John Newman and Greg Burnham Interview

[Matt Cloud]

9 hours ago, Cliff Varnell said:

I prefer to leave that speculation to those better informed on the matter.

As to the current DiEugenio-Cloud debate over Moynihan, on a lark I googled "Averell Harriman Daniel Patrick Moynihan" and found that Moynihan worked for Harriman for 3 years when Ave was Governor of New York.

Count Prescott Bush, Richard Bisssell, and Pat Moynihan as among Harriman's proteges.

Normally I'd recoil from discussions with someone whose solipsistic terminology ("the Ramparts crowd," "the Left wanted Vietnam") was matched with a condescending attitude -- but I make an exception in Matt's case.

I've long wondered if Harriman had a hand in Watergate.  Ave spent 7 months in 1968 negotiating a peace deal with North Vietnam only to have Nixon scuttle it right before the election.  Ave was angling for the Sec of State slot in a Humphrey Administration.  Was Watergate Ave's revenge?

Moynihan as Deep Throat?  Deserves a look.

Yes, a little due diligence, as you just did, would behoove everyone around here before spouting off. 

 

 

[Matt Cloud]

10 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moynihan_Commission_on_Government_Secrecy

I saw him debate Helms on TV, Moynihan wanted to completely eliminate the CIA.

He was also a harsh critic of Reagan's Central America policies.

The Neocon crowd you are talking about, like Abrams, came into Washington under Henry Jackson.

Al From and Will Marshall created the DLC.

Most people called Moynihan a neoliberal.

There's deception going on here.  You are going have to go deeper.  

Moynihan set-up iran-contra before he took it down.  Moynihan was writing Scoop Jackson's campaign speeches in 76.  Blah blah blah. 

If you want to delve deeper into DLC we can.

Neo-lib and neo-con are the same thing, essentially, with subtl differences at the edges perhaps, but think of that as a PR device to not sound so conservative.  Two side same coin -- that';s the centrism, the uni-party.  

 

This is so utterly superficial by you.  Are you analysts or what?

[Matt Cloud]

The meaningful question as regards Moynihan and the neo-cons is why did he ostensibly break from them, in public that is, after 1982.  Why do histories of neoconservatism say that after 1982 moynihan is ideologically meaningless from the neo-con pov?  

 

To begin to answer that you need to begin to understand Moynihan's relationship with DDCI John McMahon.

 

(That's the classified portion of this history.)

 

Remember McMahon debriefed Gary Powers plus Golitsyn and Nosenko, and then in 1985 "staked is career on Yurchenko's bona fides."

 

 

 

[Cliff Varnell]

Matt, I propose we skip the Moynihan-as-Deep-Throat ID and cut to the chase.

What information did Moynihan provide to reporters with the Washington Post/New York Times prior to Nixon's resignation, and how did you ascertain his involvement?

[Matt Cloud]

1 hour ago, Cliff Varnell said:

Matt, I propose we skip the Moynihan-as-Deep-Throat ID and cut to the chase.

What information did Moynihan provide to reporters with the Washington Post/New York Times prior to Nixon's resignation, and how did you ascertain his involvement?

Skipping to the chase, when the skip involves a quantum leap in understanding, generally results in reactionary rejection.  Not worth my time.  Better to take things a step at a time.  Think of me as your Deep Throat, when he says "we do this my way."  "i'll point you in the right direction, keep you in the ballpark," etc, but you have to come back and show me your engaged.  Show me you put things together for yourself somewhat.  If you don't like that, sorry.  Them's the rules.  I'm not really here to convince or change minds as such.  Rather to suggest, and point out where things may be wrong analytically.  This forum is in no way central to the action that's being taken on this.  For that, you want to keep an eye on the Florida documents case.  

That said, a quick answer to your question would be to go back and read All The President's Men, especially the Deep Throat exchanges.  What does he say: "There's a way to untangle the Watergate knot."  Well, yeah, because he tied the knot.  Moynihan set the Plumbers operation up in the first place ostensibly under an extension of Operation Chaos, with new emphasis on crackdown on heroin smuggling both abroad -- the French Connection -- and in large cities including in DC.  (Indeed, Katherine Graham of The Post, along with Edward Bennett Williams, met most confidentially with Moynihan in the first months of the Nixon admin, when he was domestic counterpart to Kissinger as Urban Affairs Advisor, to urge Nixon to "garrison the city with army reserves.)   

You might know that Woodward, in his early days at the post, which is to say in circa 1970 before he was sent out to farm in Montgomery County, was covering the police and drug beat for the Post.  It is in this capacity that the relationship with Moynihan developed.  I have no doubt that the "distinguished silver-haired gentleman" that he met in 1969 outside the WH situation Room while then still in the Navy was Moynihan.  Not the place for an FBI guy like Felt to be hanging around.  lus Felt didn't have silver hair then.  Moynihan did.  The Drug Operation, involving Krogh, Liddy and Hunt, was also a NATO operation and the kind of thing that would be discussed in the situation room.   

And that brings to mind that perhaps Felt, and the "flaws" if you like in the claim that he was Deep Throat would be worthwhile place to start.  Again, Felt as many have observed was not likely to be one hanging around the sit room.  Deep Throat, if we are to believe Woodward, knew of the taping system.  Not indication that Felt knew of this or could have known.  Felt is also not really anyone Woodward would seek a mentor relationship with; Felt being of the not-in-the circle of DC elite.  Total class distinction.  Felt is for wiretapping.  He's for busting up the Weather Underground.  He supported Nixon; has no motive here.  Which brings up his arrest and conviction.  Just how did he secure a pardon from Reagan, who it happens benefitted tremendously from Watergate, as the New Right could emerge from the Nixon shadow.  If you watch the POW-like videotape of Larry King interviewing Felt, Felt remarks that if "he [Reagan] hadn't pardoned me I would have made sure he did," or words to that effect.  You might also note that the lawyer for Felt's family has stated publicly that he was extremely cognizant of making sure the Vanity Fair piece out\ting Felt was artfully worded, hence the attenuated title, "I'm the guy they called Deep Throat."

I could go on, but that's enough for starters.  You could also engage in a negative implication analysis -- the dog that didn't bark in the night -- but asking how is it that Moynihan's name never comes up during the Watergate hearings or in any speculation as to Deep Throat.  The Watergate timeline begins basically when Moynihan first leaves the admin. He got out in the right time that is.  

Plenty to go on here.  The question you ask however isn't necessarily the right or best one.  The issue isn't the information necessarily -- as virtually all of the Post staff at the time say his significance wasn't so specific.  He provided road maps and generally lines of enquiry to pursue.  

It's a big story -- and it's not separate from the Kennedy assassination.  They are linked.  A small factoid that may be of interest: It was what in 1970, after I thinkMoynihan's trip to Turkey to work on cutting down the opium supply through there that the Turkish premier broke the news that the Jupiter missiles in Turkey during the cuban missile crisis had been removed as part of a deal.  That revelation, that disclosure, would have been greenlit by Moynihan, I have no doubt.  

 

 

t

Edited May 27 by Matt Cloud

[Matt Cloud]

Just flipping through my copy of ATPM now, the most damning piece of info was that there were deliberate erasures on the tapes, from Woodward/DT meeting of early Nov. 73.  Again  -- Moynihan and Butterfield very close, also Georff Shepard, who did the "expletive deleted" for the transcripts.  Also I'm looking for the passage that says to the effect that Watergate had much more to do with the drug operation or something like that.  Will find it and post here.  The book by Edward Jay Epstein -- another of Moynihan's protege -- on the drug war, which they were working on together in many ways, is also highly relevant to "untangling the knot."

TIME interview with Woodward in 1976/5 he states "he [Deep Throat] has a career in government."  Felt was out by then, and in trouble.  That's not to exclude possibility of Woodward as ever possibly misdirecting but should be taken into consideration, withal.

 

[Cliff Varnell]

38 minutes ago, Matt Cloud said:

  I have no doubt that the "distinguished silver-haired gentleman" that he met in 1969 outside the WH situation Room while then still in the Navy was Moynihan.  Not the place for an FBI guy like Felt to be hanging around.  lus Felt didn't have silver hair then.  Moynihan did.  The Drug Operation, involving Krogh, Liddy and Hunt, was also a NATO operation and the kind of thing that would be discussed in the situation room.   

Thanks for your reply, Matt.  This is a more involved project than I'm able to pursue right now.  Good luck in your research.

I suggest you clean up the above, however.

[Matt Cloud]

3 minutes ago, Cliff Varnell said:

Thanks for your reply, Matt.  This is a more involved project than I'm able to pursue right now.  Good luck in your research.

I suggest you clean up the above, however.

https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=60f5b356054dd9ee&sca_upv=1&rlz=1C5CHFA_enUS775US775&sxsrf=ADLYWILVPTYM7XWF4paPXgoL9PDvHoiAnQ:1716852500794&q="Moynihan"+Nixon&uds=ADvngMgoxBifNZSFCILBf-jevBfUPsg_yN5l45myr5CULJuFMGu8Gl-82olChWynthPTMIH5Ad5mIcqZo6GGCGNs8AvmVx5Wm1MrkAcd4jOmhZ_i11T4YNugvL0mEA9F6G-S1Fs8b9-LgTTiXxb_tsIg1V08QMjfnMGs2rMnkqVjPZCpIw0CAw7DuQ_ngri8p6CZd8xbnrHrns2d5rii7j-rVEqMZYsEEU4gzcFkKm97hjEV1uPP2HCAPvS9entZ8FJ5b_8qxzbrRvhvY8nBbbSiiIpSIpdFleBHUpA4WRCHpZoj0R8vwTBgKKWPkEUfi1RGxHdFGAPmAc6ANiQCVHayEQs76Yo4pg&udm=2&prmd=invsmbtz&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiE4sP7_a6GAxViGFkFHc-RBzoQtKgLegQIFBAB&biw=1680&bih=943&dpr=1#vhid=Lg9nVPk5rLId0M&vssid=mosaic

 

[Matt Cloud]

2 minutes ago, Matt Cloud said:

https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=60f5b356054dd9ee&sca_upv=1&rlz=1C5CHFA_enUS775US775&sxsrf=ADLYWILVPTYM7XWF4paPXgoL9PDvHoiAnQ:1716852500794&q="Moynihan"+Nixon&uds=ADvngMgoxBifNZSFCILBf-jevBfUPsg_yN5l45myr5CULJuFMGu8Gl-82olChWynthPTMIH5Ad5mIcqZo6GGCGNs8AvmVx5Wm1MrkAcd4jOmhZ_i11T4YNugvL0mEA9F6G-S1Fs8b9-LgTTiXxb_tsIg1V08QMjfnMGs2rMnkqVjPZCpIw0CAw7DuQ_ngri8p6CZd8xbnrHrns2d5rii7j-rVEqMZYsEEU4gzcFkKm97hjEV1uPP2HCAPvS9entZ8FJ5b_8qxzbrRvhvY8nBbbSiiIpSIpdFleBHUpA4WRCHpZoj0R8vwTBgKKWPkEUfi1RGxHdFGAPmAc6ANiQCVHayEQs76Yo4pg&udm=2&prmd=invsmbtz&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiE4sP7_a6GAxViGFkFHc-RBzoQtKgLegQIFBAB&biw=1680&bih=943&dpr=1#vhid=Lg9nVPk5rLId0M&vssid=mosaic

 

Or is it you don't think he was "distinguished-looking"? 

 

Here, color-photos better.  Plus, hairs have been known to turn silver during WH employment.  Fast.  Especially with Nixon no doubt.

 

https://www.google.com/imgres?q="Moynihan" Nixon&imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fimage.pbs.org%2Fvideo-assets%2F57yLO26-asset-mezzanine-16x9-bVQ32oa.jpg&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.pbs.org%2Fwnet%2Famericanmasters%2Fmoynihan-on-working-with-nixon-across-party-lines-clsjhu%2F31830%2F&docid=3qLaYV-Acw0pTM&tbnid=jbS6ra_i4Bd57M&vet=12ahUKEwiPy4D-_a6GAxX-FlkFHYdvBtIQM3oECFwQAA..i&w=1920&h=1080&hcb=2&ved=2ahUKEwiPy4D-_a6GAxX-FlkFHYdvBtIQM3oECFwQAA

Edited May 27 by Matt Cloud

[Matt Cloud]

4 minutes ago, Matt Cloud said:

Or is it you don't think he was "distinguished-looking"? 

 

Here, color-photos better.  Plus, hairs have been known to turn silver during WH employment.  Fast.  Especially with Nixon no doubt.

 

https://www.google.com/imgres?q="Moynihan" Nixon&imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fimage.pbs.org%2Fvideo-assets%2F57yLO26-asset-mezzanine-16x9-bVQ32oa.jpg&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.pbs.org%2Fwnet%2Famericanmasters%2Fmoynihan-on-working-with-nixon-across-party-lines-clsjhu%2F31830%2F&docid=3qLaYV-Acw0pTM&tbnid=jbS6ra_i4Bd57M&vet=12ahUKEwiPy4D-_a6GAxX-FlkFHYdvBtIQM3oECFwQAA..i&w=1920&h=1080&hcb=2&ved=2ahUKEwiPy4D-_a6GAxX-FlkFHYdvBtIQM3oECFwQAA

https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fs.wsj.net%2Fpublic%2Fresources%2Fimages%2FB3-CD678_MOYNIH_C_20181024161518.jpg&tbnid=6ThkQybQ7DdGnM&vet=10CAQQxiAoAGoXChMI6OryhP6uhgMVAAAAAB0AAAAAEBY..i&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.wsj.com%2Farticles%2Fthe-odd-couple-nixon-and-moynihan-1540479048&docid=nk9RAW2AGum5JM&w=167&h=94&itg=1&q="Moynihan" Nixon&ved=0CAQQxiAoAGoXChMI6OryhP6uhgMVAAAAAB0AAAAAEBY#imgrc=6ThkQybQ7DdGnM&imgdii=Lg9nVPk5rLId0M

 

It was my job to know the man, and his career, inside and out.  And my research is finished.  I'm just helping you out.

[Kirk Gallaway]

On 5/26/2024 at 11:58 PM, Sandy Larsen said:

 

I was surprised when Matt said Moynihan was Deep Throat. And especially when you said he might be.

We all know that Mark Felt admitted to being Deep Throat decades ago. And not only that, but that Woodward and Bernstein both confirmed the identification.

I don't know how you guys get around that.

 

 

Too bad Sandy didn't follow up on this, but he is going against the weight of conspiracy superstar authors!

Isn't this sort of a "dozens" game between JFKA researchers pimping their composite list to outdo each other on their"inside track?"

 

 "Oh Sandy, how naive you are to think it was Felt. It's much bigger than that! If you only knew what I know, there's no way Woodward would reveal his true source because that  would truly be the "Unspeakable!"."

 

I'm not saying it couldn't possibly be a composite but

 

Jim's composite  list is now up to 4 and counting! Jim believes in giving himself lots of choices and covering all the bases.

 

Re: Moynihan I'm sure if Woodward had divulged that General Alexander Haig  was deep throat when he died, That wouldn't have even moved the needle  but if Woodward had divulged that Daniel Patrick Moynihan was deep throat. I just can't see how the nation could have  survived that!

So they waited 15 years to pin it on Felt.

 

pffffffff!

 

 

 

Cloud to Di Eugenio:

"That's why it's a secret, This is so utterly superficial by you.  Are you analysts or what?

"You'll have to dig deeper!        

Follow the money!

 

 Matt obviously has delusions of being the the modern day Deep Throat,    (or Hal Holbrook?)

Well, to each his own, but no thanks!

 

 

 

heh heh heh

 

[Matt Cloud]

26 minutes ago, Kirk Gallaway said:

 

Too bad Sandy didn't follow up on this, but he is going against the weight of conspiracy superstar authors!

Isn't this sort of a "dozens" game between JFKA researchers pimping their composite list to outdo each other on their"inside track?"

 

 "Oh Sandy, how naive you are to think it was Felt. It's much bigger than that! If you only knew what I know, there's no way Woodward would reveal his true source because that  would truly be the "Unspeakable!"."

 

I'm not saying it couldn't possibly be a composite but

 

Jim's composite  list is now up to 4 and counting! Jim believes in giving himself lots of choices and covering all the bases.

 

Re: Moynihan I'm sure if Woodward had divulged that General Alexander Haig  was deep throat when he died, That wouldn't have even moved the needle  but if Woodward had divulged that Daniel Patrick Moynihan was deep throat. I just can't see how the nation could have  survived that!

So they waited 15 years to pin it on Felt.

 

pffffffff!

 

 

 

Cloud to Di Eugenio:

"That's why it's a secret, This is so utterly superficial by you.  Are you analysts or what?

"You'll have to dig deeper!        

Follow the money!

 

 Matt obviously has delusions of being the the modern day Deep Throat,    (or Hal Holbrook?)

Well, to each his own, but no thanks!

 

 

 

heh heh heh

 

Wait I thought Haig suspected Moynihan, or at least Helms told Haig to "watch Moynihan."  Or was he just deflecting, or figuring out how much Nixon already suspected?  In any case, Nixon wouldn't hear of it.  That could be significant.

 

Haig said to Nixon that Helms said to Haig, "Watch Moynihan?!" (At about 47:39.)

 

https://www.nixonlibrary.gov/white-house-tapes/923/conversation-923-005

[Cliff Varnell]

On 5/27/2024 at 3:43 PM, Matt Cloud said:

 It's a big story -- and it's not separate from the Kennedy assassination.  They are linked.  A small factoid that may be of interest: It was what in 1970, after I thinkMoynihan's trip to Turkey to work on cutting down the opium supply through there that the Turkish premier broke the news that the Jupiter missiles in Turkey during the cuban missile crisis had been removed as part of a deal.  That revelation, that disclosure, would have been greenlit by Moynihan, I have no doubt.

So Moynihan helped take down the Corsican Mafia?  What was his role?

On 5/27/2024 at 3:43 PM, Matt Cloud said:

[Maatt's subsequent post.]

 Just flipping through my copy of ATPM now, the most damning piece of info was that there were deliberate erasures on the tapes, from Woodward/DT meeting of early Nov. 73.  Again  -- Moynihan and Butterfield very close, also Georff Shepard, who did the "expletive deleted" for the transcripts.  Also I'm looking for the passage that says to the effect that Watergate had much more to do with the drug operation or something like that.  Will find it and post here.  The book by Edward Jay Epstein -- another of Moynihan's protege -- on the drug war, which they were working on together in many ways, is also highly relevant to "untangling the knot."

TIME interview with Woodward in 1976/5 he states "he [Deep Throat] has a career in government."  Felt was out by then, and in trouble.  That's not to exclude possibility of Woodward as ever possibly misdirecting but should be taken into consideration, withal.

I suspect the downfall of the French Connection in the early 70's was engineered by traffickers out of the Golden Triangle, a cabal headed by Averell Harriman.  When the Golden Triangle got squeezed by Communist takeover of SE Asia -- Hello Afghanistan!

 

[Ron Bulman]

17 minutes ago, Cliff Varnell said:

So Moynihan helped take down the Corsican Mafia?  What was his role?

I suspect the downfall of the French Connection in the early 70's was engineered by traffickers out of the Golden Triangle, a cabal headed by Averell Harriman.  When the Golden Triangle got squeezed by Communist takeover of SE Asia -- Hello Afghanistan!

 

Is this where Poppy Bush got his nickname?

[Ron Bulman]

Oops.  Double post.  Didn't realize I'd done that.