Matt Allison Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 There seems to be a refusal to recognize that if it's not Biden, it will be Harris. No Dem can be elected President without the full support of Black voters. Black folks are already pissed this issue is even being brought up because they are big Joe Biden fans. If you were to also remove Harris you would have black folks stay home rather than vote. They will not take that kind of insult. I respectfully submit that this issue seems to be being driven in the media by progressive intellectual white men that might not have a real good feel for the temperature and mood of folks outside their demographic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W. Niederhut Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 (edited) 32 minutes ago, Matt Allison said: There seems to be a refusal to recognize that if it's not Biden, it will be Harris. No Dem can be elected President without the full support of Black voters. Black folks are already pissed this issue is even being brought up because they are big Joe Biden fans. If you were to also remove Harris you would have black folks stay home rather than vote. They will not take that kind of insult. I respectfully submit that this issue seems to be being driven in the media by progressive intellectual white men that might not have a real good feel for the temperature and mood of folks outside their demographic. Matt, The truth is that the DNC establishment has disenfranchised the Progressive half of the Democratic Party for the past eight years. They did it in 2016, and again in 2020. Hillary and Biden were the Wall Street/MIC candidates. You're looking, somewhat myopically, at the black demographic, while ignoring the 50% Progressive demographic. Are minorities supposed to vote for Trump, if Democrats nominate a white candidate other than Biden? Kamala Harris was never the Progressive's choice in 2020. I watched all of those Democratic primary debates, and she ran a distant 5th or 6th-- behind Bernie, Elizabeth Warren, Buttigieg, and Biden-- before dropping out. It wasn't about race. It was about public policy and experience. Warren should have been the 2020 VP. She was the most qualified, and popular. But Wall Street feared her. Harris was Biden's establishment choice-- and Warren and the Progressives were, basically, disenfranchised. Now you're telling us that the choice of the 2024 nominee isn't up to us. It's up to Biden and the DNC establishment. But Joe Bauer is right. We the people should choose the most qualified candidate. In any case, Biden is insisting, today, that "No one is going to take away (his) car keys." It's vanity. Biden should have had the wisdom and humility to retire and turn the nomination process over to the people, and to a new generation of Democratic leaders, last year-- as I said at the time. And Biden and his inner circle shouldn't have misled us about his mental status. Edited July 3 by W. Niederhut Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Allison Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 1 hour ago, W. Niederhut said: Are minorities supposed to vote for Trump, if Democrats nominate a white candidate other than Biden? As I said above, blacks would stay home, instead of voting. Which would ensure a loss for the Dem ticket. 1 hour ago, W. Niederhut said: You're looking, somewhat myopically, at the black demographic, while ignoring the 50% Progressive demographic. Progressives do not make up 50% of the Democratic Party. And the evidence for that is the makeup of the Democrats that are currently serving in the House and Senate. 1 hour ago, W. Niederhut said: But Joe Bauer is right. We the people should choose the most qualified candidate. We just had a primary season, which Joe Biden handily won, with margins greater than Trump got in his primary contests. If Biden is examined and shown to be suffering from a condition, he should pass the baton and step down. If not, there's no way I'm going to advocate for the most qualified candidate to step down just because he's 81. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W. Niederhut Posted July 4 Share Posted July 4 2 hours ago, W. Niederhut said: WN: Are minorities supposed to vote for Trump, if Democrats nominate a white candidate other than Biden? MA: As I said above, blacks would stay home, instead of voting. Which would ensure a loss for the Dem ticket. WN: If black people want to vote for Donald Trump, or stay home, that would be unfortunate. Perhaps Obama can convince them that a second Trump presidency would be a disaster. 2 hours ago, W. Niederhut said: WN: You're looking, somewhat myopically, at the black demographic, while ignoring the 50% Progressive demographic. MA: Progressives do not make up 50% of the Democratic Party. And the evidence for that is the makeup of the Democrats that are currently serving in the House and Senate. Progressive Democrats narrowly lost the Democratic Presidential nominations in 2016 and 2020-- with DNC help. Hillary and Biden barely eked out those Democratic primary victories. The margins were close to 50-50-- even with Bernie and Elizabeth Warren splitting the Progressive vote in 2020. 2 hours ago, W. Niederhut said: But Joe Bauer is right. We the people should choose the most qualified candidate. MA: We just had a primary season, which Joe Biden handily won, with margins greater than Trump got in his primary contests. Biden ran unopposed in 2024-- and actively concealed evidence of his worsening senility. Did you watch the debate? Instead of smacking down Trump's redundant nonsense, Biden mumbled things like, "We beat Medicare." MA: If Biden is examined and shown to be suffering from a condition, he should pass the baton and step down. If not, there's no way I'm going to advocate for the most qualified candidate to step down just because he's 81. WN: Great. Let's get a thorough neurological assessment. Will Joe & Jill cooperate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirk Gallaway Posted July 4 Share Posted July 4 (edited) i was also arguing that Biden should step down a year ago. But Matt is right that progressives are only about a third of the Democrats and actually Harris was good choice for Biden in that Biden did handily win. But there are paths for Dems to win without having a black VP. Who heads the ticket has an effect on who the VP should be. They should try to balance the ticket. In the battleground States, Whitmer is more progressive than Shapiro. Shapiro could be an excellent choice for VP. If you have Newsome or Whitmer heading the ticket, the natural choice would be to go to the center with Shapiro. The irony is the best hope progressives have would be for a Presidential candidate, because any balancing of the ticket using a progressive as a VP would mean a Presidential candidate so far to the right, it would almost be unacceptable to them. There could be an exception with Newsome Whitmer, if Whitmer is a Michigan blue collar progressive, but I don't know enough about her. I can speak with some experience about Newsome. The NE liberal podcasters have a disdain for Newsome except maybe Pakman. I'm not sure why. Newsome knows there are a lot of international jet set rich people who like the status of having a home in California, so he taxes the hell of them, which I approve of, knowing they can afford it and though they'll complain, they are not leaving. He represents the big government crowd, is very pro consumer and pro expansion of healthcare, but his biggest problem is the homeless which he has thrown a billion or more at to no avail, as well as affordable housing. He's very lucid and could kill Trump in a debate, but I'm not sure there's going to be a debate anymore. He's a dashing young generational voice in the Dem spirit of JFK, Clinton and Obama.. Image wise, he has a lot of the same California perception baggage as Harris sort of an unbridled liberal optimism that no problem can't be fought that most of the rest of the nation just doesn't like. A lot of the Republican never Trumpers, who are a brave lot, don't like the idea of Newsome or Harris being President. In any Newsome candidacy he would immediately start talking like a centrist. ******* Both Biden and Trump should have submitted to a physical and neurological examination by neutral Doctors. Soon, you'll throw down your disguise. We'll see behind those bright -- eyes. By and By , when the sidewalks are safe. For the little guy. D.F. from S.D. Edited July 4 by Kirk Gallaway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W. Niederhut Posted July 4 Share Posted July 4 Kirk, Here are some 2020 Democratic primary tallies. The final bandwagon/delegate tallies don't reflect the pre-Bloomberg/pre-Super Tuesday dominance of the Progressives. If you recall, the Progressives crushed Biden in the early primaries. Biden later did well in the Southern GOP states, then there was a bandwagon effect for Biden after Super Tuesday. Iowa: Bernie 26% Buttigieg 25% Warren 20% Biden 14% Progressives 71% Biden 14% New Hampshire: Bernie 26% Buttigieg 24% Warren 9% Biden 8% Progressives 59% Biden 8% Nevada: Bernie 40% Buttigieg 17% Warren 12% Biden 19% Progressives 69% Biden 19% California: Bernie 36% Warren 13% Biden 28% Progressives 49% Biden 28% Colorado: Bernie 37% Warren 18% Biden 25% Progressives 55% Biden 25% Maine: Bernie 32% Warren 16% Biden 33% Progressives 48% Biden 33% Massachusetts: Bernie 27% Warren 21% Biden 33% Progressives 48% Biden 33% Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirk Gallaway Posted July 4 Share Posted July 4 (edited) No, I remember that well. I was in Ecuador and I woke up, turned on the tube, and I saw the CNN panel relieved at the results of Super Tuesday and I was pissed! That's why I hate picking this apart. You've made a good case for half, but.... 1)Only Bernie and Warren are progressives. Not Butigieg, Iowa is 46%', NH 35%, Nevada 52%,( What's happened to Biden in Nevada now?) but I digress. 2)These are not representative states of the nation as a whole. There's not a battleground state here except puny Nevada.Almost half the states are New England states where Bernie VT. and Warren Mass, come from. These are the classic progressive states the Dems can almost always count on in the general election. Because where else would they go? 3)The wonkiest votes are in the primary. There are a much higher percentage of progressives voting in primaries, than in the general election. It's the moderates they are trying to score in the general election. 4)Outside of Iowa, Biden ended up winning all these states. The Democrats knew they had all those states in the bag anyway. 5.) It was the other 20%, Klobuchar, and Buttigieg,and who else folded when they knew it was hopeless? They represent the key votes the Democratic Party was going after. Being centrists Buttigieg and Klobuchar would have preferred Biden, but they both thought Biden had the best chance anyway. As I recall, didn't Warren also fold that night? They always knew they had that in the bag and took it for granted. It's a numbers game. That's why Bernie didn't really raise a stink when they lowered the boom on him. I'd like to see all the primary totals at the end. Definitely impressed with Colorado! Edited July 4 by Kirk Gallaway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Allison Posted July 4 Share Posted July 4 Anyone that wonders how things would go for a female Presidential candidate need only look back to Hillary in 2016. Sadly, when it comes to the average white guy vote, very little has changed since then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Bauer Posted July 4 Share Posted July 4 (edited) You'll remember that Warren and Bernie were eating Biden up in the 2020 primary debates. High energy, passion, clear speaking with much more specific agendas. Biden did just awful. Low energy, much less specific policy plans, etc. Warren and Bernie combined were just killing Biden in those debates. Their combined poll numbers were two times higher than Biden. That's when Bloomberg jumped in and spent 1 BILLION dollars for a two and 1/2 month long primary campaign run. 1 BILLION was a crazy high record amount by any primary candidate ever... and again, he just stayed in the race for 2 and 1/2 months? It didn't make sense. The most votes Bloomberg got was 10% in any race. I believe Bloomberg got in to help takes votes from Warren and Sanders. He considered them bigger threats to Wall Street. As soon as Warren and Sanders were numerically eliminated from the race...Bloomberg dropped his campaign. Biden was no threat to Wall Street and Donald Trump was no threat to Wall Street either. And I also believe that certain large black vote states made a deal with Biden. You give us a black woman vice president and we'll swing our voters to you. That's exactly what they did. Warren and Sanders got whacked out of the park by those states and on Super Tuesday. I don't think Warren and Sanders were rejected by less progressive Democrats because they had been labeled as such. Heck, what you are saying is that the Democratic party majority doesn't like progressives? I believe the Democratic party has always been more progressive than Centrist. Progressivism is the true heart of the Democratic party imo. If it isn't...they aren't much different ideologically than the Republicans who equate progressives on the same level as commies and queers. Biden has always been much more a Wall Street person than not. They consider him one of theirs imo. Bloomberg was happy when Biden got the nomination. I never recalled Biden saying anything negative or taking on Wall Street as Warren and Sanders did and still do. Edited July 5 by Joe Bauer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fite Posted July 4 Share Posted July 4 10 hours ago, Matt Allison said: Do you think that kind of circus, "we're not organized or united" type of behavior inspires confidence among swing voters? Undecideds and conservatives looking for a reason to vote Dem? IMO it does not. The collage of the BS headlines from 2016 about Hillary is meant to show you can't always trust the media's motives. Hillary's health was and is perfectly fine, and the only thing that bedwetting accomplished was to hurt her candidacy. The nomination of Hillary Clinton for president gave undecideds and swing voters enough reason not to vote D. She was an awful candidate. That the Democratic Party was blind and still blind to it is their problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fite Posted July 4 Share Posted July 4 3 hours ago, W. Niederhut said: Kirk, Here are some 2020 Democratic primary tallies. The final bandwagon/delegate tallies don't reflect the pre-Bloomberg/pre-Super Tuesday dominance of the Progressives. If you recall, the Progressives crushed Biden in the early primaries. Biden later did well in the Southern GOP states, then there was a bandwagon effect for Biden after Super Tuesday. Iowa: Bernie 26% Buttigieg 25% Warren 20% Biden 14% Progressives 71% Biden 14% New Hampshire: Bernie 26% Buttigieg 24% Warren 9% Biden 8% Progressives 59% Biden 8% Nevada: Bernie 40% Buttigieg 17% Warren 12% Biden 19% Progressives 69% Biden 19% California: Bernie 36% Warren 13% Biden 28% Progressives 49% Biden 28% Colorado: Bernie 37% Warren 18% Biden 25% Progressives 55% Biden 25% Maine: Bernie 32% Warren 16% Biden 33% Progressives 48% Biden 33% Massachusetts: Bernie 27% Warren 21% Biden 33% Progressives 48% Biden 33% +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Allison Posted July 4 Share Posted July 4 2 minutes ago, Bill Fite said: She was an awful candidate. Hillary Clinton was far and away the most qualified person to run for President that year. She was right about everything she said during that campaign, and history has proven such. Misogyny is real and a cancer all over the world, and the U.S. is no exception. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fite Posted July 4 Share Posted July 4 30 minutes ago, Matt Allison said: Hillary Clinton was far and away the most qualified person to run for President that year. She was right about everything she said during that campaign, and history has proven such. Misogyny is real and a cancer all over the world, and the U.S. is no exception. Misogyny might be real - but that doesn't change the fact that she was such an awful candidate and an inept campaigner that she lost to Donald Trump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandy Larsen Posted July 4 Share Posted July 4 25 minutes ago, Matt Allison said: Hillary Clinton was far and away the most qualified person to run for President that year. Yep, and she would have won had it not been for Comey's October Surprise, in spite of American misogyny. She won the popular vote by 3 million, didn't she? As much as I like Bernie Sanders, there's no way I would vote for him in a primary. Too many Americans are afraid of socialism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandy Larsen Posted July 4 Share Posted July 4 2 minutes ago, Bill Fite said: Misogyny might be real - but that doesn't change the fact that she was such an awful candidate and an inept campaigner that she lost to Donald Trump. I thought she was a great candidate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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