The Hidell ID: what is the current timeline and did anyone else use it?

[Martin Nee]

Hi everyone I’m trying to get a some better information on the current state of the evidence around the Hidell ID and it’s use.

Given how central it is to the case against Oswald and that it was allegedly used to order the weapons I’d really appreciate if experts in the field like @Larry Hancock etc could weigh in with info/links to the following:

- when does the Hidell ID first appear and what are it’s believed origins?

- Marinas testimony has issues, but is she more consistent/believable on the Hidell ID and Oswald’s use of it and her having to write it?

- who else knew about the Hidell ID in 1963? I know there was apparently a military intelligence file on Hidell and Oswald that was destroyed. I’ve also seen a flight plan I believe from David Ferrie discovered by the HSCA that has the name on it. Is this legitimate and what is the source? 

- Is there any credible evidence or leads of anyone besides Oswald using the Hidell ID? 

- what is the current accepted timeline of when the Dallas Police, Secret Service, and FBI became aware of the Hidell ID? 
 

- what confirmed statements of Oswald do we have about the Hidell alias and what are the current most credible theories of what Oswald himself thought of and was doing with the alias?

[Jean Ceulemans]

I´ll leave it to the experts such as @Tom Gram who has written a very good essay on the PO boxes that I feel you should take in consideration, it shows a very detailed timeline. 

Now, all your questions would take a book to answer, as there is very little generally accepted on the subject, some say the ID was faked by intell (with the help of ...), some say Oswald created it, you have the ones believing Nagell had to do with it, etcc

 

[Bill Fite]

Quote

Other parallels between Nagell and Oswald would continue to emerge over the years:[487]Nagell married a Japanese woman; Oswald later had an affair in Dallas with a Japanese woman. Both used the alias Hidell/Hidel. Both had connections with the Fair Play for Cuba Committee in the United States.

Twyman, Noel H.. Bloody Treason: The Assassination of John F. Kennedy . Laurel Publishing. Kindle Edition. 

[Pete Mellor]

7 hours ago, Martin Nee said:

when does the Hidell ID first appear and what are it’s believed origins?

According to the hallowed W.C. volumes:-(Vol. V11 227-232.) And it came to pass Det. Guy Rose reported to City Hall around 14:00.  Shortly after, Oswald was brought into the Homicide & Robbery office.  Rose with Det. Stovall, who also was off duty that morning, reported in to City Hall at roughly the same time as Rose.  When questioned for his name, Oswald wouldn't tell.  As the parable of the patsy relates, Rose was handed Lee's wallet with the two i.d. cards with names Oswald & Hidell.  When asked which was his, Oswald remarked something like, "You're the cop, you find out."  Rose's testimony states that Oswald finally told him his name was Hidell.

The short interview was broken off when Cpt., Fritz sent Stovall, Rose & Adamcik to 2515 West Fifth St., in Irving.

Edited September 4 by Pete Mellor

[Jean Ceulemans]

1 hour ago, Pete Mellor said:

According to the hallowed W.C. volumes:-(Vol. V11 227-232.) And it came to pass Det. Guy Rose reported to City Hall around 14:00.  Shortly after, Oswald was brought into the Homicide & Robbery office.  Rose with Det. Stovall, who also was off duty that morning, reported in to City Hall at roughly the same time as Rose.  When questioned for his name, Oswald wouldn't tell.  As the parable of the patsy relates, Rose was handed Lee's wallet with the two i.d. cards with names Oswald & Hidell.  When asked which was his, Oswald remarked something like, "You're the cop, you find out."  Rose's testimony states that Oswald finally told him his name was Hidell.

The short interview was broken off when Cpt., Fritz sent Stovall, Rose & Adamcik to 2515 West Fifth St., in Irving.

I would add the FBI (August 10, Quigley) questioning Oswald (at his own request) in New-Orleans where the name/person of A. Hidell was talked about as it appeared on a FPCC membership card, etc. 

And the Postal doc´s (PO boxes) prior to that.

Edited September 4 by Jean Ceulemans

[Jean Ceulemans]

And the infamous DR AJ HIDEEL vaccination card with the "brush in can" stamp 😀 btw: they still sell those

Edited September 4 by Jean Ceulemans

[Martin Nee]

6 minutes ago, Jean Ceulemans said:

And the infamous DR AJ HIDEEL vaccination card with the "brush in can" stamp 😀 btw: they still sell those

Fascinating, I have never seen this before. Is the story behind this that Oswald faked a small pox vaccination card himself, or am I misreading it? If so was this for any purpose or just to see if he could?

[Jean Ceulemans]

1 hour ago, Martin Nee said:

Fascinating, I have never seen this before. Is the story behind this that Oswald faked a small pox vaccination card himself, or am I misreading it? If so was this for any purpose or just to see if he could?

Oswald needed it for his trip to Mexico I believe.

Now it is something to think about.

In N-O in august he was questioned by the FBI about who this guy A. Hidell from the FPCC was.  Oswald pretty much refused to answer direct questions about Hidell, he had contact with him by telephone, but didn´t have the number etccc (Quigley WC testimony and the august 10 report).

Only weeks later, when he went to Mexico (well, if he went..), we have this card with Dr. AJ Hideel... 

Combine that stuff with the PO boxes linked to Hidell, the rifle order, etccc

Who was kidding who...

If Oswald really did all of this, it does say something about his character, and his feeling for humor in a way.... 

He didn´t talk about it officially, but I can see him saying like "you guys figure it out..".

It´s not really high tech spy stuff is it...

I hope @Larry Hancock can fill in on this.

 

 

 

 

Edited September 4 by Jean Ceulemans

[Larry Hancock]

Jean, the book will discuss the Hidell name at some length and offer some observations on when it was used for what purpose - it was even used on a job application in New Orleans. 

I don't pretend to be able to resolve all these mysteries and certainly all the debate will continue without or without my observations..grin.

But the use of 'Hidell' will certainly not be ignored in the book, that's for sure. 

[Jean Ceulemans]

1 hour ago, Larry Hancock said:

Jean, the book will discuss the Hidell name at some length and offer some observations on when it was used for what purpose - it was even used on a job application in New Orleans. 

I don't pretend to be able to resolve all these mysteries and certainly all the debate will continue without or without my observations..grin.

But the use of 'Hidell' will certainly not be ignored in the book, that's for sure. 

Thank you, looking forward to the book.  IMO most of the mysteries will stay forever. The only one that could fill in some of the blanks is Marina, but from early on she wasn´t very eager to talk (unless they showed here something, like the Walker note). Now, I do feel there is a lot that even Marina would´t know.

[Steve Thomas]

Oswald freely admitted to possessing the Hidell card, but either denied, or refused to admit that the signature on the card was his.

I have yet to figure that one out.

Steve Thomas

[Kevin Balch]

What kind of intelligence operative carries both his real and false identities with him?

1) An incompetent one.
2) Someone anticipating the possibility of being searched and intending some kind of diversion.
3) Someone who did not expect to be searched and just used it for specific tasks like picking up mail from PO Box etc.
4) It was planted.

[Martin Nee]

11 hours ago, Larry Hancock said:

Jean, the book will discuss the Hidell name at some length and offer some observations on when it was used for what purpose - it was even used on a job application in New Orleans. 

I don't pretend to be able to resolve all these mysteries and certainly all the debate will continue without or without my observations..grin.

But the use of 'Hidell' will certainly not be ignored in the book, that's for sure. 

Im also very much looking forward to the book. 

I’m just trying to work out who knew about the Hidell ID besides Oswald in 1963 and its ties to him. 

so far that would be The FBI, The post office in New Orleans (which may have had informants), Military intelligence (per their admission on having a file on Hidell), and probably Marina (if her testimony is trustworthy) 

@Larry Hancock Am I missing anyone and do you currently think the Nagel claim of using the ID and the Ferrie flight plan is credible? 
I know Fred Litwin may be biased but he does point out the flight plan seems to originate with a convicted forger, and no Hidell/Oswald ID seems to be listed among Nagel’s possessions in any report.

[Jean Ceulemans]

8 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

Oswald freely admitted to possessing the Hidell card, but either denied, or refused to admit that the signature on the card was his.

I have yet to figure that one out.

Steve Thomas

If Marina signed it (I think she admitted to signing at least once), LHO was technically correct in his answer

[Gil Jesus]

15 hours ago, Martin Nee said:

Fascinating, I have never seen this before. Is the story behind this that Oswald faked a small pox vaccination card himself, or am I misreading it? If so was this for any purpose or just to see if he could?

Anyone travelling internationally in 1963 had to have a certificate saying they were vaccinated against smallpox.