The latest from Ruth Paine

[Paul Trejo]

3 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

...When the Secret Service returned the Walker note to Ruth because they thought she wrote it, she then told them the following:  I forgot to give you this stuff I just found about Oswald being in Mexico City.  Thereby placing him in MC.  Which is  a place Marina had told them he had never been. Again, that is not from a secondary source.  Its from the Secret Service report.

James,

Regarding the Secret Service accusation that Ruth Paine wrote the "Walker Letter" -- why didn't the Warren Commission prosecute that accusation? 

In your CIA-did-it CT, it's because Ruth Paine was a CIA agent, and the WC was protecting her.   But that's just cloak-and-dagger fiction.

The fact is that the Warren Commission tossed it out of court because it was a mistake -- an erroneous report by the Secret Service.  

The Secret Service ate their words, and they never spoke of it again.  You sort of forget that important, historical fact.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited August 15, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Michael Clark]

2 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

James,

Regarding the Secret Service accusation that Ruth Paine wrote the "Walker Letter" -- why didn't the Warren Commission prosecute that accusation? 

In your CIA-did-it CT, it's because Ruth Paine was a CIA agent, and the WC was protecting her.   But that's just cloak-and-dagger fiction.

The fact is that the Warren Commission tossed it out of court because it was a mistake -- an erroneous report by the Secret Service.  

The Secret Service ate their words, and they never spoke of it again.  You sort of forget that important, historical fact.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Can you demonstrate that with testimony or evidence?

[Chris Newton]

5 hours ago, Jason Ward said:

In any event, perhaps I can persuade you to give up trying to convince us of Ruth's true motives and concentrate on pivotal or unexplored clues?

Jason,

You're also not presenting any "evidence" to the contrary. I don't see anything in your posts, so far, that is an actual citation or reference. You make a lot of fine generalizations without ever really making a point. If you want to argue the CIA did it CT then my suggestion would be to start with anything written by  Dr. John Newman who, so far,  hardly mentions Ruth Paine. If you can prove him wrong, I'll be the first one to line up behind you.

I don't see how you will succeed in "persuading" James DiEugenio, or myself or anyone, to "give up trying to convince us of Ruth's true motives" until you actually put some meat on your arguments.

Let's try something specific that's still a mystery: How did FBI Agent James P. Hosty's license plate number get in Lee Oswald's personal notebook?

[Jason Ward]

3 hours ago, Chris Newton said:

Jason,

You're also not presenting any "evidence" to the contrary. I don't see anything in your posts, so far, that is an actual citation or reference. You make a lot of fine generalizations without ever really making a point. If you want to argue the CIA did it CT then my suggestion would be to start with anything written by  Dr. John Newman who, so far,  hardly mentions Ruth Paine. If you can prove him wrong, I'll be the first one to line up behind you.

I don't see how you will succeed in "persuading" James DiEugenio, or myself or anyone, to "give up trying to convince us of Ruth's true motives" until you actually put some meat on your arguments.

Let's try something specific that's still a mystery: How did FBI Agent James P. Hosty's license plate number get in Lee Oswald's personal notebook?

Thanks Chris.

I take it that Ruth is telling the truth until someone shows a trusted primary source to the contrary.   Also, I start from the premise that no one is involved in a conspiracy to kill JFK until there is evidence to the contrary, such as a trusted primary source.   You are asking me to start with the CIA did it theory and prove it wrong.   I think that's backwards; I think that many in the assassination research community have become so enamored of themselves that they start with the mindset that their chosen conspiracy theory is the starting point and everyone else has to disprove the conspiracy theory . 

By the way, I did provide primary sources to he who directly challenged me: I cited the testimony of Wesley Frazier's sister Rindle - in two separate testimonies.

So if you are going to start with the position that a CT exists until I disprove it, we are always going to butt heads.   But maybe that's ok.

I'll take a stab at answering your life question off the top of my head without consulting notes, so give me a little leeway if I'm off on a detail will you?

Hosty's license plate number got into Oswald's notebook because it was written down during one of Hosty's visits to Irving.   Is this really a big issue?

thanks again, Jason

[Ron Bulman]

5 hours ago, Chris Newton said:

Jason,

You're also not presenting any "evidence" to the contrary. I don't see anything in your posts, so far, that is an actual citation or reference. You make a lot of fine generalizations without ever really making a point. If you want to argue the CIA did it CT then my suggestion would be to start with anything written by  Dr. John Newman who, so far,  hardly mentions Ruth Paine. If you can prove him wrong, I'll be the first one to line up behind you.

I don't see how you will succeed in "persuading" James DiEugenio, or myself or anyone, to "give up trying to convince us of Ruth's true motives" until you actually put some meat on your arguments.

Let's try something specific that's still a mystery: How did FBI Agent James P. Hosty's license plate number get in Lee Oswald's personal notebook?

Marina wrote it down, she peeked out the window as he left.  BTW, she really understood English quite well by this point according to some, it's claimed even before she met Lee while still in Russia.  If she spoke English to the First American Defector she met in Moscow (?) (Leningrad?) before her banishment to her KGB (sic) Uncle in Minsk, when did she first speak English to Lee?  Or Ruth?

Edited August 16, 2017 by Ron Bulman

[Jason Ward]

11 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

Jason, now please.

This means you did not read Jim's book.  Which kind of surprises me.

Jim uses two main sources to argue his point.  They are Ruth Paine's WC testimony which he quotes at length and the Adams affidavit.  I gave you the page numbers.  The footnotes are on page 424.

I read the book awhile back but don't remember this detail; nor was I particularly impressed with his need to prove rather than analyze.  Because I admire you, I will look up p 424 and get back to you, thanks!

Jason

[Gene Kelly]

Paul:

 I appreciate your feedback on the coincidences that I've listed.  They can all be sourced, as you probably know ... Probe and Jim's work is a worthy place to start but not necessarily a finish, as you also are aware. I see no logic in this distinction being made of primary versus secondary sources.  I suppose that we will simply continue to agree to disagree about the Paines. Regarding the point about Quakers, I stand by my observation that they have been popularly characterized as a middle-class average couple who just happened to associate with a Marxist assassin and his Russian wife.  A virtuous Quaker -Unitarian couple who belonged to the ACLU (ideologically liberal) but ironically did nothing to help Oswald (or Marina) with legal assistance. Portrayed as charitable, but lacking in any notable track record of philanthropic achievements (save their devotion to the Oswalds for a year or so) either before or after the assassination.  I find such dichotomies to be interesting.  Speaking of assassination, I would also note that (imho) they performed a skillful/scripted character assassination of the alleged assassin.  

Regarding my familiarity with Quakers and Unitarians, I'd remind you that I grew up in Philadelphia, went to college on the Main Line where both Michael and Ruth come from (Paoli, PA), and pass by Swarthmore College (where Ruth's papers are kept, and Michal attended) every morning on the way to work.  I used to live near the Friends school in Germantown where Ruth was a principal.  I have many friends and colleagues who are Quakers, and regularly pass by Quaker Meeting Houses and communities where I work.  

Gene

[Paul Trejo]

9 hours ago, Gene Kelly said:

Paul:

 I appreciate your feedback on the coincidences that I've listed.  They can all be sourced, as you probably know ... Probe and Jim's work is a worthy place to start but not necessarily a finish, as you also are aware. I see no logic in this distinction being made of primary versus secondary sources.  I suppose that we will simply continue to agree to disagree about the Paines.

1. Regarding the point about Quakers, I stand by my observation that they have been popularly characterized as a middle-class average couple who just happened to associate with a Marxist assassin and his Russian wife. 

2.  A virtuous Quaker -Unitarian couple who belonged to the ACLU (ideologically liberal) but ironically did nothing to help Oswald (or Marina) with legal assistance.

3. Portrayed as charitable, but lacking in any notable track record of philanthropic achievements (save their devotion to the Oswalds for a year or so) either before or after the assassination. 

I find such dichotomies to be interesting.  Speaking of assassination, I would also note that (imho) they performed a skillful/scripted character assassination of the alleged assassin.  

Regarding my familiarity with Quakers and Unitarians, I'd remind you that I grew up in Philadelphia, went to college on the Main Line where both Michael and Ruth come from (Paoli, PA), and pass by Swarthmore College (where Ruth's papers are kept, and Michal attended) every morning on the way to work.  I used to live near the Friends school in Germantown where Ruth was a principal.  I have many friends and colleagues who are Quakers, and regularly pass by Quaker Meeting Houses and communities where I work.  

Gene

Gene,

I respond by the numbers.

1. Your characterization of the Paine's is too abstract.  They were, of course, more than merely Quaker and Utilitarian.  They were also East Coast people. They were also very wealthy.  They were both well-educated.  They were both young and idealistic. 

1.1.  Ruth Paine had decided in high school that she was Divinely called to learn Russian, so that she could be of value in the Cold War.  She joined the Quakers around this time, and she started pen-pal writing to other youth in Russia.  (It didn't last, partly because Ruth had difficulty with Russian conversational skills.)

1.2. Michael Paine's dad was a Communist.  Trotskyist, and very wealthy, but still a Communist.  He hosted many intellectual meetings in his comfortable home in California.  While in high-school, Michael spent a summer there, and attended many of these meetings -- and learned a lot -- mainly of what he didn't want to be.   So, Michael knew his Marxism very well.

1.3.  Ruth Paine's interest was in Marina Oswald -- EXCLUSIVELY.  She disliked Lee Oswald very much (except for the last two weeks of October).  Michael Paine cared nothing for the Oswald's, except that his wife cared about Marina, and he was willing to go along with that.  Lee Oswald was a bother to Michael as well.  Michael spoke to Lee only to be polite, going by his testimony.

2.  You claim that the Paine's did nothing to give the Oswald's legal assistance -- but that's ambiguous.  First, Marina Oswald never asked for legal assistance. 

2.1.  Neither did Lee Oswald (before the JFK murder).  What legal problems did you have in mind?

2.2. Both of the Paines were very proprietary and private, and would never nose their way into other people's private business.  That was their upbringing.

2.3.  The ACLU did show up at the Dallas City Jail offering to help Lee Oswald, and they were sent away by Oswald himself, IIRC.

2.4.  When Lee Oswald called Ruth Paine to ask her to contact John Abt for her, she actually did call John Abt's number (but he was on vacation with no forwarding phone number).

3.  Ruth Paine worked within her Quaker Church for social justice issues.  One way was to establish pen-pals in Russia.  When she became a mother, her main duty in life was child-care.

3.1.  What more Charity does one need than to take in a woman (Marina Oswald) into one's home, who is eight-months pregnant, no money, no health insurance, and who's husband was out of work for the 3rd time in single year?

In conclusion, Gene, the only thing I can make out from the WC testimony of Michael and Ruth Paine, is their total  ignorance of anything having to do with the JFK assassination or cover-up.   They were basically innocent by-standers, except that they were standing ultra-close by.

If you have material evidence to the contrary, then please show me.  I've seen none at all in the CT literature of the past 50 years.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited August 16, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Mark Knight]

On 8/15/2017 at 2:11 PM, Paul Trejo said:

James,

Regarding the Secret Service accusation that Ruth Paine wrote the "Walker Letter" -- why didn't the Warren Commission prosecute that accusation?...

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

 

The Warren Commission was an INVESTIGATIVE BODY, not a prosecutor.  

The US Attorney General was NOT on the Warren Commission.

NO PROSECUTORS were on the Warren Commission.

Earl Warren was Chief Justice, which is a JUDGE, and NOT a prosecutor.

The Warren Commission prosecuted NO ONE...because that WAS NOT THEIR MISSION.

 

I believe that's the MOST insane question I've EVER seen asked on these forums...and by someone who SHOULD know how absurd that question is.

And that "thrown out of court" comment was almost humorous, if this wasn't such a serious subject to begin with.

[Chris Newton]

12 hours ago, Gene Kelly said:

Regarding my familiarity with Quakers and Unitarians, I'd remind you that I grew up in Philadelphia, went to college on the Main Line where both Michael and Ruth come from (Paoli, PA), and pass by Swarthmore College (where Ruth's papers are kept, and Michal attended) every morning on the way to work.  I used to live near the Friends school in Germantown where Ruth was a principal.  I have many friends and colleagues who are Quakers, and regularly pass by Quaker Meeting Houses and communities where I work.  

Hey Gene,  I have to confess about my anti-Quaker bias. I'm a direct descendant of "Quaker Sam" Morris  who ironically was ex-communicated by Philadelphia's Quakers for participating in the Revolution. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Morris_(soldier)

In theory, the east coast blue bloods, the Chestnut Hill Set, were the same Ivy League bastards running all our intelligence services, so it would not surprise me in the least if Philadelphia Quakers were used for "cover" along with VOA, USIS & USIA.

 

Edited August 16, 2017 by Chris Newton
I'm an idiot

[Michael Clark]

39 minutes ago, Mark Knight said:

The Warren Commission was an INVESTIGATIVE BODY, not a prosecutor.  

The US Attorney General was NOT on the Warren Commission.

NO PROSECUTORS were on the Warren Commission.

Earl Warren was Chief Justice, which is a JUDGE, and NOT a prosecutor.

The Warren Commission prosecuted NO ONE...because that WAS NOT THEIR MISSION.

 

I believe that's the MOST insane question I've EVER seen asked on these forums...and by someone who SHOULD know how absurd that question is.

And that "thrown out of court" comment was almost humorous, if this wasn't such a serious subject to begin with.

And no one, as far as I know, was charged with perjury for lying to the WC.

[Michael Clark]

5 minutes ago, Chris Newton said:

Hey Gene,  I have to confess about my anti-Quaker bias. I'm a direct ancestor of "Quaker Sam" Morris  who ironically was ex-communicated by Philadelphia's Quakers for participating in the Revolution. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Morris_(soldier)

In theory, the east coast blue bloods, the Chestnut Hill Set, were the same Ivy League bastards running all our intelligence services, so it would not surprise me in the least if Philadelphia Quakers were used for "cover" along with VOA, USIS & USIA.

 

There is a solid Philadelphia connection to the JFKA.

[Gene Kelly]

Attended University of Pennsylvania (Mascot is a Quaker)

[Chris Newton]

23 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

Marina wrote it down, she peeked out the window as he left.

 

It's been established in the testimony that she could not have seen the plate on November 1st or November 5th because Hosty parked his unmarked car down the street. When did Marina record the plate number?

[Michael Clark]

1 minute ago, Gene Kelly said:

Attended University of Pennsylvania (Mascot is a Quaker)

No offense intended, unless, u-did-it. Ha ha!