Missing Nix frames

[Frank Agbat]

Findings: On this composite the black lines are the locations of the front edge of the fender on consecutive frames as per available film . The lower single red mark is the frame where the headshot is first visible. The red lines between the black lines are my estimates of missing frames. When the film runs the missing frames give an appearance of smooth continuity. When properly placed in space on the composite the jerky leaps of speed at the missing frames is obvious.

(image)

John, I must be blind for I cannot see your example ... can you point me towards it? Feel free to email me with it if you wish at - Imsjle@aol.com. I would also like to know the source for the film you are using because I have a copy of Groden's 1st generation print from the Nix film and I do not see any missing frames around the kill shot in my copy. I called Groden just now and confirmed my observation with him and this is why I would like to see your example and to find out its source. Knowing this is important because if you are using a latter generation copy that someone has damaged by removing frames - it is a moot point if the same film without missing frames exist.

Thanks,

Bill Miller

Bill,

I think we've determined with a reasonable degree of certainty that the frames that were missing from the initial sample were a result of problems with the source AVI file and not with the z-film itself (specifically, the inverse telecine process). When I repeated the test with Groden's DVD as the source, the frame alignment was much more normal. I've posted the spacing distribution earlier in this thread.

[Frank Agbat]

yeah, I ask because Z-film imagery on my MPI DVD is no where near as sharp as what you posted in the above clip. Leads me to believe some *unsharp-mask* process was done someplace... What software was used for 3:2 pulldown removal? and did the final Z-product work out to 18.3fps?

yeah, I'm well aware of .gif color palette issues and the internet. Further, the intended speed of the displayed clips - and the N-dropped/missing frames issue i raised? Sorry for all the questions.

David,

No need to apologize for questions. Such inquiry is a vital part of any research.

The z-film frames that produced the clips are straight from the MPI DVD -- honest! No unsharp-mask, nothing.

I'll describe the process that I used for the film frames in detail:

* I ripped the DVD to its constituent VOB files.

* I opened the VOB file containing the z-film "Under Sprocket Hole" version in VirtualDubMod.

* Inside VDubMod, I selected the portion of the video that I wanted.

* I saved the resulting clip as an AVI file (no sound) using the Huffy lossless Codec.

At this point, I had a very large AVI file, that contained 29.97fps interlaced video. (Huffy is lossless, but tends to produce LARGE files)

* I opened the AVI file in a utility that I wrote myself that can produce a JPG (or any other format) image for each video frame in the AVI file.

* This utility saved a series of JPG files (Q=75) representing the contents of the AVI. Each file is a 720x480 resolution jpg (same res. as the DVD source, of course)

* I then performed the IVTC process by hand.

At this point, I had a directory full of jpg images, each one representing one z-film frame. (same process was used for Nix frames, etc)

-----------

I do not have an answer to the speed question. It happens only on the gif, and only on firefox.

The appearance of missing frames is an illusion that is the result of my attempts to align the n-frames. Agent Hill, which was my target for registration, is obscured from view on several occasions. Plus, Nix's camera is panning to catch up with the limo. As such, the motion (toward the end) appears to hitch (like a missing frame). Nevertheless, I'll verify that all the frames made it in there and in the correct order. I've been a bit under the weather the past few days, so it wouldn't be outside the realm of possibility to have an error in there!

I used ImageReady to make the Gif. The "duration" of each frame is set to 0.05 seconds -- this is as close as I can come to 18.3 fps, as ImageReady does not accept 0.0546 -- it merely rounds it to 0.05.

Again, though, the Gif is merely for purposes of proving the concept of producing images that have in-sync sources from multiple assassination films. You know all about the limits and problems with Gifs, but for "quick and dirty" stuff (like a proof of concept), they'll do.

Ultimately, I hope to be able to produce usable, synchronized footage that allows us to see the events from multiple perspectives simultaneously. This is quite a challenge on two fronts: There are technical issues, of course, but the larger issue is how to present such things in a way that the eye and brain can track.

[David G. Healy]

'Frank Agbat' wrote:

yeah, I ask because Z-film imagery on my MPI DVD is no where near as sharp as what you posted in the above clip. Leads me to believe some *unsharp-mask* process was done someplace... What software was used for 3:2 pulldown removal? and did the final Z-product work out to 18.3fps?

yeah, I'm well aware of .gif color palette issues and the internet. Further, the intended speed of the displayed clips - and the N-dropped/missing frames issue i raised? Sorry for all the questions.

David,

No need to apologize for questions. Such inquiry is a vital part of any research.

The z-film frames that produced the clips are straight from the MPI DVD -- honest! No unsharp-mask, nothing.

I'll describe the process that I used for the film frames in detail:

* I ripped the DVD to its constituent VOB files.

* I opened the VOB file containing the z-film "Under Sprocket Hole" version in VirtualDubMod.

* Inside VDubMod, I selected the portion of the video that I wanted.

* I saved the resulting clip as an AVI file (no sound) using the Huffy lossless Codec.

At this point, I had a very large AVI file, that contained 29.97fps interlaced video. (Huffy is lossless, but tends to produce LARGE files)

* I opened the AVI file in a utility that I wrote myself that can produce a JPG (or any other format) image for each video frame in the AVI file.

* This utility saved a series of JPG files (Q=75) representing the contents of the AVI. Each file is a 720x480 resolution jpg (same res. as the DVD source, of course)

* I then performed the IVTC process by hand.

dgh: 3:2 pulldown by hand? Curious, how'd you do that? Thanks....

At this point, I had a directory full of jpg images, each one representing one z-film frame. (same process was used for Nix frames, etc)

-----------

I do not have an answer to the speed question. It happens only on the gif, and only on firefox.

The appearance of missing frames is an illusion that is the result of my attempts to align the n-frames. Agent Hill, which was my target for registration, is obscured from view on several occasions. Plus, Nix's camera is panning to catch up with the limo. As such, the motion (toward the end) appears to hitch (like a missing frame). Nevertheless, I'll verify that all the frames made it in there and in the correct order. I've been a bit under the weather the past few days, so it wouldn't be outside the realm of possibility to have an error in there!

I used ImageReady to make the Gif. The "duration" of each frame is set to 0.05 seconds -- this is as close as I can come to 18.3 fps, as ImageReady does not accept 0.0546 -- it merely rounds it to 0.05.

Again, though, the Gif is merely for purposes of proving the concept of producing images that have in-sync sources from multiple assassination films. You know all about the limits and problems with Gifs, but for "quick and dirty" stuff (like a proof of concept), they'll do.

Ultimately, I hope to be able to produce usable, synchronized footage that allows us to see the events from multiple perspectives simultaneously. This is quite a challenge on two fronts: There are technical issues, of course, but the larger issue is how to present such things in a way that the eye and brain can track.

dgh: good idea, I asked the Lone Nutter's years ago to display the seamlessness of the DP films, this is the closest anyone has come to date...

Perhaps the 6th floor museum will provide 1st generation digital copies of the film frame, anything short of that and it'll be a tough sell with the alterationists... David

[John Dolva]

OK, this started by looking at what could be as what Bill describes as to latter generation copy with dropped frames, not the groden copy. Anyway, with Frank we sorted that out and progressed to where it is now. I don't think we determined with certainty why the frames were dropped as it is an odd pattern particularly at the headshot.* However, that is not necessarily important. Though it may be considering what James O'Hagan had to say about frames being doctored at some point. IOW what the differing versions as far as frames missing go they may indicate something about the chronology of that event.

That was the initial image. It led to a sharing of techniques, which was a major step. Frank has gone on and done statistical analysis of the groden set and produced the sync clips.

I think this part of the work by Frank is very important. The consequences could be far reaching^. I'm checking (and will report later, hopefully others are as well). There's also work with Tom to look at limo speeds etc.

I think both Frank and I at this point see the establishment of a baseline or benchmark for a small section of prime importance and the rest will flow from there. So critical review and comments most desirable.

*There are incomplete reports of the Nix films history. There's what the sixth floor museum has and there are various accounts including what Nix himself had to say. One thing that keeps popping up is reference to an Italian movie called "The Two Kennedys".

This movie is supposed to contain very early versions of Nix and Z. Has anyone seen it?

^I think I can understand why no sides of the deabate, including the disinterested one (which basically is interested in getting the process right and then seeing the result rather than to look for any particular result) has actually sat down and done this before. Partly it's a matter of not knowing how exactly, and partly it's amatter of reliable sources. However, I think it is possible to circumvent source problems by establishing a benchmark and by creating a slowly growing 'pattern analysis' from the statistical approach and syncs which may provide a template of sorts that films can be checked against and inconsistencies revealed and foused on. It's slow and painstaking initially but worthwhile in the long run.(IMO)

[Thomas H. Purvis]

OK, this started by looking at what could be as what Bill describes as to latter generation copy with dropped frames, not the groden copy. Anyway, with Frank we sorted that out and progressed to where it is now. I don't think we determined with certainty why the frames were dropped as it is an odd pattern particularly at the headshot.* However, that is not necessarily important. Though it may be considering what James O'Hagan had to say about frames being doctored at some point. IOW what the differing versions as far as frames missing go they may indicate something about the chronology of that event.

That was the initial image. It led to a sharing of techniques, which was a major step. Frank has gone on and done statistical analysis of the groden set and produced the sync clips.

I think this part of the work by Frank is very important. The consequences could be far reaching^. I'm checking (and will report later, hopefully others are as well). There's also work with Tom to look at limo speeds etc.

I think both Frank and I at this point see the establishment of a baseline or benchmark for a small section of prime importance and the rest will flow from there. So critical review and comments most desirable.

*There are incomplete reports of the Nix films history. There's what the sixth floor museum has and there are various accounts including what Nix himself had to say. One thing that keeps popping up is reference to an Italian movie called "The Two Kennedys".

This movie is supposed to contain very early versions of Nix and Z. Has anyone seen it?

^I think I can understand why no sides of the deabate, including the disinterested one (which basically is interested in getting the process right and then seeing the result rather than to look for any particular result) has actually sat down and done this before. Partly it's a matter of not knowing how exactly, and partly it's amatter of reliable sources. However, I think it is possible to circumvent source problems by establishing a benchmark and by creating a slowly growing 'pattern analysis' from the statistical approach and syncs which may provide a template of sorts that films can be checked against and inconsistencies revealed and foused on. It's slow and painstaking initially but worthwhile in the long run.(IMO)

John;

The work which is currently being done in correlation of the Nix film with the same exact timing of the Z-film should establish some basic and fundamental results.

Although it is entirely possible to have done so, the Nix film was not immediately in the possession of those who may have some vested interest in omission of aspects of the film.

Therefore, in event a given "standard" can be established in which one can feel reasonably secure that virtually none of the frames are missing, then hopefully, the vehicle speed through this segment of the Nix film can be compared with the vehicle speed through the same given area as demonstrated on the Z-film.

In regards to merely visual comparison of films, one may wish to ask/fully check into the cerebral tissue spray from the head of JFK.

Nix was considerably farther away from the Presidential Limo than was Zapruder, and Zapruder had a much better filming position.

Thus, if blood/cerebral tissue spray is observed in the Nix film, it most certainly should be fully observeable in the Z-film.

Lastly, the Nix film fully captures the first attempt of the "running man/Clint Hill" as he first stepped up onto the rear bumper of the Presidential Limo.

Hill got one foot onto the bumper and began to step up onto the limo, when his foot slipped and he went back down with both feet back onto the street.

Thereafter, Hill had to run several additional steps prior to regaining his foot position back onto the rear bumper.

Z367 IS NOT the first time that Hill had his foot onto the bumper of the Limo.

The first time was just prior to the third/last shot, and this falls in what we now see as the Z-339/Z340 vicinity.

In the Nix film, Hill can clearly be seen rising in elevation as he began to step up onto the rear bumper. Then, his top of head elevation drops back down again as he begins to run to get back onto the back of the limo.

The Z-film appears to be quite faulty in presentation of this, whereas the Nix film demonstrates it clearly.

[Frank Agbat]

dgh: 3:2 pulldown by hand? Curious, how'd you do that? Thanks....

Pulldown by hand is by far the best way to do it... It just takes a bloody long time. For short clips like these, though, it is tolerable.

The key to the whole thing is to remember that computers deal solely with progressive content. Software media players are fully progressive entities, so when they are "playing" something, they are really flipping full images. The file structures (containers, such as .AVI) must contain full frames. When the source DVD is ripped, the resulting files will contain full frame images. Note -- this is NOT to imply that the video is progressive at this point. I'm merely stating that you don't have partial frames, etc. The resulting video container *might* (or might not, depending on how ripping was done) contain up to three things: progressive frames, telecined frames, and interlaced frames.

The software that I wrote (and there are dozens of applications that can do the exact same thing) merely grabs one frame at a time from the video container (.avi file, for example) and saves it as a still (.jpg). The result is a folder full of still images -- each one full frame, but not necessarily progressive. I then go through the folder and remove duplicate frames (telecined) and interlaced frames. The result is a series of images that represent the original progressive source frames. This is exactly the same process that IVTC software performs (apps such as TMPG, AfterEffects, Premier, Vegas, et al), except they attempt to discern the pattern based on frame change information, horizontal lines (interlacing), etc. If the pattern is pure, IVTC will work. Odd patterns lead to dropped frames (like we saw on the first NIX example). Doing it by hand takes a while, because I have to check each image. However, it is guaranteed to not go haywire (unless I go haywire, of course).

(I'll put a quick example together and show what I'm talking about visually).

dgh: good idea, I asked the Lone Nutter's years ago to display the seamlessness of the DP films, this is the closest anyone has come to date...

It will be most interesting to see if things are seamless or not. This is a fairly tedious process, and there are still some significant hurdles to cross - most notably in the "presentation" side. Nevertheless, I think there is merit to the technique.

Perhaps the 6th floor museum will provide 1st generation digital copies of the film frame, anything short of that and it'll be a tough sell with the alterationists...

I think it is fair to say that all would welcome the best possible sources.

[Ashton Gray]

I think it is possible to circumvent source problems by establishing a benchmark and by creating a slowly growing 'pattern analysis' from the statistical approach and syncs which may provide a template of sorts that films can be checked against and inconsistencies revealed and foused on. It's slow and painstaking initially but worthwhile in the long run.(IMO)

And you and Frank Agbat are doing a fine, exceptional, and fully informative job that no one has assayed even to attempt before. Relevant and informed critiques of and contributions to such an extraordinary effort of individual initiative are rarer than snake feathers, so please carry on. "With great vigah."

Ashton

[Frank Agbat]

The joys of NTSC and film sources...

The following frames are from an NTSC DVD source. The frame number is relative to the beginning of the video file, not to the actual film source.

To reduce this to purely progressive video:

Remove:

- frame 353: it contains no unique information. It is a combo of two other frames

- frame 356: duplicate

- frame 358: duplicate

The result is non-interlaced progressive video. This is the Inverse Telecine process "de-automated".

[John Dolva]

I'm trying to find alternative ways of approaching the confirmation reasoning that any alternative way should confim and in the process IF it doesn't do so then it is indicative of a possible problem.

In the process of doing so here's an understading of the ghost images of the intersprocket area and what is actually seen there.

The B/W limo inset shows what it is and there one can see the relative limo-MC(right side) movements. So there should be a nix frame that has the same relative movements or obversely the suggested frame pair will have this relative movement.

The insets are from previous and following frames, ie. the location of the ghost images relate to the frame before the actual frame.

Image

_____________________

A totally separate issue that doesn't justify starting a new topic so without interrupting this topic here's just the info in case anyone has the interest in following it. Telly just had an American doco, "Billy and the Fighter Boys", about English Ace Billy Drake of No 1 Squadron in France before the Battle of Britain. The relevance is that in this group of squadrons were pilots from the China Theatre, namely Chennaults Tigers. The doco had closeups of group photos and some names and of log books. A Canadian pilot mentioned was Bill Brown.

_____________________

Edited December 11, 2006 by John Dolva

[Robin Unger]

Frank/John.

Great Job.

Keep up the good work. !

[Bill Miller]

yeah, I ask because Z-film imagery on my MPI DVD is no where near as sharp as what you posted in the above clip. Leads me to believe some *unsharp-mask* process was done someplace... What software was used for 3:2 pulldown removal? and did the final Z-product work out to 18.3fps?

I am sure that the processes used by MPI and they caused a loss of sharpness to their images has been discussed several times now. One reference to this was over the Life Magazine images being sharper and having better color tones than MPI's.

I am also glad that Frank has taken the time to put the Nix and Zapruder films in sinc with one another. So now we have confirmation that the two films at the time of the kill shot are in sinc and that experts have stated that the images on the said in-camera original Zapruder film are sharp, which as has been pointed out even with 1st generation copies - they would be slightly blurred. This should now start making people realize that the Zapruder film HAS NOT been altered in the manner that has been suggested in recent years.

Bill Miller

PS: The reason I asked John in his opening post where his image(s) were ... was because this is what I saw and still see on my computer screen when I read his post ....

Edited January 14, 2007 by Bill Miller

[David G. Healy]

'Frank Agbat' wrote:

The joys of NTSC and film sources...

The following frames are from an NTSC DVD source. The frame number is relative to the beginning of the video file, not to the actual film source.

To reduce this to purely progressive video:

Remove:

- frame 353: it contains no unique information. It is a combo of two other frames

- frame 356: duplicate

- frame 358: duplicate

The result is non-interlaced progressive video. This is the Inverse Telecine process "de-automated".

********

Frank,

Help me out here; the below is from a Ultility (Cinema Tools) a program I use when converting 2/4bit film transfers to digital videotape for posting in Apple's SHAKE for composing and Apple's Final Cut Pro .

Reverse Telecine

The Reverse Telecine feature (for NTSC transfers only) provides a means of removing

the extra fields added during the 3:2 pull-down process of the telecine transfer. You

need to do this when you intend to edit the video at 23.98 fps. See “Frame Rate Basics”

on page 22 for information about what a 3:2 pull-down is and why you might want to

reverse it. See “Reversing the Telecine Pull-Down” on page 125 for details about its use.

Note: The Reverse Telecine feature cannot be used with temporally compressed video

such as MPEG-2 format video. *

*=emphasis mine. In the above Cinema Tools comment Frank, what do you make of the "cannot" MPEG-2 comment?

The MPI video is MPEG-2 content, correct? What's given is this: MPI utilized either 35mm or 4x5 trannies (as demonstrated on their DVD) of the NARA Z-film (rated by B&H and FBI at 18.3fps), those good folks made their best pass at reassembling the 35mm or 4x5 trannies into the new (NTSC 29.97fps MPEG-2 version) and improved [over the original] 18.3fps Z-film. This process is pretty much explained ion the MPI-DVD itself (less the frame rate and NTSC commentary)? Am I pretty much right on, so far, Frank?

another note: I believe MPI used After Effects software to reassemble the frames...

All of this frame-drop frame, 3:2 pulldown, DVD-MPEG2 nonesense could be eliminated if we had access to the *new-1998*35mm frames of the actual in-camera original Z-film...

However, if we're going to remove the pull down added to the MPI MPEG-2 DVD imagery, let's get started with a complete understanding of what the film provenence used on this boards assassination/Dealey Plaza related examples ARE...

Also in the same comment: 29.97 NTSC can be substituted for 23.98- red above

[Frank Agbat]

Frank,

Reverse Telecine

The Reverse Telecine feature (for NTSC transfers only) provides a means of removing

the extra fields added during the 3:2 pull-down process of the telecine transfer. You

need to do this when you intend to edit the video at 23.98 fps. See “Frame Rate Basics”

on page 22 for information about what a 3:2 pull-down is and why you might want to

reverse it. See “Reversing the Telecine Pull-Down” on page 125 for details about its use.

Note: The Reverse Telecine feature cannot be used with temporally compressed video

such as MPEG-2 format video. *

*=emphasis mine. In the above Cinema Tools comment Frank, what do you make of the "cannot" MPEG-2 comment?

David,

I'll address your message in two parts for (hopefully) the sake of clarity.

I'm not personally familiar with that particular Apple tool, as I don't use Apples for anything. However, I' sure their comment doesn't mean that an MPEG-2 source cannot be converted to a progressive format. It may be that this particular tool cannot do it *directly* from an MPEG2 source.

MPEG-2 is a temporal compression technology. Frames in an MPEG2 video file are of three different types:

I-Frame (Intra-coded frame): This is a compressed, but "full" frame, that doesn't depend on any of the frames that preceed or follow it.

P-Frame (Predictive frame): This is a delta frame, that contains information that has changed relative to the preceding I frame.

B-Frame (Bi-directional predictive frame): Another variant of a delta frame, these frames look both ways - to the following and preceding frames.

The MPEG2 standard organizes these frames into what is called a "Group of Pictures" (GOP), which for most DVDs is: IBB PBB PBB PBB PBP. (The pattern then starts again. Every 15 MPEG2 frames is an I frame in the default pattern).

Now -- if I want to look at individual frames within an MPEG2 stream, it is up to the software to be able to build each and every frame in full, because as I mentioned before, computers deal with progressive frames. So, the software working with the MPEG2 stream must be able to build full frames even though any given MPEG2 frame may not be truly "complete". It accomplishes this by starting with the nearest preceding I-frame and building successive frames until the desired frame is built. This is among the many reasons that MPEG2 is NOT the desired format for performing video edits. Many software packages, consumer recording devices, etc, that work with MPEG2 allow breaks ONLY on I-frame boundaries -- every 15 frames.

Nevertheless, it is completely possible to recover purely progressive output from an MPEG2 source. It might, however, require two steps to do so -- initially converting the MPEG2 source into another format that is not a temporal compression technology. This is precisely what I did when I converted the DVD VOB files (which are MPEG2 files) into a lossless-compression AVI file.

The Apple software you have probably requires a non-temporal input source to perform IVTC. Just convert the MPEG2 to a different format first. Then you can recover the progressive content via IVTC.

[Frank Agbat]

The MPI video is MPEG-2 content, correct? What's given is this: MPI utilized either 35mm or 4x5 trannies (as demonstrated on their DVD) of the NARA Z-film (rated by B&H and FBI at 18.3fps), those good folks made their best pass at reassembling the 35mm or 4x5 trannies into the new (NTSC 29.97fps MPEG-2 version) and improved [over the original] 18.3fps Z-film. This process is pretty much explained ion the MPI-DVD itself (less the frame rate and NTSC commentary)? Am I pretty much right on, so far, Frank?

another note: I believe MPI used After Effects software to reassemble the frames...

All of this frame-drop frame, 3:2 pulldown, DVD-MPEG2 nonesense could be eliminated if we had access to the *new-1998*35mm frames of the actual in-camera original Z-film...

However, if we're going to remove the pull down added to the MPI MPEG-2 DVD imagery, let's get started with a complete understanding of what the film provenence used on this boards assassination/Dealey Plaza related examples ARE...

Also in the same comment: 29.97 NTSC can be substituted for 23.98- red above

Of course, the MPI video is MPEG-2 content. The largest issue with the DVD source has nothing to do with Inverse Telecine, Interlacing, Pull-down, Progressiveness, frame-rates, and the like. These are nearly non-issues, as fully progressive frames can absolutely, positively be extracted from the source.

You hit on the real issue here: "All of this frame-drop frame, 3:2 pulldown, DVD-MPEG2 nonesense could be eliminated if we had access to the *new-1998*35mm frames of the actual in-camera original Z-film..." From your mouth to God's ears! The biggest issue with the MPI DVD is the RESOLUTION and the LOSSY nature of MPEG-2 compression.

The DVD spec is ONLY 720x480 resolution, and MPEG-2 is a LOSSY compression technology. MPI even used a superior non-standard GOP on their DVD

(IB PB PB PB PB PB P) (God, how big of a loser am I for knowing that) to improve the quality. However, the MPEG2 standard is lossy even at max bit rate and with a superior GOP. 720x480 looks great on a TV, looks OK on an HDTV, and OK on a monitor. However, compared to what should be resolution of the scanned 4x5 trannies, it should be very low. The best thing for the research community would be access to loss-free stills of the individual frame scans.

[Jack White]

The MPI video is MPEG-2 content, correct? What's given is this: MPI utilized either 35mm or 4x5 trannies (as demonstrated on their DVD) of the NARA Z-film (rated by B&H and FBI at 18.3fps), those good folks made their best pass at reassembling the 35mm or 4x5 trannies into the new (NTSC 29.97fps MPEG-2 version) and improved [over the original] 18.3fps Z-film. This process is pretty much explained ion the MPI-DVD itself (less the frame rate and NTSC commentary)? Am I pretty much right on, so far, Frank?

another note: I believe MPI used After Effects software to reassemble the frames...

All of this frame-drop frame, 3:2 pulldown, DVD-MPEG2 nonesense could be eliminated if we had access to the *new-1998*35mm frames of the actual in-camera original Z-film...

However, if we're going to remove the pull down added to the MPI MPEG-2 DVD imagery, let's get started with a complete understanding of what the film provenence used on this boards assassination/Dealey Plaza related examples ARE...

Also in the same comment: 29.97 NTSC can be substituted for 23.98- red above

Of course, the MPI video is MPEG-2 content. The largest issue with the DVD source has nothing to do with Inverse Telecine, Interlacing, Pull-down, Progressiveness, frame-rates, and the like. These are nearly non-issues, as fully progressive frames can absolutely, positively be extracted from the source.

You hit on the real issue here: "All of this frame-drop frame, 3:2 pulldown, DVD-MPEG2 nonesense could be eliminated if we had access to the *new-1998*35mm frames of the actual in-camera original Z-film..." From your mouth to God's ears! The biggest issue with the MPI DVD is the RESOLUTION and the LOSSY nature of MPEG-2 compression.

The DVD spec is ONLY 720x480 resolution, and MPEG-2 is a LOSSY compression technology. MPI even used a superior non-standard GOP on their DVD

(IB PB PB PB PB PB P) (God, how big of a loser am I for knowing that) to improve the quality. However, the MPEG2 standard is lossy even at max bit rate and with a superior GOP. 720x480 looks great on a TV, looks OK on an HDTV, and OK on a monitor. However, compared to what should be resolution of the scanned 4x5 trannies, it should be very low. The best thing for the research community would be access to loss-free stills of the individual frame scans.

Fantastic technical info from Frank and David, and I am glad SOMEBODY KNOWS it.

I at least understand now why a saved frame from a computer image may be a compromise

instead of what an actual frame represents.

The main point is that as a photographer, I know that ALL COMPUTER IMAGES are "LOSSY"

since they are made up of pixels, the modern equivalent of halftone dots. Only an ORIGINAL

print or transparency or excellent continuous tone copy contains ALL of the image.

Thanks, guys, for the explanation.

Jack