Matt Allison Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 I would certainly enjoy reading/hearing David and Larry's presentation on this; I have a couple questions and observations. While trying to gauge a person's demeanor from a transcript is very difficult, reading Victor H.'s HSCA testimony one gets the impression of utmost confidence. I want to re-read it, because I think he subtly gives away some pre-planned obfuscation. He seems to be very deliberately trying to give the appearance of cooperation, and I sense some coaching occurred? I don't know. His invective towards the CIA doesn't sound sincere to me. It is impossible to not notice that he was removed from the country entirely to France during the duration of the Garrison case; from March 1967 to 1969. What are we to think of all that is made of his contact with the FBI in 1965 about the behavior of Cubela at that time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Boylan Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 52 minutes ago, Matt Allison said: I would certainly enjoy reading/hearing David and Larry's presentation on this; I have a couple questions and observations. While trying to gauge a person's demeanor from a transcript is very difficult, reading Victor H.'s HSCA testimony one gets the impression of utmost confidence. I want to re-read it, because I think he subtly gives away some pre-planned obfuscation. He seems to be very deliberately trying to give the appearance of cooperation, and I sense some coaching occurred? I don't know. His invective towards the CIA doesn't sound sincere to me. It is impossible to not notice that he was removed from the country entirely to France during the duration of the Garrison case; from March 1967 to 1969. What are we to think of all that is made of his contact with the FBI in 1965 about the behavior of Cubela at that time? Matt, I think you are right about Victor. He was very confident. He played dumb when questioned by the HSCA. He was the leader of the Lake Pontchartrain crew and knew Mike McLaney from the casinos in Havana. He also knew Norman Rothman and would hang out with Rothman's son, Cappy. Carlos H considered Victor and Miguel "Mike" Alvarez his best friends. He had met them at the "camps." Alvarez would become the leader of the AMHAZE team prior to the BOP. Carlos was AMHAZE-2523, Victor was AMHINT-24. Carlos and Victor were members of the "cadre" as set up by Carl Jenkins. The cadre were the original recruits for the Cuba Project aka BOP. They were trained to infiltrate Cuba and train the underground prior to the BOP. Some members (Carlos, Victor) were sent to New Orleans (JMMOVE) to train Nino Diaz's recruits in February 1961. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Allison Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 Is the Lancer presentation available anywhere in PDF form? I would truly enjoy reading it and having a discussion about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Boylan Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 12 hours ago, Matt Allison said: Is the Lancer presentation available anywhere in PDF form? I would truly enjoy reading it and having a discussion about it. Matt, Much of this will be included in the "Entangling Oswald" piece me and Larry are working on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Boylan Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 (edited) When Larry and I were digging though the JURE and Manuel Ray documentation, we came upon the possibility that Sylvia Odio was being used by Ray to target Carlos Lechuga for recruitment. Ray was very close to Sylvia's parents who, along with Ray the leading members of the MRP (later JURE). They were captured and imprisoned by Castro in 1961. Ray was friendly with Lechuga and was attempting through Lechuga to get her parents released. Ray first attempted to recruit Lechuga in 1962 and in 1963 used "a woman member of the JURE" to recruit Lechuga. At the same time, Emilio Rodriguez, SAS/JMWAVE, Arnesto's brother, was also trying to recruit Lechuga. And in that small world of coincidences, Emilio's (and Tony Sforza's) asset Jose Casas (AMOT-106) was being used to target Eusebio Azcue for recruitment in Mexico City before Azcue was re-assigned back to Havana in early October 1963. And another coincidence, Oswald was dropped into the middle of this. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=197953#relPageId=16 https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=38337#relPageId=29 The Rodriguez referenced here is Alfonso Rodriguez (SAS/SO) aka Willard Nauman aka Rod. A-Rod was Special Assistant to William Harvey and later Dez Fitzgerald. He was the Case Officer for both Rogelio Cisneros and Manuel Ray. Rodriguez handled to JURE effort for the Autonomous Operations Project. Henry Hecksher (SAS/SO) handled the AMWORLD / MRR effort for Autonomous Operations Project. Edited February 14 by David Boylan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Allison Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 12 hours ago, David Boylan said: Much of this will be included in the "Entangling Oswald" piece me and Larry are working on. Great to hear! I very much look forward to that; always enjoy the insight you and Larry provide. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerry Down Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 18 hours ago, David Boylan said: When Larry and I were digging though the JURE and Manuel Ray documentation, we can upon the possibility that Sylvia Odio was being used by Ray to target Carlos Lechuga for recruitment. Ray was very close to Sylvia's parents who, along with Ray the leading members of the MRP (later JURE). They were captured and imprisoned by Castro in 1961. Ray was friendly with Lechuga and was attempting through Lechuga to get her parents released. Ray first attempted to recruit Lechuga in 1962 and in 1963 used "a woman member of the JURE" to recruit Lechuga. At the same time, Emilio Rodriguez, SAS/JMWAVE, Arnesto's brother, was also trying to recruit Lechuga. And in that small world of coincidences, Emilio's (and Tony Sforza's) asset Jose Casas (AMOT-106) was being used to target Eusebio Azcue for recruitment in Mexico City before Azcue was re-assigned back to Havana in early October 1963. And another coincidence, Oswald was dropped into the middle of this. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=197953#relPageId=16 https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=38337#relPageId=29 The Rodriguez referenced here is Alfonso Rodriguez (SAS/SO) aka Willard Nauman aka Rod. A-Rod was Special Assistant to William Harvey and later Dez Fitzgerald. He was the Case Officer for both Rogelio Cisneros and Manuel Ray. Rodriguez handled to JURE effort for the Autonomous Operations Project. Henry Hecksher (SAS/SO) handled the AMWORLD / MRR effort for Autonomous Operations Project. So inside the SAS, the CIA split their Autonomous Operations Project into a left-wing and a right-wing faction: Left wing JURE (Headed by Alfonso Rodriguez) Right wing MRR (Headed by Henry Hecksher) Then when it came to the recruitment of Carlos Lechuga, there was also a left-wing and right-wing effort: Left wing Manuel Ray effort Right wing Emilio Rodriguez effort If i remember correctly, JFK liked Manuel Ray but the CIA didn't. They viewed Ray as too left wing. But the CIA were still using Ray and incorporating him into their efforts. Perhaps they had no choice if RFK was making them do it. It makes you wonder if there was an internal struggle inside the CIA whereby Manuel Ray was trying to recruit Carlos Lechuga but the CIA secretly did not want this and would prefer for Emilio Rodriguez to do it instead. Makes you wonder if this could have led to sabotage efforts by the CIA to scupper Manuel Rays effort to recruit Lechuga. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kelly Posted February 13 Author Share Posted February 13 On 2/2/2024 at 2:29 PM, Paul Brancato said: Question - in a nutshell, from his own perspective why was Oswald with these two Cubans at the Odio’s? Paul, I think this is a very interesting question. With the games Oswald was playing that summer of 1963, he must have had a difficult time keeping his bearings. He was clearly in over his head, and BY THE WAY- he was only 23 years old. In TMWKTM, Dick Russell interviewed Col. William Bishop (a very interesting character in his own right) and Bishop stated that he knew (or knew of) Nagell, Angel and Leopoldo. Bc of what Nagell told Russell, Russell asked Bishop if perhaps Ang/Leo convinced Oswald that they were working for Cuban G2 intelligence. This was his response: "I don't know that for a fact, but it's a good possibility. At that point, it would have been relatively simple if Angel and Leopoldo dealt with Oswald. 'How can you prove you're Cuban intelligence? Do you know so-and-so?' Yea, it's possible it was a set-up deal. I've done it myself. They could have been double agents and convinced Oswald, falsely, that they were Cuban intelligence or associated with it. I'll tell you one damn thing, whoever set up that poor son of a bitch did a first-class job." At first for me this seemed hard to conceive- how could Oswald be fooled in this way? Subconsciously however, Oswald's dealings with Ang/Leo the way they were portrayed in "JFK" were playing in my mind, where all three of them were consorting with Bannister, Ferrie and Shaw and other right wing characters in the same room. BUT if Ang/Leo were never accompanied by other obvious anti-Castro figures in their dealings with Oswald, maybe they were able to convince him that they were G2. And then perhaps that is how they were able to manipulate Oswald, of course with the ultimate goal of painting him as pro-Castro/someone who had shady dealings with agents of Russia and Cuba. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Allison Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 12 minutes ago, Brian Kelly said: At first for me this seemed hard to conceive- how could Oswald be fooled in this way? Accusations of playing for the opposing side were rampant in pro and anti-Castro circles in 1963. Very rampant. There was more distrust than trust going around. So plenty of folks got fooled during this period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Bulman Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 24 minutes ago, Matt Allison said: Accusations of playing for the opposing side were rampant in pro and anti-Castro circles in 1963. Very rampant. There was more distrust than trust going around. So plenty of folks got fooled during this period. Somebody was fooling them on purpose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Boylan Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 On 2/4/2024 at 7:37 AM, Gerry Down said: So inside the SAS, the CIA split their Autonomous Operations Project into a left-wing and a right-wing faction: Left wing JURE (Headed by Alfonso Rodriguez) Right wing MRR (Headed by Henry Hecksher) Then when it came to the recruitment of Carlos Lechuga, there was also a left-wing and right-wing effort: Left wing Manuel Ray effort Right wing Emilio Rodriguez effort If i remember correctly, JFK liked Manuel Ray but the CIA didn't. They viewed Ray as too left wing. But the CIA were still using Ray and incorporating him into their efforts. Perhaps they had no choice if RFK was making them do it. It makes you wonder if there was an internal struggle inside the CIA whereby Manuel Ray was trying to recruit Carlos Lechuga but the CIA secretly did not want this and would prefer for Emilio Rodriguez to do it instead. Makes you wonder if this could have led to sabotage efforts by the CIA to scupper Manuel Rays effort to recruit Lechuga. Gerry, A-Rod was also running "Operation Leonardo" aka the AMTRUNK operation. (Capt. Bradley Ayers was hired to work with AMTRUNK recruits). This was the early version to "Split the Regime" as suggested by Walt Rostow. David Morales was originally pulled into AMTRUNK but didn't like the leftist bent of this. Some reading for you! 🙂 Track Two - autonomous Operations developed by Walt Rostow https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=149443#relPageId=1 https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=235780#relPageId=2 Operations to Split the Regime. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=233881#relPageId=1 AMTRUNK docs https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=43098#relPageId=1&search=davies_and morales and rodriguez AMTRUNK status https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=234832#relPageId=1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerry Down Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 2 hours ago, David Boylan said: Gerry, A-Rod was also running "Operation Leonardo" aka the AMTRUNK operation. (Capt. Bradley Ayers was hired to work with AMTRUNK recruits). This was the early version to "Split the Regime" as suggested by Walt Rostow. David Morales was originally pulled into AMTRUNK but didn't like the leftist bent of this. Some reading for you! 🙂 Track Two - autonomous Operations developed by Walt Rostow https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=149443#relPageId=1 https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=235780#relPageId=2 Operations to Split the Regime. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=233881#relPageId=1 AMTRUNK docs https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=43098#relPageId=1&search=davies_and morales and rodriguez AMTRUNK status https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=234832#relPageId=1 Thanks. I'm still behind on my last batch of reading 🙂 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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