Brian Kelly Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 Hello All, First time, long time. I wanted to start off by focusing on a mystery of the case that (in a perfect world) could have been illuminated by released government files. But of course that is not the reality, and I'm not holding my breath. I don't believe that anything that explosive remains in any government file. At any rate, this is one of the more interesting rabbit holes I like to fall down- the identity of Angel and Leopoldo. Most or all of what we know about the pair comes from the Odio incident (of course) and the much-debated breadcrumbs from Richard Case Nagell. There has been little progress in this area over a span of decades. I will narrow this thread down to one specific question as it pertains to Angel/Leopoldo. Herminio Diaz is as good a suspect for Angel as anyone at this point in time. But there is one aspect to Diaz being Angel that could be slightly troubling- according to official records he did not arrive in the US until July of 1963 (I think in Miami?). Is this too late for him to have been the Angel involved with Oswald during his intriguing summer of 63' in New Orleans? (Oswald was in NO from April-beginning Oct 1963 I believe) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Thomas Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 2 hours ago, Brian Kelly said: (Oswald was in NO from April-beginning Oct 1963 I believe) Brian, I think the last time Oswald was placed in New Orleans was September 25th, but off the top of my head, I don't remember the source for that. Ruth Paine or Marina maybe? Steve Thomas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Doudna Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 10 hours ago, Steve Thomas said: Brian, I think the last time Oswald was placed in New Orleans was September 25th, but off the top of my head, I don't remember the source for that. Ruth Paine or Marina maybe? Steve Thomas I think there was an unemployment check cashed by Oswald at a grocery store in New Orleans that FBI investigation found could not have been received by Oswald in the mail and then cashed in New Orleans before the morning of Wed Sept 25. Ruth and Marina were already gone by then according to their and other persons' testimony, but Oswald cannot have left New Orleans before the morning of Wed Sept 25. Then, that is in agreement with the correct dating of the Silvia Odio sighting in Dallas, early evening Wed Sept 25, in which Oswald was in a car with two others having arrived from New Orleans, about an 8 hour drive. The timeline works, and Oswald then was seen leaving Silvia Odio's that evening driven in a car. The Warren Report could not figure how Oswald could have gotten from New Orleans that morning to Houston later that night and considered it a deep mystery, even though there is nothing implausible about Oswald having been driven as the two Odio sisters witnessed. 13 hours ago, Brian Kelly said: There has been little progress in this area over a span of decades. To the contrary, a major development on the issue of the identity of Silvia Odio's "Leopoldo" and "Angel" or "Angelo" was a presentation at the Lancer conference of Nov 2023, two months ago, by David Boylan, presenting argument of Boylan and Hancock for identifications of Victor Espinosa Hernandez for "Leopoldo" and Carlos Hernandez for "Angel". The argument is strong that this is the true solution to those identities replacing prior speculations. I do not know how that argument can be accessed other than via the Lancer video presentation at this point; I hope that it will be made available as an article online. The identifications are significant in linking to Oswald's Cuban associations in New Orleans and DRE/CIA in Miami. Accessible background to this is the 2022 Hancock and Boyle article on the Redbird Airport leads in which those two figures are discussed, but without the Odio sighting identifications, https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rODOLtGaAe0cni6N5rBnmgmwC71N2hpN/view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kelly Posted February 1 Author Share Posted February 1 Hey Steve, I don't want to say much about Ruth Paine at the moment, so I don't get sidetracked. But the Odio incident in Dallas was supposed to be a day on that last week of September, maybe the 25th, 26th, or the 27th. So that being said, would 2 months time be enough for Diaz/Angel to "befriend" Oswald? Maybe Leopoldo started his association with Oswald earlier that spring/summer and then brought Angel into the fray later? There is also the nature of the relationship from Oswald's view which is mysterious as well. If anyone has any interesting suspects for Angel or Leopoldo, I would love to hear it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kelly Posted February 1 Author Share Posted February 1 Ok thanks Greg I will check it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Boylan Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 (edited) It's a tough subject to cover without having to listen to my boring voice for over an hour. Sylvia Meagher in 1967 coined the Odio visit "Proof of the Plot." There's been more than a few possible suspects over the years: Hall, Howard, Seymour; Angelo Murgado and Bernie de Torres; Herminio Diaz-Garcia and de Torres. James Richards threw out Victor Espinosa's name in 2007(?). The key is tying her visitors from Miami to New Orleans to Dallas. Edited February 1 by David Boylan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Thomas Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 Sit down and look at a map. The idea of someone traveling from New Orleans to Mexico City by way of Dallas, TX in order to get a letter translated is preposterous. So, you have to ask, "What else might have been going on"? Some gun running perhaps? Someone connected to JURE? The answer to that question might give you a clue as to their identity. Steve Thomas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Bauer Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 (edited) The Sylvia Odio story ( including her sister Annie ) is one of the most compelling Oswald sighting testimonies of all. The WC really didn't know what to do with her. I have never doubted her story. YouTube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1am-EkfBcmM The Odio Incident - YouTube Edited February 2 by Joe Bauer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kelly Posted February 2 Author Share Posted February 2 David- great to hear from you. I think I have googled every one of those names at one point or another. Murgado, for example, only has that one grainy picture of him as an older gentleman on Spartucus Educational. Hard to tell anything from that picture. When it comes to Angel/Leopoldo it is nice to have some pictures to look at. Anywho, here's a question for you- have you ever considered that one of the Cubans suspected of being either Angel or Leopoldo is someone more well-known to the JFKA community in terms of names? Someone maybe a little more in plain sight? Joe- I totally agree, I don't know what it is exactly, but it is compelling. The direct ties to Oswald, the aliases or "war names", the WC members seeing it as problematic to their lone-nut conclusion, and investigators such as Fonzi and Meagher and many many others realizing the importance of the story. I think it all adds to the interest. So good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Allison Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 Interesting. Victor's nickname was "Papucho", I assume because of his looks and/or reputation as a ladies man. "Leopoldo" is the one that called Odio after the incident; I can't remember if he was trying to get "fresh" with her or not, but Odio's attractiveness at the time did not go unnoticed by quite a few suitors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Boylan Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 (edited) 9 hours ago, Matt Allison said: Interesting. Victor's nickname was "Papucho", I assume because of his looks and/or reputation as a ladies man. "Leopoldo" is the one that called Odio after the incident; I can't remember if he was trying to get "fresh" with her or not, but Odio's attractiveness at the time did not go unnoticed by quite a few suitors. You got it Matt. He considered himself a ladies' man and did try and get "fresh" with Sylvia. He and Rolando Cubela (AMLASH-1) would often go clubbing together in Cuba. This is from his CIA profile for the Cuba Project (Bay of PIgs). 2771 is his Brigade number. Edited February 2 by David Boylan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Boylan Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 (edited) 14 hours ago, Steve Thomas said: Sit down and look at a map. The idea of someone traveling from New Orleans to Mexico City by way of Dallas, TX in order to get a letter translated is preposterous. So, you have to ask, "What else might have been going on"? Some gun running perhaps? Someone connected to JURE? The answer to that question might give you a clue as to their identity. Steve Thomas Steve, Carlos Hernandez was a member of JURE in September 1963. Specifically, he was the Military Coordinator for Carlos Zarraga's Cuba Libre group which was a JURE member. Zarraga was the number three man in JURE and was their weapons supplier. He was close to Manolo Ray and Rogelio Cisneros. Cisneros visited Sylvia Odio in June as part of JURE's effort to get weapons (Juan Martin episode). Zarraga would resign from JURE 9/64 after Ray failed in his attempt to infiltrate into Cuba and declare a government-in-exile. Long story there. The letter was a fundraising letter from the CRC. The New Orleans CRC was struggling to raise funds to send to Miami headquarters. It got so bad by November that Tony Varona travelled to New Orleans help raise the profile of the NOLA CRC. He stayed at Augustine Guitart's house (Sylvia Odio's uncle.) Leopoldo/Victor hoped that Sylvia would translate the letter to English and send it to local Dallas businesses to raise money for the CRC. She refused as we know. Now was Victor doing a favor for his friend Frank Bartes or was there something more sinister going on? I'm not sure but he sure did paint Oswald as someone that would assassinate JFK. Was that his role here? The New Orleans Cubans Frank Bartes (AMSERF-1) was head of the New Orleans CRC. He attended Oswald's court hearing and would later argue with him outside the courthouse Augustine Guitart, Sylvia's uncle whom she would call weekly, was alternate delegate to the CRC. He also attended Oswald's court hearing. Was a CIA asset. Arnesto Rodriguez, Jr and Arnesto Rodriguez, Sr were both members of the CRC. Arnesto Jr was close to Carlos Bringuier. Arnesto's brother Emilio was a high-ranking officer at JMWAVE. Arnesto was running the Berlitz school of Modern Language when Oswald inquired about learning Spanish and the local Cuban community. Arnesto and Oswald had a brief conversation in Russian, but AR had to stop because Oswald's Russian was so much better. (Brings to mind the caller to the Soviet Embassy who's Russian was bad but his Spanish was good.) Carlos Quiroga, the guy who visited Oswald and brought him FPCC flyers, was sent by the above crew as a "Castro supporter" to test Oswald's pro-Castro beliefs. Quiroga was not a member of the CRC but would attend all their meetings at Frank Bartes' house. He was considered the liaison to the various exile groups in New Orleans. Carlos Bringuier was a former member of the CRC but resigned to become the New Orleans DRE delegate. He still went to their meetings. We all know about his confrontation with Oswald. Edited February 2 by David Boylan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Gram Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 (edited) 2 hours ago, David Boylan said: Steve, Carlos Hernandez was a member of JURE in September 1963. Specifically, he was the Military Coordinator for Carlos Zarraga's Cuba Libre group which was a JURE member. Zarraga was the number three man in JURE and was their weapons supplier. He was close to Manolo Ray and Rogelio Cisneros. Cisneros visited Sylvia Odio in June as part of JURE's effort to get weapons (Juan Martin episode). Zarraga would resign from JURE 9/64 after Ray failed in his attempt to infiltrate into Cuba and declare a government-in-exile. Long story there. The letter was a fundraising letter from the CRC. The New Orleans CRC was struggling to raise funds to send to Miami headquarters. It got so bad by November that Tony Varona travelled to New Orleans help raise the profile of the NOLA CRC. He stayed at Augustine Guitart's house (Sylvia Odio's uncle.) Leopoldo/Victor hoped that Sylvia would translate the letter to English and send it to local Dallas businesses to raise money for the CRC. She refused as we know. Now was Victor doing a favor for his friend Frank Bartes or was there something more sinister going on? I'm not sure but he sure did paint Oswald as someone that would assassinate JFK. Was that his role here? The New Orleans Cubans Frank Bartes (AMSERF-1) was head of the New Orleans CRC. He attended Oswald's court hearing and would later argue with him outside the courthouse Augustine Guitart, Sylvia's uncle whom she would call weekly, was alternate delegate to the CRC. He also attended Oswald's court hearing. Was a CIA asset. Arnesto Rodriguez, Jr and Arnesto Rodriguez, Sr were both members of the CRC. Arnesto Jr was close to Carlos Bringuier. Arnesto's brother Emilio was a high-ranking officer at JMWAVE. Arnesto was running the Berlitz school of Modern Language when Oswald inquired about learning Spanish and the local Cuban community. Arnesto and Oswald had a brief conversation in Russian, but AR had to stop because Oswald's Russian was so much better. (Brings to mind the caller to the Soviet Embassy who's Russian was bad but his Spanish was good.) Carlos Quiroga, the guy who visited Oswald and brought him FPCC flyers, was sent by the above crew as a "Castro supporter" to test Oswald's pro-Castro beliefs. Quiroga was not a member of the CRC but would attend all their meetings at Frank Bartes' house. He was considered the liaison to the various exile groups in New Orleans. Carlos Bringuier was a former member of the CRC but resigned to become the New Orleans DRE delegate. He still went to their meetings. We all know about his confrontation with Oswald. All this talk about anti-Castro fundraising reminded me of William Sturbitts’ ROCKCOM testimony: Q. ...it is possible that some of the same Cuban organizations which were being sponsored or funded by the Agency also had activities or operations in New Orleans? A. I don't know if I can answer that, whether they had the same functions. I know that some funding arrangement for subsidizing the organizations in Miami was carried out through New Orleans. Q. Well, can you be more specific about what you mean by that? A. Well, in other words, to fund these organizations we were subsidizing there had to be some ostensible source of income for them to continue what they were doing. A great number -- well, not a great number, but a number of select people were -- well, they were selected and then they were talked to, to pose as trustees, if you would, or directors or whatever you might have of some of these organizations in order to get the funding through to the organizations. These people were normally prominent people and -- (Sound like anyone we know?) Q. And did they get funded by the Agency, then, through the medium of prominent and well-to-do people? A. These well-to-do people ostensibly would call a friend of theirs that had been made trustee of another type of activity and say, you know, we are trying to assist these Cubans in this type of thing. Could your organization give us any money, and the guy on the other end would say, sure, we can probably lend you $25,000 or something like that, or donate $25,000. This is the way the funding went into the fronts. Q. And was some of that funding arranged through people in New Orleans? A. I would think so. I believe so. Another thing of note is that the CIA got the Justice Department to completely ban the FBI from any further investigation of the NOLA CRC in July (or August?) 1962, based on the “National Guard” incident earlier that year involving Bringuier, Rodriguez, and CIA asset and co-chair with Rodriguez of the secret CRC military committee Manuel Blanco. The only exception was for information obtained from approved informants, and the dedicated FBI informant for inside information on the CRC after the ban was Arnesto Rodriguez Jr., through his handler Warren DeBrueys. Edited February 2 by Tom Gram Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Boylan Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 (edited) 19 minutes ago, Tom Gram said: All this talk about anti-Castro fundraising reminded me of William Sturbitts’ ROCKCOM testimony: Q. ...it is possible that some of the same Cuban organizations which were being sponsored or funded by the Agency also had activities or operations in New Orleans? A. I don't know if I can answer that, whether they had the same functions. I know that some funding arrangement for subsidizing the organizations in Miami was carried out through New Orleans. Q. Well, can you be more specific about what you mean by that? A. Well, in other words, to fund these organizations we were subsidizing there had to be some ostensible source of income for them to continue what they were doing. A great number -- well, not a great number, but a number of select people were -- well, they were selected and then they were talked to, to pose as trustees, if you would, or directors or whatever you might have of some of these organizations in order to get the funding through to the organizations. These people were normally prominent people and -- (Sound like anyone we know?) Q. And did they get funded by the Agency, then, through the medium of prominent and well-to-do people? A. These well-to-do people ostensibly would call a friend of theirs that had been made trustee of another type of activity and say, you know, we are trying to assist these Cubans in this type of thing. Could your organization give us any money, and the guy on the other end would say, sure, we can probably lend you $25,000 or something like that, or donate $25,000. This is the way the funding went into the fronts. Q. And was some of that funding arranged through people in New Orleans? A. I would think so. I believe so. Another thing of note is that the CIA got the Justice Department to completely ban the FBI from any further investigation of the NOLA CRC in July (or August?) 1962, based on the “National Guard” incident earlier that year involving Bringuier, Rodriguez, and CIA asset and co-chair with Rodriguez of the secret CRC military committee Manuel Blanco. The only exception was for information obtained from approved informants, and the dedicated FBI informant for inside information on the CRC after the ban was Arnesto Rodriguez Jr., through his handler Warren DeBrueys. Some good points Tom. This reminds me of Alfred Moran. I haven't had time to chase this down but here are some starting points. https://www.maryferrell.org/php/cryptdb.php?id=YOCOUGH&search="alfred moran" https://www.maryferrell.org/php/pseudodb.php?id=MANGROLL_RUFUS&search="alfred moran" https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=111597#relPageId=2&search="alfred_moran" Edited February 2 by David Boylan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Brancato Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 Question - in a nutshell, from his own perspective why was Oswald with these two Cubans at the Odio’s? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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