The Decline in Forum Activity

[David Josephs]

I cannot let DVP do this over and over and get away with it...

He cannot prove it was OSWALD's OWN rifle...

He can't prove or corroborate or authenticate ANY of the rifle evidence - yet you make such unbelieveably naive and insulting comments... are you really this lost ?

Plus, do CTers think that the DPD just happened to have at their disposal Oswald's own Mannlicher-Carcano rifle to plant in the building very shortly after the shooting

It is your place to get the rifle into the man's hands on the 6th floor David - go back as far as you like, Italy for all I care - as there is nothing you can do other than manufacture evidence (like your buds the FBI) to support what you keep claiming to be true.

If you could do that you would... instead you ramble on about what SHOULD have been or COULD have been.... instead of actually addressing what WAS.

HIDELL's coupon ordered a C20-T750, a scoped 36" TS rifle ordered by Kleins in Jan 1962, although they never got any TS rifles in January 1962... So the ads for a 36" scoped rifle starting in March 1962, BEFORE THE CANCELLED TS SHIPMENT... which rifles were shipped for those orders David?

Which rifle was shipped for ALL the orders of C20-T750 between March 1962 and Feb 1963 and where did they get their TS rifles? Unless they shipped the replaced FC rifle for the TS... yet they do not get rifle one until FEB 22, 1963.

I'll ask again David... for almost a year KLEINS advertised and sold (and presumably shipped) a C20-T750 described as a scoped 36" "carbine" - WHAT DID THEY SHIP FOR THESE ORDERS DAVID AND WHERE DID THEY GET THESE RIFLES? (but no worries I don't expect you to have the chops to address the question beyond the last time you ansered it - "Who cares about other orders" LMAO)

See DVP, you can't even prove what was processed at Kleins let alone get a rifle into Oswald's hands..... you remain a very poor WCR apologist who simply cannot pull it together to AUTHENTICATE any of the so called WCR evidence... so you're left doing the ole soft-shoe every time, hoping we're all mesmerized by the fancy footwork and not aware of the complete crap you offer up as an argument.

(although the gunsmith says only 36" rifles got a scope, and NO ONE talks to the shipping clerks, warehouse men, or ANY of the correct employees)

Mr. BELIN. Do you know who the person is that filled out this order?
Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; his initials are so indicated as "M.W."
Mr. BELIN. Would that be the name at the lower lefthand corner of Exhibit 1?
Mr. WALDMAN. It is.
Mr. BELIN. And that is who?
Mr. WALDMAN. Mitchell W. Westra.

Mr. BELIN. At that time was he an employee of your company?
Mr. WALDMAN. He was.
Mr. BELIN. Was he under your jurisdiction and supervision?
Mr. WALDMAN. He was not under my direct supervision, no. He was under the supervision of Sam Kasper.
Mr. BELIN. And where is Sam Kasper now?
Mr. WALDMAN. He may or may not be here.
Mr. BELIN. I don't mean this afternoon. Is he with the company?
Mr. WALDMAN. He is the vice president of our company.
Mr. BELIN. He is the other vice president of the company?
Mr. WALDMAN. Correct

You wanna guess whether the WC called Westra or Kasper? and maybe you heard of Feldsott and yet ANOTHER c2766?

Go back to bed Dave... your time has come and gone - all that's left is the comic entertainment you provide by defending the actual killers of the man...

[David Von Pein]

David Josephs' nice little rant above doesn't change the basic "rifle" facts concerning Lee Oswald's purchase of Carcano #C2766.

In order for Oswald to NOT be the purchaser of Carcano Rifle #C2766, it would mean that ALL of the paperwork associated with Oswald's/"Hidell's" rifle purchase was faked and manipulated (right down to Oswald's "fake" handwriting on ALL of the various documents pertaining to said purchase).

And no conspiracy theorist (not even David Josephs of northern California) has ever come within six miles of being about to prove that ANY of the Klein's paperwork was forged or planted or tainted to frame LHO.

And believing that all of that CORROBORATIVE paperwork (including the U.S. Postal Money Order made out in the exact amount needed to purchase the rifle [with scope] from Klein's Sporting Goods in Chicago) has somehow been falsely manufactured in order to frame an innocent man for the President's murder is--quite frankly--a very very silly idea.

And I always get a kick out of the conspiracy mongers who like to prop up Mitchell Westra's statement about Klein's never putting scopes on the 40-inch rifles. The CTers will always, invariably, leave out the part of Westra's statement where he says this:

"Undoubtably Klein's mounted some..."

But it's probably best if conspiracy theorists like David Josephs totally ignore that part of Westra's remarks in this 1978 report below:

So the very person (Mitch Westra) that the CTers love to prop up in their never-ending efforts to try and exonerate a double murderer is actually providing information that indicates that Klein's Sporting Goods of Chicago DID "undoubtably" (usually spelled "undoubtedly") mount "some" scopes on the forty-inch rifles they shipped to customers in 1963.

The irony there seems to be quite thick....isn't it David J.?

For more "Rifle" common sense, go here:

http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,6780.msg177233.html#msg177233

"To say that Klein's never mounted scopes on its 40-inch rifles is practically the same

as totally ignoring all of the many ads that Klein's Sporting Goods was placing in magazines

in mid to late 1963. Was Klein's lying to its mail-order customers when it said that a

customer could purchase a 40-inch carbine with scope ("as illustrated") -- i.e., the scope

is attached to the gun itself?" -- DVP; August 2, 2012

Edited January 28, 2014 by David Von Pein

[Gene Kelly]

David (and David): Doesn't it seem out of the ordinary that police would allow a news photographer to videotape the early moments of an evidence search? Alyea not only gets into the TSBD and is allowed onto the crime scene, but he photographs the critical collection/discovery of evidence. I can see a crime photographer from the DPD... but a newsman? And he is allowed to leave TSBD with his camera and film... and then it's broadcast on TV? In contast, others' cameras are purportedly being confiscated by the FBI and SS as key evidence (e.g. Z film)... some allegedly taken and destroyed. I'm resisting seeing evil in everyone and everything associated with the case. But I cannot see police allowing that to happen in this day and age, much less at the scene of a presidential assassination.

Interestingly and ironically, I have previously used that exact same type of argument to EXONERATE the police of any wrong-doing or evidence-planting, etc.

Because if the cops were up on that 6th floor planting evidence and switching rifles around (and God knows what else), as many conspiracists seem to believe WAS happening shortly after 12:30 on November 22nd, then the LAST thing they'd want is a TV news cameraman FILMING all of this type of sinister activity. Does anyone think they'd WANT it on film?? That's kinda crazy.

I do, however, think it was a bit crazy to allow Alyea to stay on the sixth floor--smack in the middle of the crime scene. He was allowed access to everything on the sixth floor, it would appear. And the excuse used by reporter Kent Biffle (who was also allowed to roam freely in the building, along with Alyea) that the police "were stuck with us; what were they going to do, throw us out a window?" is totally ridiculous [see "JFK: Breaking The News"; PBS-TV; 2003].

All the police needed to do, even after the building was officially "sealed off", would be to escort those two gentlemen (Alyea and Biffle) to the front door, then open the door to let the men exit the building, and then lock the door again after the men had left. Why on Earth was that impossible to do? And yet they didn't perform that simple door-opening task. Or at the very least, the police should have kept Alyea off of the "crime scene" floor. But they didn't perform that easy task either. ~big shrug~

In summary, I do not believe for even a second that the Dallas police and Sheriff's officers were on the sixth floor monkeying around with the evidence connected to the President's murder. And therefore, I certainly don't subscribe to the unsubstantiated theory that Tom Alyea filmed merely a "re-creation" of the rifle being discovered.

David: Interesting perspective. Thanks for the reply. - gene

[David Josephs]

And no conspiracy theorist (not even David Josephs of northern California) has ever come within six miles of being about to prove that ANY of the Klein's paperwork was forged or planted or tainted to frame LHO.

I'll ask again David... for almost a year KLEINS advertised and sold (and presumably shipped) a C20-T750 described as a scoped 36" "carbine" - WHAT DID THEY SHIP FOR THESE ORDERS DAVID AND WHERE DID THEY GET THESE RIFLES? (but no worries I don't expect you to have the chops to address the question beyond the last time you ansered it - "Who cares about other orders" LMAO)

And I was right of course... you cannot discuss the evidence that would prove anything since the evidence is GONE....

If there was only one other order in which a C20-T750 was ordered and any one of the other 99 FC rifles from that shipment were sent... we'd have our prooof.

If there was an example of any other FC rifle shipped with a scope on it... more proof for the FBI against Oswald

You don't want to think about what Kleins was fillingorders with prior to Feb 1963 cause it messes with yout neat little explanation - can you prove that VC836 and C2766 are on the original order form Dave?

All we have is a copy of a microfilm copy that has this written in PENCIL.

RE the Money order... which bank or postal office processed and paid the money order?

The lack of ethics you show by only posting only the FRONT is par for the LNer course... Let's look at the real crux of the matter shall we?

Waldman is asked about the one and only KLEINS stamp on the back of the Order... does he confirm it is the SAME stamp... the one used at his office? or something similar?

So show us Dave... where are the FRBS processing marks? The USPS marks?

Why are the stamps CLOSE but not the SAME? (didn't Oswald have a stamp making kit in his possession?)

Dave - you remain completely unable to address the issues and keep side-stepping the actual evidence that needs to be discussed... Why can't you address the PROOF that would show what KLEINS SOP was for Feb/MArch 1963 and for the month prior?

Afriad you and the FBI might have learned that none of the FBI generated Kleins BS evidence is worth the paper it was copied on.

And since you're going to continue to pull out a straw man argument everytime you are cornered like this - our "discussion" is over until you show up with something to defend yourself other than your not-to-be-believed "word" on the matter....

You going to put up, shut op, or just go home with your tail between your legs again?

The stamps are NOT the same and there are no other "official banking" marks on the thing... but YOU can show us how it was paid? the floor is all yours.....

Chapter 7000 PROCEDURES FOR PROCESSING POSTAL MONEY ORDERS Section 7020 -General Information And Format

All post offices sell paper money orders to the public. These money orders are paid at commercial banks and other depositaries of the Federal Reserve System and sent to FRBS. The FRBs will charge the account of USPS for the amount of the paid money orders and report these charges on the daily transcript of the U.S. Treasury. The FRBs then will send the money order documents to USPS. Upon receipt of the money order documents from the FRBS, USPS will reconcile and audit the documents. USPS will report all money order transactions on the Statement of .Transactions to the Deposit Reconciliation Branch (TFM 4-7095) at the end of each month

Section 7040 -Processing Fit Money Orders

Batching and Listing Fit Money Orders. Paper money orders are MICR printed with the routing code (including a routing number of 0000-0020 or 000000204) and the serial number with check digit. The routing number is also preprinted in the upper right corner on the form, which is in the location and front as prescribed by the ABA. FRBs will process FIT money orders as follows:

• Receive money orders from banks and process on high speed equipment in the manner most compatible with the processing of other categories of cash items.
• Prepare batches of no more than 500 items.
• Insert (in numerical sequence) USPS batch Locator Control Documents so that one is filed at the beginning of each batch of money orders to be read.
• Create a paper-tape list of serial numbers with optional check digit and amount of each money order read. The list will show the batch number and a subtotal for each batch with an overall total of all money orders listed on the paper tape.
• The total amount of fit items should be entered on PS Form 1901, code 100.
• Money orders bearing unreadable MICR characters in the on-us field are not to be rejected and handled as mutilated. List the characters that can be read on the paper tape as a reconcilement aid.

[Mark Wengler]

Trying to catch up here been away for a while with depression again

[David Josephs]

BUMP

C'mon DVP... ANY order or evidence that Kleins shipped a 40" rifle for C20-T750 orders.... EVER. Or where they got their 36" carbines which were shipped as ordered from Feb 62 thru Feb 63...

You're so good at posting uncorroborated garbage and then running off... but when do you actually use that big brain on the questions asked?

But it's probably best if conspiracy theorists like David Josephs totally ignore that part of Westra's remarks in this 1978 report below:

Westra claimed they did NOT mount scopes onto 40" rifles - BUT THEY "UNDOUBTEDLY MOUNTED SOME".... so to YOU DVP, this means it happened - and you have the gaul to call others out on reaching conclusions on the barest of evidence? Why do you feel WESTRA was 1) qualified to make the comment, 2)knew one way or the other

Westra was not the gunsmith, he was a shipping/receiving guy...

And you still have not offered a single example of a single order EVER where a C20-T750 resulted in a SCOPED 40" rifle being shipped... ANY SINGLE ONE OF THEM will prove your case Dave...

Why do you suppose the FBI avoided all those other orders like the plague?

Mr. BELIN. Who put the scope on the rifle?
Mr. WALDMAN. The scope was mounted on the rifle in our gun ,shop, most probably by a gunsmith named William Sharp (SUFFICE TO SAY - MR SHARP WAS NEVER CALLED UPON BY THE WC, BUT HERE IS HIS HSCA CONTACT REPORT thanks to Baylor's Armstrong collection The FBI has him put scopes on 12 more rifles ???)

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Waldman, do your records show whether or not the rifle was shipped with the scope mounted on it or is there any way that you know whether or not it was?
Mr. WALDMAN. Our catalog No. C20-T750, which was the number indicated on the coupon prepared by A. Hidell, designates a rifle with scope attached. And we would have so shipped it unless the customer specifically specified that he did not wish to have it attached. There is nothing in our records to indicate that there was any request made by the customer, and therefore we would have every reason to believe that it was shipped as a rifle with scope-mounted

Mr. SCIBOR. Employed by Klein's Sporting Goods.
Mr. BELIN. In what capacity?
Mr. SCIBOR. General operating manager.
Mr. BELIN. Were you so employed on or about November 22, 1963?
Mr. SCIBOR. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Were you at any time on that date contacted by any law enforcement agency with regard to a particular rifle, Serial No. C-2766?
Mr. SCIBOR. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. And could you tell us the circumstances surrounding this?
Mr. SCIBOR. I got a call Friday evening, November 22, asking if it would be possible to get at the records---at our records to see if that gun had been in our possession or sold by us. I got permission from one of the executives to open the store and view our records, and I came down here somewhere between 10 and 11 o'clock.
Mr. BELIN. And what did you do when you got down here?
Mr. SCIBOR. We went in with the Government men and--just before we went in, Mr. Waldman came down and we came in and he took over as far as getting-- trying to find the information that we needed.

So again, one of the ONLY OTHER WITNESSES to the printing of these Microfilm orders supposedly PROVING that Hidell ordered C2766, and in the same room as Waldman and the FBI... and not only was he not pushed on anything in his WC testimony... the HSCA did not feel it necessary to follow-up.

David, to put it bluntly - your attempts at proving anything regarding this rifle is pathetic, uncorroborated, incomplete, and woefully inadequate.

You can't find the Federal processing marks on the MO, or why they are not there

You can't understand what rifles were used prior to the FC shipment of Feb 22, 1963... the TS order was cancelled yet the ad runs for a year offering a 36" carbine with scope, C20-T750... what where they shipping?

You can't find how/who/when this rifle was retrieved or any of its path to the 6th floor...

But you can conclude it was Oswald's.... you sir, are an insult to intelligence and should be ashamed of the way you rewrite and obscure history...

Shame on you

Mr. BELIN. Do you know who the person is that filled out this order?
Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; his initials are so indicated as "M.W."
Mr. BELIN. Would that be the name at the lower lefthand corner of Exhibit 1? (THIS IS THE KLEINS ORDER FOR RIFLES - NOT ANY ORDER THAT GETS SHIPPED TO A CUSTOMER)
Mr. WALDMAN. It is.
Mr. BELIN. And that is who?
Mr. WALDMAN. Mitchell W. Westra.
Mr. BELIN. At that time was he an employee of your company?
Mr. WALDMAN. He was.
Mr. BELIN. Was he under your jurisdiction and supervision?
Mr. WALDMAN. He was not under my direct supervision, no. He was under the supervision of Sam Kasper (SUFFICE TO SAY MR KASPER WAS ALSO NOT CALLED UPON BY THE WC)

[David Von Pein]

Maybe David Josephs should take a pill before reading this Nov. 2013 interview

with gunsmith William Sharp....

http://news.medill.northwestern.edu/chicago/news.aspx?id=226036

“It’s my rifle, I put the scope on it.” -- William H. Sharp

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2014/01/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-591.html

Edited February 4, 2014 by David Von Pein

[Robert Prudhomme]

Hi Dave & Dave

This argument about whether a scope could have been mounted on an M91/38 short rifle, as opposed to if one was actually mounted on the most famous M91/38 of all, namely C2766, or any other M91/38, for that matter, has led to a slight misunderstanding amongst the reading public.

I know, DJ, that it has long been argued that Klein's only mounted scopes on the 6.5mm Carcano carbines, and not the short rifles, and this may indeed have been true (or not). However, this has led to the assumption there was something more involved in mounting a scope on a short rifle than a carbine, and that someone almost had to show the gunsmith at Klein's exactly where to mount the scope on the short rifle they brought for scope mounting.

The truth of the matter is, every Carcano ever made, including long rifles, short rifles, carbines and even the 7.35mm short rifle (along with its carbine derivatives) has exactly the same receiver and bolt on it as the next Carcano, and are thoroughly interchangeable. If the gunsmith at Klein's had mounted scopes on M91/24 carbines, he would be proficient at mounting scopes on M91/38 short rifles, as well.

I would also like to point out, DVP, that in the interview you posted, Klein's gunsmith did not have any kind words for the M91/38 OR the cheap toy scope mounted on it.

Edited February 4, 2014 by Robert Prudhomme

[Gary Murr]

Maybe David Josephs should take a pill before reading this Nov. 2013 interview

with gunsmith William Sharp....

http://news.medill.northwestern.edu/chicago/news.aspx?id=226036

“It’s my rifle, I put the scope on it.” -- William H. Sharp

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2014/01/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-591.html

So David, just curious, after reading the link to the November 26, 2013, Medill Report that you provided covering an interview with the 82 year old Sharp, does this mean that he lied to the FBI on March 11, 1964, when in his only interview at the hands of the Bureau, with Chicago FO agents Robert J. Dolan And Clay M. Brady, he indicated the following, from: FBI: 105-82555-2619, p. 5.

Mr. Sharp stated that one of his responsibilities as a gunsmith is the

mounting of rifles with riflescopes. He explained that in this connection

he drills, taps, and mounts the scope without knowledge of the order

itself or of the identity of the customer ordering the weapon. He

continued that he performs this service normally on a group of rifles

at one time, upon being advised that an order for a specific number of

rifles mounted with scopes has been received. He then turns the rifles

over to the shipping room for matching with orders and for packing

and shipping.

Mr. Sharp stated that no notations are made indicating he or an assistant

had fitted or mounted a specific rifle with a riflescope, nor are records

maintained showing a specific rifle had been so fitted or mounted.

Mr. Sharp stated that because of the number of rifles mounted by him he

would be unable to recall a specific rifle and he had no knowledge of the

order for the rifle in question.

Nine days after this Sharp interview with members of the Chicago FO, David Belin was in Chicago and at Kleins; why did he not depose/interview Mr. Sharp at that time?

As I said, just curious.

[Robert Prudhomme]

Hi Gary

Good point you make there. It does say, later in the article, that Sharp was the only gunsmith employed at the time at Klein's, but makes no mention of Sharp having assistants.

The article mentions, at the end of the article, the ammo Klein's also sold for the Carcano. Do you know if this was Italian issue or Western Cartridge Co. ammunition?

P.S. I just read the article again. I missed the part where it said he was the only gunsmith at Klein's "at the time of the assassination". My apologies.

Edited February 4, 2014 by Robert Prudhomme

[David Von Pein]

As Bob said above, Bill Sharp was evidently the ONLY gunsmith in the Klein's warehouse. Therefore, who ELSE could have mounted Oswald's scope?

Furthermore, Sharp said in his 2013 interview that he said this to his boss on 11/23/63 (he must have worked on Saturdays), “It’s my rifle, I put the scope on it.”

Grain of salt disclaimer -- Yes, Sharp was an 82-year-old man when he said the above quote. And nobody's memory is perfect after 82 years.

But the whole "Klein's never mounted Oswald's scope" argument made by CTers is just ludicrous on its face, IMO. Here's why....

"To say that Klein's never mounted scopes on its 40-inch rifles is practically the same as totally ignoring all of the many ads that Klein's Sporting Goods was placing in magazines in mid to late 1963. Was Klein's lying to its mail-order customers when it said that a customer could purchase a 40-inch carbine with scope ("as illustrated") -- i.e., the scope is attached to the gun itself?" -- DVP; Aug. 2012

Edited February 4, 2014 by David Von Pein

[Robert Prudhomme]

Hi Dave

What has always bothered me about Klein's ad is that, no matter which rifle they are marketing, they continue to show the same photo. I realize, of course, this was likely done to keep advertising costs down but, there are things about the rifle in the ad that don't make sense, as well.

For instance, they advertise a "turned down bolt" in all three ads. This is odd, as it was standard for all short rifles and carbines, even those carbines made from M91 long rifles with straight bolt handles, to have turned down bolt handles.

The rifle in the ad appears to be an M91/24 carbine; a rather disastrous carbine (see "progressive twist rifling") made by cutting down the 31" barrels of M91 long rifles to the 17" carbine length, yet the forestock tip and forestock cap are all wrong.

My next thought is this would be a "Suprema" which was an M91 long rifle sporterized after WW II prior to shipping to the American market; another disaster (again, see "progressive twist rifling"). These rifles were sporterized by cutting their barrels down in length and having custom work done on their forestock. This would explain their claim of "turned down bolts", as all long rifles, including the later models such as the M91/41, had straight bolt handles. The rear sight also matches the M91 (plus the M91/24 carbine). Yet, when we look at the tip of the forestock, there is what appears to be a bayonet lug on the underside of the barrel, in a place where no M91 ever had a bayonet lug.

I'm confused.

Edited February 4, 2014 by Robert Prudhomme

[Pat Speer]

Am I the only one here who's ever worked in a warehouse?

Because I have no problem believing they sent Oswald the wrong rifle. it doesn't surprise me at all.

I worked in a music one-stop. We sold tons of music accessories to retailers. If somebody ordered--let's say--a 48-count CD rack, and we were out of stock, but had a few 50 count CD racks that had been phased out--we might very well ship the 50 count and charge the customer the 48 count price. This was in the 80's, when we were still working off manual inventories. Later, when everything was online, and you'd mess up your inventory by shipping something with a different UPC, we probably wouldn't ship a different rack than was ordered.

But in the 1960's? A discount mail-order gun distributor? I have no doubts that Klein's wouldn't hesitate to ship someone the wrong rifle...

[Vince Palamara]

EXCELLENT point, Pat; never thought of that.

Pat: IF--IF---those are indeed Oswald's prints on the trigger guard, "game over" (as a You Tube xxxxx has written several times)?

[Ray Mitcham]

The biggest query for me is why the Post Office would accept a rifle addressed to A.Hidell at Oswald's post box.

Particularly, nobody recalls accepting it and nobody remembers giving it to Oswald, and it wasn't signed for.

Why would the Post Office accept an incorrectly addressed parcel in the first place, when there was nothing to link Hidell to Oswald's box?