Bill Brown Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 Mr. BALL. Then, what happened after that? Mrs. ROBERTS. He went to his room and he was in his shirt sleeves but I couldn't tell you whether it was a long-sleeved shirt or what color it was or nothing, and he got a jacket and put it on---it was kind of a zipper jacket. Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes; it was a zipper jacket. How come me to remember it, he was zipping it up as he went out the door. Mr. BALL. He was zipping it up as he went out the door? Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes. ========= Mr. BELIN - So you say he was about 5'9"? Mr. BREWER - About 5'9". Mr. BELIN - And about 150? Mr. BREWER - And had brown hair. He had a brown sports shirt on. His shirt tail was out. Mr. BELIN - Any jacket? Mr. BREWER - No. ========= Forget CE-162. Why did Oswald ditch his jacket between the rooming house on Beckley and the shoe store on Jefferson? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Doudna Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 Good valid question if Brewer's identification was correct that the man at the front of his shoe store seen through his glass front door of his store was Oswald. But if that man of Brewer was not Oswald (but was the Tippit killer), the same man who after going into the balcony of the theater was seen by officer Courson coming down from the balcony and Courson too also thought he was Oswald (though that man was not), then the question collapses. So the question is only as solid as the Tenth and Patton plus Brewer witness testimonies of the Oswald identification, however strong or not, as the case may be, as those witness identifications are. Just to be clear on that point. There is a non-zero possibility that that many witnesses, none of whom got a close look at Oswald and knew him from before (apart from Brewer who had once sold shoes to Oswald), could be mistaken in that identification, for various reasons now familiar to law enforcement and Innocence Projects, in the climate of the context then. There sure were a lot of people who thought they saw Oswald who came forth after the assassination, who didn't. The WC documents and elsewhere on the MFF site must have hundreds of such false positives of sincere but simply wrong Oswald identifications. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Roe Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 23 hours ago, Greg Doudna said: Good valid question if Brewer's identification was correct that the man at the front of his shoe store seen through his glass front door of his store was Oswald. But if that man of Brewer was not Oswald (but was the Tippit killer), the same man who after going into the balcony of the theater was seen by officer Courson coming down from the balcony and Courson too also thought he was Oswald (though that man was not), then the question collapses. The difference here with Brewer was he identified Oswald in the Texas and pointed him out to cops as the same man standing in the alcove of Hardy Shoes. Oswald murdered J.D. Tippit, no doubt about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Krome Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 4 minutes ago, Steve Roe said: Oswald murdered J.D. Tippit, no doubt about it. If Oswald was armed when confronted by Baker, do you think he would have shot him too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Gram Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 (edited) 1 hour ago, Tony Krome said: If Oswald was armed when confronted by Baker, do you think he would have shot him too? I know you said Baker, but the theater situation has always been puzzling. Oswald was surrounded by cops. If he had just killed Tippit in a desperate attempt to escape being taken into custody, why wait until the house lights were turned on and McDonald was right on top of him to attempt to pull out his gun? Why throw a punch first and not just pistol-whip McDonald at least? Why wasn’t Oswald immediately charged with attempted murder? What really happened in the scuffle? What was the real source of the alleged “misfire” incident? {insert Paul Bentley rant here}. Getting back on track to Bill’s jacket deal - it’s a valid point, but only if Brewer’s initial ID of Oswald is reliable. According to Postal’s affidavit, Brewer went in and looked for the suspect, twice - once alone and once with Burroughs - then checked and guarded the exits with Burroughs while she called the police. Brewer contradicted Postal in his testimony, and said he and Burroughs checked the exits first. Either way, where was Oswald this whole time? Brewer pointed out the guy who stood up when the lights were turned on. How sure was he, really, that it was the same guy he saw outside his store? Regarding Brewer‘s description: what is Brewer’s earliest recorded description of the suspect? If I recall, the DPD didn’t get around to taking affidavits from Brewer and Postal until December. Why not? Edited February 26 by Tom Gram Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Mellor Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 26 minutes ago, Tom Gram said: Regarding Brewer‘s description: what is Brewer’s earliest recorded description of the suspect? If I recall, the DPD didn’t get around to taking affidavits from Brewer and Postal until December. Why not? Why not? In a case that is cluttered with confusion and oddities here is another. A very close friend of Jack Ruby was Tommy Rowe. He just happened to work at Hardy's Shoe Store with Johnny Brewer. In 1964 Rowe told friends, relatives and JFKA researchers that it was he, NOT Brewer, who pointed out Oswald to the police in the dark of the Texas Theatre. Rowe was so close to Jack Ruby that Rowe moved into Ruby's apartment when he went to jail for killing Oswald. Rowe was never interviewed by the DPD or FBI. Rowe's account was published by Penn Jones in his Midlothian Mirror. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Krome Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 2 hours ago, Tom Gram said: Oswald was surrounded by cops. If he had just killed Tippit in a desperate attempt to escape being taken into custody, why wait until the house lights were turned on and McDonald was right on top of him to attempt to pull out his gun? Why throw a punch first and not just pistol-whip McDonald at least? That's right. According to LNers, Oswald was by that point a desperate killing machine. He even had extra ammo in his top pocket. He could have gone down with a few more scalps in his quest to become "famous". McDonald especially would have been easy meat, a lot closer than Tippit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Brown Posted February 27 Author Share Posted February 27 On 2/25/2024 at 5:10 PM, Greg Doudna said: Good valid question if Brewer's identification was correct that the man at the front of his shoe store seen through his glass front door of his store was Oswald. But if that man of Brewer was not Oswald (but was the Tippit killer), the same man who after going into the balcony of the theater was seen by officer Courson coming down from the balcony and Courson too also thought he was Oswald (though that man was not), then the question collapses. So the question is only as solid as the Tenth and Patton plus Brewer witness testimonies of the Oswald identification, however strong or not, as the case may be, as those witness identifications are. Just to be clear on that point. There is a non-zero possibility that that many witnesses, none of whom got a close look at Oswald and knew him from before (apart from Brewer who had once sold shoes to Oswald), could be mistaken in that identification, for various reasons now familiar to law enforcement and Innocence Projects, in the climate of the context then. There sure were a lot of people who thought they saw Oswald who came forth after the assassination, who didn't. The WC documents and elsewhere on the MFF site must have hundreds of such false positives of sincere but simply wrong Oswald identifications. The man seen by Brewer was indeed Oswald. Stop it. Forget Tenth and Patton. Forget the jacket found behind the Texaco station. Why did Oswald ditch his jacket between the rooming house on Beckley and the shoe store on Jefferson? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denny Zartman Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 5 hours ago, Tom Gram said: If he had just killed Tippit in a desperate attempt to escape being taken into custody, why wait until the house lights were turned on and McDonald was right on top of him to attempt to pull out his gun? That's what keeps getting me about the reality we're all supposed to accept as part of the whole lone nut explanation. Why would he be going to the movies at all? Maybe I'm wrong, but sitting motionless and silent in a large dark room doesn't remotely qualify as "desperately trying to get away" in my book. If LHO did kill JFK in order to be a big man, show his wife who's who, and get his name in the history books, why try to escape the law in the first place? John Wilkes Booth couldn't wait to take credit for killing Abraham Lincoln. What if someone else had been arrested and accused of killing Kennedy while Oswald was desperately trying to escape by sitting in a theater? Someone was going to be picked up. Can you imagine anything more self-owning than killing the president specifically to impress your wife and get into the history books, only to later see someone else given credit for the crime? Whenever I'm thinking about the lone nut scenario, I always wonder this: if Oswald hadn't been seen going into the theater, would he have stayed for the second feature? It sounds like I'm making a joke, but the point is real. If he hadn't been seen going in and had successfully gotten to his seat without any authorities knowing, when exactly would the actual "getting away portion" of the getaway have begun? How about the "writing name in the history book" part? Not even the "making sure the wife knew and seeing her reaction" part? We have to believe there's a guy willing to murder, but not willing to force someone to drive him somewhere at gunpoint. He wouldn't even have to do that. This is the same guy who (according to them) just got to Mexico and back using public transportation. Why, in his most desperate hour, does his very best getaway plan consist primarily (or possibly entirely) of going to the movies? It's silly. It would be almost funny if the situation wasn't so serious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gil Jesus Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 (edited) 9 hours ago, Pete Mellor said: Why not? In a case that is cluttered with confusion and oddities here is another. A very close friend of Jack Ruby was Tommy Rowe. He just happened to work at Hardy's Shoe Store with Johnny Brewer. In 1964 Rowe told friends, relatives and JFKA researchers that it was he, NOT Brewer, who pointed out Oswald to the police in the dark of the Texas Theatre. Rowe was so close to Jack Ruby that Rowe moved into Ruby's apartment when he went to jail for killing Oswald. Rowe was never interviewed by the DPD or FBI. Rowe's account was published by Penn Jones in his Midlothian Mirror. Pete, to your point: In a memo dated September 15, 1967, Garrison investigator Bill Boxley listed the contact information of witnesses in the Dallas area, in the event Garrsion wanted to question them. One of those witnesses was a man named Tommy Rowe. In Rowe’s listing, Boxley says that Rowe “allegedly told shoe store manager Oswald had gone into theater”. If Rowe was the man who saw “Oswald go ino the theater”, was he the one who saw him in the shoe store lobby ? Was he the one who walked out to the street to see him turn right and assumed he went into the Texas Theater. Did he then go back inside the store and describe him to his manager ( Brewer ) as having a brown shirt and entering the theater ? Speculation If he did, by the time Rowe described the man he saw and Brewer walked down to the ticket box, the man was gone. Brewer then asked Postal if she’d sold the man in a brown shirt a ticket. When she said no, he went inside and asked Burroughs if he had seen a man walk by wearing a brown shirt. He said no. They assumed the man had gone up the stairway between the double sets of doors to the balcony. Brewer and Burroughs then checked the balcony and the first floor and could not tell if anyone was wearing a brown shirt. They checked the exits, made sure they hadn’t been breached and went back outside and told Postal that they couldn’t find him. Convinced by Brewer the man had entered the theater, Postal assumed that he was still in the building. So she called police. Just before the police came through the back door, the house lights went on and Brewer saw Oswald moving from the seat to the aisle and back again. He noticed that Oswald was wearing a brown shirt and assumed he was the man who was at his store. When the police entered the building, he pointed Oswald out as the man “he saw”. I don't believe Brewer saw the man in the lobby. I believe it was Rowe. Edited February 27 by Gil Jesus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Doudna Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 Pages 2-20 of https://www.scrollery.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/T-Jackets-112.pdf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Mellor Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 4 hours ago, Greg Doudna said: Pages 2-20 of https://www.scrollery.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/T-Jackets-112.pdf. Great report Greg. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Mellor Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 5 hours ago, Gil Jesus said: I don't believe Brewer saw the man in the lobby. I believe it was Rowe. I suspect that too Gil. However, the claim that Rowe pointed out Oswald to the cops in the Theatre is another matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donald Willis Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 19 hours ago, Steve Roe said: The difference here with Brewer was he identified Oswald in the Texas and pointed him out to cops as the same man standing in the alcove of Hardy Shoes. Oswald murdered J.D. Tippit, no doubt about it. I have great doubts about that: Two of the men closest to the shooter & the shooting--Scoggins and Benavides--did not or would not ID Oswald in a lineup on Friday. Saturday doesn't count--Scoggins was a friend, or at least an acquaintance of Tippit's. He would surely have ID'd the killer at the first opportunity. So it wasn't Oswald... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Roe Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 23 hours ago, Tony Krome said: If Oswald was armed when confronted by Baker, do you think he would have shot him too? I have no idea. Depends on a lot of factors. All hypotheticals. Do you believe Oswald murdered officer Tippit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Please sign in to comment
You will be able to leave a comment after signing in
Sign In Now