Chauncey Holt

[Wim Dankbaar]

Question to William Kelly:

A few months ago I was forwarded an interview transcript that starts with:

William E. Kelly Interview with Chauncey Marvin Holt , April 1992

Lemon Grove, California.

Below is a fragment. Do you still have the tapes of that interview?

Thanks,

Wim

You think Montoya and Harrelson were shooters?

Holt - No, because they got to the boxcar too soon. And there was too many other good shooters around. You know that were in Dallas at that time. We're talking about Seraphin, Orlando Bosch, Freddy Lugo, Luis Posada, .....plus you had these other types wandering around, that I don't know what they were doing. For instance, William Robertson. I know he was there. He was a long time spook. One of the legends in the business. And Tony Po, Postheny. They were like twins. He was there too.

Bosch was convicted for blowing up that airplane. He swore up and down that it was Lugo and Posada. That they were the actual bombers and set him up.

That's another thing we were running. We had this school, sort of a sideline, this club in Antelope Valley National Forest, and used to run rifle training. We had weapons we produced, very exotic types. Mostly we designed silencers, but we also made a lot of special silencers. Two stage silencers. One of the most interesting weapons we ever made was for a Cuban. He came in with an XP-100, a varmint rifle that shoots a 222, with a pistol grip, bolt operated for one shot. And this guy comes in and wanted us to replace the 222 barrel with a 14" version of the 243, which is really a rifle. So we had to start out getting the barrel made by somebody in Arizona. Then we replaced the one pistol grip with two pistol grips. It looked like a submachine gun and fitted it with a 8 power scope, a 3-9 variable scope, so he paid a lot of money for that gun.

But here you had a rifle that looked like a pistol and it was the ideal type gun if you were going to use it for an assassination like that. Since after all, we were within 20 yards of the shooting.

We made this gun in 1961 and the guy sold it back to me in the 70s. I never fired it, but there is a guy, a shooting instructor, a weapons expert, he did a lot of stuff for the CIA, all very legal, weapons evaluation of agency weapons. He had a Federal License. He took the gun out and shot it. And he's still alive.

[Ryan Crowe]

Wim,

Where is this Antelope Valley National Forest located?

[William Kelly]

Ryan First : Antelop Valley National Forest is located in Southeast California, part of the Mojave desert.

Wim: I have three cassette tapes of Holt. One is an audiotape of the videotape interview of Holt conducted at an airport - I think it is in Houston, Tex., with Gary Shaw and the guys who wrote Man on the Grassy Knowll. I transcribed that interview on a train enroute to California where I interviewed Holt for an additional two-three hours.

I also personally transcribed that tape, a copy of which is in your possession. You also posted one of the transcripts, which is okay with me, though I didn't like the idea of you charging people to read it when I did all of the work.

I have the three cassettes, which your former partner Bob Vermen tried endlessly to get from me because he needed or wanted the references to the special rifle Holt mentions in the course of our conversation.

While I visited Holt at his home in the San Diego hills with a photographer, and placed my cassette tape recorder on the coffee table in his living room while we chatted, BV claimed that I taped Holt surrepitiously and need the permission of Holt's daughter to use the material. I don't need her permission for anything, and won't have anything to do with BV or his FBI pals.

Holt was a very engaging person and excellent artist. He gave me one of his charchol sketches of JFK and LHO, the limo and Ruby shooting Oswald, entitled "Change of Command Ceremonies - Dallas, Nov. 1963," signed 3x and personalized, with Best Wishes, and notation: "Though world's apart - Since Life's first breath - These equals now joined in death." I liked the guy and talked with him on the phone numerous times afterwards. I was sad to learn he died.

Many of the leads Holt provided checked out (Twombly, Belcher, et al). He acknowledged being a con artists, forger, mob accountant and covert opererator, so how much do you believe of what can't be checked out independtly?

Is Holt one of the tramps?

Lois Gibson thinks so.

While some of Holt's info checks out, others don't, and disinfo is planted among the truth.

I would believe Holt is a tramp more so than Gedney or Hunt, though I think we should know for sure, just as we will id the Man in Mexico City for sure, some day.

BK

Edited September 30, 2006 by William Kelly

[Ron Ecker]

Bill,

Are you saying then that the transcript Wim posted here is what you were told by Holt? I'm particularly intrigued by Holt's reference to Robertson. There is of course photographic evidence that Robertson was at Main and Houston. So I'm wondering if Holt and the photographic record corroborate each other, or if Holt was aware of the lookalike photograph.

It's my understanding that the Robertson lookalike did not come to the research community's attention until a couple of years ago. How might Holt have known what Robertson looked like? Where could they have ever crossed paths?

Ron

[William Plumlee]

Bill,

Are you saying then that the transcript Wim posted here is what you were told by Holt? I'm particularly intrigued by Holt's reference to Robertson. There is of course photographic evidence that Robertson was at Main and Houston. So I'm wondering if Holt and the photographic record corroborate each other, or if Holt was aware of the lookalike photograph.

It's my understanding that the Robertson lookalike did not come to the research community's attention until a couple of years ago. How might Holt have known what Robertson looked like? Where could they have ever crossed paths?

Ron

[William Plumlee]

Bill,

Are you saying then that the transcript Wim posted here is what you were told by Holt? I'm particularly intrigued by Holt's reference to Robertson. There is of course photographic evidence that Robertson was at Main and Houston. So I'm wondering if Holt and the photographic record corroborate each other, or if Holt was aware of the lookalike photograph.

It's my understanding that the Robertson lookalike did not come to the research community's attention until a couple of years ago. How might Holt have known what Robertson looked like? Where could they have ever crossed paths?

Ron

FWIW Its Documented.

Holt first mentioned this name in Phoenix Arizona at the Caravan Inn on Van Brun Street in 1974. This was recorded by Congressman Tom Downing's investigators before the HSCA was formed. Swaicker and Rick Feeney knew about this conversation and I think one of them had it taped by Phoenix Organize Crime Div. Later these same investigators went to the "Thurnbird Inn" in Las Vegas where the story told by Holt was confirmed by others associated with John Roselli. Also people who owned the Grace Ranch near Tucson also confirmed Holts story. It can be found at the "Phoenix Organized Crime Detail". ref; Sgt Ed Salem, Phoenix PD and Sgt Ray Lambertson Arizona Department of Public Safty. Also Senator Berry Goldwater' security advisor also knew or was there about this taped interview. The Phoenix FBI also knew about the tape as well as Karen Holt. Again FWIW... its old news and was not accepted by the research community when it was first made public when Holt was alive. Thats ashame... he is dead now. Ask his daughter about this she is still alive and I think she can add info on this. Tosh

[Wim Dankbaar]

Bill,

1) On my website , you were mentioned as the transcriber.

2) I did not mean to piss you off when I said there were a lot of spelling errors in it.

I can also understand that you can't spell all names correctly from phonetic audio, especially when some of the names don't mean anything to you.

This caught my attention:

While some of Holt's info checks out, others don't, and disinfo is planted among the truth.

Which particular info did not check out in your experience?

Here's the drawing you spoke of:

http://jfkmurdersolved.com/images/holtdrawing.JPG

The gun expert mentioned by Holt, that shot the XP-100, is almost certainly his late friend Michael Harries:

"the shooting instructor, a weapons expert, he did a lot of stuff for the CIA, all very legal, weapons evaluation of agency weapons," is Michael Harries, a known associate of Chauncey Holt. He died in 2000, supposedly a heart attack.

http://www.thegunzone.com/people/mh9dec00.html

http://www.thegunzone.com/people/michael-obit.html (See Antelope valley gun school)

Wim

Edited September 30, 2006 by Wim Dankbaar

[Pat Speer]

Bill,

1) On my website , you were mentioned as the transcriber.

2) I did not mean to piss you off when I said there were a lot of spelling errors in it.

I can also understand that you can't spell all names correctly from phonetic audio, especially when some of the names don't mean anything to you.

This caught my attention:

While some of Holt's info checks out, others don't, and disinfo is planted among the truth.

Which particular info did not check out in your experience?

Here's the drawing you spoke of:

http://jfkmurdersolved.com/images/holtdrawing.JPG

The gun expert mentioned by Holt, that shot the XP-100, is almost certainly his late friend Michael Harries:

"the shooting instructor, a weapons expert, he did a lot of stuff for the CIA, all very legal, weapons evaluation of agency weapons," is Michael Harries, a known associate of Chauncey Holt. He died in 2000, supposedly a heart attack.

http://www.thegunzone.com/people/mh9dec00.html

http://www.thegunzone.com/people/michael-obit.html (See Antelope valley gun school)

Wim

Not sure if this is relevant or not, but Holt's friend "Cowboy," apparently the man behind this nasty and ridiculous website accusing Wim of horrible things, told me he thought the Files story was nonsense when he called me...

[Wim Dankbaar]

Pat, That's because he wanted to sell me another story. His one is bogus though.

Looking at his nonsense ( which he just seems to have removed, I guess he still had some reason left) I don't think it's hard to take his tales with a grain of salt. A big one.

Also, he calls Holt a friend. Holt's daughter says it was not as mutual as he wants to believe. With Michael Harries, yes.

I hope this does not distratct from my main question to Bill, which was:

While some of Holt's info checks out, others don't, and disinfo is planted among the truth.

Which particular info did not check out in your experience?

Wim

Edited September 30, 2006 by Wim Dankbaar

[Ryan Crowe]

Quote..Ryan First : Antelop Valley National Forest is located in Southeast California, part of the Mojave desert. End Quote.

Thanks Bill, The only surrounding National forest's I believe is Angeles National forest and San Gabriel National Forest and Los Padres, I live about 40 minutes from Antelope Valley, and was making sure it was the same location, not a national forest.

[William Kelly]

I hope this does not distratct from my main question to Bill, which was:

While some of Holt's info checks out, others don't, and disinfo is planted among the truth.

Which particular info did not check out in your experience?

Wim

Well, he mentioned that he saw about a dozen guys he worked with on previous operaitons at Dealey Plaza, when some of them have been acounted for elsewhere.

In addition, he said he drove John Rosselli to Dallas in the Olds station wagon from Grace Ranch.

Others claim he was flown in to Dallas in a private plane.

I believe FBI wiretaps of Rosselli place him in a Vegas hotel at the time.

BK

[Paul Choor]

Well, he mentioned that he saw about a dozen guys he worked with on previous operaitons at Dealey Plaza, when some of them have been acounted for elsewhere.

Please explain:

-names?

-where elsewhere?

Gr. Paul.

In addition, he said he drove John Rosselli to Dallas in the Olds station wagon from Grace Ranch.

I think you mean Holt said he drove Charles Nicoletti to Dallas in the Oldsmobile stationwagon?

Gr. Paul.

Others claim he was flown in to Dallas in a private plane.

I believe FBI wiretaps of Rosselli place him in a Vegas hotel at the time.

You mean that others claim that John Roselli was flown in to Dallas in a plane?

That's right, this is claimed by Tosh Plumlee and James Files also heard from Roselli that he flew in to Dallas by plane. That makes me think John Roselli indeed flew in to Dallas by plane, don't you think?

BTW: Plumlee and Files don't know each other...

Gr. Paul.

I believe FBI wiretaps of Rosselli place him in a Vegas hotel at the time.

OK, show them to us!

Gr. Paul.

Edited October 1, 2006 by Paul Choor

[Wim Dankbaar]

Thanks for answering. This is very useful, for now I can show you that you arrive to a conclusion based on erroneous information.

Well, he mentioned that he saw about a dozen guys he worked with on previous operaitons at Dealey Plaza, when some of them have been acounted for elsewhere.

Please be specific as to which persons you mean, and who of them have been definitely accounted for elsewehere. I can't buy non supported alibi stories of the suspects themselves like Frank Sturgis (I was watching TV in my Florida home), Howard Hunt (I was in Washington with my family), George Bush (I don't remember) , Orlando Bosch (I was at home in Miami) , Felix Rodriguez (I don't remember) , Luis Posada (I was pumping gas at Ft Benning, dressed as a sergeant), Charles Harrelson (I was having lunch in a Houston restaurant), Johnny Roselli, by mouth of Gus Russo (I was asleep in my apartment in Vegas when I was woken up to be told the news, I don't know why the FBI lost surveillance of me)

In addition, he said he drove John Rosselli to Dallas in the Olds station wagon from Grace Ranch.

This was not Roselli , but Charles Nicoletti.

Others claim he was flown in to Dallas in a private plane.

Right, Tosh Plumlee a.o. , not a private plane, but military intel.

I believe FBI wiretaps of Rosselli place him in a Vegas hotel at the time.

You belief is wrong. There are no such wiretaps. The FBI claimed they lost surveillance of Roselli between 19 and 26 november, 1963. These seems rather odd if he was just at home in Las Vegas.

BK

Edited October 1, 2006 by Wim Dankbaar

[William Kelly]

Well, he mentioned that he saw about a dozen guys he worked with on previous operaitons at Dealey Plaza, when some of them have been acounted for elsewhere.

Please explain:

-names?

-where elsewhere?

Gr. Paul.

In addition, he said he drove John Rosselli to Dallas in the Olds station wagon from Grace Ranch.

I think you mean Holt said he drove Charles Nicoletti to Dallas in the Oldsmobile stationwagon?

Gr. Paul.

Others claim he was flown in to Dallas in a private plane.

I believe FBI wiretaps of Rosselli place him in a Vegas hotel at the time.

You mean that others claim that John Roselli was flown in to Dallas in a plane?

That's right, this is claimed by Tosh Plumlee and James Files also heard from Roselli that he flew in to Dallas by plane. That makes me think John Roselli indeed flew in to Dallas by plane, don't you think?

BTW: Plumlee and Files don't know each other...

Gr. Paul.

I believe FBI wiretaps of Rosselli place him in a Vegas hotel at the time.

OK, show them to us!

Gr. Paul.

Gee Paul,

It sure sounds like you're interrogating me here, you and Wim playing team tag, hard and soft ball.

Okay, Holt said he drove, Nicoletti, not Roselli - it's getting late and I'm watching The Running Man. At the end of the movie Robert Osborne relates the story of how the Columbia marketeers created a sturr with the FBI over the classified adds that ran in newspapers to "create a buzz." Call me, Lee.

I wonder what Roselli did in Hollywood as a producer?

So Holt and Nicoletti and Joe (Canti?) drove to Dallas. And Roselli flew in, according to Tosh and Files.

And I don't have and wouldn't believe as gospel the FBI wire taps that place Roselli in Vegas.

The bottom line is, Holt said all these people were at Dealey Plaza and I don't believe they all were.

names?

whereelse?

You have the names and know how to spell them.

Where else? Holt claimed after being released he caught a ride with Jim Braden, while Braden testified before HSCA that he caught a ride with a couple of Secret Service guys.

I'm not nitpicking, I'm just pointing out some of the things that Holt said that don't jive.

There are certainly more items that check out - Belcher - Twombly - the Hollywood Prop Studio - Grace Ranch, Licovelis - etc. , all provide fruitfull ground for futher research.

Holt, unlike Judyth (and Ron Lewis), provides many new names and leads that even today have yet to be fully followed. I just don't have the time or inclination to do it. So much research, so little time.

Nor do I think it necessary to insist that anyone believe in the bonafides of a certain witness or be convinced they are liers. In the end we all have to decide for ourselves what to believe and what to reject.

BK

[Paul Choor]

Gee Paul,

It sure sounds like you're interrogating me here, you and Wim playing team tag, hard and soft ball.

Hi Bill, didn't mean to do that!

If you feel it that way, I'm sorry for that but do know it wasn't my intention...

I just immediately had some questions for you when I read your post and I guess Wim felt that way too!

Gr. Paul.