Gaza and JFK

[Paul Brancato]

Tribalism. Just look around you. Stop picking good guys and bad guys. What Hamas did was horrible. What Israel is doing now is horrible. 

[James DiEugenio]

Both Pauls:

There is an interesting book on the subject you are trying to get across.  And I used it for my talk in Pittsburgh.

Its called Devil's Game by Robert Dreyfuss.

There is a lot of information in there I did not know about.

Like this: the British financed the beginning of the Muslim Brotherhood.  Why?

Because they wanted to keep the monarchies in place in the Middle East so they would not have to deal with Republican governments in their need for oil. Churchill wanted the great British navy to run on cheap Arabian oil. Once Saudi Arabia grew so powerful after the 1973 OPEC embargo, they financed the Muslim Brotherhood.

This relates back to JFK and his attempt to build a relationship with Nasser.  The British, especially Anthony Eden, despised Nasser.  For that reason: he wanted to throw off the shackles of Islamic Fundamentalism, which is why he went to war with the Muslim Brotherhood and expelled them from Egypt. Its the same reason that Eden plotted with France and Israel to overthrow Nasser in 1956.  To my knowledge, Kennedy was the only Western politician who understood how important Nasser was in the Middle East and how he could stabilize the area against the dangers of an explosion of Islamic Fundamentalism.

That explosion occurred of course in 1979 in Iran. And the area has not been the same since.

Edited December 29, 2023 by James DiEugenio

[Robert Burrows]

5 hours ago, W. Niederhut said:

Robert,

     My hunch is that Ben Cole knows almost nothing about the Talmud or the history of Islam.  He's most likely repeating recent talking points by Glenn Greenwald, Matt Taibbi, or other Murdoch media affiliates.

     Has Ben read Gibbon's Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire?

     Sir Steven Runciman's definitive History of the Crusades?

     Bat Ye'or's definitive histories of the dhimmitude of Jews and Christians in the Middle East and Balkans?

     It has been a subject of special interest to me for the past quarter century, mainly because of the centuries-long history of Islamic conflicts and co-existence with the Eastern Orthodox Church.

     Orthodox Christians and Jews have always been allowed to live in Islamic societies as dhimmis-- religious minorities who pay a special religious tax, called the jizya.  The Egyptian Copts are a well-known example.  

    Sadly, Islamophobic propaganda has been a growth industry in the U.S. since 9/11, and many Islamic societies have been mercilessly destroyed in our multi-trillion dollar post-9/11 Neocon "War on Terror"-- especially in Afghanistan, Iraq, and Syria.

     A refutation of Ben Cole's abysmally ignorant comments about the 9/11 evidence are a subject for an entirely different thread, and a different EF board.  Suffice it to say that there is a wide array of scientific and forensic data debunking the official Bush/Cheney/Zelikow narrative about what happened on 9/11.  Most people, including Ben Cole, know nothing about it.

    Hopefully, Ben will eventually study and begin to comprehend that 9/11 data.  But I won't hold my breath.  Based on his redundant comments on the subject, Ben still hasn't even discovered the evidence that Trump organized and incited a violent mob attack on the U.S. Congress on January 6th.

 

Thank you, William.

Imagine the justified uproar if, instead of stating:

"The keffiyeh crowd has delivered a demented, poisoned narrative on Israel." 

A fourm member had instead written:

"The kippah crowd has delivered demented, poisoned narrative on Gaza." 

Where is the outrage?
Why the double standard?

 

 

 

Edited December 29, 2023 by Robert Burrows

[Sandy Larsen]

6 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

The new American left is valorizing Hamas. Maybe some Westerners are becoming unWesternized.

 

Ben,

What you say here is absolute nonsense and deeply offensive. The American left is not pro-Hamas!

The American left sees Israel killing into the tens-of-thousands of innocent Gazans. We see Gazans suffering greatly and having their lives destroyed. That is what we are protesting. We are not protesting the killing of Hamas fighters.

And BTW, it is not the Muslims who are the problem in the Middle East. The problem are the various groups with their own agendas who are pitting Muslims against non-Muslims. Without them, and without Israeli hardliners like Netanyahu, there wouldn't be a Middle East problem.

In retrospect, it was an enormous mistake for the British to mandate a Jewish state in a largely Muslim territory without the blessings of the Palestinian people.

 

[Benjamin Cole]

7 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Ben,

What you say here is absolute nonsense and deeply offensive. The American left is not pro-Hamas!

The American left sees Israel killing into the tens-of-thousands of innocent Gazans. We see Gazans suffering greatly and having their lives destroyed. That is what we are protesting. We are not protesting the killing of Hamas fighters.

And BTW, it is not the Muslims who are the problem in the Middle East. The problem are the various groups with their own agendas who are pitting Muslims against non-Muslims. Without them, and without Israeli hardliners like Netanyahu, there wouldn't be a Middle East problem.

In retrospect, it was an enormous mistake for the British to mandate a Jewish state in a largely Muslim territory without the blessings of the Palestinian people.

 

SL--

Thanks for your comment. 

We are on different pages on this one. 

Sadly, there are many on the American left who support or refuse to condemn Hamas. 

I wish it was different. 

https://www.thedailybeast.com/left-wing-defenses-of-hamas-are-an-insult-to-palestinians

Ponder this article from The Daily Beast, written by Matt Johnson. (I don't know much about Johnson, btw).  Excerpted below: 

"On Oct. 30, a long list of faculty at Columbia University and Barnard College attached their names to an open letter which argued that the murders, rapes, and kidnappings committed by Hamas against Israelis and foreign nationals in Israel—mostly civilians—were a “military response by a people who had endured crushing and unrelenting state violence from an occupying power over many years.”

The open letter is just the latest episode in a broader convulsion of cruel stupidity on the Western left since the atrocities of Oct. 7.

Protesters celebrated the massacre of young concert attendees in New York. The Democratic Socialists of America (DSA) declared the slaughter of civilians was a “direct result of Israel’s apartheid regime” and “not unprovoked.” An open letter from a “coalition of Palestine solidarity groups” at Harvard University announced that Israel is “entirely responsible for all unfolding violence” and stated that the “apartheid regime is the only one to blame.”

Underneath the outright refusal to condemn an explicitly genocidal organization that just carried out the largest mass murder of Jews since the Holocaust, there are a couple of revealing assumptions. These assumptions—which are obscured by the language of faux anti-imperialism and humanitarian concern—help to explain why otherwise decent people can excuse (and even endorse) the worst crimes imaginable."

---30---

 

This situation described above aligns with the Harvard U. President stating that calling for the genocide of Jews was OK at Harvard, "depending on context." 

Sandy, I do not detect in any of your writing hatred towards any group. Never have. Perhaps that admirable lack of hatred in your core is your strength, but prevents you from seeing others as they are. 

 

 

 

[Sandy Larsen]

49 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

"On Oct. 30, a long list of faculty at Columbia University and Barnard College attached their names to an open letter which argued that the ... [Oct. 7 attack on Israel was] ... a “military response by a people who had endured crushing and unrelenting state violence from an occupying power over many years.”

 

Ben, read the above. It is what you quoted from the article that you claim exposes the American left's support of Hamas. I have removed the inflammatory words of the author of the article and replaced them with what the open letter probably says.

If you read that, you will see that the letter merely states the reason Hamas attacked Israel. Giving a reason for something is not the same thing as supporting it.

For reference, here is what the author wrote, with HIS OWN inflammatory words made bold:

 

49 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

"On Oct. 30, a long list of faculty at Columbia University and Barnard College attached their names to an open letter which argued that the murders, rapes, and kidnappings committed by Hamas against Israelis and foreign nationals in Israel—mostly civilians—were a “military response by a people who had endured crushing and unrelenting state violence from an occupying power over many years.”

 

The goal of the author is to raise the ire of people like you who already have a negative bias against liberals.

Well, congratulations to the author... he succeeded.

 

49 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

The open letter is just the latest episode in a broader convulsion of cruel stupidity on the Western left since the atrocities of Oct. 7.

 

See, there he goes again, attempting to influence people like you into hating people like me.

Congratulations to him again! It worked!

(I know you don't hate me prsonally. But you do hate the new American left, and those ARE people like me.)

You have been had. Duped. Just like Trump duped you.

 

49 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Sandy, I do not detect in any of your writing hatred towards any group. Never have. Perhaps that admirable lack of hatred in your core is your strength, but prevents you from seeing others as they are.

 

Well Ben, there extremists on both ends of the spectrum. You should be wary of hate merchants like the author of the article you linked to. It is people like him who are the problem in today's divided America... and in the Middle East as well.

 

[Jonathan Cohen]

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

In retrospect, it was an enormous mistake for the British to mandate a Jewish state in a largely Muslim territory without the blessings of the Palestinian people.

This is one of the most preposterous statements I've ever read on this forum. Where would you have liked the British to plop Israel down instead? The middle of the ocean?

[Robert Burrows]

1 hour ago, Benjamin Cole said:

SL--

Thanks for your comment. 

We are on different pages on this one. 

Sadly, there are many on the American left who support or refuse to condemn Hamas. 

I wish it was different. 

https://www.thedailybeast.com/left-wing-defenses-of-hamas-are-an-insult-to-palestinians

Ponder this article from The Daily Beast, written by Matt Johnson. (I don't know much about Johnson, btw).  Excerpted below: 

"On Oct. 30, a long list of faculty at Columbia University and Barnard College attached their names to an open letter which argued that the murders, rapes, and kidnappings committed by Hamas against Israelis and foreign nationals in Israel—mostly civilians—were a “military response by a people who had endured crushing and unrelenting state violence from an occupying power over many years.”

The open letter is just the latest episode in a broader convulsion of cruel stupidity on the Western left since the atrocities of Oct. 7.

Protesters celebrated the massacre of young concert attendees in New York. The Democratic Socialists of America (DSA) declared the slaughter of civilians was a “direct result of Israel’s apartheid regime” and “not unprovoked.” An open letter from a “coalition of Palestine solidarity groups” at Harvard University announced that Israel is “entirely responsible for all unfolding violence” and stated that the “apartheid regime is the only one to blame.”

Underneath the outright refusal to condemn an explicitly genocidal organization that just carried out the largest mass murder of Jews since the Holocaust, there are a couple of revealing assumptions. These assumptions—which are obscured by the language of faux anti-imperialism and humanitarian concern—help to explain why otherwise decent people can excuse (and even endorse) the worst crimes imaginable."

---30---

 

This situation described above aligns with the Harvard U. President stating that calling for the genocide of Jews was OK at Harvard, "depending on context." 

Sandy, I do not detect in any of your writing hatred towards any group. Never have. Perhaps that admirable lack of hatred in your core is your strength, but prevents you from seeing others as they are. 

 

 

 

Deleted

Edited December 29, 2023 by Robert Burrows

[Robert Burrows]

Deleted

[Robert Burrows]

23 minutes ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

This is one of the most preposterous statements I've ever read on this forum. Where would you have liked the British to plop Israel down instead? The middle of the ocean?

Albert Einstein thought it was a mistake too...

[Jonathan Cohen]

11 minutes ago, Robert Burrows said:

Albert Einstein thought it was a mistake too...

Uh-huh. Noted Middle East policy expert Albert Einstein. Thank goodness he weighed in on the conflict!

[Robert Burrows]

29 minutes ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

Uh-huh. Noted Middle East policy expert Albert Einstein. Thank goodness he weighed in on the conflict!

Lazy response. Read what one of the greatest minds in history said about the situation, then comment.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.middleeastmonitor.com/20210604-the-final-downfall-of-israel-was-predicted-by-einstein/amp/

Edited December 29, 2023 by Robert Burrows

[Benjamin Cole]

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Ben, read the above. It is what you quoted from the article that you claim exposes the American left's support of Hamas. I have removed the inflammatory words of the author of the article and replaced them with what the open letter probably says.

If you read that, you will see that the letter merely states the reason Hamas attacked Israel. Giving a reason for something is not the same thing as supporting it.

For reference, here is what the author wrote, with HIS OWN inflammatory words made bold:

 

 

The goal of the author is to raise the ire of people like you who already have a negative bias against liberals.

Well, congratulations to the author... he succeeded.

 

 

See, there he goes again, attempting to influence people like you into hating people like me.

Congratulations to him again! It worked!

(I know you don't hate me prsonally. But you do hate the new American left, and those ARE people like me.)

You have been had. Duped. Just like Trump duped you.

 

 

Well Ben, there extremists on both ends of the spectrum. You should be wary of hate merchants like the author of the article you linked to. It is people like him who are the problem in today's divided America... and in the Middle East as well.

 

Oct. 7 was a "military response." You believe that? 

Using neutral language hardly disguises the appalling reality of that day. In fact, it strikes me as extraordinarily callous. 

We are far apart of this one. 

If anyone has me "duped," right now it is RFK2. I always thought Trump was a carnival barker, although the sad truth he was the best option at the time. 

BTW I voted for Obama two times (I do not know if I bothered the second time around, TBH) and did not bother to vote for Trump. 

You will find scant few left-wingers who will explicitly and unconditionally condemn the Hamas atrocities of Oct. 7. Some valorize Hamas. 

Yes, there are hate merchants in all sides of the political spectrum. It sure looks like a race to the bottom of the septic tank. 

 

[Robert Burrows]

19 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Oct. 7 was a "military response." You believe that? 

Using neutral language hardly disguises the appalling reality of that day. In fact, it strikes me as extraordinarily callous. 

We are far apart of this one. 

If anyone has me "duped," right now it is RFK2. I always thought Trump was a carnival barker, although the sad truth he was the best option at the time. 

BTW I voted for Obama two times (I do not know if I bothered the second time around, TBH) and did not bother to vote for Trump. 

You will find scant few left-wingers who will explicitly and unconditionally condemn the Hamas atrocities of Oct. 7. Some valorize Hamas. 

Yes, there are hate merchants in all sides of the political spectrum. It sure looks like a race to the bottom of the septic tank. 

 

The Hamas attack was an atrocity. Isreal's response is another, ongoing, atrocity. 

[W. Niederhut]

deleted

Edited December 29, 2023 by W. Niederhut