Was Oswald an Intelligence Agent?

[Paul Trejo]

I thought the myth of Oswald watching I led three lives had been exploded already. Wasn't it on the air at a time when Oswald could not have watched it?

Why would Robert Oswald lie about it?

The TV series, I Led Three Lives, was syndicated from October 1, 1953 to January 1, 1956. Lee Harvey Oswald was born on October 18, 1939. He would have been 13 when it started, and 16 when it ended.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited October 7, 2016 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Brancato]

Looking over that info, Robert claimed that his brother Lee was still watching reruns of the show when he, Robert, enlisted. The problem is that, according to Armstrong, Robert enlisted in July 1952, but the program first aired in September 1963, and reruns began in 1956. You are right that Oswald could have watched it at home, but not while Robert was around. And since Robert is the only source you have to connect Oswald to 'I led Three Lives', I think we should be careful not overstate the case.

[Pamela Brown]

I don't believe Oswald was a CIA agent, I think he was a CIA asset. I think there might be a distinction.

I understand that Oswald was at Atsugi, which I heard somewhere was largely CIA operations. So, the agency may certainly have been using him already in some capacity, as well as other young GIs. I read somewhere that the CIA ran the false defector program through the ONI. I could see that happening. And, as Steve said, he came back and became an FBI informant/asset. It seems that Oswald was being run many different parties. Through all this, he ended up becoming the perfect patsy.

It seems to me that LHO was used by intelligence, but not necessarily one of them. There is ample evidence that his movements were tracked by both sides. I think Nosenko was correct in saying that the Soviets realized LHO was unstable and would not make a good spy. According to Mr. Hosty, LHO was not smart enough to be a spy, but he seemed convinced Marina was a sleeper agent.

Edited October 7, 2016 by Pamela Brown

[Chris Newton]

That's why I don't believe that the Language Aptitude Test that Lt. Col Folsom described in his WC testimony about Oswald consisted only of reading and writing comprehension. Not only that, but Oswald's test scores under "understanding" are different from his test scores in "reading" and in ""writing".

You're correct. The test is multiple choice and there are different components but the audio portion is weighted very heavily.

It was the hardest test of any type I have ever taken in my entire life and I failed."

That took a lot of courage to say.

I took the 6 hour SEC "Series 7 Registered Rep" in 1988 and passed the first time.

Imagine an audio multiple choice about a completely imaginary made up language where four different phrases are spoken. By the time phrase four rolls around good luck remembering choices 1-3.

[Paul Trejo]

It seems to me that LHO was used by intelligence, but not necessarily one of them. There is ample evidence that his movements were tracked by both sides. I think Nosenko was correct in saying that the Soviets realized LHO was unstable and would not make a good spy. According to Mr. Hosty, LHO was not smart enough to be a spy, but he seemed convinced Marina was a sleeper agent.

Pamela,

Yes, this is reasonable. LHO was a CIA wannabe; training for a future job in the CIA, and he was devoted to it. Yet he was young (a teenager) and headstrong, having little experience with female relationships.

In the USSR Oswald had his radio factory salary, but also a stipend from the Red Cross, almost equal to his salary, so that Oswald had the same income as a factory manager, and Oswald lived in a new apartment in Minsk -- like a privileged person. This had impressed Marina.

When LHO met Marina in the USSR, he became a captive of love. It was Marina, IMHO, who convinced LHO to return to the USA, since she was ambitious and saw no place for herself in the USSR. Her family raised her as a Russian Orthodox believer, and she didn't like Communism. She pushed LHO to return, and she loved the USA. She never wanted to go back.

Yet because LHO had cut short his ONI mission in the USSR, his Marine discharge status was reduced to 'unsatisfactory.' Oswald had a devil of a time getting decent work in the USA. The CIA would never be interested in LHO as a potential recruit from that time forward. LHO found himself living in dire poverty for the rest of his short life.

In the USA, Oswald was a loser, earning minimum wage in Dallas-Fort Worth, where oil barons and oil engineers were common. Oswald kept shifting jobs, and he and Marina linked up with the wealthy baron George DeMohrenschildt.

The Russian Expatriates in Dallas liked Marina, but hated LHO. George Bouhe made passes at Marina, and collected (according to Jeanne DeMohrenschildt) a hundred dresses for Marina out of "charity". LHO beat Marina for the first (and last) time of his life during this period, and he personally threatened George Bouhe so that Bouhe became afraid of LHO.

George DeMohrenschildt, a wealthy Russian who had lost his Estate to the Communists, and had failed to recover his Estate by Nazi assistance, had also been stunned by the Nazi devastation to Russia. So George hated both Communists and Fascists. George considered General Walker to be a Fascist, and would call him "General Fokker" to LHO. LHO was strongly influenced by George DeMohrenschildt.

After trying to shoot General Walker, however, LHO had to flee to New Orleans, where he thought he was out of the General's clutches, but actually he fell right into General Walker's trap. LHO was sheep-dipped as a Communist (probably ordered to infiltrate the Communists through the FPCC, and slip into Cuba to kill Fidel Castro). CIA rogues were supportive of 544 Camp Street, but it was unofficial.

If LHO would have killed Fidel, he would have been forgiven. Otherwise, LHO was now Walker's perfect Patsy for the JFK assassination.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited October 10, 2016 by Paul Trejo

[Roger DeLaria]

I don't believe Oswald was a CIA agent, I think he was a CIA asset. I think there might be a distinction.

I understand that Oswald was at Atsugi, which I heard somewhere was largely CIA operations. So, the agency may certainly have been using him already in some capacity, as well as other young GIs. I read somewhere that the CIA ran the false defector program through the ONI. I could see that happening. And, as Steve said, he came back and became an FBI informant/asset. It seems that Oswald was being run many different parties. Through all this, he ended up becoming the perfect patsy.

It seems to me that LHO was used by intelligence, but not necessarily one of them. There is ample evidence that his movements were tracked by both sides. I think Nosenko was correct in saying that the Soviets realized LHO was unstable and would not make a good spy. According to Mr. Hosty, LHO was not smart enough to be a spy, but he seemed convinced Marina was a sleeper agent.

Interesting about Hosty seemingly being convinced that Marina was a sleeper agent. Wasn't Marina's father tied into russian intelligence/KGB?

[Thomas Graves]

I don't believe Oswald was a CIA agent, I think he was a CIA asset. I think there might be a distinction.

I understand that Oswald was at Atsugi, which I heard somewhere was largely CIA operations. So, the agency may certainly have been using him already in some capacity, as well as other young GIs. I read somewhere that the CIA ran the false defector program through the ONI. I could see that happening. And, as Steve said, he came back and became an FBI informant/asset. It seems that Oswald was being run many different parties. Through all this, he ended up becoming the perfect patsy.

It seems to me that LHO was used by intelligence, but not necessarily one of them. There is ample evidence that his movements were tracked by both sides. I think Nosenko was correct in saying that the Soviets realized LHO was unstable and would not make a good spy. According to Mr. Hosty, LHO was not smart enough to be a spy, but he seemed convinced Marina was a sleeper agent.

Interesting about Hosty seemingly being convinced that Marina was a sleeper agent. Wasn't Marina's father tied into russian intelligence/KGB?

Her uncle, Ilya Vasilyevich Prusakov, was a colonel in the MVD, a predecessor of the KGB.

He is apparently identified as "MVD Colonel Nikolay Aksenov" in this newspaper article:

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/T%20Disk/Taylor%20Henry%20J/Item%2006.pdf

https://books.google.com/books?id=rFE7nTO-iLcC&pg=PR11&dq=Col.+Ilya+Vasilyevich+Prusakov&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj8vaexl9HPAhVL52MKHaxqCpMQ6AEIJDAB#v=onepage&q=Col.%20Ilya%20Vasilyevich%20Prusakov&f=false

-- Tommy

PS He was apparently misidentified as "her uncle Vasili Khritinin" in this Life article.

https://books.google.com/books?id=mkEEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA26&lpg=PA26&dq=khritinin+marina+oswald&source=bl&ots=duyyHWNs3s&sig=C8fSvrN6MMwCAr2dCYInwhItJxc&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjGpJPbmtHPAhUE5mMKHSbVDEYQ6AEISDAJ#v=onepage&q=khritinin%20marina%20oswald&f=false

Edited October 10, 2016 by Thomas Graves

[Thomas Graves]

And there was a Yurily Mikhaylov, too.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=111183&relPageId=228&search=aksenov_prusakova

Edited October 10, 2016 by Thomas Graves

[Paul Trejo]

Interesting about Hosty seemingly being convinced that Marina was a sleeper agent. Wasn't Marina's father tied into russian intelligence/KGB?

Even if Marina Oswald was a "sleeper agent" for the KGB, the fact remains that the USSR had no interest in assassinating JFK. This was confirmed by Dean Rusk, John McCone, Llewellyn Thompson, C. Douglas Dillon, Alan Belmont, James Riley, J. Edgar Hoover and many more ranking Washington DC insiders in WC testimony.

It was the Radical Right Wing in 1963 which had insisted that the JFK assassination was a Communist Plot -- when actually it was their own plot. See for example the WC testimony of General Walker, Revilo Oliver, Robert Allen Surrey, Bernard Weissman and their compatriots.

Yet Marina had both of her daughters baptized in the Russian Orthodox Church, and she never joined a Communist Party, or ever spoke with Communists. She liked the company of the Russian emigres in Dallas, who were avid Anticommunists. LHO didn't like her talking to them, because he was insanely jealous.

Marina Oswald shows all the behavioral signs of being an Anticommunist -- and only wanted to remain the USA for the rest of her life. She became independently wealthy from US citizen "sympathy" donations after the murder of LHO. She loved the USA. She never wanted to go back.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited October 11, 2016 by Paul Trejo

[Roger DeLaria]

I don't believe Oswald was a CIA agent, I think he was a CIA asset. I think there might be a distinction.

I understand that Oswald was at Atsugi, which I heard somewhere was largely CIA operations. So, the agency may certainly have been using him already in some capacity, as well as other young GIs. I read somewhere that the CIA ran the false defector program through the ONI. I could see that happening. And, as Steve said, he came back and became an FBI informant/asset. It seems that Oswald was being run many different parties. Through all this, he ended up becoming the perfect patsy.

It seems to me that LHO was used by intelligence, but not necessarily one of them. There is ample evidence that his movements were tracked by both sides. I think Nosenko was correct in saying that the Soviets realized LHO was unstable and would not make a good spy. According to Mr. Hosty, LHO was not smart enough to be a spy, but he seemed convinced Marina was a sleeper agent.

Interesting about Hosty seemingly being convinced that Marina was a sleeper agent. Wasn't Marina's father tied into russian intelligence/KGB?

Her uncle, Ilya Vasilyevich Prusakov, was a colonel in the MVD, a predecessor of the KGB.

He is apparently identified as "MVD Colonel Nikolay Aksenov" in this newspaper article:

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/T%20Disk/Taylor%20Henry%20J/Item%2006.pdf

https://books.google.com/books?id=rFE7nTO-iLcC&pg=PR11&dq=Col.+Ilya+Vasilyevich+Prusakov&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj8vaexl9HPAhVL52MKHaxqCpMQ6AEIJDAB#v=onepage&q=Col.%20Ilya%20Vasilyevich%20Prusakov&f=false

-- Tommy

PS He was apparently misidentified as "her uncle Vasili Khritinin" in this Life article.

https://books.google.com/books?id=mkEEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA26&lpg=PA26&dq=khritinin+marina+oswald&source=bl&ots=duyyHWNs3s&sig=C8fSvrN6MMwCAr2dCYInwhItJxc&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjGpJPbmtHPAhUE5mMKHSbVDEYQ6AEISDAJ#v=onepage&q=khritinin%20marina%20oswald&f=false

That's what I was thinking of Thomas, her uncle. I knew it was a familial relation.

That's correct, Paul. The russians didn't want to kill JFK. I remember there was the backchannel dialogue Kennedy and Khrushchev had, they were clearly wanting to go in the other direction. Of course many in JFK's own administration, and outside, thought he was a communist appeaser, along with his Castro communication.

Edited October 11, 2016 by Roger DeLaria

[Pamela Brown]

I don't believe Oswald was a CIA agent, I think he was a CIA asset. I think there might be a distinction.

I understand that Oswald was at Atsugi, which I heard somewhere was largely CIA operations. So, the agency may certainly have been using him already in some capacity, as well as other young GIs. I read somewhere that the CIA ran the false defector program through the ONI. I could see that happening. And, as Steve said, he came back and became an FBI informant/asset. It seems that Oswald was being run many different parties. Through all this, he ended up becoming the perfect patsy.

It seems to me that LHO was used by intelligence, but not necessarily one of them. There is ample evidence that his movements were tracked by both sides. I think Nosenko was correct in saying that the Soviets realized LHO was unstable and would not make a good spy. According to Mr. Hosty, LHO was not smart enough to be a spy, but he seemed convinced Marina was a sleeper agent.

Interesting about Hosty seemingly being convinced that Marina was a sleeper agent. Wasn't Marina's father tied into russian intelligence/KGB?

Her uncle, Ilya Vasilyevich Prusakov, was a colonel in the MVD, a predecessor of the KGB.

He is apparently identified as "MVD Colonel Nikolay Aksenov" in this newspaper article:

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/T%20Disk/Taylor%20Henry%20J/Item%2006.pdf

https://books.google.com/books?id=rFE7nTO-iLcC&pg=PR11&dq=Col.+Ilya+Vasilyevich+Prusakov&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj8vaexl9HPAhVL52MKHaxqCpMQ6AEIJDAB#v=onepage&q=Col.%20Ilya%20Vasilyevich%20Prusakov&f=false

-- Tommy

PS He was apparently misidentified as "her uncle Vasili Khritinin" in this Life article.

https://books.google.com/books?id=mkEEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA26&lpg=PA26&dq=khritinin+marina+oswald&source=bl&ots=duyyHWNs3s&sig=C8fSvrN6MMwCAr2dCYInwhItJxc&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjGpJPbmtHPAhUE5mMKHSbVDEYQ6AEISDAJ#v=onepage&q=khritinin%20marina%20oswald&f=false

That's what I was thinking of Thomas, her uncle. I knew it was a familial relation.

That's correct, Paul. The russians didn't want to kill JFK. I remember there was the backchannel dialogue Kennedy and Khrushchev had, they were clearly wanting to go in the other direction. Of course many in JFK's own administration, and outside, thought he was a communist appeaser, along with his Castro communication.

Good point. Marina had something of an intelligence background.

The thing about the Russians, imo, is that there were layers upon layers, like the Russian dolls, of intelligence people. I think some were comfortable with JFK being taken out of the way. JFK did a great deal of backchanneling with the Soviets and this had to cause consternation on both sides.

[Joe Bauer]

Marina was very unhappy with LHO.

It is obvious that once she got over here in the states and realized her husband was extremely incapable of providing her with anything more than a paupers life, she lost ( or turned off ) most of her affection towards him. She was much more drawn to and indulged by the white Russian friends they met in 1963.

It sounds as if Marina became increasingly disaffected towards Lee, even cold and making fun of him to her new Russian friends.

That's a sad thing.

I am not making a judgement call regards Marina. But I have seen so many situations where very young American military men of little means in their end of military duty civilian lives, met and married foreign brides who were poor themselves and who naively thought they would be living the American good life when they came here. And when they realized the truth about the reality and humiliation of struggling poverty here, become very unhappy with their situations and young American husbands and looked to escape them

And when they do, it is usually a heart breaking experience for the poorly providing young husbands to have these wives lose their feelings towards them and or leave them

Especially if they have children.

And In Marina Oswald's case, she also happened to be extremely attractive and had other men flirting with and wooing her, which surely just added to Oswald's personal pain and eventually anger of losing her.

If Oswald was involved with any secret agencies, it sure didn't help him with his lowest wage poverty and inability to provide for his young family.

You'd think he would feel so poorly compensated in this endeavor that this helped cost him his wife and family and that he would leave any such employment

out of low wage grievance alone.

Edited October 11, 2016 by Joe Bauer

[Paul Trejo]

Marina was very unhappy with LHO.

It is obvious that once she got over here in the states and realized her husband was extremely incapable of providing her with anything more than a paupers life, she lost ( or turned off ) most of her affection towards him. She was much more drawn to and indulged by the white Russian friends they met in 1963.

It sounds as if Marina became increasingly disaffected towards Lee, even cold and making fun of him to her new Russian friends.

That's a sad thing.

I am not making a judgement call regards Marina. But I have seen so many situations where very young American military men of little means in their end of military duty civilian lives, met and married foreign brides who were poor themselves and who naively thought they would be living the American good life when they came here. And when they realized the truth about the reality and humiliation of struggling poverty here, become very unhappy with their situations and young American husbands and looked to escape them

And when they do, it is usually a heart breaking experience for the poorly providing young husbands to have these wives lose their feelings towards them and or leave them

Especially if they have children.

And In Marina Oswald's case, she also happened to be extremely attractive and had other men flirting with and wooing her, which surely just added to Oswald's personal pain and eventually anger of losing her.

If Oswald was involved with any secret agencies, it sure didn't help him with his lowest wage poverty and ability to provide for his young family.

You'd think he would feel so poorly compensated in this endeavor that it helped cost him his wife and family and that he would leave any such employment out of low wage grievance alone.

Joe,

I agree with all of this. The notion that Marina was a "sleeper" agent is speculation. The facts we observe are that the marriage of Marina and Lee became increasingly strained in their Dallas-Fort Worth environment. I don't want to say that Marina was the Material Girl, but after all, she spoke only Russian, and only the Russian Expatriates in Dallas spoke Russian -- so who were going to be her friends?

But her friends were not Communists -- they were Capitalists -- they were the Russians who left Russia because of the Communists. They were often oil engineers, or oil workers at some level. This included the Russian translator, Ilya Mamantov, who had turned down Ruth Paine for Russian lessons; he was originally an oil businessman.

The Russian Expatriates in Fort Worth and Dallas had lots of money -- and George Bouhe would shower Marina Oswald with "charity" in a very blatant manner, according to Ilya Mamantov. It was well known that LHO started to beat Marina during this period (and stopped after they moved away). Marina had actually moved into some of the homes of some of the Russian Expatriates during this stressful period.

None of the Russian Expatriates was as flamboyant as George DeMohrenschildt, who was an oil-explorer and University Professor -- and a playboy. He encouraged George Bouhe in his flirtation with Marina Oswald, and told him to ignore the threats by LHO.

Yet Marina and LHO were delighted with George DeMohrenschildt -- he was so worldly, so fatherly, so rich, and so much fun.

All these details were already shared with the WC by Marina and Ruth (except perhaps the most intimate secrets of a personal nature) so this should not be a surprise to anybody.

It's not an insult to say that Marina Oswald was a Capitalist. She had nothing to do with Communism out of her own free will.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited October 11, 2016 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Brancato]

Tommy - it's pics like the one you posted that make me wonder about the 'two Oswalds'.

[Thomas Graves]

De

Tommy - it's pics like the one you posted that make me wonder about the 'two Oswalds'.

Dear Paul,

Welcome to the rabbit hole.

-- Tommy

PS So now you're going to become a Harvey and Lee and Henry devotee?

Edited October 11, 2016 by Thomas Graves