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Oswald Leaving TSBD?


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#1051 Thomas Graves

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 12:51 AM

 

 

 

 

 

While I don't rule out Baker and Truly encountering someone else on the fourth floor - a man in a brown sports coat - for instance, the idea that Baker could mistake the second floor lunchroom encounter with another floor is impossible - unless he was totally lying, in which case we can't believe anything he says.

 

But Baker and Truly's WC testimony rules out their encountering someone else on the fourth floor.

If Baker and Truly are trustworthy witnesses, as you keep insisting, why don't you rule out a fourth floor encounter?

Are you saying they might have lied to the WC?

 

 

[...]

 

Did Truly lie? 

 

I don't know, but don't think so. He didn't have to, as if he did lie he would have seen Oswald go through the lunchroom door and would have kept Lumpkin's key role out of it.  

 

 

Bill,

 

If Truly had lied and said he'd seen Oswald go through what you call "the lunchroom door," how would that have kept Lumpkin "out of it?" 

 

BK: TOMMY, THEY AREN'T NECESSARILY RELATED, JUST TWO ITEMS THAT IF TRULY'S BEHAVIOR WAS SCRIPTED, HE SHOULD HAVE SEEN OSWALD GO THROUGH THE DOOR, AND LUMPKIN'S ROLE WOULD HAVE BEEN INVESTIGATED - AND I BELIEVE SUPPRESSED. 

 

As I understand it, Truly claimed that he witnessed Baker talking to Oswald (and vouched for Oswald) in the second floor lunchroom and then, about ten minutes later, noticed that Oswald was missing. Then Truly called the warehouse and got Oswald's address, phone number, and physical description.  Then he told Lumpkin that Oswald was missing, and Lumpkin suggested that he tell Fritz, which Truly did. 

 

So how does Truly's telling the truth (not seeing) or lying (seeing) Oswald walk through "the lunchroom door" have anything to do with the chain of events I've just outlined, given the fact that Truly claimed that he not only witnessed Oswald in the lunchroom but vouched for him there, as well? 

 

What do you think Lumpkin would have done regarding Oswald if Truly hadn't mentioned to him that Oswald was missing?  Do you think Lumpkin would have said to Truly, "Say, Roy, is your temporary employee who used to live in Russia, that Lee Harvey Oswald guy, missing by any chance?"

 

Thank you,

--Tommy  :sun

 

PS  Every time I click on your two links, I get the error message "Server Not Found -- Firefox can't find the server at  www.jfkcountercoup.blogspot.

 

 

I don't know what Truly would have done if Lumpkin didn't get him to go see Fritz, and I don't know what Lumpkin would have done if Truly didn't tell him about the suddenly and mysteriously missing employee who he had seen on the second floor ten minutes earlier. I don't think that Oswald was the only employee missing, as some of them, if you read their statements - reported they were not permitted back in the building after going out to see the motorcade. So Oswald couldn't have been the only missing employee. 

 

I don't know the answers, I'm just asking questions myself. 

 

And I don't know how to fix the link problem, but blogspot is run by Google and if you go through Google first you should be able to get there. 

 

But I will be leaving this subject soon, and devoting my time to the Air Force One tapes, though I hope you all keep trying to figure it out. 

 

BK 

 

And isn't my blog link posted by Ed Forum just below my biography? 

 

 

[emphasis added by T. Graves]

 

Bill,

 

When, during his WC testimony, Truly was asked if Oswald was the only person missing, Truly said that Oswald was the only one that he knew of at the time

 

Do you think that Truly, 11 to 13 minutes after the assassination, was aware of other TSBD employees who were also missing?

 

It does, however, cast Truly in a bad light when he says that no complete roll call was taken that afternoon.

 

Mr. TRULY. When I noticed this boy was missing, I told Chief Lumpkin that "We have a man here that's missing." I said, "It my not mean anything, but he isn't here." I first called down to the other warehouse and had Mr. Akin pull the application of the boy so I could get--quickly get his address in Irving and his general description, so I could be more accurate than I would be.
Mr. BALL. Was he the only man missing?
Mr. TRULY. The only one I noticed at that time. Now, I think there was one or two more, possibly Charles Givens, but I had seen him out in front walking up the street just before the firing of the gun.

Mr. BALL. But walking which way?
Mr. TRULY. The last time I saw him, he was walking across Houston Street, east on Elm.
Mr. BALL. Did you make a check of your employees afterwards?
Mr. TRULY. No, no; not complete.
No, I just saw the group of the employees over there on the floor and I noticed this boy wasn't with them. With no thought in my mind except that I had seen him a short time before in the building, I noticed he wasn't there.
Mr. BALL. What do you mean "a short time before"?
Mr. TRULY. I would say 10 or 12 minutes.
Mr. BALL. You mean that's when you saw him in the lunchroom?
Mr. TRULY. In the lunchroom.
Mr. BALL. And you noticed he wasn't over there?
Mr. TRULY. Well, I asked Bill Shelley if he had seen him around and he said "No."

 

--Tommy  :sun

 

PS   Hmmmm.  Come to think of it, It is interesting that Truly didn't claim to have noticed by himself that Oswald was missing, but that he asked the mysterious Bill Shelly about Oswald's whereabouts.   So, why did he ask Shelly if he'd recently seen Oswald?  Because Oswald was kinda on his mind after having (allegedly) seen him a few minutes earlier in the second floor lunchroom?


Edited by Thomas Graves, 15 October 2013 - 02:36 AM.


#1052 Ken Davies

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 01:03 AM

Forrest Gump!



#1053 Chris Newton

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 01:55 AM

Mr. TRULY. I wouldn't know. I think it must have been around the rifle was found, because I was not on the sixth floor at that time, but when told--let's go back a few minutes--pardon me--I told Chief Lumpkin..

 

 

Almost spilled the beans there Mr. Truly?

 

--let's go back a few minutes--pardon me--

 

 

Is this the the "oh, crap - gotta stick to the story" moment?



#1054 Robert Prudhomme

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 02:10 AM

Would Truly and Lumpkin have been embarrassed if Oswald had wandered down from the 5th floor with a book order he had been working on? They didn't exactly track his whereabouts after seeing him on the 2nd floor.

#1055 Thomas Graves

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 02:40 AM

Would Truly and Lumpkin have been embarrassed if Oswald had wandered down from the 5th floor with a book order he had been working on? They didn't exactly track his whereabouts after seeing him on the 2nd floor.

 

Good point, Robert,  I wonder if anyone went back up to the second floor lunchroom to see if Oswald was still "there."

 

--Tommy  :sun



#1056 Robert Prudhomme

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 03:03 AM

Or the 3rd, 4th or 5th floors.

#1057 Chris Newton

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 04:06 AM

Robert & Tommy,

 

By Oswald's own admission he walked out the front door and as he was leaving he directed someone (whom he thought ID'ed themselves as SS) to the phones.

 

That that person (or persons) had just walked in or was already in the lobby isn't clear. What is clear is that he left before the building was secure. How does that fit with the timeline of Truly miraculously picking Oswald (with Lumpkin's assistance maybe) out of the proverbial hat and reporting it to the Chief.



#1058 Ian Kingsbury

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 09:35 AM

There is also the possibility the Sixth Floor sniper was a cop, as that would explain why he was in no hurry to leave and that the plan was to just blend in with those searching the building after it was sealed.

 
Hey Bill, just a theory but considering witness testimony of there being two men seen in the windows, and the reports of the "fake" SS agents in and around the building and the two unidentified "plain clothes" coming down the stairs. I'm thinking it was a classic sniper team. Shooter and Spotter. The Shooter hides the weapon and the spotter rearranges the boxes to resemble a fighting position and frame "the patsy". This gives them time to complete both actions and then head down the stairs. They split up, one goes out the back and one goes out the front. If they encounter anyone they can show their ID and blend in and walk away. Would you be suspicious if a you encountered a stranger and they flashed a badge and asked for a phone? Brilliant.



Chris

This is similar in nature to Dougherty's "FBI " man , and only the timing
And the oddness of Dougherty's testimony as to when it occured.
Also if Baker sticks to his first day affadavit and the brown jacket guy was there
This could be connected to Denhams discovery of a man "acting suspiciously"
On the 3rd floor, as reported by Trantham in his HSCA report.

#1059 Sean Murphy

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 11:12 AM

I think the conundrum as to why Truly reported Oswald so soon after having seen him at the TSBD can be resolved:

 

  • He encountered this man--Oswald/Prayer Man--at the front entrance as he and the officer were racing into the building.
  • He subsequently noticed that Oswald was gone and, not realising that Oswald had actually been at the front entrance for the motorcade itself, erroneously assumed that he and the officer had seen him just as he was coming out to the front entrance.
  • Oswald's apparent quick exit, coming so immediately after the shots, struck Truly as strange in retrospect
  • So he reported the matter to Lumpkin/Fritz.
  • The crucial point: he was not remotely suggesting that Oswald might have been the shooter or anything, just that his quick exit and subsequent disappearance might have betokened involvement in some way.

 

The above also explains the reports given by the police to news reporters that evening: Oswald was seen leaving the building.

 

The police were basing this on Truly's erroneous impression.


Edited by Sean Murphy, 15 October 2013 - 11:13 AM.


#1060 Chris Newton

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 02:59 PM

The police were basing this on Truly's erroneous impression

 

 

Or it was Lumpkin who asked Truly "Hey where's Oswald?" because Lumpkin was going to finger him anyway and that Oswald had left just made his task more convincing.

 

If you look at the big picture and realize Lumpkin's Army Reserve C.O. was Jack Crichton, former WW2 European OSS Officer, who had a hand in planning the motorcade route then it becomes clear that Lumpkin might have been told ahead of time to finger Oswald. Asst. Chief Lumpkin was also in charge of all the pictures and video collected by the DPD in the investigation. What happened to "Babushka Lady's" film? Ask Lumpkin. Backyard Photos? Lumpkin.

 

That Crichton wouldn't know Allen Dulles and Angleton is a stretch. He was in the same theater as they were and the OSS was a very close "family". So for those looking in that direction for a conspiracy, the shoe fits.



#1061 Thomas Graves

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 05:57 PM

 

The police were basing this on Truly's erroneous impression

 

 

Or it was Lumpkin who asked Truly "Hey where's Oswald?" because Lumpkin was going to finger him anyway and that Oswald had left just made his task more convincing.

 

If you look at the big picture and realize Lumpkin's Army Reserve C.O. was Jack Crichton, former WW2 European OSS Officer, who had a hand in planning the motorcade route then it becomes clear that Lumpkin might have been told ahead of time to finger Oswald. Asst. Chief Lumpkin was also in charge of all the pictures and video collected by the DPD in the investigation. What happened to "Babushka Lady's" film? Ask Lumpkin. Backyard Photos? Lumpkin.

 

That Crichton wouldn't know Allen Dulles and Angleton is a stretch. He was in the same theater as they were and the OSS was a very close "family". So for those looking in that direction for a conspiracy, the shoe fits.

 

 

Chris,

 

I guess that makes more sense than Truly's not noticing (or noticing) that Oswald was missing 15 to 20 minutes after the assassination and then asking Bill Shelley if he'd seen him around.

 

When Shelley said "no," why didn't Truly have someone go back upstairs, particularly to the second floor lunchroom, and look for Oswald?

 

Had workaholic Jack Dougherty already been accounted for, or was he still upstairs like Oswald, as far as Truly knew, could have been?

 

Had all the TSBD floors been "swept" by that time?

 

--Tommy  :sun


Edited by Thomas Graves, 15 October 2013 - 08:33 PM.


#1062 Paul Brancato

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 06:13 PM

I think Chris might have put his finger on it. Lumpkin and Crichton. Makes sense.

#1063 Chris Newton

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 07:38 PM

So if we take this a step further back:

 

Mrs. Paine puts Oswald in the TSBD in the second week of October (he applies for the job 50 years ago today). To those that suggest that Mrs. Paine, the ordinary housewife, just wanted to learn russian and so, for entirely altruistic reasons, put up the wife and kids of CIA asset Oswald - this makes my head explode.

 

*** Note Mrs. Paines' father is former USIA. Mrs. Paine has since been fingered by people unrelated to this event, in her later life, as CIA.  A personal anecdote: My grandfather was in the COI, then the OSS, then OWI with an Army cover, then USIA and the State Department. He was ostensibly described as a counter-insurgency expert although all those agencies (listed after the OSS) are primarily involved in "white propaganda". If you're interested in where USIA came from: http://www.archives....groups/306.html

 

Angleton/Dulles connection?  Yes/No (I put a big circle around Yes - and, yes, my grandfather knew both those men too)

 

 

Then we have the Lumpkin / Crichton / Whitmeyer / Powell crew:

 

  • Involved in motorcade planning (Crichton)
  • Ordered extra security of 488th to stand down (Whitmeyer/Crichton)
  • Drove lead car in motorcade (ensuring route was taken?) (Lumpkin/Whitmeyer)
  • Maybe fingered Oswald (Lumpkin)
  • Just happens to be in the right spot at the right time and only releases one of the pictures he took (Powell)
  • Controls DPD photographic evidence (Lumpkin)

 

Angleton/Dulles connection?  Yes/No  (I put a big circle around Yes)


Edited by Chris Newton, 15 October 2013 - 10:21 PM.


#1064 Robert Prudhomme

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 06:56 AM

Quote from Sean Murphy:

"•He subsequently noticed that Oswald was gone and, not realising that Oswald had actually been at the front entrance for the motorcade itself, erroneously assumed that he and the officer had seen him just as he was coming out to the front entrance."

As Truly was not on the front steps of the TSBD during the passing of the motorcade, what would make him think Oswald had not been on the steps the entire time?

#1065 Sean Murphy

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 07:21 AM

Quote from Sean Murphy:

"•He subsequently noticed that Oswald was gone and, not realising that Oswald had actually been at the front entrance for the motorcade itself, erroneously assumed that he and the officer had seen him just as he was coming out to the front entrance."

As Truly was not on the front steps of the TSBD during the passing of the motorcade, what would make him think Oswald had not been on the steps the entire time?

 

Robert, the fact that no one else on the steps for the motorcade had noticed Oswald while JFK was passing the building.






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