Trying to Understand this Bronson Frame

[Tony Krome]

31 minutes ago, John Butler said:

At 43 seconds the presidential limousine is very close to the Triple Underpass.  And, here is another odd part.  Really odd.  The limousine takes 6 seconds to move into the shadows under the railroad bridge from a very short distance.   This is the first clear frame at 44 seconds.

It takes another 5 seconds to move into the shadows.  Very odd.

 

A few years ago, I posted to another forum, a detailed study on how slow the limo was travelling.

From the point of the head shot to the triple underpass, I showed how the sprinter, Usain Bolt, starting his run from the same point, would have arrived sooner than the limo. I then expanded the study to the point where the limo turns onto Stemmons and the average speed was shockingly slow.

The average speed of the limo between the head shot and Jack Daniels position was approx 24mph

 

 

 

[Chris Bristow]

Curry said he saw the limo coming up on him and he floored it because he was supposed to stay in from of it. He said by the time he reached the West end of the triple pass the limo had caught up to him. At that point he could hear Greer and Hill yelling "Get to Parkland'. His statement about losing the acceleration race seems inconsistent with the slow moving limo.
I also get about 24 mph as the speed in the underpass. But the film seems to run a bit slow when viewing people running so maybe it was closer to 35.
 Maybe the limo slowed to allow Curry to remain in front. Maybe Greer took a long distance to get up speed because of Jackie on the trunk. At frame 363 the Z film has it  going 15 mph.
  If the limo was going very slow at the Stemmons onramp it would explain why the Macintyre photo shows the 3 lead bikes  cruising at around 25mph. Riding 3 abreast with Lumkin (center) resting his left hand in his lap. Not something the center bike would do at 45 mph when taking a sharp curve. 

    In case this is of value to anyone I want to point out that in the Jack Daniels film the shadows of the 2 cars directly behind the limo show that Curry fell in behind the limo and in front of the Queen Mary, yet Curry testified that the limo never got in front of his ford Galaxy 500. But by the silhouette of Curry's front bumper and the shadow of the flagpole on the front bumper of the QM show that Curry must have followed the limo up the onramp.

[John Butler]

17 hours ago, Ken Rheberg said:

 

After reviewing all of the relevant films and photos as well as statements from witnesses, I feel as confident as I've ever been that the two women, as seen in the Bronson photo, standing by the lamppost, are journalism student Cheryl McKinnon to our left of the post and 36-year-old Doris Mumford to our right of it. Immediately after the shots, the older Mumford dropped down to the grass near the Newmans.  At the same time McKinnon bolted up Elm -- as seen in a frame of the Wiegman film -- and, in my opinion, was the woman who approached both officers Welcome Barnett and Joe Marshall Smith, running, in hysterics, with a report that someone was shooting from the bushes.

Ken

 

I am reposting the original Bronson frame with Ken's information making this frame more complicated. 

Does anyone know who No. 2?  are.  They are either two men or a couple.  I can't resolve that but, it looks like a couple. The figure west of the man looks somehow female.  I'm not sure of that.  Any help would be welcome.

I recall Robin Unger identified either No. 8 or No. 9 at an earlier time in another situation.  So, Robin if you are paying attention look through your notes and see if you can identify No. 9 or any other in the frame particularly No. 3 through No. 9.

There is also a remnant Mannequin Row group under the Mannequin word on the frame.  There should be 19 people stretching from the light pole / R L Thornton sign to the Stemmons sign.  If you count everyone in that area there is only 11 people including the Umbrella Man and Latin Man who are usually not counted. 

Edited January 29, 2019 by John Butler

[Ian Lloyd]

IIRC, possibly 4 & 5 can be seen in other earlier films/photographs standing next to the reflecting pool close to the junction of Main & Houston. Looks like they walk round towards Elm to catch a second look...

[Chris Davidson]

13 hours ago, John Butler said:

 

At 59 seconds Altgens enters the scene and is seen standing by the Newmans.  He crosses the street a few seconds after taking Altgens 6.  The street were clear because the Mayor’s Car and the National Press Pool Car were being held in the intersection.  How long were they held?

 

Altgen's 6 taken at approx z255 = 486-255 = 231/18.3 = 12.62sec while the Wiegman/Bell sync at least 22sec after the headshot, followed by Couch does not = Altgens crossing the street a few seconds after Altgens 6?

Altgens is seen(in Couch) crossing the street as Wiegman makes his run down the knoll.

Look closely down the street toward the lightpost. Guess who that is crossing?

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwrExtVD005OS3QxMXNBemRkSGs/view?usp=sharing

[Michael Cross]

1 hour ago, Chris Davidson said:

Altgen's 6 taken at approx z255 = 486-255 = 231/18.3 = 12.62sec while the Wiegman/Bell sync at least 22sec after the headshot, followed by Couch does not = Altgens crossing the street a few seconds after Altgens 6?

Altgens is seen(in Couch) crossing the street as Wiegman makes his run down the knoll.

Look closely down the street toward the lightpost. Guess who that is crossing?

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwrExtVD005OS3QxMXNBemRkSGs/view?usp=sharing

How striking is it that those vehicles and motorcycles are STOPPED?!  

 

[John Butler]

Chris,

Altgens taking Altgens 6 at frame 255 of Zapruder is an old argument.  I disputed that on several occasions.  Altgens is in the street taking Altgens 6.  The limo is headed directly towards him on Elm Street.  If that matches frame 255 in Zapruder then the Stemmons sign would be behind the limo by about 40 feet and not off to the right in front of the limo.  No amount of camera angle arguments will clear that situation.

(I should have said after Altgens took Algens 7.  I will admit to that)

Just to be adversarial, how long is a few seconds?  Maybe 2 seconds or 20 seconds? 

The argument is based on the internal timing of the Bell film.  Which does not match others because of the Bell Gap.  How long was that gap? 

Altgens is on the other side of north Elm Street early on.  There is no one there when he crosses the street except the Newmans,  DorisMumford, and the vanishing Dallas Policeman.  There is no Wiegman.  He is still on Houston Street.  If not there he is running toward the Grassy Knoll.  There is no Camera Car photographers.  They are still on Houston Street.  The scene is Couch is about a minute after the assassination based on the Bell Gap, how long the Mayor's Car and the National Press Pool Car was held up on Elm at the intersection.  The Wiegman film adds at least 31 seconds to that bill before Couch appears.

Wiegman did not make the run down the Hill.  That is someone else.  Wiegman was standing in front of the light pole by the Stemmons sign when he first filmed the Camera Cars at 37 seconds into the film.

Altgens crossed the street before anyone was there.  The Couch film is so blurry and vague you can't see the Newmans in some frames much less identify Altgens.

Like a lot of folks you like to concentrate on an alleged weakness of a statement without looking at the whole argument.  Cherry picking an alleged weakness is not a good argument. 

Edited January 29, 2019 by John Butler

[John Butler]

Ian,

I just lost a response typed here in the editor for your post.  If two of these show up don't worry.

Your comment is really interesting.  Can you provide which films / photos you looked at on west Main and Houston Sts. 

No. 4 through No. 8 are important people that have been ignored.  We don't know what their testimony would be since they weren't asked.  We don't even know who they are.  What could they tell us about what they saw.

Edited January 29, 2019 by John Butler

[John Butler]

Michael,

The Camera Cars were stopped at the intersection for some time.  Enough time for the Presidential Party and related vehicles to leave the Plaza.  Why?  It is so they would not be able to film anything happening during the assassination or directly after

[Chris Davidson]

52 minutes ago, John Butler said:

The argument is based on the internal timing of the Bell film.  Which does not match others because of the Bell Gap.  How long was that gap? 

 

You haven't supplied a common occurance among two films for any type of syncing.

Here's Bell for you.

Now compare that with the Couch clip I just supplied, towards the end, and you'll see all the same players that are in Bell.

You even get to see the cycle cop at the lamp-post take off toward his motorcycle, just as we see him in Bell.

Who's that near the Newman's, looks like Altgen's to me.

Who's that with the hat on, looks like Wiegman to me.

So Wiegman and Altgens arrive at the Newmans at approx the same point in time.

Anyone care to look at Couch and help John understand this concept??????

 

 

 

[John Butler]

Cris' frame is a bit strange.  Bell is still on the monument when this is being filmed.  How did he get a Main Street perspective on this frame?  The Bell film switches between different perspectives in different parts of the film.  This frame is within a few seconds of the limo going under the Triple Underpass.  The limo goes under the Triple Underpass at 49 seconds and those frames are correct and these frames are from 55 seconds in the film and appear to be from Main Street.  The perspective showing the limo going under the railroad bridge is correct.  This one is questionable.

And, I can't find this frame in the Bell film.  Maybe his Bell film is different than mine.  Observe the following with frames and notes:

I increased the light brightness in the right hand Bell frame until it was difficult to see anything.  I did this in steps and still did not see the questionable figures in Chris' frame.

I just realized by looking at this Altgens has not taken another step.  The Motorcycle Policeman has taken another step in the right hand frame.  And, that explains the different distance between the two.

This film editing would throw any time sequence out of whack.

 

Edited January 29, 2019 by John Butler

[Ken Rheberg]

5 hours ago, John Butler said:

I am reposting the original Bronson frame with Ken's information making this frame more complicated. 

Does anyone know who No. 2?  are.  They are either two men or a couple.  I can't resolve that but, it looks like a couple. The figure west of the man looks somehow female.  I'm not sure of that.  Any help would be welcome.

I recall Robin Unger identified either No. 8 or No. 9 at an earlier time in another situation.  So, Robin if you are paying attention look through your notes and see if you can identify No. 9 or any other in the frame particularly No. 3 through No. 9.

There is also a remnant Mannequin Row group under the Mannequin word on the frame.  There should be 19 people stretching from the light pole / R L Thornton sign to the Stemmons sign.  If you count everyone in that area there is only 11 people including the Umbrella Man and Latin Man who are usually not counted. 

 

Your 2? wearing school jackets and standing near the north Elm Street curb would be just two of the boys from Lester Vester Stockard Junior High School (Now Stockard Middle School).  The rest of the kids can be seen running across the grassy knoll shortly after the shooting, heading for the area where the picket fence meets the Triple Underpass.  By that time the two standing at the curb had run up the knoll to take refuge in the east Pergola shelter.  They then joined their fellow students in the dash across the knoll toward the Underpass/fence location.  All of them apparently had permission from their parents to miss school that day to see the President.  One of the two at the curb, your 2? couple, would have been 14-year-old, ninth-grader Alan Smith.

Ken

 

 

[John Butler]

Ken,

Smith said:

"I was standing on the curb watching the parade along Main street. We were permitted to skip school, if we had a note from our parents, to watch it." "The crowds were cheering, but all at once they changed to screaming. The car was about 10 feet from me when a bullet hit the President in his forehead. The bullets came from a window right over my head in the building in front of which my friends and I were standing." "Mr. Kennedy had a big wide smile. But when he was hit, his face turned blank. There was no smile, no frown - nothing.  He fell down over Jackie's knees and didn't say anything. She stood up screaming 'God, oh God, no.' There was blood all over her and everything. She tried to raise him up but he fell back over her."

Pat Speer disputes this:

From Pat Speer Chapter 7b: More pieces of the Plaza

Alan Smith witness to shooting on Main Street

Alan Smith is one of the more mysterious witnesses. He claimed he witnessed the shooting from up close while standing on Main Street, which made little sense. As a result, I avoided adding him to this list for a long time. In 2012, however, researcher Chris Scally looked into Smith and was able to confirm he attended the school he claimed to have attended, and was only 14 at the time of the shooting. He also made a tentative ID of Smith as one of the two boys standing under the Stemmons Freeway sign in the Wills and Betzner photos. (Scally's article on Smith can be found in the Winter 2012 Dealey Plaza Echo.) In any event, Scally's article convinced me that Smith's claim of being on Main Street was probably an honest mistake, and that he may very well have been on Elm. I mean, how many 14 year-olds from the suburbs know the names of the downtown streets in your hometown? Not a lot, I would guess. (11-22-63 datelined article found in the 11-23-63 Chicago Tribune) "A wide-eyed 14-year-old boy, who was standing 10 feet away and looking directly at President Kennedy at the time of the assassination, told THE CHICAGO TRIBUNE of his astonishment at watching the historic event unfold. "It made me weak!  I felt like sitting down!  It was horrible!" Alan Smith, a Boy Scout and a 9th grade pupil at Stockard Junior High School, related.

I have a tendency to believe what people say of the day of the assassination in their first interview which was published on 11-23-63.  Afterwards, I question things because of FBI and other authorities intimidation of witnesses and evidence tampering.  And, I don't really count after the fact analysis based on assumptions that are just assumptions in the case of Scully and Speer.

Also, Smith said there were cheering from the crowd and the shooting came from a building right over his head.  There are no buildings on Elm St. except the TSBD. 

Even if you go along with Pat Speer or Chris Scally, you can't place him at the Stemmons sign.  There are no buildings there.

Can you list a good reason why Alan Smith should not be believed?

[Ken Rheberg]

3 hours ago, John Butler said:

Ken,

Smith said:

"I was standing on the curb watching the parade along Main street. We were permitted to skip school, if we had a note from our parents, to watch it." "The crowds were cheering, but all at once they changed to screaming. The car was about 10 feet from me when a bullet hit the President in his forehead. The bullets came from a window right over my head in the building in front of which my friends and I were standing." "Mr. Kennedy had a big wide smile. But when he was hit, his face turned blank. There was no smile, no frown - nothing.  He fell down over Jackie's knees and didn't say anything. She stood up screaming 'God, oh God, no.' There was blood all over her and everything. She tried to raise him up but he fell back over her."

Pat Speer disputes this:

From Pat Speer Chapter 7b: More pieces of the Plaza

Alan Smith witness to shooting on Main Street

Alan Smith is one of the more mysterious witnesses. He claimed he witnessed the shooting from up close while standing on Main Street, which made little sense. As a result, I avoided adding him to this list for a long time. In 2012, however, researcher Chris Scally looked into Smith and was able to confirm he attended the school he claimed to have attended, and was only 14 at the time of the shooting. He also made a tentative ID of Smith as one of the two boys standing under the Stemmons Freeway sign in the Wills and Betzner photos. (Scally's article on Smith can be found in the Winter 2012 Dealey Plaza Echo.) In any event, Scally's article convinced me that Smith's claim of being on Main Street was probably an honest mistake, and that he may very well have been on Elm. I mean, how many 14 year-olds from the suburbs know the names of the downtown streets in your hometown? Not a lot, I would guess. (11-22-63 datelined article found in the 11-23-63 Chicago Tribune) "A wide-eyed 14-year-old boy, who was standing 10 feet away and looking directly at President Kennedy at the time of the assassination, told THE CHICAGO TRIBUNE of his astonishment at watching the historic event unfold. "It made me weak!  I felt like sitting down!  It was horrible!" Alan Smith, a Boy Scout and a 9th grade pupil at Stockard Junior High School, related.

I have a tendency to believe what people say of the day of the assassination in their first interview which was published on 11-23-63.  Afterwards, I question things because of FBI and other authorities intimidation of witnesses and evidence tampering.  And, I don't really count after the fact analysis based on assumptions that are just assumptions in the case of Scully and Speer.

Also, Smith said there were cheering from the crowd and the shooting came from a building right over his head.  There are no buildings on Elm St. except the TSBD. 

Even if you go along with Pat Speer or Chris Scally, you can't place him at the Stemmons sign.  There are no buildings there.

Can you list a good reason why Alan Smith should not be believed?

 

John,

It's good to see that Chris Scally and Pat Speer came up with the same conclusion that I had about Alan Smith.  Up until today, I hadn't seen their articles/remarks on this subject.  A number of years ago I passed on what I had come up with at  the time to Debra Conway on the Lancer forum.  She had an interest in this witness.  I included contact information for the school librarian and suggested that attempts be made to turn up the Stockard 1963-1964 yearbook in order to confirm that an Alan Smith had indeed been a student there.

It seems like this information was then either passed on, directly or indirectly, in one way or another, to Chris Scally or Chris took note of my post himself from the forum thread.  At any rate, he did exactly what I had recommended by contacting the school while I continued on with my efforts to do the same.  We both discovered, independently, and unfortunately and unexpectedly, that there was no 1963-1964 yearbook in the library to review.  A phone number was given to me for a city office that might be able to provide some assistance.  I reached a dead end.  Chris was given the same number.  He persevered and got the answer that he was looking for.  Good for Chris!

He was able to confirm that Alan Smith was a student at the school during that time period.  Bob Goodman was not.  That means Goodman's story about being Alan Smith should be disregarded.  Smith's location on Main Street rather than Elm Street was a simple mistake.  And his mention of a building from which shots were fired being behind him (the TSBD) is correct.  Have you ever been to Dealey Plaza?  Very small and compact.  The TSBD really was behind him.  I believe witness Alan Smith, and I have no reason not to believe him.  There may be more of the story to uncover if he is still alive and efforts are made to reach him.

Ken

 

 

Edited January 30, 2019 by Ken Rheberg

[John Butler]

Thanks Ken,

Speer and Scally denigrate Alan Smith as “mysterious”, “he claimed”, “was not able to confirm”, “whether he attended the school he claimed to have attended”, “was only 14 at the time”, “made a tentative ID”, “honest mistake”, “how many 14 year-olds know from the suburbs know”, “a wide-eyed 14 year old”, etc.  They made a 14 year old student a bogey man.

I have spent nearly 3 decades around 14 years-old kids.  You can’t just say they are goofy because they are age 14 as Speer and Scally do.  Kids are always surprising and many are more mature and intelligent than most think.  Speer and Scally do a continuous ad hominem attack on Alan Smith to destroy his testimony.  They had an agenda.

Whether a school kept a copy of a yearbook or not doesn’t mean someone did not go to school there.  Who is Bob Goodman and what is his relevance?  Why would he be believed over Smith.   Smith didn’t say the building was behind him he said the shots came from overhead directly above him.  I don’t think you really believe Alan Smith or give credit what he said.

I have more reason now to believe what he said then before. 

I have been is Dealey Plaza before when I first went to Texas in 1969.  The last trip was in 2015.

Thanks anyway.  I have enjoyed the conversation.

Edited January 30, 2019 by John Butler