The vanishing pool of blood

[Ron Ecker]

My interest in the pool of blood remains the same - the man on the stairs that was removed - and whether or not he was one of the shooters that got winged but managed to get away.

But the man to whom you refer was on the stairs, not at the top on the sidewalk where the pool of blood was. I come back to the improbability of someone standing or lying at the top long enough to leave that much blood and yet not be seen, nor leaving any blood drops while running, staggering, or being toted away, still unobserved.

It's also odd that of all the citizens, DPD, and sheriff's officers who swarmed over the knoll, we have reports from only two people (Coley and Couch) that there was a pool of blood there. Would not a single officer have made note of it in all of the early statements, before the LN scenario set in? Would not a single one of the photographers running around have photographed what looked like a pool of blood?

I think there are problems with this pool of blood that basically make it a dead-end issue.

[Trygve V. Jensen]

Frontline produced a three part series called "Who was Lee Harvey Oswald". 17 minutes out in part 3,are some very short outtakes from different news agencies. Included is the few Darnell frames in the best quality I have seen so far. One can be inclined that to believe that it certainly is a pool of something there. Also on the steps (from the "pool" -leading up and to the right (south/southwest)),something is visible. Something that could resemble stains of some kind. Dirt,grass,soda,blood - I won't speculate, as it for all I know can be some result of grain,object,etc. - made in the process of developing the film. I do not have sufficient expertise to determine if it is anything at all really. If I should guess at this point in time,I could maybe guess that it is simply dirt coming from the vast amount of people running up there.

Trying to find an exact spot of this pool of something, with the help of the testimonies can lead to a different conclution every time one reads them it seems.

These spots/stains are certaintly more visible if viewing the clip alltogether,and not especially particularly in this frame I post now. Sadly I have some issues with my videocodecs right now,and are trying to solve the problem.

I am sure other members here must be aware of this series. It is a portrait of Oswald,and features Gerald Posner,Dale Myers and Patricia (McMillan?). It is basically portraying Oswald as the usual lone nut. Extensive interviews with Ruth and Michael Paine, and James Hosty amongst others, are interesting though.

Edited January 12, 2008 by Trygve V. Jensen

[Miles Scull]

Sadly I have some issues with my videocodecs right now,and are trying to solve the problem.

Trygve,

Thanks for the excellent Darnell frame!

By any chance, can you post any of the other Darnell frames in this quality?

WOW!

[Trygve V. Jensen]

Thanks Miles,I can post this one for now, - not sure it's as clear as the other one.

------------------------------------------

Mr.Belin. It would have been somewhere along that park area there?

Mr.Couch. Right

Is it somehow possible that Couch did not know the geography of Dealey Plaza,and what he thought was westwards,were instead southwards?

[Miles Scull]

Thanks Miles,I can post this one for now,

Is it somehow possible that Couch did not know the geography of Dealey Plaza,and what he thought was westwards,were instead southwards?

Also on the steps (from the "pool" -leading up and to the right (south/southwest)),something is visible. Something that could resemble stains of some kind. Dirt,grass,soda,blood - I won't speculate, as it for all I know can be some result of grain,object,etc. - made in the process of developing the film. I do not have sufficient expertise to determine if it is anything at all really. If I should guess at this point in time,I could maybe guess that it is simply dirt coming from the vast amount of people running up there.

Trygve,

Could you say, in a little more detail please, where exactly is this "something" you see? Thanks much.

See (click on Darnall Frame below):

Darnell Frame

[Jack White]

Just thinking aloud. Perhaps one of the perpetrators / collaborators had some blood in a container for use in some possible scenario version. Most people know blood from other liquids of similar color, and especially if they taste it! The location is odd, wherever it is exactly for the 'scenario' we were presented with. Perhaps this blood for planting spilled by accident when the person with it fled. I find it unlikely, though possible, another stray bullet hit someone involved, so they didn't report it, but fled, or were helped away. Bloody endless, the variations in this piece....[Dallas].

Peter...I had that thought long ago. Pools of blood in four locations, but no victims, no reason

for blood there, no bodies or wounded...but all who saw it thought it was blood.

I wondered whether the blood was planted to create confusion or for another scenario.

Jack

[Trygve V. Jensen]

I tried to explain in words,and those things what I call something might just as well be my eyes,deceiving me.

I did not see the "stains" or whatever my eyes delludes me to believe it to be, when extracting that frame in particular,but when I watched the entire clip in slow motion.

Maybe it was an mis-statement to say that what I see as stains (of what very well may be dirt from underneath the shoes of all the spectators),are "leading" towards that direction. Dark spots. Again I have to remind that I feel am not educated enough within these fields extensive studies,to make any competent sort of conclusive opinion. My main point was to make aware of what I perceive, share the information,and a reference to where this is taken from.

Not all frames are this clear,and I am still trying to extract that clip in its entirety without loss of of quality,and as I really have severe problems with my OS,my videocodecs,and the compatibility of those towards the editor I am trying to convert to at the moment.

I do have a 20MB extract now I am trying to compare to the source,if usable. But I'll see what I can do about trying to locate and install the lossless codecs,I seem to have lost due to formatting.

The results I get now,as I am trying to extract is not as good as I could have wished.

Again it could very well may be nothing,or dirt or whatever. I was just a sidenote. What I was originally interested in was the "pool of blood" as described by the witnesses and its true location. And why it was there in the first place.

Not much to get out of any of these captures but I'll post anyway. As you can see from these,it is not much to conclude,maybe other that than I need glasses.

This footage was apparently also converted to be shown on TV,and if I understood it right, I would prefer to be able to work with progressive frames.

In the end I wanted to make aware of that part 3 series,and it is both typical and a shame if it is right what you say; that it is not available. The necessity of access to information is there. But its not there. The access. As an example I tried to get a hold on the Muchmore film enhanced by Archangel but to no avail.

Edited January 12, 2008 by Trygve V. Jensen

[Miles Scull]

I tried to explain in words,and those things what I call something might just as well be my eyes,deceiving me.

Many thanks for reply.

Yes, those marks might be footprints from persons who walked through the liquid.

Again, many thanks & please advise if your work on the clip yeilds good results. Hope so!

[Robin Unger]

H Trygve.

Can you post a link to your " Video " Website

[Trygve V. Jensen]

Hi Robin,if you are referring to my YouTube- channel it is in my signature. http://youtube.com/profile?user=10Garmonbozia01

Footage from this particular series made by Frontline, I haven't gotten to extract in the manner I wanted yet. I did not purchase it,but got a copy sent to me by an individual. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/oswald/

[Michael Clark]

 

[Joe Bauer]

The Jerry Coley interview begs interesting and important questions about the so-called "pool of blood" that was seen and photographed at the top of the grassy knoll Pergola stairs right after the shooting ( and the intimidation and threats directed toward his family as a result of his talking about it as reported by everyone's favorite super reporter Hugh "Clark Kent" Aynesworth )   but it's Coley's recollections of Jack Ruby's comings and goings and remaining so long at the advertising offices of the Dallas Morning News on the day of the assassination that are just as important.

I  assume several JFK assassination researchers have developed many time line summaries of Ruby's whereabouts and actions that day, and I wonder if these correlate with Jerry Coley's memories.

In reading Jack Ruby's Warren Commission testimony recounting his whereabouts and actions that morning through early afternoon at the Dallas Morning News, Ruby ( in his typically nervous, rambling, disjointed almost incoherent manner ) gives very different takes on his presence there than Coley describes.

I have copied and pasted Ruby's WC testimony regards this subject at the end of this posting to show these discrepancies.

Coley says Ruby came into their Dallas Morning News offices at 8:am.

Ruby states in his WC testimony that he arrived there at 10:30 to 11:00 am.

That's a huge time gap.

Ruby describes having dinner Thursday evening ( 11,21,1963 ) at the Egyptian restaurant when " a fellow comes over to the table." Ruby then states that this fellow tried to invite him to visit another club two doors down and Ruby refused because the owner of this club had recently taken a band away from him that had been with Ruby at the Carousel for 7 years. 

Ruby states that the fellow that invited him to this club the previous evening had a desk at the Dallas Morning News ( he doesn't mention his name )  but relates that this fellow handled advertising for this other club, and that he wanted to go apologize to him for turning him down and that this took 20 or 25  minutes of his time there.

Ruby says this D M News ad person apologized back.

Ruby rambles on about other innocuous and scattered thought stuff ( retrieving a brochure, working on his Carousel ads) in his effort of trying to explain his prolonged presence in that building that morning and during the time of the motorcade passing through without him personally going out to watch it, as Coley and thousands of other Dallas residents enthusiastically did.

To me, Ruby doing so clearly reveals he knows that his longer than normal presence in that building that day during all the heightened activity is a suspicion arousing problem for him and his 11,22,1963 location and activity story.

Ruby then gives this explanation as to why he didn't go outside of the Dallas Morning News building to personally see his "beloved president" and his beautiful wife when they drove by mere feet away and he could see them in the flesh.

He says simply: " I don't want to go where there is big crowds."

Really?  

Wasn't there a big super packed crowd around and in the Dallas PD building all that Friday night that Ruby thrust himself into?

How about the large crowd of people assembled around and across the street from the Dallas PD building basement entrance that Ruby decided to walk to and through on Sunday morning and again into that super crowded PD basement?

What about large crowd boxing matches that were occasionally held in the Dallas area that Ruby attended?

What about the crowds at the ice skating rink. Were they always sparse?

This explanation is as stupid and ridiculous as Ruby's "saving Jackie Kennedy the ordeal of a trial" one he gave to explain why he shot Oswald. 

Coleys recollection of the time line of Jack Ruby's Friday morning visit to the D M News states Ruby came into their offices at 8:00 am. Not 10:30 to 11:00 AM.

Coley then says he had to run out to do some advertising business at 9:00 am and Ruby was still there at the DM News Advertising offices when he left...and that Ruby was still there when Coley came back at 11:00 am.

Now, that leaves open the possibility that Ruby may have left the D M News building himself after Coley left...and returned some time before Coley returned, or, Ruby did remain there for those two hours. Big questions there.

Then Coley states he and his friend left again to go down two or three blocks to personally see JFK and Jackie up close as their motorcade limo drove by.

Then all hell breaks out and Coley describes what he and his friend saw and did the next 15 minutes or so in all the Dealey Plaza and grassy knoll chaos.

Coley then states he returned to his office and there again is Jack Ruby.

One wonders if Ruby heard all the sirens ( how could he not have ? ) and perhaps looked out any window to see the massive energetic police response that was going on all around from 12:30 pm and that continued for the next couple of hours. If he did, one is forced to ask...why this police and action loving guy didn't even think to go outside for even a few minutes to see and ask what all the unprecedented commotion was about?

If Jerry Coleys recollections are even close to accurate regarding his interactions with Jack Ruby on 11,22,1963, then one is forced to seriously consider that Jack Ruby's much longer than usual stay in the Dallas Morning News Advertising offices ( and laughable reason why he didn't engage in the enthusiastic outdoor close up viewing of his "beloved President and Jackie )  was more logically a JFK shooting time location and activity alibi than any other excuse Ruby gave in his WC testimony.

But even if educated and coherent and mentally balanced Jerry Coley had given this information to the Warren Commission back in 1964, my guess is that they would have stated Coley must have simply been mistaken about all that he had seen and his interactions with Ruby on 11,22,1963 and believed Ruby and his mentally unbalanced testimony instead.

Just like they did with Seth Kantor and his testimony of seeing and even talking with Jack Ruby at Parkland hospital that Friday afternoon.

JACK RUBY'S WARREN COMMISSION TESTIMONY:

Chief Justice WARREN. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before the Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? 
Mr. RUBY. I do. 
Chief Justice WARREN. Now will you please state whether the things you have just told us are true under your oath? 
Mr. RUBY. I do so state they are the truth. 
Chief Justice WARREN. Now you complete whatever story you want to tell. 
Mr. RUBY. All right. Thursday night I was having dinner at the Egyptian Restaurant on Mockingbird Lane, and a fellow comes over to the table. I was sitting with a guy by the name of Ralph Paul. He tried to invite me to the club a couple of doors down and I refused, because he had taken a band away from me that had been engaged for 7 years, and I felt it was a lost cause, that the club would be failing because of that, and I sort of excused myself and I refused to go over to the club.
We finished our dinner, and I went down to the club that I operated, the Carousel, and this particular master of ceremonies happened to be there at the time, and we discussed a few things.
And there is a columnist by the name of Tony Zoppi--and prior to that, I wrote out a full page copy of this build--I have the copies--as an emcee, and brought a picture and brochure, and Tony said, "I will write a story." This was done 2 days prior to this Thursday night.
So then I went down, so we discussed it and were very much disgusted with Tony because he only gave us a build of one or two lines.
Well, I retired that night after closing the club. Then I knew I wanted to go back to the Morning News Building to get the brochure I left, and also this complete page of longhand writing describing the various talents of this Bill DeMar.
I picked up the brochure that Friday morning, and I also had business at the News Building on Friday because that is the start of the weekend, which is very lucrative, the weekend.
I have ways of making my ads of where they have a way of selling the product I am producing or putting on on the show.
So I went down there Friday morning to Tony Zoppi's office, and they said he went to New Orleans for a couple of days.
I picked up the brochure. I believe I got downtown there at 10:30 or 11 o'clock that morning. And I took the brochure and then went into the main room where we compose our ads. That is the sales room where we placed our ads. And I remained there for a while. I started to write the copy of my ad. Now I go back to the same fellow that wanted me to come over to the club when we were having our dinner on Mockingbird at the Egyptian Lounge.
I came to the desk and I wanted to apologize and explain why I didn't accept his invitation last night. I wanted to explain, and that took about 20 or 25 minutes. All this is pertaining to everything prior to the terrible tragedy that happened.
I started to explain to him why I didn't want to go there, because this fellow mentioned--Tony, I think---I can't think of his last name of me having his band so many years, and I felt at the moment I didn't want to go over to the club because I didn't care to meet this fellow.
And he started to apologize, "Jack, I am sorry, I did work for the fellow and we have been advertising him for that club, and I am putting out a night club book."
I remained with him for 20 or 25 minutes talking there. I don't know whether my ad was completed or not. It was an ad on the Vegas and the Carousel.
My ads were completed, I believe, and after finishing my conversation with him, he left.
Suddenly the man that completes my ads for me, that helps me with it on occasion--but I usually make it up myself--but the person that takes the money for the ads--this is the reason it is so hard for me to meet a deadline when I get downtown to the News Building. And as a rule, I have to pay cash for my ads.
When you are in debt, it is necessary, and they will not put it in unless you pay cash.
And consequently, the weekend, I had been to town on that particular day. All this adds up later on, as I will state why I didn't go to the parade.
In the first place, I don't want to go where there is big crowds. I can't explain it to you. If I was interested, I would have seen it on television, our beloved President and all the parade that transpired.
But all that adds up why it is important for me to be in the News Building.
I owe the Government quite a bit of money, and it is doing business out of your pocket, supposedly, in the slang expression.
Well, John Newnam comes in, and evidently he took it for granted I finished my ad, and I don't recall if he paid for his ad, and suddenly there is some milling around. I think it was 12, or 15 minutes after 12, I don't recall what, but John Newnam said someone had been shot.
And I am sorry, I got carried away. It is the first time I got carried away, because I had been under pressure.
And someone else came running over and he said a Secret Service man was shot, or something to that effect.
And I am here in the middle with John Newnam, because Newnam isn't paying any attention to anyone else, and there is a lot of going back and forth.
So someone must have made a statement that Governor Connally was shot. I don't recall what was said. And I was in a state of hysteria, I mean.
You say, "Oh my God, it can't happen." You carry on crazy sayings.
There was a little television set in one office not far away from where I had been sitting at the desk. I ran over there and noticed a little boy and a little sister say, "I was standing right there when it happened." I mean, different things you hear on the television.
Then the phone started ringing off the desk and I heard John Newnam say people were complaining about the ad, why they accepted this ad.

(A tray of water and glasses was brought in.)

Thank you.
Has every witness been this hesitant in trying to explain their story? 
Chief Justice WARREN. You are doing very well. I can understand why you have to reflect upon a story of that length. 
Mr. RUBY. The phones were ringing off the desk calling various ads, and they were having a turmoil in that News Building because of a person by the name of Bernard Weissman placing that particular ad, a full page ad. I am sure you are familiar with the ad. 
Chief Justice WARREN. Yes; I am. 
Mr. RUBY. Criticizing a lot of things about our beloved President. Then John Newnam and I and another gentleman walked over to another part of the room, and I heard John Newnam say, "I told him not to take that ad." Something to that effect.
Then he said, "Well, you have seen him pay part cash and come back and pay the balance."
Now everything is very vague to me as to when this transpired; after they heard the President had been shot, or prior to that.
You know it's been a long time, and I am under a very bad mental strain here. 
Chief Justice WARREN. Yes. 
Mr. RUBY. From the time that we were told that the President was shot, 35 minutes later they said he had passed away. In the meantime, I became very emotional. I called my sister at home. She was carried away terribly bad. And John Newnam happened to be there, and I know it is a funny reaction you have, you want other people to feel that you feel emotionally disturbed the same way as other people, so I let John listen to the phone that my sister was crying hysterically.
And I said to John, I said, "John, I will have to leave Dallas." I don't know why I said that, but it is a funny reaction that you feel; the city is terribly let down by the tragedy that happened. And I said, "John, I am not opening up tonight."
And I don't know what else transpired there. I know people were just heartbroken.
I left the room. I may have left out a few things. Mr. Moore remembers probably more, but you come back and question me and maybe I can answer those questions.
I left the building and I went down and I got my car, and I couldn't stop crying, because naturally when I pulled up to a stoplight and other people would be adjacent to me, I wouldn't want them to see me crying, because it looked kind of artificial.
And I went to the club and I came up, and I may have made a couple of calls from there. I could have called my colored boy, Andy, down at the club. I could have--I don't know who else I would have called, but I could have, because it is so long now since my mind is very much warped now.
You think that literally?

Edited February 25, 2017 by Joe Bauer

[Michael Clark]

I made a voice memo of this Video thinking that I'll get it transcribed at some point. A couple things stand out to me, but I haven't listened to it in a month or so..

- Coley mentions that three DMN employees were privy to the scene of the blood and photos. He begins to mention them and explains that they died unexpectedly afterwards, he is cut-off by the interviewer and they do not return to the subject.

- Coley says that Ruby was still there at the office when he returned at 11ish AM. He seems certain that Jack was there the whole time but does not clearly state how he knows this. Certainly, he would have heard other employees, over the next week or so, or longer,  state that, indeed, Ruby had remained at the DMN throughout that morning.

-The WC testimony is another example of how Ruby is allowed to guide the hearing, sucking up the commission's time and basically say whatever he wants. It crazy.

Cheers, 

Michael

 

Edited February 25, 2017 by Michael Clark

[Denis Morissette]

Just some material you may have not seen. 1. Private message from Aynesworth 2. FB post by Aynewworth 3. From the Sprague Collection at the Georgetown University: From a 1967 interview of WFAA news editor A.J. L'Hoste in 1967. See the thread below for more info. 138. A.J. L’Hoste. “Couch saw blood at the same place as Jean Hill. He said 50-60 feet up from Elm St. and 10-15 feet from the TSBD corner (sw) / L’Hoste was on Main Street, 4 blocks from Houston. https://postimg.cc/image/k9qf1fvw7/  

Finally, when I was at NARA II in June, I listened to a few minutes of the live broadcast on old style audio reel of Dallas radio station KSKY in which the reporter from Parkland saying that an SS agent had been shot in Dealey Plaza. I know it is not a new thing.

[Michael Clark]

On 8/6/2018 at 12:32 AM, Denis Morissette said:

Just some material you may have not seen. 1. Private message from Aynesworth 2. FB post by Aynewworth 3. From the Sprague Collection at the Georgetown University: From a 1967 interview of WFAA news editor A.J. L'Hoste in 1967. See the thread below for more info. 138. A.J. L’Hoste. “Couch saw blood at the same place as Jean Hill. He said 50-60 feet up from Elm St. and 10-15 feet from the TSBD corner (sw) / L’Hoste was on Main Street, 4 blocks from Houston. https://postimg.cc/image/k9qf1fvw7/  

Finally, when I was at NARA II in June, I listened to a few minutes of the live broadcast on old style audio reel of Dallas radio station KSKY in which the reporter from Parkland saying that an SS agent had been shot in Dealey Plaza. I know it is not a new thing.

Jim Coley went to the pool of blood with Jim Hood, not Hugh Aynesworth. Jim hood put his finger in it and tasted it and said it was blood. That’s something you would do in 1963. Jim coley started getting threats the day that the story ran, through phone calls at his home. Jim Hood died in an unexplained plane crash 3 or 4 years later. It’s all in the youtube interview.