Carmine Savastano on Mike Swanson's show: Richard Case Nagell can be easily disproven.

[Micah Mileto]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kgJ3G96aH7U

 

 

Sure glad I listened to this before wasting time on Nagell. Unless anyone can refute the points raised?

[B. A. Copeland]

Well Doug Campbell had a very interesting audio on Nagell recently. I think its definitely worth considering before we wholesale dismiss Nagell. Perhaps there is something there with him, perhaps not.

https://www.spreaker.com/user/7338953/144-december-14-2018-a-cabinet-of-curios

Essentially the bit on Nagell is "about the strange tale of Richard Case Nagell and an Army Intelligence Agent murdered in Japan", which I've never heard before but I believe this was from the recent file release.

[Micah Mileto]

This guy says Nagell shot in the direction of the Teller and RAN from the Police before giving up.

[Larry Hancock]

The fact that Carmine and I are good friends and that I know Mike as well illustrates how such subjects can produce very different interpretations but still lead to a conclusion of agreeing to disagree...grin.  Carmine and I have debated Nagell on the air before and probably will again at some point so there can be survivors.  If you are interested and have not read Dick Russells most recent book on Nagell (or the 2010 version of SWHT for that matter) you really should do so before bailing on the subject.

I reached my own conclusions after several years of study and obtaining/reading hundreds of pages of Nagell related documents (including his military and medical files, court proceeding documents and all his personal correspondence related to his court filings and government disability claims).  I also interviewed a couple of key characters who knew him including Vaughn Marlow.

The case against Nagell as a source is based largely on medical issues...and its exacerbated by his own remarks over the years including the fact that he did adjust his story depending on situational elements....especially when he went to court to fight for custody of his children in a case versus his wife (he won, which might suggest something).  Its equally interesting that he refused to change his basic story when the judge reviewing his case (LBJ's personal friend whom he later nominated to the supreme court) issued an order that his conviction would be overturned and he would be released if he admitted to a false plea  (think about how many times that offer gets made in real life).

So, not here to argue the case...Carmine and I might have a rematch some day (we were just on air last night with Chuck Ochelli on our JFK series).   I would say just don't toss Nagell - whose claims regarding the assassination boil down to nothing more than observing Cuban exiles representing themselves as Castro agents meeting with Oswald to manipulate him and maneuver him into some action in Washington DC in September - without doing your homework.  And of course as to that one point, its is totally and independently verifiable based on things Nagell could not have seen at the time he described...such as Oswald's letters to the SWP and CPUSA about a move to the Washington area in September and the fact that one of the first series of questions asked by the FBI of Marina after the assassination was her knowledge of this travel to Washington.

[Ron Bulman]

23 minutes ago, Larry Hancock said:

The fact that Carmine and I are good friends and that I know Mike as well illustrates how such subjects can produce very different interpretations but still lead to a conclusion of agreeing to disagree...grin.  Carmine and I have debated Nagell on the air before and probably will again at some point so there can be survivors.  If you are interested and have not read Dick Russells most recent book on Nagell (or the 2010 version of SWHT for that matter) you really should do so before bailing on the subject.

I reached my own conclusions after several years of study and obtaining/reading hundreds of pages of Nagell related documents (including his military and medical files, court proceeding documents and all his personal correspondence related to his court filings and government disability claims).  I also interviewed a couple of key characters who knew him including Vaughn Marlow.

The case against Nagell as a source is based largely on medical issues...and its exacerbated by his own remarks over the years including the fact that he did adjust his story depending on situational elements....especially when he went to court to fight for custody of his children in a case versus his wife (he won, which might suggest something).  Its equally interesting that he refused to change his basic story when the judge reviewing his case (LBJ's personal friend whom he later nominated to the supreme court) issued an order that his conviction would be overturned and he would be released if he admitted to a false plea  (think about how many times that offer gets made in real life).

So, not here to argue the case...Carmine and I might have a rematch some day (we were just on air last night with Chuck Ochelli on our JFK series).   I would say just don't toss Nagell - whose claims regarding the assassination boil down to nothing more than observing Cuban exiles representing themselves as Castro agents meeting with Oswald to manipulate him and maneuver him into some action in Washington DC in September - without doing your homework.  And of course as to that one point, its is totally and independently verifiable based on things Nagell could not have seen at the time he described...such as Oswald's letters to the SWP and CPUSA about a move to the Washington area in September and the fact that one of the first series of questions asked by the FBI of Marina after the assassination was her knowledge of this travel to Washington.

I'm so lost.  So not everything Dick Russell wrote about Nagell is total junk?

[James DiEugenio]

Micah,

I am really surprised that you billed this as you did.  I mean, have you not done any study of Nagell for yourself at all?

I am also really disappointed in Chuck Ochelli.  

This is nothing less than a hatchet job.  The kind of thing that Dave Reitzes or Fred Litwin or Paul Hoch or McAdams would do.

Nagell has so many corroborating witnesses--BEFORE THE ASSASSINATION--that its a little ridiculous to blame this on his marital problems.  But Carmine leaves them all out.  Why?

Is the arresting policeman, Bundren, a xxxx also? He told Russell that Nagell predicted the assassination before it happened to him. (p. 3)

Russell describes the shooting incident in his second edition, pp 105-08.

The ID has Oswald's picture on it and its in the book.

[James DiEugenio]

Go through this review, and as you do, count up the corroborating witnesses Nagell has, all the way to the end.

Maybe his sister and her husband were liars also?

https://kennedysandking.com/content/russell-dick-on-the-trail-of-the-jfk-assassins-richard-case-nagell-the-most-important-witness-part-2

[Larry Hancock]

I haven't heard the recent show myself however I can say that when Carmine and I debated Nagell Chuck moderated it and pretty clearly expressed his personal views that Nagell had long been of interest to him and I had the impression that he was not ready to write him off.  Chuck's pretty good at letting pros and cons be presented without trampling the exchange.

Edited February 2, 2019 by Larry Hancock

[Ron Bulman]

Gentlemen, as no ladies have posted recently but Pamela.  I feel sure your all aware of something I'd never realized the possible importance of.  Nagell did what he did and said what he did when arrested in El Paso over two months before the assassination, September 20th 1963.  He had advance knowledge  of what was going to happen in specifically Dallas two months before it happened.   

Two months before the parade route was finalized when arrested he said "I would rather be arrested than commit murder and treason."  "I'm glad you caught me, I don't want to be in Dallas.". 

Two months before.  Washington, Florida and Chicago were all distractions to lull any really concerned security in to numbness?

[David Andrews]

Nagell had to dodge and weave, and it was in his character to buck as well.  He was a sardonic jokester, the refuge of the disillusioned and used.  The facts of his predictions remain.  He was one species of the quintessential modern man confronted with the absurdity of spy games beyond his powers of reason, leading to fatality for too many people.  Howard Hunt, John Martino, David Ferrie, more - these were other species.

The most troublesome and infuriating part of Nagell's professions - and of Dick Russel's research - is the refusal, or inability, to define Oswald precisely.  That definition is the the key to Nagell's locks.

Edited February 2, 2019 by David Andrews

[David Andrews]

On 2/1/2019 at 4:15 PM, B. A. Copeland said:

Well Doug Campbell had a very interesting audio on Nagell recently. I think its definitely worth considering before we wholesale dismiss Nagell. Perhaps there is something there with him, perhaps not.

https://www.spreaker.com/user/7338953/144-december-14-2018-a-cabinet-of-curios

Essentially the bit on Nagell is "about the strange tale of Richard Case Nagell and an Army Intelligence Agent murdered in Japan", which I've never heard before but I believe this was from the recent file release.

This was more worthwhile than I thought.  Nagell's only in the second half, and the dialogue is Texas-loquacious as all hell, but sometimes review of a subject by others points you to things you'd overlooked.

[Larry Hancock]

For reference we have now confirmed that Henry Hecksher (likely the BOB aka the Berlin Operating Base character) referenced by Nagell in Mexico City was in Japan at the same time as Nagell and Oswald and that Hecksher  was also on special assignment to Mexico City in the same time frame that Nagell reports being contacted by him  there (as someone he knew from Japan) in Mexico City - Hecksher's presence in Mexico City has even verified by his CIA travel record.  Nagell's rather strange attempt at an Oswald like embassy pseudo defection in Mexico City has also been documented.

[B. A. Copeland]

6 hours ago, Larry Hancock said:

For reference we have now confirmed that Henry Hecksher (likely the BOB aka the Berlin Operating Base character) referenced by Nagell in Mexico City was in Japan at the same time as Nagell and Oswald and that Hecksher  was also on special assignment to Mexico City in the same time frame that Nagell reports being contacted by him  there (as someone he knew from Japan) in Mexico City - Hecksher's presence in Mexico City has even verified by his CIA travel record.  Nagell's rather strange attempt at an Oswald like embassy pseudo defection in Mexico City has also been documented.

Thats huge Larry. Thanks.

11 hours ago, David Andrews said:

This was more worthwhile than I thought.  Nagell's only in the second half, and the dialogue is Texas-loquacious as all hell, but sometimes review of a subject by others points you to things you'd overlooked.

I couldn't agree more David. I believe that is definitely they key to a strong research community. I don't and cannot know it all, so I welcome error in my own thinking and research, study, etc, as well as welcome the study, thinking and opinions of others.

Edited February 5, 2019 by B. A. Copeland

[Rob Couteau]

On 2/4/2019 at 10:17 AM, David Andrews said:

but sometimes review of a subject by others points you to things you'd overlooked.

B.A. Copeland & David, Thanks for posting this; I look forward to listening to it. I read the first edition of Dick Russell's "The Man Who Knew Too Much" about a year ago; and although it's poorly edited, it contains many intriguing clues and was certainly worth reading. (I understand however that the second edition represents a considerable improvement.) For anyone who hasn't read it, to offer just a few examples, Russell has some interesting things to say about what was happening in Japan; the whole Counterintelligence Corps (CIC) operation in the Pacific Rim; and the possible meanings of the Alek Hidell alias. One also has to keep in mind that Nagell was trying to stay alive, and he was concerned about the fate of his children, so there was a real limit to how much he would say and how he would say it. In that sense he really wasn't the man who talked too much, but rather one who was at times forced to talk in a rather oblique fashion. I think it might make for a worthwhile project if someone could interview Russell at this later date to see how his thinking about Nagell has evolved over the years and how he himself might synthesize the key points in Nagell's chronicle, especially in light of what we know now about the JFK assassination. Also, as Russell points out, the circumstances and timing of Nagell's death were highly suspicious.

Edited February 15, 2019 by Rob Couteau

[John Kozlowski]

On 2/1/2019 at 8:25 PM, Larry Hancock said:

The fact that Carmine and I are good friends and that I know Mike as well illustrates how such subjects can produce very different interpretations but still lead to a conclusion of agreeing to disagree...grin.  Carmine and I have debated Nagell on the air before and probably will again at some point so there can be survivors.  If you are interested and have not read Dick Russells most recent book on Nagell (or the 2010 version of SWHT for that matter) you really should do so before bailing on the subject.

I reached my own conclusions after several years of study and obtaining/reading hundreds of pages of Nagell related documents (including his military and medical files, court proceeding documents and all his personal correspondence related to his court filings and government disability claims).  I also interviewed a couple of key characters who knew him including Vaughn Marlow.

The case against Nagell as a source is based largely on medical issues...and its exacerbated by his own remarks over the years including the fact that he did adjust his story depending on situational elements....especially when he went to court to fight for custody of his children in a case versus his wife (he won, which might suggest something).  Its equally interesting that he refused to change his basic story when the judge reviewing his case (LBJ's personal friend whom he later nominated to the supreme court) issued an order that his conviction would be overturned and he would be released if he admitted to a false plea  (think about how many times that offer gets made in real life).

So, not here to argue the case...Carmine and I might have a rematch some day (we were just on air last night with Chuck Ochelli on our JFK series).   I would say just don't toss Nagell - whose claims regarding the assassination boil down to nothing more than observing Cuban exiles representing themselves as Castro agents meeting with Oswald to manipulate him and maneuver him into some action in Washington DC in September - without doing your homework.  And of course as to that one point, its is totally and independently verifiable based on things Nagell could not have seen at the time he described...such as Oswald's letters to the SWP and CPUSA about a move to the Washington area in September and the fact that one of the first series of questions asked by the FBI of Marina after the assassination was her knowledge of this travel to Washington.

Hi Larry, big fan of yours here. Does the updated version of TMWKTM contain much more than previous versions? I believe the copy I have is from the late 90's it may even be the original print. Also I just purchased 2 of your books. Unidentified and Killing King. Really into the King book. One of the best I've read on his assassination so far. Thanks for the work that you do.