“The lights all went out,” and the elevators stopped while JFK was murdered. Shelley and Lovelady were near the bottom of the back staircase, by the electrical panel... and Vickie Adams saw them ... until everyone's story changed...

[Jim Hargrove]

Sandy,

It’s very true that there is no mention of Shelley or Lovelady in Adams’ FBI report of 11/24.  But we both know that the FBI altered statements of many different witnesses.  I’m sure you will agree that the FBI reports are the LEAST reliable documents we have.  But your analysis says that the Dallas cops and the Warren Commission attorneys conspired together to put words into Vickie Adams’ mouth about the location of Shelley and Lovelady at the bottom of the stairs.

It is certainly hard to know who to trust in this case, but I’ll take the Dallas cops and even the WC attorneys any day over the FBI.  Wouldn’t you?

Here’s what John wrote about the FBI report you showed:
 

Victoria Adams was interviewed by the FBI on 11/24/63. The report read, "She and her friend (Sandra Styles) ran immediately to the back of the building to where the stairs were located and ran down the stairs. No one else was observed on the stairs at this time, and she is sure that this would be the only means of escape from the building from the sixth floor."  Adams said, "Whenever anyone was on the stairs you could hear them on any floor. We would have heard someone on the stairs. Absolutely." Adams and Styles ran out of the building, turned to the left and ran across the railroad tracks...." The FBI altered statements of many witnesses, and so we don't know with certainty what Victoria Adams really told the FBI agents on 11/24/63, but this FBI report does not mention anything about Shelley or Lovelady.
 

[Ron Bulman]

After re reading several pages in The Girl On The Stairs it seems Barry Ernst was convinced Adams did not see Shelly or Lovelady on the first floor before she went out through the back dock.  Their "appearance" is in an unsigned copy of her statement for the Warren Omission released in 1967 from the National Archives.  In spite of waiving her right to review it a copy was hand delivered to her, she reviewed it and made six corrections.  A copy of this was sent, along with a letter by Martha Jo Stroud from the office of Judge Barefoot Sanders to David Belin in 1964 well before the report was published, with the uncorrected version in it.  Ernst discovered the Stroud letter in 1999.  Two months after Ernst's self published 1st version of his book came out in 2011 with the Stroud letter info in it, a second version was released with the corrections in it.  But, if I understand it right, still containing the Shelly/Lovelady info.  Both she and Sandra Styles saw a large black man who worked there ("among others" according to Styles, but not Shelly or Lovelady as she knew and would have recognized them, years later, per Bart earlier in the thread).

"Miss Adams told me she did not see the names Shelly and Lovelady in the copy of her testimony she reviewed in Dallas.  She said if she had, she would have removed those references."  This does not mean someone else could have turned the power off, then back on.

[John Butler]

On ‎2‎/‎15‎/‎2019 at 8:27 PM, Jim Hargrove said:

The man Americans know as “Lee Harvey Oswald” wasn’t on the 6th floor of the Book Depository at the time JFK was killed.  Although numerous witnesses saw two men on the 6th floor just before the shooting, both men apparently escaped unseen and unheard at just about time the electricity went off in the building.  

Shelley and Lovelady were at the bottom of the rear stairs near the electric panel when the electricity in the building was shut off.  Young Vickie Adams was running down the rear stairs just before Baker and Truly charged up them, apparently to encounter Oswald entering the lunch room (probably arriving from his position outside the front of the building, where he would use the front staircase to go up to the lunch room, explaining why no one saw him on the rear staircase).  Roy Truly charged up the stairs ahead of Baker without any apparent fear whatsoever of running into an armed assassin.

Victoria Adams was hounded for years because she said she didn't encounter "LHO" on the rear staircase, and she should have if the Warren Commission version was correct.  Shelley and Lovelady distanced themselves ever farther from the TSBD electrical panel for months after their initial statements.

John A. has been working on an important update to his “Escape from the Sixth Floor” page on my website for several weeks.  I just uploaded his latest material a few hours ago. This is a phenomenal read!  To see most of just the latest updates, click on the link below.

https://harveyandlee.net/TSBD_Elevator/TSBD_elevator.html#Electricity

To read “Escape from the Sixth Floor” in it’s entirety, click below:

https://harveyandlee.net/TSBD_Elevator/TSBD_elevator.html

I read the account at harveyandlee.net and the alternate escape is more plausible than I first realized. 

There is one thing that bothers me.  The passenger elevator electricity was turned off for about two minutes.  Could it have been more than two minutes?  Someone was on the 6th floor rearranging boxes about 2 minutes after the assassination as noticed by different photos of the TSBD taken after the assassination by the motorcade camera crews.

Was this accounted for in the explanation or I did I miss it?  If the rearrangement of boxes is real there was someone there about 2 minutes after the assassination and may have placed boxes over any floor boards tampered with by the Sniper's Nest team.  This person could be the person seen by Truly and Baker on the 3rd or 4th floor in Baker's first report.  This person was never identified or even considered after 11-23-63.

This is a bit of a stretch but just possible if the times are stretched a little past 1 1/2 minutes for the 2nd floor incident (which never happened) to over 2 minutes to allow someone to come down the steps and meet Truly and Baker.  Baker makes his run in the Couch-Darnell film at about 30 seconds plus after the assassination.  Depending on how long the Mayor's Car and National Press Pool Car was held up on Elm before moving down Elm Street.  There could be as much as 40 seconds before Baker gets to the TSBD doorway.  8 seconds for the shooting.  Possibly 3 to 5 seconds for Weigman to get to Elm Street.  Possibly 8 seconds of the Mayor's car sitting still.  30 seconds for Weigman to film the Camera Cars coming onto Elm with the Camera Car #3 crew (Couch and Darnell) filming the TSBD at 37 0r 38 seconds into the Weigman film and 1 to 2 seconds before we see Baker running to the TSBD.  Possible maximum length of time for Baker's run = 50 to 52 seconds.

Others dispute this timing.  What is speculative is the timing of how long the Mayor's Car was stopped in the intersection.  Baker is not seen at 13 seconds of Weigman and should be if he made his ride and run in 15 seconds to the TSBD doorway.

Edited February 20, 2019 by John Butler

[Ron Bulman]

1 hour ago, Ron Bulman said:

After re reading several pages in The Girl On The Stairs it seems Barry Ernst was convinced Adams did not see Shelly or Lovelady on the first floor before she went out through the back dock.  Their "appearance" is in an unsigned copy of her statement for the Warren Omission released in 1967 from the National Archives.  In spite of waiving her right to review it a copy was hand delivered to her, she reviewed it and made six corrections.  A copy of this was sent, along with a letter by Martha Jo Stroud from the office of Judge Barefoot Sanders to David Belin in 1964 well before the report was published, with the uncorrected version in it.  Ernst discovered the Stroud letter in 1999.  Two months after Ernst's self published 1st version of his book came out in 2011 with the Stroud letter info in it, a second version was released with the corrections in it.  But, if I understand it right, still containing the Shelly/Lovelady info.  Both she and Sandra Styles saw a large black man who worked there ("among others" according to Styles, but not Shelly or Lovelady as she knew and would have recognized them, years later, per Bart earlier in the thread).

"Miss Adams told me she did not see the names Shelly and Lovelady in the copy of her testimony she reviewed in Dallas.  She said if she had, she would have removed those references."  This does not mean someone else could have turned the power off, then back on.

I.E.  I stand corrected about my previous interpretation.

[Tony Krome]

12 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

I don't understand why John's theory has Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady at the back of the building shortly after the shots. They weren't there.

First, we know that Victoria Adams came down the stairs immediately after the shots. And we know that she did NOT see Lovelady or Shelley as she exited the stairway on the first floor... she said so herself, to Barry Ernest.

Second, Shelley and Lovelady lied in their WC testimonies. But even if they were to be believed, they wouldn't have arrived at the back of the building till several minutes after the shooting.

John doesn't seem to know the story of how the WC eliminated Oswald's alibi:

1. The WC fabricated the Baker/Oswald encounter in order to move Oswald's true location (on the first floor, out on the steps) to the second floor at the rear of the building.
2. Later the WC realized that Victoria Adams' testimony contradicted the official story. She should have at least heard Oswald running down the steps as she descended the stairwell, but she didn't.
3. The WC solved the Victoria Adams problem by altering her testimony. They added that she saw Shelley and Lovelady when she exited the stairwell on the first floor. And....
4. The WC got Shelley and Lovelady to say they arrived at the back of the building several minutes after the shooting. This resulted in discrediting Victoria Adams' claim to have descended the stairway immediately after the shooting. Problem solved.

 

I don't believe Adams saw Shelley and Lovelady either, but who do you think these guys were?

Mr. BAKER - On the first floor there were two men. As we came through the main doorway to the elevators, I remember as we tried to get on the elevators I remember two men, one was sitting on this side and another one between 20 or 30 feet away from us looking at us.
Mr. DULLES - Were they white men?
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir.

At least one of these white guys is sitting. Who does that immediately after a shooting? Cool customers for sure

Edited February 20, 2019 by Tony Krome

[Jim Hargrove]

If Adams’ Warren Commission testimony and statement to DPD detective James Leavelle are legit, then the two white men seen by Baker just seconds after Adams and Styles reached the first floor were obviously Shelley and Lovelady.  If the statements are frauds, as many here seem to believe, then we must wonder who those two men were.

From a floor plan of the TSBD first floor, you can see that the second man Baker said was “20 or 30 feet away,” could be right in the vicinity of the electrical panel.  Considering there were obvious questions about the power to all three elevators in the building, and power at least on the second, third, and fourth floors (the offices), an effort should have been made to identify these men.

Who could have easily identified them?  Answer: Roy Truly, who accompanied Baker to the foot of the rear staircase.  But, of course, he wasn’t asked.  The only one who was asked was Baker, who was unfamiliar with TSBD employees.

If the two white men weren’t Shelley and Lovelady, who were they?  And why did both Shelley and Lovelady, in later statements, claim it took them more and more time to re-enter the building?  Their earliest statements indicated they went back inside the building quite quickly.

Thanks to all for this interesting discussion.  

[Paul Jolliffe]

18 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Besides my concerns about Shelley and Lovelady and the presence of power supply in the front of the building, there is also a question of the assassins' exit from the building. John suggests they exited the lift on the first floor. How could they be certain that they would not be seen by people standing close to the lift? They could not know who would stand there, this was beyond their control. No assassin would agree to a venture with uncertain escape. Further, how could they restore the wooden floor from below the floor - there would be certain signs that the wooden floor was tempered with, e.g. missing nails or similar. 

Andrej,

Yes, the actual departure from the passenger elevator did pose a risk for the escaping assassins. However, John has posited that one of them, the brown coat man, in fact was seen leaving the TSBD on the Houston Street side by both James Worrell and Richard Carr. This man did not leave the TSBD via the front door and go down the front steps. After departing the TSBD, this man apparently then drove the Nash Rambler to the spot on Elm Street where he picked up a white-shirted man running down the slope, away from the southwestern side of the TSBD. That man (white shirt) was seen by Roger Craig, and Craig believed he witnessed the flight of (LHO) from the scene, abetted by the brown jacket man from the sixth floor of the depository.

(Now, I disagree with John about the post-assassination 2nd floor lunchroom encounter, but that is not the point here.)

The two men on the sixth floor - seen by at least five and perhaps as many as forty witnesses before the assassination - escaped somehow: they did not run down the back stairs, they did not run down the fire escape, and there is no good evidence that they came down one of the old, noisy, slow freight elevators, elevators whose open gates would have made them easy to spot by anyone as those elevators descended.

None of those are viable options.

John's floorboard escape to the passenger elevator theory is plausible. That's why I wonder if the (unstated) purpose of the floor-laying crew was to loosen the boards near the "sniper's nest" to facilitate the escape. I am not saying all or even any of that crew knew the purpose - merely that their work could well have been the cover needed to loosen the boards for the getaway, and to prevent any later investigators from realizing just what had happened around the southeast corner window, just above the 5th floor elevator shaft.

Andrej, your question about the risk the moment they stepped off the passenger elevator is legitimate, but not insurmountable for John's theory to be correct. I have more to say soon.

Meanwhile:

I'd like to ask the readership about the possibility/probability/certainty that the man with whom Marrion Baker came face-to-face (with the light brown jacket man, a 30 year old white man with dark hair, 5'9, 165 lbs), as described in Baker's first day affidavit, was, in fact the same man seen by Worrell, Carr, and Craig?

 

 

Edited February 20, 2019 by Paul Jolliffe

[Cory Santos]

Do we know any names or did the Warren Omission even try to track down the individuals who worked on the floor of the TSBD?

[Sandy Larsen]

On 2/19/2019 at 7:49 PM, Jim Hargrove said:

But we both know that the FBI altered statements of many different witnesses.  I’m sure you will agree that the FBI reports are the LEAST reliable documents we have.  But your analysis says that the Dallas cops and the Warren Commission attorneys conspired together to put words into Vickie Adams’ mouth about the location of Shelley and Lovelady at the bottom of the stairs.

Jim,

There is a large amount of evidence that Oswald was on the steps during or right after the shooting, and that the WC suppressed this by fabricating the 2nd floor Baker/Oswald encounter and discrediting Victoria Adams' account. An integral part of this narrative is that the WC fabricated Bill Shelley's and Billy Lovelady's presence at the back of the first floor shortly after the shooting. All of this fits together so well and makes so much sense that I consider it to be factual.

So I'm afraid I cannot accept John's escape story, at least not the parts regarding Shelley, Lovelady, Adams, and maybe others.

 

[Sandy Larsen]

21 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

.... why did both Shelley and Lovelady, in later statements, claim it took them more and more time to re-enter the building?  Their earliest statements indicated they went back inside the building quite quickly.

The reason Shelley and Lovelady changed their story, delaying their re-entry into the west door of the TSBS, is this:

Victoria Adams had said that she came down the steps right after the shooting. She should have heard Oswald coming down the stairs, but didn't. So her account contradicted the official story of Oswald rushing down to the second floor.

The WC solved this problem by discrediting the timing given by Adams. They coached both Shelley and Lovelady into testifying that they spent three minutes on the front steps (waited there till Gloria Calvery arrived), and then wandered over to the railroad yard, and then into the west door. Plus the WC altered Adams' statements and testimony so that it had her seeing Shelley and Lovelady upon exiting the stairway on the first floor (which she really didn't). This "proving" that Adams had come down the stairway LATE, not immediately as she had maintained. And that is the supposed reason she didn't hear Oswald coming down the steps.

Of course the real reason Adams didn't hear Oswald coming down the steps immediately after the shooting is that he DIDN'T come down the steps at all. He was outside watching the motorcade.

 

Edited February 21, 2019 by Sandy Larsen

[Tony Krome]

Looking at this gif, it'd be a safe bet that the officer in a hurry would reach the elevators before the pair circled would. 

 

Edited February 21, 2019 by Tony Krome

[Jim Hargrove]

Tony,

I've gotten several messages from people saying the guys circled in your gif are Shelley and Lovelady, but I see no evidence for that.

[Jim Hargrove]

Sandy,

OTOH, maybe the initial statements by Adams, Shelley, Lovelady, and Baker are all reasonably honest, and were changed later because of intimidation (in Vickie Adams' case) and fear of discovery in the plot (Shelley and Lovelady).

[Sandy Larsen]

1 hour ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Sandy,

OTOH, maybe the initial statements by Adams, Shelley, Lovelady, and Baker are all reasonably honest, and were changed later because of intimidation (in Vickie Adams' case) and fear of discovery in the plot (Shelley and Lovelady).

 

Yes, maybe.

We also believe that their initial statements were honest. In fact, it was the changes in their stories that ultimately led to our belief that their stories were changed in an effort to cover up Oswald's being out front during the assassination.

 

[John Butler]

The frame no. 1 in Krome’s gif is from the opening scenes, the first frames, of the Couch-Darnell film.  It is at the time the motorcycle policeman allegedly Marion Baker makes his run for the TSBD doorway.  This shows two figures that are said to be Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady.  I can’t find this frame after three pass throughs at a single frame at a time.  I’m sure its there but, I am having trouble finding it.  Maybe, Chris Davidson can help out.  He has fixed my most recent blunder.  Which, I once again thank him.

This is from the opening scenes of Couch-Darnell which is from the first 1-2 seconds of the film.  This happens at about the same time as 37-38 seconds into the Weigman film.  This is at least 30 seconds or so after shooting has happened in Dealey Plaza.  Marion Baker is supposed to have made his ride and run into the TSBD in 15 seconds.  This gives him time for the 2^nd floor break room story.

The problem is that that didn’t happen in 15 seconds according to this frame.  Nor, is the Lovelady figure in this frame Billy Lovelady from Couch-Darnell based on his appearance.

Lovelady’s appearance is well known based on Altgens 6.  The Oswald figure in Altgens 6 is acknowledged by most as Billy Lovelady.  Lovelady said he was that figure.  He lied (falsehood) through his teeth.

Look at how he is dressed in Altgens 6:

The figure that is allegedly Lovelady is dressed in a patterned shirt, open midway down, with long sleeves rolled down.  This is not the way PM is dressed in Weigman and Couch-Darnell.  PM’s shirt Weigman / Couch-Darnell is buttoned to the throat and sleeves rolled up to the elbow.  Now look at the figure I have identified as Lovelady.  He has a white in appearance short sleeve shirt.  This is the same clothing you will find on the Lovelady figure in the Krome gif.  Let’s look at frame no. 1 from that gif above.  The figure identified as Lovelady has the same appearance as the figure I identified as Lovelady in Altgens 6.

The frame no. 1 is difficult to see so, lets look at frame no. 55 in the gif.  That too is difficult but, you should see a short sleeve shirt as versus a long sleeve shirt.

The Lovelady figure is in a short sleeve shirt in this frame.  He is the same as the Lovelady figure I identified in Altgens 6.  This may not be Lovelady, but another.  The image quality is weak here and in Altgens 6 there is no head for the figure I identified as Lovelady.  This figure is the same one seen in the doorway of Altgens 6.  He is definitely not the Oswald figure because he is wearing a light colored short sleeve shirt rather than a long sleeve dark patterned shirt.  Lovelady, I think said later he was wearing a short sleeve shirt.  Then, of course he identified himself as Doorway Man.

Now is the time for speculation based on what has been discussed above.  The films Weigman / Couch Darnell show that Prayer Man is in the doorway for both films.  The difference between the films is at least 30 seconds.  Weigman’s opening frames (which start at 8 seconds into the film) maybe 11 to 15 seconds after the first shot.  It could be longer say, 21 seconds if you count the first 8 seconds of the Weigman film.

If PM is in the doorway of the TSBD that early then one can speculate he was there when the shooting in the assassination occurred.  I personally don’t like this idea due to the imagery of the John Martin film.  However, it is a reasonable judgement based on the evidence provided.

In my opinion the Oswald figure in Altgens 6 is photo edited into a Billy Lovelady figure with a face mask of Lovelady.  I don’t see any editing of the figure’s shirt.  Its possible that the shirt is edited and we have PM below the face mask and the edited shirt.  I don’t care for this idea either due to the 5 seconds of a figure I call PM on Elm Street in the John Martin film.

If that figure is Oswald and PM is Oswald the two don’t match in Altgens and the Weigman/Couch-Darnell films.  That leaves two Oswalds.  Then, how does one account for the Oswald figure seen on the 6^th floor Sniper’s Nest.  That gives 3 Oswalds.  That if real is a real conundrum.

I like the harveyandlee people talking about two Oswalds at the TSBD.  It fits my biases.  It explains a lot of the contradictions about Oswald that day.  However, 3 Oswalds is a different story.

The Oswald Project could have routinely used two Oswalds in most situations, in Japan, in Russia, in New Orleans, and in Dallas.  There were others who doubled Oswald in other instances.  Harvey and Lee look enough alike to fool people (that is except John Pic).  If one Oswald kept quiet and had minimal contact with people at the TSBD then they might be able to pull it off.  It might explain why one Oswald did not greet people who greeted him.  People have a hard time recognizing other peoples facial feature's so they use "sign posts along the way", which is a way of saying different characteristics like different or the same clothing.  The same clothing could validate an Oswald even though some one has problems with facial features.  They would simply dismiss their doubts in favor of the known rather than the unknown.  That is a lot to speculate.  But, through speculation often comes verification or falsification of speculated ideas.  One could call that the scientific method.  The proposal of a hypothesis (speculation) and it's testing to falsification or verification. 

 

Edited February 21, 2019 by John Butler