On the Trail of the Assassins: One Man's Quest to Solve the Murder of President Kennedy

[Greg Doudna]

2 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Some of us believe the JCS (generals) instigated the CIA into planning and carrying out the assassination. It was a military coup, in that sense. Some of the generals were reportedly at the autopsy, and it's likely CIA officers were there as well.

My point was that the reasoning of citing control of the autopsy as logically exonerating mob boss over Dallas Marcello from complicity in the assassination is a logical non sequitur. It is like arguing that mob figures could not have controlled the government coverup of plots to kill Castro, therefore clearly mob figures are exonerated from the Castro plots and it was CIA agents instead in Cuba, not mob involvement, trying to off Castro. Even if mob figures confessed to involvement in the Castro plots they should not be believed because clearly it was the CIA, not the mob, who was doing that, as just definitively proven.

Same logic, same reasoning. Do you see? In neither case does the conclusion logically follow from the premise cited.

Edited March 17 by Greg Doudna

[Ron Ecker]

3 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Some of us believe the JCS (generals) instigated the CIA into planning and carrying out the assassination. It was a military coup, in that sense. Some of the generals were reportedly at the autopsy, and it's likely CIA officers were there as well.

 

The idea of the assassination as a military coup always reminds me of two emotional episodes involving Maxwell Taylor, who in 1963 was Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. The episodes suggest guilt or remorse, unless we are to believe that the murder of a president by a lone nut, mobsters or Cubans was enough to make an Army general cry, not just months but years later.

This is from “An American Soldier: The Wars of General Maxwell Taylor,” by his son John M. Taylor, pp. 290-291:

“In mid-1964, just prior to his departure for Saigon, Taylor had several conversations with Elspeth Rostow, who interviewed him at his quarters for the Kennedy Library’s oral history series. All went smoothly until the subject of the assassination arose. According to Rostow, Taylor then broke down; for several minutes there was nothing on her tape except the sound of an occasional passing car. Once he had composed himself, the interview continued.

“More than a decade later, at a family dinner, the subject turned to political dissent in the country under Nixon. Taylor had recently returned from a speaking engagement at a small New Jersey college, where hecklers had prevented him from speaking. He commented that Kennedy, had he lived, was the one person who might have preserved a degree of national cohesiveness. Then his voice broke; it was a moment before his normal self-control returned. Surrounded by his family, he had let his defenses down.”

 

[Sandy Larsen]

5 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

7 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

I'm inclined to believe what Andrews said early on, Nov. 25, 1963, to the FBI. He said it was Clay Shaw who asked him to represent Oswald.

5 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

No he didn’t. Andrews told his secretary, according to the secretary, it was “Bertrand”, Clem or Clay “Bertrand”.

 

Same person.

 

[Greg Doudna]

6 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Same person.

So you say.

I don’t agree, and neither did a unanimous jury in New Orleans. Fred Litwin on his website has several articles that debunk the Clay Shaw / Clay Bertrand identification claim of Garrison, and is the best go-to information on that particular question; I recommend you familiarize yourself with Litwin’s arguments there. 

I think Dean Andrews did give a name when his secretary asked him over the phone who had called him about defending Oswald: Lane Bertram, heard by the secretary mistakenly as “Bertrand”, then misleadingly reported by Andrews himself to the Secret Service and FBI as “Clay Bertrand”. 

I connect Dean Andrews’ “excited utterance”, caught off guard, answer to his secretary of the Lane Bertram name, the name of the SAIC agent in charge of the Houston Secret Service office, to be in some way related to Secret Service assistance in conveying a request from Dallas on Marguerite Oswald’s behalf to her old friend and Marcello aligned lawyer friend who had helped her and Lee in the past, attorney Clem Sehrt.

Clem Sehrt turned down the plea from Marguerite himself but I believe he or someone else Marcello-related informed by Sehrt was the actual caller to Dean Andrews. 

In my view, overpowering corroboration of a reconstruction that the call to Dean Andrews on the late afternoon of Sat Nov 23, 1963, re legal counsel for Oswald in Dallas, originated from Marguerite Oswald in Dallas (caller on behalf of her) and did NOT come from New Orleans Trade Mart director Clay Shaw who had nothing to do with it, is this:

Monk Zelden, probably the leading and most celebrated criminal defense attorney in New Orleans, was called by Dean Andrews to be brought into a planned defense team for Oswald.

Dean Andrews asked Zelden to go to Dallas immediately so that Oswald would have counsel, and Andrews would get to Dallas as soon as he could join Zelden there after he, Andrews, was discharged from the hospital. 

That was the plan as Dean Andrews envisioned and was discussing this with Zelden on the phone Sunday morning when the news hit that Oswald was killed, ending the plans for legal representation for Oswald. 

Here is the point: Zelden said, just as plain and as straight as could be, that the request for representation for Oswald to which Zelden had intended to assist Dean Andrews, had come from Marguerite Oswald, via intermediaries.

Not from Clay Shaw.

But from Marguerite Oswald in Dallas. 

Edited March 18 by Greg Doudna

[Greg Doudna]

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Edited March 21 by Greg Doudna

[Tom Gram]

1 hour ago, Greg Doudna said:

Garrison removes Ferrie from protective custody on Feb 21. Lo and behold, on Feb 22 Ferrie turns up dead!

"David Ferrie was found dead in his apartment in the early morning hours of February 22, 1967, an apparent suicide. The death was suspicious. Investigators, including Aaron Kohn [of the Metropolitan Crime Commission of New Orleans], suspect he was killed by agents of Carlos Marcello, who was understandably fearful of what the desperate Ferrie might tell law enforcement authorities after he was formally indicted."

Comment: again, one would wish to have a source citation to confirm Aaron Kohn did allege that. Davis here as always never provides a footnote. 

I’d be interested in seeing a source for this “investigators”/Kohn comment too.

Also do you know the details on this “protective custody” deal? Garrison had Ferrie under surveillance, which he called a “continuous stakeout” - and he outsourced at least some of it to Southern Research, the same guys who investigated Ferrie for Eastern Airlines and who were later hired by Clay Shaw’s lawyers. 

The attorneys for Southern Research of New Orleans were based out of an office directly across the street from Marcello’s Pelican Bar. One of the attorneys, a criminal named John Mmahat, was a political ally of Harry Connick who later spent decades in prison for fraud and money laundering. Mmahat worked on Connick’s campaign for DA and was one of Connick’s attorneys when Garrison challenged the results of Connick’s election.

During the Garrison investigation, Mmahat was on the Truth and Consequences Committee, ostensibly supporting Garrison while representing the detective firm working for Shaw…

Mmahat’s office at 2003 Metairie Rd. had an interesting history. The previous tenant was an attorney for the Metairie county sheriff. There was a scandal in the late 50s when it was discovered that the sheriff was a partial owner in a Marcello owned dog track, after he had denied it to the State Racing Commission. The attorney subsequently revealed publicly that he had purchased 10,000 shares in the track on the sheriff’s behalf, claiming it was without the sheriff’s knowledge. A few months later, the attorney was found dead in his office, shot in the head by a .38. The Metairie county sheriff ruled it a suicide. 

The attorney’s partner supposedly had a mental breakdown and left the state. He turned the office over to Mmahat and his partner Nick Gagliano (no relation to NOLA mob Gaglianos). Gagliano subsequently got a job as an assistant US attorney, so Mmahat took over the office, but Gagliano continued to work with Mmahat on private clients, one of them being Southern Research of New Orleans. Gagliano later broke ties with Mmahat once he realized Mmahat was a straight-up criminal. 

It’s definitely a flimsy connection, but there is at least some reason to suspect that Mmahat was involved with the mob, considering he was a full-blown criminal and worked directly across the street from a Marcello stronghold in an office that was almost certainly the site of a cold-case mob hit. 

I guess what I’m getting at here is there is a very flimsy and purely circumstantial case to be made that Marcello could’ve had an in with the guys surveilling Ferrie immediately prior to his death. 

Edited March 21 by Tom Gram

[James DiEugenio]

On 3/16/2024 at 12:57 PM, Ron Ecker said:

 

Well, this is the kind of thing that makes you want to beat your head against the wall.

 

 

Ron:

Bottom line, there is nothing on the so called first "confession", the BRILAB tapes.   I know this for a fact, since Jeremy Gunn sent me the ARRB review.    

As I said about the so called CAMTEX stuff bandied about by Waldron, Marcello clearly had dementia at this time.  And his family said the same once he got out.

BTW, CAMTEX was not new when Waldron wrote about it.  Peter Vea sent it to me earlier, much earlier.  And he included the observations by the warden about how Marcello was talking to himself and hitting his head against the wall.  So if you want to consider a guy who had all the earmarks of senility, well that is your option.  I don't.  

And please show me any corroborative evidence for this.  I mean Blakey and Billings worked overtime on this issue and what did they come up with? Nothing of any value that I can see.

The ARRB did some good work on New Orleans.  There is little or no doubt today that Shaw was Bertrand and that Andrews knew this, but he feared for his life if he told Garrison.  But he did tell Weisberg.  Under a pledge of secrecy.  Which Harold kept.

And Marcello was not on the National Commission.  He has been aggrandized by Mob did it zealots  beyond his true stature on the national scene.  What mobster did RFK not go after?  It was an obsession with Bobby.  Marcello was vulnerable because of his citizenship aspect.  So that is what Bobby went after him about.

Edited March 21 by James DiEugenio

[Ron Ecker]

32 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

Ron:

Bottom line, there is nothing on the so called first "confession", the BRILAB tapes.   I know this for a fact, since Jeremy Gunn sent me the ARRB review.    

As I said about the so called CAMTEX stuff bandied about by Waldron, Marcello clearly had dementia at this time.  And his family said the same once he got out.

BTW, CAMTEX was not new when Waldron wrote about it.  Peter Vea sent it to me earlier, much earlier.  And he included the observations by the warden about how Marcello was talking to himself and hitting his head against the wall.  So if you want to consider a guy who had all the earmarks of senility, well that is your option.  I don't.  

And please show me any corroborative evidence for this.  I mean Blakey and Billings worked overtime on this issue and what did they come up with?

 

Jim,

I have not argued that Marcello was involved. I was simply pointing out, on the subject of Garrison, that Marcello is one of the “usual suspects,” whether there’s any evidence or not, and the rather noticeable way that Garrison ignored him with respect to suspects (whether due to lack of any evidence or perhaps something else). That is all. Why ask me for evidence that I don’t have about something that I haven’t claimed?

I think the HSCA Report said it well, i.e. it wasn’t lying all the time: that Marcello had the motive, means, and opportunity, but it didn’t find any evidence.

On the subject of Marcello’s dementia, it is worth noting that one of the early signs of dementia is loss of short-term memory but not of long-term memory. I don’t know or haven’t heard if simply making things up is a sign of dementia or not. But if Marcello was involved in the assassination, I imagine he was involved before any dementia, and if he claimed, when he had dementia, that he was involved, it could be because he had long-term memory of being involved despite his mental condition and wasn’t just making it up. Who knows?

[James DiEugenio]

Let me add this:

When people start using the likes of Aaron Kohn on New Orleans,  I mean its time to throw in the towel.

Kohn was in bed with Shaw's lawyers up to his neck.

As for the whole motive, means and opportunity paradigm, Bob Tanenbaum thought that was almost a humorous way to solve a crime. He worked from the inside out, not the outside in, that is, where does the crime scene and the evidence lead you to?

I do not agree that Marcello had the means and opportunity to pull this off.  Whoever planned Kennedy's assassination had the power to do at least two dry runs, or actual attempts in advance, one in Tampa and one in Chicago.  That person would have also had the power to manipulate Oswald months in advance. Blakey and Billings' pretense for this was blown when the ARRB declassified the New Orleans interviews about Dutz Murrett.  He was not working for Marcello during the last two years of his life.  He was free lancing and also working as a longshoreman.

Finally, does anyone think Marcello had any influence with the Paines?  Or could alter the motorcade route the night before?  Or could coordinate with the Pentagon on the autopsy?  OTOH, Dulles and Lemay were pals for a long time.

I have read every single Mafia did it book there is.  And Bill Davy and myself went over all the alleged charges against Garrison in this regard.   We exposed them for what they were, namely hot air.  And Ron, I am not just talking about you, but also Greg D.  

Finally, Garrison had surveillance on Ferrie all the way up until when he passed.  In fact that is how he found out he was dead.

[Ron Ecker]

2 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

I do not agree that Marcello had the means and opportunity to pull this off.

By himself, I certainly agree with you. But he had the means and opportunity to help, if only as a false sponsor or whatever. It's possible that these Mob bosses just liked to brag with lies, like the demented Marcello saying that he did it or Trafficante allegedly saying (paraphasing), "We screwed up, we shouldn't have killed Giovanni, we should have killed Bobby." If nothing else it certainly makes sense (but of course with no evidence) that it was a Mob boss (whether Marcello, Trafficante, or Don Corleone) who made Jack Ruby an offer that he couldn't refuse.

 

 

Edited March 22 by Ron Ecker

[James DiEugenio]

That part is likely true Ron about Ruby's murder of Oswald.

Trafficante to McWillie to Ruby.

[Ron Bulman]

32 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

That part is likely true Ron about Ruby's murder of Oswald.

Trafficante to McWillie to Ruby.

Or maybe Angleton/Dulles to Harvey to Roselli to, Mc Willie or (?), locally Civello or Campisi?  Then Ruby?  I think by Friday night he got the message.

[Ron Ecker]

I've got an idea for a song. Has anyone written "The Ballad of Jack Ruby" yet? (Who was the guy who went through Bob Dylan's garbage?)

 

 

[Chuck Schwartz]

AJ Weberman (who did do some good work)

[Ron Ecker]

10 minutes ago, Chuck Schwartz said:

AJ Weberman (who did do some good work)

Weberman, right! I remember he got involved in JFK research.