Hancock, DiEugenio and Bleau interview

[David Boylan]

On 5/28/2024 at 11:11 PM, Matt Allison said:

Hi Matt,

I think the top photo is pretty old. Do you have a date for that? Also, I've seen but don't have some photos where Emilio looks more like the court appearance guy.

I also remember seeing a Harold Weisberg doc that has Emilio's name listed but I can't seem to "re-find" it.

Edited May 30 by David Boylan

[David Boylan]

On 5/28/2024 at 12:38 PM, Tom Gram said:

Arnesto was also one of three people on the secret military committee of the New Orleans CRC, and possibly one of two by ‘63 since according to Arnesto, one of the other guys Manuel Blanco, who Arnesto described multiple times as a CIA agent, had a “mental breakdown” or something like that towards the end of ‘62. Blanco also worked with Bringuer on propaganda. I’m not sure about the other guy Ernesto Bascuas: 

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=84947#relPageId=4

Oswald certainly tracked down the right man…

Thanks Tom. He was indeed working the military side in 1962. Here's some Arnesto quotes:

[Ron Bulman]

13 hours ago, Larry Hancock said:

Ron, about all I can do is suggest suggest you read In Denial if you want a full understanding of the Cuba Project, the Bay of Pigs and Barnes role in both - in that project he was put in a very unique role, and in a strange situation that crossed a presidential transition.  That made oversight extremely complex as did what was a virtually unique organizational structure for the whole thing - which along with Barnes was the subject of the entire project along with Barnes.  The IG report was also quite an indictment of both King and Dulles for that matter - which I suspect is why Barnes was allowed to write his own rebuttal to it, a very unusual practice in itself. Unfortunately Barnes had the reach and support to market his version to the media, which was one of the reasons JFK ended up being so roundly blamed for failures that had been occuring months before he ever took office.

I just ordered In Denial, not just for Barnes of course though I could see him coming up also in relation to Guatemala/PBSUCCESS.  After Nexus and Tipping Point it surprised me at 482 pages, it's almost as long as SWHT.  Which contributed to the purchase.  Lots of detail and it's about to get hot here.  I stay in the house pretty much all but the early mornings when it gets into the 90's-100's anymore.  Good books help with the cabin fever.  Which is why I bundled it with Cyril Wecht's The JFK Assassination Dissected for free shipping.

[Ron Bulman]

On 5/26/2024 at 9:55 PM, Ron Bulman said:

I'd read Bissell had created Z R Rifle then it was delegated to Harvey, maybe that Harvey had asked Angleton for advice.  I didn't know Angleton bonded with Harvey, liked his ideas, lent him assistance as in contacts in Cuba, materials.  That this led to a rest of Harvey's life correspondence with Angleton, in his last month's mentioning "things that only we can talk about."  Then there was a failed break in after Harvey died to "steal his files" but his wife gave them to his biographer (Bayard Stockton, Flawed Patriot?*).  Angleton was known for breaking into Mary Meyer's studio in search of her diary, and, flying to Mexico immediately when Win Scott died to raid his safe.

This part in conjunction with the part on Barnes kind of sent my head swirling regarding connections.  As mentioned, I didn't know about Harvey bonding with Angleton over ZR Rifle.  I got to thinking about connections.

Harvey banned to Rome over his comments to JFK/RFK about the Bay of Pigs, RFK wanted him fired.  Angleton in the OSS in WWII working in Italy (his father before him), the mafia helping turn the tide against the Nazi's there, then the ratlines run through there.  Harvey's notes, after consulting with Angleton (?), - nothing in writing-, no criminals with records, not Sicilians, but maybe Corsicans.  Harvey to Florida, April 1963, Dallas late November 1963.  Bill and James did have Italy in common in a sense by 1963.

Then there is Harvey running ZR Rifle while Barnes was running The Cuba Project.  Think they might have interacted?  Barnes, Angleton, Yale/Skull and Key, Harvard, different years but still?  Is something a little fishy here or just my imagination?

Tell me, tell me, tell me . . .

 

[Larry Hancock]

Ron, I think you will enjoy In Denial, its about covert operations in general although it delves most deeply into the Cuba Project of a prime example of why the cover operations model fails - but then is continually resurrected.  You will probably find it amusing that Dulles went on record that the CIA should be removed totally from covert military operations but that actually was a result of the inquiry after the BOP and of course JFK did agree and began doing that first in Vietnam and then was well on the way to taking it from the CIA in the Americas - particular in regard to Cuba - and giving it to the Joint Chiefs (and CINCATLANTIC) totally by the summer of 63.

On connections, I can say with certainty that Angleton and Harvey were still talking and close to each other before Harvey went off shore to Italy - Angleton did not really talk to many and for a few months Harvey had time on his hands. But of you want some equally interesting connections you might try Hecksher....SE Asia in Laos, then special assignment in the Golden Triangle, then back to the Cuba Project, into Mexico City on an assignment we totally do not understand but which may have involved Cubela (same time as Nagle talks about the mystery CIA guy who came and went), then back to the Cuba Project and on to AMWORLD which begins recruiting people like Carlos Hernandez and Felix Rodriquez.

  -- connections everywhere, the trick is the final connection to Dallas..

 

[Robert Morrow]

On 5/26/2024 at 9:55 PM, Ron Bulman said:

The discussion about the differences in Pathfinder (Carl Jenkins), Z R Rifle (Bissell > Harvey), both assassination schemes, and Northwoods (Lansdale) was enlightening to say the least. 

The JFK assassination itself was Operation Northwoods and Gen. Edward Lansdale was running it. Lyndon Johnson immediately resurrected Lansdale career and within 11 days of the JFK assassination Gen. Lansdale had a job in the Food for Peace program and an office in the Old Executive Office Building which is on White House grounds and the same building in which LBJ kept his Vice Presidential office. See Max Boot's autobiography on Lansdale.

Lansdale was furious at JFK for the death of Diem in Vietnam and for his own demotion. And he hated working under Robert Kennedy in Operation Mongoose.

[Allen Lowe]

On 5/30/2024 at 9:18 AM, Larry Hancock said:

Ron, I think you will enjoy In Denial, its about covert operations in general although it delves most deeply into the Cuba Project of a prime example of why the cover operations model fails - but then is continually resurrected.  You will probably find it amusing that Dulles went on record that the CIA should be removed totally from covert military operations but that actually was a result of the inquiry after the BOP and of course JFK did agree and began doing that first in Vietnam and then was well on the way to taking it from the CIA in the Americas - particular in regard to Cuba - and giving it to the Joint Chiefs (and CINCATLANTIC) totally by the summer of 63.

On connections, I can say with certainty that Angleton and Harvey were still talking and close to each other before Harvey went off shore to Italy - Angleton did not really talk to many and for a few months Harvey had time on his hands. But of you want some equally interesting connections you might try Hecksher....SE Asia in Laos, then special assignment in the Golden Triangle, then back to the Cuba Project, into Mexico City on an assignment we totally do not understand but which may have involved Cubela (same time as Nagle talks about the mystery CIA guy who came and went), then back to the Cuba Project and on to AMWORLD which begins recruiting people like Carlos Hernandez and Felix Rodriquez.

  -- connections everywhere, the trick is the final connection to Dallas..

 

Larry, not to digress here, but I have lived in New Haven CT off and on for almost 50 years, and was amazed to find out that when  Kingman Brewster was the president of Yale his chief assistant was - yes, Tracy Barnes. Barnes was in the middle of the Bobby Seale trial situation, and was, interestingly enough, one of the local people most trusted in negotiations with the Black Panthers. I have always thought someone should examine his role in these events more closely, given what were undoubtedly his continued government connections and the highly politicized atmosphere into which he was thrown. I would be very surprised if he was not reporting back to the CIA/FBI et al.

[Larry Hancock]

You have a very good point Allen and I've personally not done any work that at all going past his involvement with the restructuring of Domestic Ops beginning in 63 which David Boylan has written about.  Given his egregious failures he mush have had one or more senior level champions at CIA and I would not be surprised to find it linked to Angleton and MH/CHAOS. 

Who was he doing liaison for in terms of the Black Panthers - given his disasterous liaison work on the Cuba Project I would not have expected that to work out well - which clearly it did not.

If somebody carries that on one of the most important questions would be who remained his champion inside the CIA for the rest of his career and who were his 'angels' in public circles?

 

 

[Paul Brancato]

2 hours ago, Allen Lowe said:

Larry, not to digress here, but I have lived in New Haven CT off and on for almost 50 years, and was amazed to find out that when  Kingman Brewster was the president of Yale his chief assistant was - yes, Tracy Barnes. Barnes was in the middle of the Bobby Seale trial situation, and was, interestingly enough, one of the local people most trusted in negotiations with the Black Panthers. I have always thought someone should examine his role in these events more closely, given what were undoubtedly his continued government connections and the highly politicized atmosphere into which he was thrown. I would be very surprised if he was not reporting back to the CIA/FBI et al.

Were you aware that Barnes and Bissell were involved with American First at Yale in 1940?

[Allen Lowe]

23 minutes ago, Paul Brancato said:

Were you aware that Barnes and Bissell were involved with American First at Yale in 1940?

I was not. Wow.

[Allen Lowe]

2 hours ago, Larry Hancock said:

You have a very good point Allen and I've personally not done any work that at all going past his involvement with the restructuring of Domestic Ops beginning in 63 which David Boylan has written about.  Given his egregious failures he mush have had one or more senior level champions at CIA and I would not be surprised to find it linked to Angleton and MH/CHAOS. 

Who was he doing liaison for in terms of the Black Panthers - given his disasterous liaison work on the Cuba Project I would not have expected that to work out well - which clearly it did not.

If somebody carries that on one of the most important questions would be who remained his champion inside the CIA for the rest of his career and who were his 'angels' in public circles?

 

 

His liason with the Panthers was related, AFIK, supposedly, to Yale's community efforts to mediate events at that time; it was a very dangerous time, a lot of potential violence, large demonstrations, not to mention the torture and murder of a guy named Rackley who the Panthers thought was a informant. 

[Paul Cummings]

Welcome back Allen.

[Paul Brancato]

I was not previously aware that Richard Helms fired Barnes in 1966. Is there a backstory? 
 

[Chuck Schwartz]

Paul, LBJ appointed Helms DCI in 1966.  Shortly after that appointment , Helms had Des Fitzgerald fire Barnes, who had tried to get Helms kicked out of the CIA by going to Dulles. It did not work and Barnes was out as soon as LBJ appointed Helms DCI in 1966- see page 502 in "Coup in Dallas" ( it is in the essay by Alan Kent at the end of the aforementioned book).

[Paul Brancato]

1 hour ago, Chuck Schwartz said:

Paul, LBJ appointed Helms DCI in 1966.  Shortly after that appointment , Helms had Des Fitzgerald fire Barnes, who had tried to get Helms kicked out of the CIA by going to Dulles. It did not work and Barnes was out as soon as LBJ appointed Helms DCI in 1966- see page 502 in "Coup in Dallas" ( it is in the essay by Alan Kent at the end of the aforementioned book).

I read that essay but forgot that.