning the Muslim Brotherhood targeted Jews in Egypt: "The Jew, if left to his own resources in Egypt, is doomed to pogrom and persecution."

But Hitler’s greatest ally was the Palestinian Mufti Haj Amin Al-Husseini. The Mufti promoted hatred and violence against the Jews of Palestine and the terrible 1941 pogrom against the Jews of Iraq, incited by the Mufti, was simply an extension of the Nazi project to exterminate the Jews.

The Nazis were eventually defeated, of course, and the Arabs have failed to defeat the Jews of Israel. But the Mufti was never tried as a war criminal.

The Arab world is now Judenrein. The Islamists'' genocidal intentions against the infidel remain very much alive. Thousands have died in Al Qaeda’s war against Jews and Crusaders; Islamists spread their bigoted poison all over the world. Hamas, with its unabashedly anti-Semitic charter, now rules Gaza. And their keffiyeh wearing supporters are visible everywhere."

--30--

There are literally dozens of photos of the pair toasting each other.  When people today speak of Islamo-nazism, there is a historical foundation to cite. 

Hitler and Palestinian Mufti Haj Amin Al-Husseini vowed to help each other kill all the Jews in the Mideast and Europe. 

Of course, the German were saved from their own folly when they were militarily defeated, and surrendered unconditionally. 

Can the same be done for Gaza. I am skeptical. 

---

Under Nasser, about 20,000 Jews were expelled from Egypt (1956-7) on se=ven days notice, after their property was expropriated. 

Maybe JFK saw Nasser as the best that could be hoped for. 

LBJ's advisers felt that chances for peace with the Arabs in the Middle East was "marginal." 

[Robert Burrows]

2 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

You may interested in the some of the roots of the Muslim Brotherhood, which was, as you note, on the rise in Egypt in the post-war period. 

 

"Nazism inspired the formation of the Muslim Brotherhood, a reaction to Western culture and modernity. As early as the 1930s the Brotherhood had hundreds of thousands of followers across the Arab world. The US writer John Carlson observed: “their only liberalism is the liberal use of terror.''

Shameless supporters of the Nazis, from the beginning the Muslim Brotherhood targeted Jews in Egypt: "The Jew, if left to his own resources in Egypt, is doomed to pogrom and persecution."

But Hitler’s greatest ally was the Palestinian Mufti Haj Amin Al-Husseini. The Mufti promoted hatred and violence against the Jews of Palestine and the terrible 1941 pogrom against the Jews of Iraq, incited by the Mufti, was simply an extension of the Nazi project to exterminate the Jews.

The Nazis were eventually defeated, of course, and the Arabs have failed to defeat the Jews of Israel. But the Mufti was never tried as a war criminal.

The Arab world is now Judenrein. The Islamists'' genocidal intentions against the infidel remain very much alive. Thousands have died in Al Qaeda’s war against Jews and Crusaders; Islamists spread their bigoted poison all over the world. Hamas, with its unabashedly anti-Semitic charter, now rules Gaza. And their keffiyeh wearing supporters are visible everywhere."

--30--

There are literally dozens of photos of the pair toasting each other.  When people today speak of Islamo-nazism, there is a historical foundation to cite. 

Hitler and Palestinian Mufti Haj Amin Al-Husseini vowed to help each other kill all the Jews in the Mideast and Europe. 

Of course, the German were saved from their own folly when they were militarily defeated, and surrendered unconditionally. 

Can the same be done for Gaza. I am skeptical. 

---

Under Nasser, about 20,000 Jews were expelled from Egypt (1956-7) on se=ven days notice, after their property was expropriated. 

Maybe JFK saw Nasser as the best that could be hoped for. 

LBJ's advisers felt that chances for peace with the Arabs in the Middle East was "marginal." 

More baldfaced propaganda pedaled by an apologist for Israeli genocide. 

[Robert Burrows]

On 12/29/2023 at 8:45 PM, Benjamin Cole said:

I like the idea of a Jewish cabal running America.  

Israel has gone from hardscrabble desert to First World living standards in the last 30 years---even while devoting enormous resources to self-defense. 

Also, when not stopped, Israel wins its wars. 

The US is headed in the other direction, down from First World status, and has lost every war since Korea. 

Can we somehow institutionalize Jewish control of the US?  This current arrangement is too haphazard. I mean, Biden might be too foggy to follow instructions from Tel Aviv, and who trusts Trump on anything? 

 

 

Let's all sing of the white man's burden and manifest destiny. 

Edited December 31, 2023 by Robert Burrows

[Paul Rigby]

14 hours ago, Paul Brancato said:

Incredible. You mention Russian expansion into Persian Caucasus. I assume this was seen by Britain as a threat to their Empire, hence this decision to arm Islamists to counter challenges to their hegemony in the bud.

Yes, Palmerston offered the same rational, in 1839, for seizing the Yemen port of Aden as he did for arming Caucasus terror groups at much the same time: Specifically, the protection of India, the jewel in the crown, not forgetting lines of imperial communication and trade with Britain's other colonial possessions in Asia.

Yemen was to be used as the primary impediment to Kennedy's further engagement with Nasser following the coup there of 26th September 1962. The received wisdom in the West is that this was the work of Nasser's agents, local and imported, but it looks much more likely to me that it was a CIA operation designed, a la Laos in late 1960, to foment precisely that cleavage. The subsequent Western response had the happy, and in my view, entirely intentional outcome, of reuniting British imperialists (the "Suez group") with their US counterparts in a way not seen since the overthrow of Mossadeq in 1953.

For an excellent overview of the Yemen coup and its aftermath, try the following. There's a rich cast of characters encompassed, not least Allen Dulles with a vintage cameo, US oil men who fail to discover oil fields subsequently located decades later, and not a few names familiar to students of the JFK assassination:

140000 A Orkaby, The International History of the Yemen Civil War, 1962-1968 (Doctoral dissertation, Harvard University, 314pp)

https://dash.harvard.edu/handle/1/12269828

[W. Niederhut]

14 hours ago, Douglas Caddy said:

 I want to tell you something very clear: Don't worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it." Ariel Sharon, October 3, 2001, to Shimon Peres, as reported on Kol Yisrael radio.

 

a compilation of selected quotations - MIFTAH

MIFTAH

http://www.miftah.org › Doc › Factsheets › Other

 

Doug,

     Based on your educational background at Georgetown, and your knowledge of American diplomacy and U.S. foreign policy, do you think JFK was the last POTUS who ever said, "No," to Israel?  Ben Gurion was furious at JFK about the Dimona nuclear project, which LBJ later greenlighted.

     LBJ also suppressed the U.S.S. Liberty incident.

     I'm not that familiar with the Middle East policies of Nixon, Ford, and Reagan.

     Cheney and Rumsfeld stacked George W. Bush's administration with PNAC Neocons.

     Bob Woodward reported, in Plan of Attack, that Dubya called Poppy Bush before his Inauguration in January of 2001 and asked, "Dad, who are the Neocons?"

      Poppy replied, "In a word, son-- Israel."

[W. Niederhut]

I'm working on answering my own question (above) about the evolution U.S. foreign policy toward Israel after JFK's assassination.

Apparently, Israel has received more foreign aid from the U.S. than any country in the world since WWII, and it looks like U.S. foreign aid to Israel surged quite dramatically after 1972-- during the Ford and Carter administrations.

I can't find any readily available data about AIPAC revenue and spending by year-- to see if there is any correlation between U.S. foreign aid to Israel and the growth of the immensely powerful Israeli lobby in the U.S. since 1963.

It's an awkward subject, but it's evident that Israel has strongly influenced U.S. foreign policy during the past 50 years-- as Ariel Sharon pointed out in 2000, when he boasted that, "Israel controls America, and the Americans know it."

The recent Gaza crisis has, certainly, re-focused attention on this issue.

Biden and Blinken have been bending over backwards to support Netanyahu's massacre of Gaza's civilian population.

At the same time, American politicians and public figures who have dared to criticize the Netanyahu administration's war crimes in Gaza have been explicitly targeted for retaliation by Israeli interest groups in the U.S.-- in a manner reminiscent of the NRA targeting politicians who support gun control legislation.

Benjamin Cole seems quite pleased with this state of affairs, without asking whether the foreign (and domestic) policies of Israel are necessarily in the best interests of the United States.  Hopefully, Ben will eventually develop a modicum of curiosity about the subject. 

For example, how does it benefit the U.S. to be drawn by Netanyahu's Likud Party into another round of multi-trillion dollar wars against Islamic nations in the Middle East?  We've been there and done that in the 21st century.

Did we learn nothing from Bush and Cheney's Neocon/PNAC debacle after 9/11?

 

[Kirk Gallaway]

10 hours ago, Paul Rigby said:

The received wisdom in the West is that this was the work of Nasser's agents, local and imported, but it looks much more likely to me that it was a CIA operation designed, a la Laos in late 1960, to foment precisely that cleavage. The subsequent Western response had the happy, and in my view, entirely intentional outcome, of reuniting British imperialists (the "Suez group") with their US counterparts in a way not seen since the overthrow of Mossadeq in 1953.

Ok, Paul, But your article doesn't really support your narrative, except maybe here, it does support your conclusion about motives of the British imperialists.:

"The last remnants of the British Middle East Empire fought with Nasser to maintain a mutually declining level of influence in the region."

 

Paul: The subsequent Western response had the happy, and in my view, entirely intentional outcome, of reuniting British imperialists (the "Suez group") with their US counterparts in a way not seen since the overthrow of Mossadeq in 1953.

Ok, in your view. But your article doesn't support your view.  In fact it sites the fall of Egyptian and British regional influence, due to the fact that Americans and Soviets appeared on the same side of the Yemeni conflict and acted mutually to confine Nasser to the borders of South Arabia.

"Despite concurrent Cold War tensions, Americans and Soviets appeared on the same side of the Yemeni conflict and acted mutually to confine Nasser to the borders of South Arabia. This internationalized conflict was a pivotal event in Middle East history as it oversaw the formation of a modern Yemeni state, the fall of Egyptian and British regional influence, another Arab-Israeli war, Saudi dominance of the Arabian Peninsula, and shifting power alliances in the Middle East."

I'm sure Jim would be very disappointed just how greatly JFK double crossed Nasser according to your narrative. But how is the "the fall of Egyptian and British regional influence" result in  your assertion that it "reunited British imperialists (the "Suez group") with their US counterparts in a way not seen since the overthrow of Mossadeq in 1953."

How did your article support your narrative?

[Sandy Larsen]

6 hours ago, W. Niederhut said:

Biden and Blinken have been bending over backwards to support Netanyahu's massacre of Gaza's civilian population.

 

Horse hockey, William! The Biden administration certainly does not support the massacre of Gazan civilians. Biden has worked constantly to try and get Netanyahu to minimize civilian casualties. You cannot blame Biden for Netanyahu's evil acts and intentions.

It is because of Biden that the Israelis notified Gazans to move to southern Gaza in order not to be caught up in the fighting when the bombing began.

As the fighting moved south, Biden tried to impress upon Netanyahu the importance of taking measures to minimize civilian casualties there. And it is Biden who has tried to get Netanyahu to provide corridors for humanitarian aid and Egypt to supply the aid.

Your and Douglas's anti-Biden rhetoric is nearly as bad as Ben's anti-Islamic rhetoric... analysis void of any nuance. You two should know better.

 

[Robert Burrows]

9 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Horse hockey, William! The Biden administration certainly does not support the massacre of Gazan civilians. Biden has worked constantly to try and get Netanyahu to minimize civilian casualties. You cannot blame Biden for Netanyahu's evil acts and intentions.

It is because of Biden that the Israelis notified Gazans to move to southern Gaza in order not to be caught up in the fighting when the bombing began.

As the fighting moved south, Biden tried to impress upon Netanyahu the importance of taking measures to minimize civilian casualties there. And it is Biden who has tried to get Netanyahu to provide corridors for humanitarian aid and Egypt to supply the aid.

Your and Douglas's anti-Biden rhetoric is nearly as bad as Ben's anti-Islamic rhetoric... analysis void of any nuance. You two should know better.

 

When Joe Biden stood behind the presidential seal and told the world that he had seen photographic evidence proving that forty babies had been beheaded by Hamas he forever lost all credibility. His craven acquiescence to Netanyahu's campaign of genocide equals complicity in war crimes. 

 

Edited December 31, 2023 by Robert Burrows

[Sandy Larsen]

8 hours ago, Robert Burrows said:

When Joe Biden stood behind the presidential seal and told the world that he had seen photographic evidence proving that forty babies had been beheaded by Hamas he forever lost all credibility.

 

Biden accidentally conflated two reports, one where babies were burned and one where babies were beheaded.

According to this Washington Post article on the forty babies story:

The Israeli government then released graphic images that claimed to show babies were burned, but still did not officially confirm decapitations of infants.

Does it really matter how the babies were killed?