Is this the same person?

[Steve Thomas]

Without getting into the whole Prayerman debate, and whether or not you think this is LHO at all, do you think this is the same person?

The first image is one of the Altgens' pictures (CE 369), and the second is a frame from the Weigman film.

 

I don't see how it could be, unless this person took the time to roll up his sleeves and button up his shirt.

 

Steve Thomas

[Joe Bauer]

Steve, exactly.

[John Kozlowski]

The person on the right looks a bit stockier to me. Might just be the quality of the pic but I definitely think it’s a different person.

[Guest]

The person on the right has his sleeves rolled down Steve.

And the second frame is Darnell not Wiegman

Edited October 21, 2019 by Bart Kamp

[Steve Thomas]

12 hours ago, Bart Kamp said:

The person on the right has his sleeves rolled down Steve.

And the second frame is Darnell not Wiegman

Bart,

 

Thanks. You know a whole lot more about this stuff than I do.

The guy in the right hand picture - his sleeves are not rolled up?

 

Steve Thomas

[David Josephs]

 

Maybe you can help me understand....

In Hughes at top THAT must be Lovelady behind the black man in the blue

At what point does Lovelady move from behind the black man on the steps below him
to the point in the middle of the stairway by the railing at the bottom right... with PM seen in the background with his right hand lit up in the sun.

The sun?  Is anything of PM lit by the sun, deep in that corner?

Thanks
DJ

 

[Michael Clark]

Doorway man always looked, to me, like he was leaning around a wall, not standing at a center staircase railing.

It is so hard to avoid concluding that PM and DwM have to be the same person, regardless of the sleeves and the BL likeness.

[Guest]

7 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

Bart,

 

Thanks. You know a whole lot more about this stuff than I do.

The guy in the right hand picture - his sleeves are not rolled up?

 

Steve Thomas

That is correct Steve

Closer inspection shows the sleeves are rolled down. I will show you a sample tomorrow or Thursday. 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, David Josephs said:

 

Maybe you can help me understand....

In Hughes at top THAT must be Lovelady behind the black man in the blue

At what point does Lovelady move from behind the black man on the steps below him
to the point in the middle of the stairway by the railing at the bottom right... with PM seen in the background with his right hand lit up in the sun.

The sun?  Is anything of PM lit by the sun, deep in that corner?

Thanks
DJ

 

1/ Lovelady is gone in the two Darnell frames you post (3 and 7 o’clock)

2/ he moves more centre between Hughes and A6 and Wiegman

3/ PM is at no time in the sun, the only item illuminated a bit is his right arm as it is in a slightly illuminated area by some of the rays dropping that are in front of him and are lighting up Lovelady

[Steve Thomas]

1 hour ago, Bart Kamp said:

That is correct Steve

Closer inspection shows the sleeves are rolled down. I will show you a sample tomorrow or Thursday. 

9 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

"Bart,

Thanks. You know a whole lot more about this stuff than I do."

1 hour ago, Bart Kamp said:

"That is correct Steve."

hahahaha Sorry, couldn't help myself.

Steve

[Andrej Stancak]

4 hours ago, David Josephs said:

The sun?  Is anything of PM lit by the sun, deep in that corner?

David:

I spent some time on analysis of Darnell and most of my findings can be found in the thread "Prayer Man is a Man" .

There is only one possible location for Prayer Man and that location needs to satisfy several objective criteria such as: 1) The vertical pole of the aluminium door frame needs to cross Prayer Man's head, 2. There is a comparatively short distance between Prayer Man's right elbow the brick column in the western wall (or, from the head standing on the seconds step who some researchers including myself believe was Billy Lovelady), 3. Small parts of Prayer Man's right hand and the fleshy part of his right arm are illuminated by the sunlight meaning that he stood close to the shadow plane cast by the western vertical edge of the doorway.  It is also needed to add Prayer Man's body height as another constrain. If all these aspects of Prayer Man's figure are taken into account, it becomes clear that Prayer Man could only stand in the front of the top landing, actually Prayer Man had his right foot on the seconds step. This also means that Prayer Man's left leg needed to be bent in the knee joint and therefore, his left thigh was also lightly illuminated by the sunlight. Without wishing to be dogmatic or argumentative, there is no other solution which would fit all the above criteria than the one having Prayer Man in the front part of top landing, with his right arm and left thigh partially illuminated by sunlight and with his right foot on the seconds step.) 

Please find here my analysis of evolution of brightness showing from left to light how the right hand and then left knee and right elbow emerged as the first three spots meaning that they were the closest to the sunlight. I am also re-posting a 3D rendering of Prayer Man's brightness map showing  the left leg being progressively more exposed to sunlight from the hip to the knee.

 

x`

In the bottom panel of the above composite picture, the course of the left leg is highlighted with purple line. The knee would be at x=45, arms between x=25 and 20. The peak at x=20 is the right hand. Prayer Man's face is between x=0 and x=4. The very bright blob below x=55 appears to be the radiator in the background.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 22, 2019 by Andrej Stancak

[Chris Bristow]

Here is a photo shop with the vanishing point perspective removed. It simulates a view that is looking straight at the TSBD's front face, as if the camera lens was perpendicular to the front of the building. You still can't see straight into the recess of the doorway but the lines of the front of the building are squared off.

Edited March 6, 2021 by Chris Bristow

[Ray Mitcham]

14 hours ago, Bart Kamp said:

1/ Lovelady is gone in the two Darnell frames you post (3 and 7 o’clock)

2/ he moves more centre between Hughes and A6 and Wiegman

3/ PM is at no time in the sun, the only item illuminated a bit is his right arm as it is in a slightly illuminated area by some of the rays dropping that are in front of him and are lighting up Lovelady

Agreed, Bart. At no time, IMo is Prayerman's arm in sunlight. Lovelady obviously moved eastwards towards the center of the entrance in order to get a better view of the motorcade moving own the ramp. PM's light coloured arm is probably caused by borrowed light.

[Andrej Stancak]

6 hours ago, Ray Mitcham said:

At no time, IMo is Prayerman's arm in sunlight. Lovelady obviously moved eastwards towards the center of the entrance in order to get a better view of the motorcade moving own the ramp. PM's light coloured arm is probably caused by borrowed light.

Ray:

I did some photographic experiments on how could the slightly brighter hand and upper forearm in Prayer Man's figure be explained. First, there is nothing like "borrowed" light as far as Prayer Man is concerned. You may think about some kind of reflection from a very bright plane similar to the one used by professional photographers to cast some distributed light on their objects. However, there is no such plane in the vicinity of Prayer Man. The man seen below him stands on the 6th step, very far from Prayer Man.  Furthermore, although the face of the man standing on the sixth step is clearly reflecting light, the back of his had would not reflect any light as it was hidden from sunlight .

I played with shadows on my arm while having my  hand bent slightly backward and the long axis of my arm paralleling the sunlight. Any bright spots on my arm could only be seen if the arm was hit directly by the sun, not when the arm was just close to the division plane separating sunlight and shadow. If my right arm was in shadow (but close to the sunlight space), it was as dark as my left hand which was even further back in the shadow. To make the narrative short, if the entire Prayer Man's right arm was in shadow, there would not be any bright spots on Prayer Man's right arm/hand. 

The question then is why did not the two spots which in my view were exposed to the sunlight shine bright the same way as for instance the face of the man standing on the lower step. There are few factors causing this:

1. The direction of light was of almost the same angle as the orientation of the long axis of Prayer Man's right arm. Therefore, the angle at which the incident light hit the fleshy part of the forearm close to the elbow was very flat and consequently the reflection angle was also very flat; the reflected light would mostly go in direction of the glass door, not into Darnell's camera. The light that reflected directly into Darnell's camera would come from only a very tiny portion of the forearm. The hand was bent backwards and therefore more of reflected light would be directed towards Darnell's camera. This is what is evidenced in Darnell - the hand reflects more light than the upper forearm.

2. The illuminated spots on the forearm were tiny and got smeared by the  combined smoothing effects of: 1. the distance , 2. the quality of the lens, 3. possible motion blur, 4. unknown processing steps such as the resolution during the digitisation process. Therefore, the brightness of the two bright spots decreased due to them being averaged with surrounding darker spots.

The figure below shows the grey values at different spots including those being safely in the shadow or those being in full sunlight. Prayer Man's face was in the shadow and the value was 81, similar to Mr. Frazier's face, or Prayer Man's left hand (the value not shown in the figure).The face of the man standing on the sixth step was very bright - 232. The back of Prayer Man's hand was certainly brighter than the skin in the shadow (face), its brightness was 112. Thus, this area of Prayer Man was brighter than his face. 

 

The degradation of the brightness due to blurring the image is shown in the next figure. The top left inset shows what I think happened with Prayer Man's right arm. There possibly were two bright spots, one brighter on the back of the hand and one less bright in the flashy part of the upper forearm. The latter is less bright than the former because the long axis of the forearm is orientated in parallel with sunlight and therefore, less of reflected light is directed to the camera. If you look at brightness level of the spot in the upper forearm, it is 157 and it drops down to 115 after blurring the image with Gaussian blur and downsizing in two steps. The brighter spot on the back of the hand drops from 254 (the second top inset in the left column) to 155 in the final degradation step. There are multiple versions of Darnell, and the one shown in the lowest inset in the right column (from Darnell frame #003636 ) shows quite similar values of brightness for the hand (140) and the fleshy part of upper forearm (114) as my arm after blurring the image (156 and 115 for the back of the hand and upper forearm, respectively). It is not realistic that my example would reproduce exact grey values seen in Darnell, however, I hope I could turn your mind toward considering my explanation. 

The right column shows my arm kept close to the space being exposed to the light but still in the shadow. After blurring the image the same way as the one with two bright spots (left column), the right hand gets as dark as my right arm and it is even less bright than the upper forearm. Thus, if Prayer Man's arm was in shadow, we would hardly see his right hand, it would be darker than the rest of his arm or even his left  arm. Thus, Prayer Man had to have his right hand bent as shown in the top left inset.

 

 

 

 

Edited October 23, 2019 by Andrej Stancak

[Ray Mitcham]

Thanks for your detailed explanation, Andrej. Could the right entrance wall have caused reflected light? (Just asking)

Maybe an experiment could be carried out by one of our Dallas members (if we have any) at an appropriate time and date.