Freight Elevator Escape?

[Tony Krome]

2 hours ago, John Kozlowski said:

That never made sense to me. Why eat your lunch on one floor then move to another to watch the parade? What's the point on moving down?

Mr. BALL. Did you know there was anyone there before you started down? 
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, I thought I heard somebody walking, the windows moving or something. I said maybe someone is down there, I said to myself. And I just went on down. 

[Guest]

Thanks to Malcolm Blunt

 

[Guest]

On 3/8/2019 at 1:41 AM, David Andrews said:

The legend is that pigeons erupted from the roof when shots were fired.  If you're quiet around pigeons on an urban roof, they'll be momentarily disturbed when you enter, but soon return and settle down.  (My Manhattan experience.)  Fire a gun, and it's probable pandemonium, even if fired two floors down.

As far as I know, no one has tried to replicate the pigeon factor.

I believe that one of Officer Marrion Baker's accounts says that his eye was attracted to the TSBD because of pigeon activity - perhaps returning en masse after the shooting stopped.  Perhaps he was not truthful.

Nobody knows what really happened, pigeon wise - but, once on record somewhere,  the idea was colorful enough to make it into the assassination scene opening JFK.  Doves of peace, and all that.  An urban barometer.

 

 

Pigeons.  Pages 22-25

[John Kozlowski]

3 hours ago, Tony Krome said:

Mr. BALL. Did you know there was anyone there before you started down? 
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, I thought I heard somebody walking, the windows moving or something. I said maybe someone is down there, I said to myself. And I just went on down. 

Thanks

[Ray Mitcham]

1 hour ago, Bart Kamp said:

 

 

Pigeons.  Pages 22-25

Bart, I've always said that pigeons rising from a roof shows only that a loud noise was made, from somewhere close,  not that it was from the place they were perching. Any rifle shot in the vicinity of Dealey Plaza would have the same reaction by the pigeons. They would have just flown off. Baker's comment that he went into the TSBD because of he birds reaction is a lot of hooey. They would have risen no matter where in Dealey the shot emanated.

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, Ray Mitcham said:

Bart, I've always said that pigeons rising from a roof shows only that a loud noise was made, from somewhere close,  not that it was from the place they were perching. Any rifle shot in the vicinity of Dealey Plaza would have the same reaction by the pigeons. They would have just flown off. Baker's comment that he went into the TSBD because of he birds reaction is a lot of hooey. They would have risen no matter where in Dealey the shot emanated.

Precisely my point Raymond.

Happy birthday guvnor!!!

[Gary Murr]

Not to interject, but for those who are interested, I have a 200 page long chapter on Bonnie Ray Williams and friends in Volume 2 of "Controlling The Past".   I will be posting all six chapters of Volume 2, titled "Forsaken - Tales of Straw-men and Reconstruction", within the next two or three days.

Gary

[Ray Mitcham]

1 hour ago, Bart Kamp said:

Precisely my point Raymond.

Happy birthday guvnor!!!

Thanks, Bart.

[Paul Jolliffe]

Precisely how and when did Jack Daugherty - hard at work, getting stock, supposedly - descend from the 5th floor to the first (and then asked either Charles Givens or Eddie Piper about the “loud noise”)?

I have always wondered about Daugherty’s rapid descent - did he actually run down the stairs unseen or heard by anyone?

Or, did he take the 5th floor west freight elevator down as Truly and Baker came up?

Or, was Jack Daugherty actually Marion Baker’s first-day affidavit suspect, encountered on third or fourth floor, walking away from the stairs, and (correctly) vouched for as a TSBD employee by Truly to Baker?

If so, then was this (possible/probable) encounter with Jack Daugherty that later that night morphed into Truly’s Oswald 2nd floor lunchroom story to the FBI?

Or, did Daugherty accompany anyone down on the west freight elevator to the first floor, say from the 5th or . . .6th floor?

My point is that any speculation about using the west freight elevator as an escape route for conspirators ought to consider Jack Daugherty’s mysterious descent at that very time.

[John Kozlowski]

2 hours ago, Gary Murr said:

Not to interject, but for those who are interested, I have a 200 page long chapter on Bonnie Ray Williams and friends in Volume 2 of "Controlling The Past".   I will be posting all six chapters of Volume 2, titled "Forsaken - Tales of Straw-men and Reconstruction", within the next two or three days.

Gary

Thanks for posting this stuff Gary!!! Still haven't gotten through the 1st part yet. Guessing I better get reading.

[David Andrews]

5 hours ago, Ray Mitcham said:

Bart, I've always said that pigeons rising from a roof shows only that a loud noise was made, from somewhere close,  not that it was from the place they were perching. Any rifle shot in the vicinity of Dealey Plaza would have the same reaction by the pigeons. They would have just flown off. Baker's comment that he went into the TSBD because of he birds reaction is a lot of hooey. They would have risen no matter where in Dealey the shot emanated.

Note also that Earle V. Brown claimed that pigeons flew from the river bottom beside the railroad tracks, a bit far from the Houston-Elm Corner (p.24)

Also, where is the Trinity Building in/near Dealey Plaza?  I'm having trouble locating it on the internet:

Mr. BELIN. Where did you see them fly from?
Mr. RACKLEY. From over the top of the building.
Mr. BELIN. Which building? The School Book Depository or over on the other side?
Mr. RACKLEY. The Trinity Building.
Mr. BELIN. Which building did they fly off of?
Mr. RACKLEY. I wasn't looking. I just seen they all flew together.
Mr. BELIN. Did it look like they were flying up from both buildings?
Mr. RACKLEY. Both buildings.  (p. 24)

[Tony Krome]

8 hours ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

Precisely how and when did Jack Daugherty - hard at work, getting stock, supposedly - descend from the 5th floor to the first (and then asked either Charles Givens or Eddie Piper about the “loud noise”)?

I have always wondered about Daugherty’s rapid descent - did he actually run down the stairs unseen or heard by anyone?

Or, did he take the 5th floor west freight elevator down as Truly and Baker came up?

Or, was Jack Daugherty actually Marion Baker’s first-day affidavit suspect, encountered on third or fourth floor, walking away from the stairs, and (correctly) vouched for as a TSBD employee by Truly to Baker?

If so, then was this (possible/probable) encounter with Jack Daugherty that later that night morphed into Truly’s Oswald 2nd floor lunchroom story to the FBI?

Or, did Daugherty accompany anyone down on the west freight elevator to the first floor, say from the 5th or . . .6th floor?

My point is that any speculation about using the west freight elevator as an escape route for conspirators ought to consider Jack Daugherty’s mysterious descent at that very time.

Points to keep in mind;

The WEST elevator moved down between the times that Truly/Baker were on the 1st floor and Truly/Baker were on the 5th floor

Jack Dougherty was the ONLY white guy on record that was on the 5th floor or above in the minutes before and after 12:30pm

Jack Dougherty was 6'2", so cannot be the 4th floor encounter guy UNLESS there's a problem with Baker's hand written affidavit where he writes the description. The issue I have with that description is that it includes the generic "165" pounds used by others that afternoon AND the fact that the description is the LAST part of his affidavit and it scrawls right over where you sign off.

See here;

https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth338819/m1/5/?q=baker affidavit

IF the description was a late hand written inclusion before it was typed up, there is a possibility that it was Dougherty they met on the way up.

IF that's the case, there is this scenario;

After the DELAY in sending the 6th floor boys down (as I've previously described in this thread) they move on down while Truly and Baker are coming up. Lets say Dougherty was up there, not picking stock, but co-ordinating the descent. He sends them down on the WEST elevator and then he alone walks down the stairs to the 4th floor where is called back by Baker. Dougherty is vouched by Truly, then Dougherty moves across to the Passenger elevator and descends to the 1st floor to be met by Inspector Sawyer as he steps out. 

 

[Paul Jolliffe]

Tony,

Thanks for responding. I have long thought that Baker’s first day affidavit was an indication that he didn’t fully believe Truly when he vouched  for the 3rd or 4th floor man. Especially since Baker completed his affidavit in plain view of “Oswald” and actually listened to “Oswald” complain right there in Fritz’s office, yet Baker in his affidavit  never identified “Oswald” as the same man he’d encountered earlier!

If it really was Daugherty they’d encountered, then Truly was telling Baker the truth at that moment (“That man works here”), but that leaves open the reason for Daugherty’s presence there at that moment: was he running down the stairs in a panic because he’d just heard gun shots, or was he somehow coordinating the escape of the sixth floor men?

On the other hand, the simplest explanation for the elevator’s descent at that moment is that Daugherty was riding it down, in which case, then who the hell did Baker and Truly encounter on the 3rd or 4th floor? (And, that would indicate that Baker’s suspect description may very well have been accurate.)

Did Daugherty descend in the west freight elevator with any conspirators? He may have.

On the other hand, if he did not, then I’d say John Armstrong’s passenger elevator theory is very much in play.

[Tony Krome]

If Dougherty came down with the 6th floor boys, that discounts Dougherty as the 4th floor encounter guy

There is no other choice of a white male employee for Truly to vouch for if that's the case

If Dougherty did arrive at the 1st floor with the 6th floor boys, he could have distracted Piper with questions while the others slipped out

If it was Dougherty that emerged on the 4th floor, that would explain why Dorothy Garner was ignored as she was right there at the stairwell

[Ron Bulman]

On 3/7/2019 at 9:28 PM, Ron Bulman said:

I do! I Do!  I never knew, the pigeons only flew when all the leaves had fallen off the live oak trees, here in Texas. Ah, ha hah!  Thank you, I needed a laugh.  As they say these days ROFLMAO!

It's March. Those tiny live oak leaves are sprouting, then last years shrivel and die.  Unusual among the species, more like a conifer.  An important Fact in Oswald's ability to see through the leaves for a clear shot.  Since he was out front with Shelly.