Chauncey Holt

[Mark Johansson]

Hi Mark, you are correct, the older tramp isn;t Hunt, his name is Gus Abrams. Identified by his sister with whom he been living for 15 years up to his death. Steve.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is on Wim's forum: It is pretty easy to have someone state something like that for money or fear. There is even the slight chance she really believed it looked like her brother, but I rule that out.

By the way, can you give me an affidavit to what she said? Would she testify to it under oath? What is the basis anyway that we should accept she said it in the first place?

Gedney, Abrams and Doyle are on the far right of these slides, the corresponding tramp is in the middle and Harrelson, Holt and Rogers on the left.

http://jfkmurdersolved.com/slide/DSC00066.JPG

http://jfkmurdersolved.com/slide/DSC00082.JPG

http://jfkmurdersolved.com/slide/DSC00109.JPG

Why did his Abrams' sister or her supporters not produce a few pictures of Abrams, especially at a younger age? Whether your brother has become a tramp or not, she surely would have some family or school pictures. We all have that.

Lois Gibson:

http://jfkmurdersolved.com/lois4.htm

There is Gus Abrams. I believe, I know his last name is Abrams. He has been said to be the older tramp.

And this is easy to discount. Once again, his lips are further away from the bottom of his nose. It is just impossible that this individual is the older tramp. It's impossible. Also the nose is shorter relative to the shape of the face and the size of the face. It's just a smaller nose. Also the eyebrows, the eyesockets are a different shape and the eyebrows start down towards the center of the nose and they go up, they make a zig-zag. This individual's eyebrows make a zig-zag, they go up after leaving the center of the face and as they travel to the outside of the face, they go back down. Chauncey's are relatively just straight accross and so are the older tramp's. There is just no plastic surgery available to make these changes in your face. This is absolutely not the old tramp.

And once again, if you draw lines on the face ... I don't even need to prove this, I mean this is just definitely not Abrams.

It is just abundantly obvious to me. Even the chin, the chin, okay, this is from the mouth to the bottom of the chin, it's way longer for Gus Abrams.

Mark

Edited September 26, 2005 by Mark Johansson

[Guest Stephen Turner]

Hi Mark, you are correct, the older tramp isn;t Hunt, his name is Gus Abrams. Identified by his sister with whom he been living for 15 years up to his death. Steve.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is on Wim's forum: It is pretty easy to have someone state something like that for money or fear. There is even the slight chance she really believed it looked like her brother, but I rule that out.

MARK, DO YOU HAVE ANY EVIDENCE, AT ALL TO BACK THIS UP. SHE DIDN'T SAY IT LOOKED LIKE HER BROTHER, SHE SAID,"YEP THATS GUS ALLRIGHT"

By the way, can you give me an affidavit to what she said? Would she testify to it under oath? What is the basis anyway that we should accept she said it in the first place?

HER STATEMENT WASN'T IN THE FORM OF AN AFFIDAVIT,AND I HAVE NO IDEA IF SHE WOULD TESTIFY TO IT UNDER OATH. ARE YOU NOW DENYING THAT SHE MADE THIS STATEMENT? IF SO SUPPORTING EVIDENCE PLEASE.

Gedney, Abrams and Doyle are on the far right of these slides, the corresponding tramp is in the middle and Harrelson, Holt and Rogers on the left.

http://jfkmurdersolved.com/slide/DSC00066.JPG

http://jfkmurdersolved.com/slide/DSC00082.JPG

http://jfkmurdersolved.com/slide/DSC00109.JPG

Why did his Abrams' sister or her supporters not produce a few pictures of Abrams, especially at a younger age? Whether your brother has become a tramp or not, she surely would have some family or school pictures. We all have that.

BECAUSE SHE WASN'T ASKED TO DO SO. AND WHATS THIS ABOUT SUPPORTERS, WHY THE NEED TO FACTIONALIZE EVERYTHING?UNLIKE FILES SHE DOES'T HAVE TEAMS OF CHEERLEADERS, OR MONEY SPINNING WEB SITES.

Lois Gibson:

http://jfkmurdersolved.com/lois4.htm

There is Gus Abrams. I believe, I know his last name is Abrams. He has been said to be the older tramp.

And this is easy to discount. Once again, his lips are further away from the bottom of his nose. It is just impossible that this individual is the older tramp. It's impossible. Also the nose is shorter relative to the shape of the face and the size of the face. It's just a smaller nose. Also the eyebrows, the eyesockets are a different shape and the eyebrows start down towards the center of the nose and they go up, they make a zig-zag. This individual's eyebrows make a zig-zag, they go up after leaving the center of the face and as they travel to the outside of the face, they go back down. Chauncey's are relatively just straight accross and so are the older tramp's. There is just no plastic surgery available to make these changes in your face. This is absolutely not the old tramp.

And once again, if you draw lines on the face ... I don't even need to prove this, I mean this is just definitely not Abrams.

It is just abundantly obvious to me. Even the chin, the chin, okay, this is from the mouth to the bottom of the chin, it's way longer for Gus Abrams.

Mark

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Guest Stephen Turner]

Here are a few more problems I have with the tramps, Depending upon the needs of the individual theorist, the tramps have been "named" as at least 20 different people, this fact alone should set alarm bells ringing.Also I have never been given a convincing arguement as to what their operational role was,Three guys dressed as tramps, found in the box car of a locomotive, arrested, paraded though downtown,and photographed, whats wrong with this picture, couldn't any of them drive an automobile. This leads into a third problem, the tramps are discovered well over an hour after the assassination holed up, as I said, in a boxcar, what on earth are these proto assassins playing at, surely once the job is done you get the hell out, once again I am forced to think that a car should have formed a part of their escape plans.One final thing that makes the whole scenario highly unlikely is the actions of the DPD, now for this tale to hold water for a second, many DPD officers must have been co-conspiritors, so lets for arguements sake assume that this is the case. why on earth would you arrest your fellow conspiritors march them though Town, and allow photo's to be taken. I can think of no more bone-headed responce to this situation....

[Mark Johansson]

Here are a few more problems I have with the tramps, Depending upon the needs of the individual theorist, the tramps have been "named" as at least 20 different people, this fact alone should set alarm bells ringing.Also I have never been given a convincing arguement as to what their operational role was,Three guys dressed as tramps, found in the box car of a locomotive, arrested, paraded though downtown,and photographed, whats wrong with this picture, couldn't any of them drive an automobile. This leads into a third problem, the tramps are discovered well over an hour after the assassination holed up, as I said, in a boxcar, what on earth are these proto assassins playing at, surely once the job is done you get the hell out, once again I am forced to think that a car should have formed a part of their escape plans.One final thing that makes the whole scenario highly unlikely is the actions of the DPD, now for this tale to hold water for a second, many DPD officers must have been co-conspiritors, so lets for arguements sake assume that this is the case. why on earth would you arrest your fellow conspiritors march them though Town, and allow photo's to be taken. I can think of no more bone-headed responce to this situation....

Stephen,

Read these interviews with Chauncey Holt. It will clarify a lot.

Your absolutely right. It was a stupid thing to get caught on photo. Even James Files tought that!

http://www.jfkmurdersolved.com/holt1.htm

http://www.jfkmurdersolved.com/truthout.htm

Mark

Edited September 27, 2005 by Mark Johansson

[Steve Thomas]

Stephen,

This leads into a third problem, the tramps are discovered well over an hour after the assassination holed up, as I said, in a boxcar, what on earth are these proto assassins playing at, surely once the job is done you get the hell out, once again I am forced to think that a car should have formed a part of their escape plans.

I believe that the tramps were, in fact, arrested twice - once by the Dallas County Sheriff's Department, and later by the Dallas City Police Department.

William Earl Chambers was interviewed on 3/3/92 by SA Gary Gerszewski of the FBI and Lieutenant Kenneth Lybrand, City of Dallas Police Department. William Chambers worked for the City of Dallas Police Department from October, 1954 until January, 1992.

He was a Detective in the Forgery Division. He was at the Trade Mart when Kennedy was shot. Approximately 40 minutes later, he drove down to City Hall.

In his FBI interview, it says, "After watching the individuals for a period of time, Captain Jones approached Chambers and told him, “take them into my office”. Once inside Captain Jones office, Captain Jones told Chambers, “find out which one shot the President”.

“When questioned regarding the circumstances of their arrest, the three individuals indicated that they were on a freight car sleeping when they were wakened by officers with different colored uniforms than the ones worn by the officers who drove them down to the station."

“They were briefly questioned by those officers who then told them that they better leave town. The three then boarded another boxcar and were shortly thereafter arrested by the City of Dallas Police Department”.

(They were arrested twice. The first time, they were driven down to the station).

“Chambers believes that the Officers who first interviewed the hobos were members of the Dallas County Sheriff’s Department, who at that time had uniforms of a different color than that of the City of Dallas Police Department. The hobos were then brought down to the station.

Steve Thomas

[Guest Stephen Turner]

Steve, thanks for the information, its all new to me. can I ask where you found this. Steve.

[Jack White]

Here are a few more problems I have with the tramps, Depending upon the needs of the individual theorist, the tramps have been "named" as at least 20 different people, this fact alone should set alarm bells ringing.Also I have never been given a convincing arguement as to what their operational role was,Three guys dressed as tramps, found in the box car of a locomotive, arrested, paraded though downtown,and photographed, whats wrong with this picture, couldn't any of them drive an automobile. This leads into a third problem, the tramps are discovered well over an hour after the assassination holed up, as I said, in a boxcar, what on earth are these proto assassins playing at, surely once the job is done you get the hell out, once again I am forced to think that a car should have formed a part of their escape plans.One final thing that makes the whole scenario highly unlikely is the actions of the DPD, now for this tale to hold water for a second, many DPD officers must have been co-conspiritors, so lets for arguements sake assume that this is the case. why on earth would you arrest your fellow conspiritors march them though Town, and allow photo's to be taken. I can think of no more bone-headed responce to this situation....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Very good reasoning, Steve. One correction I think. Bowers from his elevated

position saw the tramps in a GONDOLA car, not a BOXCAR. A gondola car has

no doors, but an OPEN TOP and bottom trapdoor; it is used for carring grain, dirt,

gravel, etc. Check it out. Now this poses a problem with Holt's story, since he

claimed he and the other two were in a BOXCAR.

Also...the false tramps were arrested far south of Dealey Plaza in a boxcar, according

to the record. (IN THE VICINITY OF TODAY'S HYATT REGENCY HOTEL) Therefore it

makes no sense that cops would MARCH THEM ACROSS THE TRIPLE UNDERPASS

AND THROUGH THE PLAZA! A direct route would be north on Houston Street.

All the fans of Holt and the false tramps overlook these details. Check it out.

Jack

Edited September 27, 2005 by Jack White

[Steve Thomas]

Stephen,

Steve, thanks for the information, its all new to me. can I ask where you found this.  Steve.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Denis Morissette has assembled an impressive collection of documents relating to the Three Tramps here:

http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Senat.../Documents.html

Read the FBI interviews of William Chambers, Marvin Wise, David Harkness, Bill Bass, etc.

Steve Thomas

[Steve Thomas]

Hello Jack,

Very good reasoning, Steve. One correction I think. Bowers from his elevated

position saw the tramps in a GONDOLA car, not a BOXCAR. A gondola car has

no doors, but an OPEN TOP and bottom trapdoor; it is used for carring grain, dirt,

gravel, etc. Check it out. Now this poses a problem with Holt's story, since he

claimed he and the other two were in a BOXCAR.

Also...the false tramps were arrested far south of Dealey Plaza in a boxcar, according

to the record. (IN THE VICINITY OF TODAY'S HYATT REGENCY HOTEL) Therefore it

makes no sense that cops would MARCH THEM ACROSS THE TRIPLE UNDERPASS

AND THROUGH THE PLAZA! A direct route would be north on Houston Street.

All the fans of Holt and the false tramps overlook these details. Check it out.

Jack

Yes, the accounts are inconsistent - which is why I think individuals confused details of the different arrests. Once upon a time I had started assembling notes on the arrest accounts and comparing them. I did this in the form of questions, one of which was:

WHAT KIND OF RAILROAD CAR WERE YOU ON WHEN YOU WERE ARRESTED?

Bill Bass (FBI) 6/15/92: “a grain car.”

Marvin Wise 3/6/92: Wise was told that the three men climbed into a coal car.

John Gedney FBI 2/26/92 “Gedney said that he thought they were lying on big sheets of steel on a flatbed railroad car when the police came over with guns, said don’t move and then arrested them and took them over to the Dallas City jail.

Harold Doyle FBI 2/20/92 “They then got on a gondola, also known as a coal car, and were heading towards Fort Worth, when the train was stopped.”

Doyle and Gedney’s arrest record: "These men were taken off a train boxcar in the rail yards right after President Kennedy as shot,"

William Chambers: When questioned the three individuals said they were “on a freight car sleeping.”

Another question related to the timing of the arrest:

Lee Bowers in his testimony before the Warren Commission, vol VI, p. 288:

Between 50 and a hundred policemen came up the slope within 5 minutes. “That’s right. Sealed off the area and I held off the trains until they could be examined, and there were some transients taken on at least one train.”

From their arrest records:

“These men were taken off a train box car in the rail yards right after President Kennedy was shot. These men are passing through town. They have no jobs or any means of making a living”.

(According to the Dispatch Tapes of Channel 1, Marvin Wise reported his location at 12:38pm)

12:38 DIS: 71, robbery of an individual, 2205 Cockrell. 12:38.

At approximately 12:42pm, 71 reported his location as Corinth and Harwood:

DIS: 71.

71: Corinth and Harwood.

DIS: Code 3.

Many squads were being instructed at this point to proceed to Elm and Houston Code 3.

He arrived and parked near the railroad tracks. He went to the TSBD and was assigned to the west side of the TSBD. . “He was sitting in his car and a man working in the railroad building waved at him. Wise and another officer (name forgotten) were told by the man that three men got into a boxcar about four or five hundred yards down the track. Wise, in company with Bill Bass, Roy Vaughn and Middleton (although Middleton denies that he was there) went to the boxcars and took the men of the boxcar”.

Wise took the men over to the Sheriff’s Office, and while waiting to turn them over, asked the men for identification. Wise stated that he believes that two of the men had documented ID’s.

He turned the men over to the Sheriff’s Office (Deputy name unknown), and went back to his radio”. He heard over the police radio that a policeman had been shot, and a little later heard that it was J.D. Tippit”.

Notice the timing. The tramps have been picked up and are in the station when Wise hears about Tippit. (Tippit was shot at approximately 1:16pm)

And yet, there is this transmission on the Dispatch tapes at 1:57 pm:

1:57 Dallas Police Tapes

1579. 61: 61.

1580. DIS: 61.

1581. 61: We have information from the agent out here at the T&P.

Said that the train is stopped on the overpass, the

Triple Overpass; that there was a person jump in the

ninth box car from the front engine. Said he's hiding in

the car.

1582. DIS: Is the train stopped there now?

1583. 61: I'm in behind the Texas Shool Depository. He has the

train stopped. (voices) He said it is the ninth car from

the engine, a gondola-type car; said he is hankered down

inside.

There is no way, of course to know if this person jumping into the ninth car from the front engine is one of those people supposedly sleeping in a gondola car or a freight car (see above).

DID THE ARRESTING OFFICERS HAVE SHOTGUNS, OR JUST PISTOLS?

When Wise reported to the sergeant in charge at the TSBD, “Wise was told to stop anyone who came out of the building and that he should get his [bOLD]shotgun[/bOLD] out of his vehicle”.

“Wise exited the control tower; he and the four other officers ran to a coal car which was identified by an individual driving a locomotive engine alongside an adjacent track. Wise and Vaughn were the two officers who actually climbed up and then down into the car where they located three individuals. Pointing their [bOLD]shotguns[/bOLD] at the three individuals, Wise and Vaughn ordered the three to exit the car.

FBI interview with Gedney 3/6/92

“Gedney said that the officers that arrested them in the railroad yard had revolvers and he did not recall any of them having rifles or shotguns at the time of arrest. Gedney said that he was not sure if these were the same officers that arrested them in the railroad yard or not”.

There are many other questions surrounding these men, such as, If they were told they were free to go, what were they doing in jail four days later?

Were they, or were they not fingerprinted?

“During the book-in, a thumbprint of the prisoner would be placed on each of the three copies”.

(The Arrest Report on Investigative Prisoner contains no thumbprints)

(Doyle says they were fingerprinted)!

Gedney said that they were taken to the basement of the jail, and “may have been fingerprinted”

It goes on and on.

Steve Thomas

[Jack White]

Very good summary, Steve. You should add Bowers testimony. After all,

he is the person who reported the tramps in the GONDOLA car where

they were arrested ABOUT 2 pm NEAR THE TRIPLE UNDERPASS. Bowers

report resulted in the arrests, and is more reliable than reports YEARS

LATER.

The false tramps were picked up FARTHER SOUTH in a different type

of train car at "about the time of the Tippit shooting"...earlier.

Too many discrepancies.

Jack

[Pat Speer]

BESIDES the three tramps story, and the photo analysis, what else do we know about Holt? Is there any reason to believe any of his story? Outside of his story, has anyone found ANY evidence connecting him to the intelligence agencies? Has anyone here heard of "cowboy," a man who claims to have worked with Holt in the seventies and eighties?

Edited March 29, 2006 by Pat Speer

[Bill Grote]

BESIDES the three tramps story, and the photo analysis, what else do we know about Holt? Is there any reason to believe any of his story? Outside of his story, has anyone found ANY evidence connecting him to the intelligence agencies? Has anyone here heard of "cowboy," a man who claims to have worked with Holt in the seventies and eighties?

Holt spent his "retirement" years in La Mesa, CA, a small suburb east of San Diego. There was an article about him in the San Diego Union. This was when Mark Lane's "Plausable Denial" was first published. I brought Mark a copy of the paper at his book signing in LaJolla, CA. I remember telling Mark that Chauncy was only a few minutes away and that he should look him up.

In the article Chanuncy Holt claimed to walk in a particular "toes-out" way. He claimed that if you look at the feet of the old tramp you can tell by the walk that it's him. At least, that's what I remember of the article. It must be in the archives of the San Diego Union for that year.

[Pat Speer]

Thanks, Bill. I'm hoping that someone's done some research on Holt beyond what he said in his interviews and beyond what the La Fontaines uncovered. My curiousity was spurred on after listening to the interview available on the bottom right corner of this webpage.

http://csoupradio.com/interface/index.php

The interview is of a man who goes by the name Cowboy and who claims to have been brought into the CIA by Chauncey Holt in the seventies. I'm curious if anyone's looked into this.

[Bill Grote]

Just found an interesting link to an article written by Chauncey Holt, in response to Posner's book. It's a little long-winded but the last pages are interesting. It's in PDF with a 2005 copyright from Karen Holt.

You can find it here:

http://www.assassinationresearch.com/v3n2/v3n2holt.pdf

[Bill Grote]

Just found an interesting link to an article written by Chauncey Holt, in response to Posner's book. It's a little long-winded but the last pages are interesting. It's in PDF with a 2005 copyright from Karen Holt.

You can find it here:

http://www.assassinationresearch.com/v3n2/v3n2holt.pdf

One more item found in a response to a JFK class concerning Chauncey Holt

Kenneth,

My name's David Mollering, I'm an Illustrator working for the San Diego Union-Tribune. I've been into the assassination since highschool, the early 70's. In 1994 I had the chance to meet one of the so-called tramps, the older tramp, otherwise known as the third tramp, Chauncey Holt. The three men photographed being escorted by police through Dealy Plaza. We became great friends and had lunch weekly for the next three and a half years. Not only was he a contract agent, but he worked for big business and the mob for thirty years. Starting after WWII working for Meyer Lansky as an accountant, among other things. He was a skilled assassin taking part in most of the Central American black operation for the company, starting with Guatemala and continuing through Chile. We filmed him the week before he died in June 1997. The one thing we have that noboby else has are the documents and letters he kept. Linking Big business the mob and the agency. Soon you'll be able to see for yourself what went on during those times. I always felt I was going to lunch each week with the unspoken history of 50's 60's and 70's.

I think it's a great idea getting students involved in the subject, seeing the times at such a distance should bring a clearer eye.

If any of your students would like to write and inquire about what I learned from Chauncey, I'd be more than happy to tell what I know. If you have any reservations about my story, please write James H. Fetzer, PHD, University of Minn @ Duluth. (jfetzer@d.unm.edu) He is very familar with Chauncey's story, and a good friend.

sincerly David Mollering

dmolring@cts.com