Was it really just a MOLE HUNT about "Oswald?"

[Steve Thomas]

15 hours ago, James Norwood said:

 

Steve,

Thanks for your note!  If you have taken the time to compile 40 examples of "Harvey Lee" references, that is an important research contribution. 

If possible, could you post them in list form on this thread or send them to me in a private message?

Many thanks,

James

James, et.al.

Thank you for asking. It forced me to go back and clean up my act a little.

I actually have 44 instances. I'll just provide the citations here. Some of you will find your names mentioned here. I have some of the supporting documents the citations refer to, but as I said, my notes run to more than 40 pages:

Steve Thomas

 

1. Sheriff Decker's file on the assassination, given to the Warren Commission list the assailant's name as "Harvey Lee Oswald"

(12H51) (CE 5323) Deposition of Sheriff Decker dark brown heavy folder with a label on the outside: Harvey Lee Oswald.

2. WC testimony of Earlene Roberts April 8, 1964. She twice said that the Detectives asked if Harvey Lee Oswald lived there.

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/robertse.htm

3. CE 2003 located in (24H259) is the list submitted to Captain Gannaway through Jack Revill of TSBD employees. It is dated November 22, 1963. Heading that list is Harvey Lee Oswald at 605 Elsbeth.

4. WC testimony of FBI Agent, John Lester Quigley, who interviewed Oswald in New Orleans on August 10, 1963.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/quigley.htm

5. Peter Dale Scott

Report in Spanish of November 26, 1963; retyped and transmitted by JKB (George Munro) to Mexico… All the references to Oswald in the Durán interview pages have “Lee Harvey Oswald,” but subsequent pages dealing with her relatives have “Harvey Lee Oswald.”)

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=32291&search=104-10068-10084#relPageId=1&tab=page

6.There have been references on several threads about a cable sent on the evening of 11/22 from Fort Sam Houston to Strike Command, McDill AFB in Florida. In the cable, reference was made, to information obtained by Detective Don Stringfellow of the Dallas Police Department. I managed to locate a copy of the cable, which you can find here:

https://archive.org/details/nsia-ArmyIntelligenceJFK

In the Stringfellow cable referenced above, Harvey Lee Oswald was described as 5'10" tall, 165 lbs, with blue eyes/

7. Oswald is referred to as Harvey Lee Oswald in an FBI report coming out of Mobile, AL on 12/24/63

(23H372) https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1139#relPageId=404&tab=page

8. Oswald is referred to as Harvey Lee Oswald in an FBI report coming out of Sherman Oaks, CA on 11/29/63 (23H207) https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1139#relPageId=239&tab=page

9. MEMORANDUM FOR THE RECORD: SUBJECT - HARVEY LEE OSWALD

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=18291&search=%22Harvey_Lee+Oswald%22#relPageId=2&tab=page

The author of this memorandum is unknown. The subject of the memo is Harvey Lee Oswald. It looks like it dates from 1972.

10. The Soviets rejected the Soviet citizenship application of Harvey Lee Oswald.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=7986&search=%22Harvey_Lee+Oswald%22#relPageId=111&tab=page

11. (16H) 721 CE 270 Secret Service Agent Howard Interview with Marguerite Oswald (CD 87)

12. (16H) 749 CE 270 Secret Service Agent Howard Interview with Robert Lee Oswald (CD 87)

13. Final Report of the Assassinations Records Review Board September 30, 1998

Chapter 6 Part 1: The Quest for Additional Information and Records in Federal Government Offices

p. 83

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=3611&relPageId=106&search=%22Harvey_Lee%20Oswald%22

“The Review Board also sought to determine whether the FBI maintained a file in Mexico City on a “Harvey Lee Oswald” under the file number 105-2137.... Some of the documents in the (Mexico Ciity Legal Attache) Legat's file contain notations for routing records to a file numbered 105-2137, and were captioned “Harvey Lee Oswald”, but it did not find such a file.”

14 .

Peter Dale Scott before the ARRB: October 11, 1994.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=145535&search=105-2137#relPageId=36&tab=page

p. 36.

“I want to suggest to you that the FBI may have been tracking all of this in a file which I am quite sure has never been seen by the Warren Commission, never been seen by the House Committee, and never certainly by me or by the Archives today. I have found a reference to it in a cover sheet which I am going to leave with you. It is Mexico City File 105-2137, which is then struck out and replaced with a different file number with a different name, Lee Harvey Oswald. I hope you will pursue that original file. I predict that it will lead to some third agency which has been protected in here...”

Letter from Petr Dale Scott to John Newman

http://jfkcountercoup2.blogspot.com/2017/10/additional-missing-jfk-assassination.html

Dear John,

“In fact, the cover sheet mentioning this file is available from the Mary Ferrell Foundation website. It is NARA RIF124-10029-10270, FBI serial MX 105-3702-254. It is from “Wesley” [SA Howard D. Wesley], has the title “Information re Allegations re Oswald case,” and (apart from still classified cross-file references) contains only this reference: “105-2137, [corrected manually in ink to “3702”] (Harvy Lee Oswald).” (It makes no reference to “Lee Harvey Oswald.”)^3.

^3. At the time I did not know who Wesley was. But other FBI “Harvey Lee Oswald” records identify him as SA Howard D. Wesley, then at the FBI Mexican branch office in Monterrey.”

15. OSWALD CASE-REFERENCE IS MADE TO THE ATTACHED C

COPY OF AN INCOMING STATE DEPARTMENT TELEGRAM DATED 19 DECEMBER 1963, IN CONNECTION WITH THE HARVEY LEE OSWALD CASE

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=5921&search=%22Harvey_Lee+Oswald%22#relPageId=2&tab=page

16. DRAFT OF MEMO TO WARREN COMMISSION TRANSMITTING INFO PREVIO

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=95799&relPageId=5&search=%22Harvey_Lee%20Oswald%22

page 5

“The CIA Mexico City Station had discovered that the following individuals departing Mexico by air during early November might be identical with Harvey Lee Oswald”

(early November?)

17. Commission Document 498 - SS Rowley Memorandum of 13 Mar 1964 Forwarding Reports

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10898&search=%22Harvey_Lee+Oswald%22#relPageId=37&tab=page

pp. 37-38. The Report is titled, Harvey Lee Oswald.

18. SS Protective Research Report by Kenneth J. Weisman of an interview with Billy Joe Lord, who traveled to Europe with Oswald aboard the SS Marion Lykes. Lord constantly refers to “Harvey Lee Oswald” whom he found to be “unfriendly, standoffish, and that the two of them “didn't hit off”. (p. 38.)

The Report was written by Weisman on February 28, 1964 and approved by a Jose (?)(Benavides?)(sic?) on March 2, 1964.

The name, Harvey Lee Oswald is used seven times in the same document.

19. F.M.Turner from the DPD showed a picture of Harvey Lee Oswald to assassination witness Ronald Fischer.. DPD Archives Box1, Folder# 3, Item# 11

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box1.htm

FBI 62-109060 JFK HQ File, Section 145

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=62431&relPageId=155&search=%22Harvey_Lee

20. Memorandum

From: S.F. Latona

To: Mr. Trotter

Date 11/13/67

“A box containing memoranda, work sheets, reports, copies of incoming letters and negatives of finger and palm prints in connection with captioned case and the case entitled “Harvey Lee Oswald”, aka; IS-R-Cuba, “Bufile# 105-82555”, is being filed in a bulky file bin in the ___ Records Division.”

(105-82555 is the FBI Headquarters File)

21

Commission Document 320 - Secret Service Rowley Memorandum of 24 Jan 1964

Secret Service Memo from James J. Rowley to J. Lee Rankin dated January 24, 1964.

Subject: Harvey Lee Oswald

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10721&relPageId=1&search="Harvey_Lee Oswald"

“There are forwarded herewith copies of additional reports from the Secret Service files bearing the following Secret Service control numbers:

and lists 29 documents.

Document# 650 in that list is a Protective Research Field Report by Special Agent William H. McClarin, Jr. of an interview with a chauffeur named Bernard Thompson who said he encountered Harvey Lee Oswald on September 27, 1963 in front of the Willard Hotel in Washington, D.C. “On December 3, 1963 a photograph of Harvey Lee Oswald was obtained from the Protective Research Section. The following known aliases of Harvey Lee Oswald were also obtained at that time: O.H. Lee, A.J. Hidell, Alek J. Hidell, Alex James Hidell, A. Haidell.”

(The Haidell alias is a new one on me)

22. Letter Letter from G. Robert Blakey, House Select Committee on Assassinations January 5, 1977

LETTER:IN CONNECTION WITH ITS INVESTIGATION/REQUEST FOR FILES ON 37 NAMES

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=3419&search=%22Harvey_Lee+Oswald%22#relPageId=2&tab=page

The person to whom this letter was addresses is whited out.

“...the Select Committee on Assassinations requests that you make available to our staff all files and index references pertaining to individuals listed below:

1. Lee Harvey Oswald: Check also under Lee Henry Oswald, Henry Lee Oswald, Harvey Lee Oswald.

23. Letter from G. Robert Blakey, House Select Committee on Assassinations to Mr. Patrick Carpentier, Office of Legislative Counsel, Central Intelligence Agency, January 6, 1978.

https:/www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=50943&relPageId=2&search=%22Harvey_Lee%20Oswald%22

“...the Select Committee on Assassinations requests that you make available to our staff all files and index references pertaining to individuals listed below:

1) Lee Harvey Oswald: Check also under Lee Henry Oswald, Henry Lee Oswald, Harvey Lee Oswald.

24. Letter from G. Robert Blakey, House Select Committee on Assassinations to Mr. Patrick Carpentier, Office of Legislative Counsel, Central Intelligence Agency, March 9, 1978.

180-10141-10107

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=50929&relPageId=3&search=%22Harvey_Lee%20Oswald%22

25. Log Sheets

NARA Record Number: 1993.08.03.18:55:08:960027

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=105798&relPageId=135&search=%22Harvey_Lee%20Oswald%22

26. Status of Request: Ltr. From Blakey dtd 9 Mar 1978 (Kennedy)

“A list of documents in the possession of CIA concerning Lee Harvey Oswald (Lee Henry Oswald, Harvey Lee Oswald) prior to the opening of a 201 file as well as the office in which each of those documents was located prior to opening of file.” This item in the list is marked “No Record” in the Office of the Inspector General

* (This proves that Harvey Lee Oswald was not just a simple matter of inverting the name).

27. Report to Chief Curry by Sgt. Dean on his assignment to the basement of DPD Headquarters on 11/24

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1140#relPageId=105&tab=page

28. During the trial of Clay Shaw, Mr. Shaw was asked why he referred to Lee Harvey Oswald as Harvey Lee Oswald in a press conference he held the day after his arrest. He was asked, “Is there any particular reason you put the name, Harvey first?”

Mr. Shaw said, “No. purely a mistake.”

Clay Shaw Trial Transcript, 27 Feb 1969 (Testimony of Mr. Shaw)

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1309&search=%22Harvey_Lee+Oswald%22#relPageId=57&tab=page

29. MEMORANDUM:HTLINGUAL/ALIASES USED BY OSWALD

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=30142&search=%22Harvey_Lee+Oswald%22#relPageId=1&tab=page

Letter and attached memo refer to requests by Bella Abzug and Bernard Fensterwald relating to information and possible intercepted mail to or from Lee Harvey Oswald and any of five other aliases.

Harvey Lee Oswald was one of those names.

30. FBI Report of Nat Pinkston and J. Doyle Williams dated 11/23/63 of interview of William Shelley. On November 22, 1963 Harvey Lee Oswald, an employee of the Texas School Book Depository appeared for work as usual.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=95616&relPageId=123&search=%22Harvey_Lee%20Oswald%22

31.

“Oswald, Marine Corps Intelligence and the Assault on the State Department.” by Peter Dale Scott

Fredonia Conference, July, 1996.

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/S%20Disk/Scott%20Peter%20Dale/Item%2002.pdf

As published as Folsom Exhibit No. 1 (19 WH 656-768), this personnel file (Marine Corps) contains only unclassified documents and information. There are no overt references to Marine G-2, and only one passing reference to the existence of confidential intelligence records on Oswald in the Department of the Navy. This reference is in a letter of 29 July 1960, recommending Oswald's discharge from the

Marines. The letter mentions two confidential reports from the Eighth (New Orleans) and Ninth (Chi-

cago) Naval District Intelligence Offices, which it cites as follows:

DIO, 9th ND confidential report serial 02049-E of 8 Jun 60

DIO, 9th ND confidential report serial 02296-E of 27 Jun 60.^6.

Years later, replying affirmatively to a request for these DIO reports from researcher Paul Hoch, the

Naval Investigative Service (successor to ONI) supplied two records. These established a fact not

available from the rest of the personnel file: that Marine G-2 (in regional offices as well as at Marine

HQ) received documentary information from this ONI District Office concerning Oswald.^7.

In addition at least one of these G-2 records listed Oswald by a slightly different name. This

alternative name, which eventually was used by at least four different military intelligence sources,

was "Harvey Lee Oswald."⁸

This "Harvey Lee Oswald" reference is no accidental anomaly, but part of an organized pattern, widely dispersed, that suggests an official intelligence deception (and possible dual filing system). Serial 02296-E of 27 Jun 60 is the earliest Harvey Lee Oswald reference we now possess of over two dozen, from the files of ONI, FBI, CIA, Army Intelligence, the Secret Service, the Mexican Secret Police (DFS), and the Dallas Police.⁹

A consistent pattern of behavior in these agencies since the assassination has been the tendency to suppress references to "Harvey Lee Oswald," and replace them by the more standard "Lee Harvey Oswald."¹⁰

^6. Letter of 20 July 1960 to Commander, Marine Air Reserve Training, 19 Will 703.

^{7 .}In this paper I am deeply indebted to the archival research and analysis of Paul Hoch, as well as to additional research by Larry Haapanen and Mark Allen.

^8. The four sources using "Harvey Lee Oswald" are: DIO, 9th Naval District, DIO, 8th Naval District, ONI (NAVCINTSUPPCEN.3) and Army 112th Military Intelligence Group (see Peter Dale Scott,

Deep Politics Two. 144). In response to the request for serial 02049-E. the NIS supplied a record with a serial that was contiguous but slightly different: "DIO. 9th ND confidential report serial 02048-E of 8 Jun 60." The second document, accurately supplied, carried a title different from the first: "Subj: OSWALD, Harvey Lee." We are left to wonder whether serial 02049-E of 8 Jun 60 concerned Harvey

Lee Oswald as well.

^{9 .} For a discussion and incomplete list, see Peter Dale Scott, Deep Politics Two, 80, 85-89, 118-19, 142-49.

10. Ibid.. especially pp. 118-19.

32. A letter from Anatoly Dobrynin to the U.S. State Department concerning Harvey Lee Oswald's request for Soviet citizenship is dated December 11, 1963.

LETTER FORWARDING DOCUMENTS TO CIA WHICH WERE AGREED UPON AT CONFERENCE HELD MARCH 12TH

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=7986&relPageId=111&search=Dobrynin_December%2011,%201963

In this letter, it says that Harvey Lee Oswald's request for USSR Citizenship was denied. It doesn't say when he applied for that citizenship, but

33. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=7986&relPageId=111&search=Dobrynin_December%2011,%201963

p. 111.

In this letter, it says that Harvey Lee Oswald's request for USSR Citizenship was denied. It doesn't say when he applied for that citizenship, but the character reference memo from the Minsk Radio factory in CE 985, p. 433 https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1135&relPageId=447&search=%22Harvey_Lee%20Oswald%22 is dated December 11, 1961 and refers to “Citizen” Harvey Lee Oswald, who was hired as a regulator at the Minsk Radio Plant on January 13, 1960.

34. https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/2018/104-10418-10332.pdf

CIA cable dated November 27, 1963 replying to Directive# 85133 (traces of Harvey Lee Oswald), It says, “Dissemination applicable to RYBAT GPFLOOR Cables”. Cable says, “No station or liaison traces Oswald. Checked all available sources including landing card and hotel registers without result.”

35. Transcript of ARRB Interview of Donald Monier conducted August 12, 1996 by Dave Montague and Christopher Barger

http://documents.theblackvault.com/documents/jfk/NARA-Oct2017/ARRB/CBARGER/WP-DOCS/MONIER.WPD.pdf

(see p. 6)

Monier:I was with the 112th CIC Group in Dallas-- “I can remember doing some things relative to that, but none of that had to do with Harvey Os-- Lee Harvey Oswald.”

36. From Karl Hilliard in the Education Forum 09/09/2019

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/25696-amazing-psychic-prediction-by-the-man-called-lee-harvey-oswald/page/2/

 

I had run across this document which had made it's way into the archives...

Notice that the letter was addressed to 'Esteemed citizen Harvey Oswald'

That the letter addresses Harvey and not Lee just might be a fluke.

https://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/html/WH_Vol16_0129b.htm

 

Karl wrote, “Notice that the letter was addressed to 'Esteemed citizen Harvey Oswald'.

37. Parent’s Dependency Affidavit from July 31, 1959

From Jim Hargrove in the Education Forum 08/18/19”

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/25958-oswald-to-soviets-my-parents-are-dead-i-have-no-brothers-or-sisters/

“Steve,

There is a U.S. Harvey Lee Oswald reference dating back to 1959. It is on the Dependency Affidavit the Russian-speaking Oswald submitted at MACS-9 in Santa Ana, CA. Near the top of the form is “OSWALD, Lee Harvey,” but at bottom left is “Oswald, Harvey Lee.” It may be just an error, of course, but the two names are clearly typed on two different devices.”

38. Posted by Jim Hargrove in the Education Forum 04/12/19

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/24392-harvey-lee-oswald/page/4/

“Donald P. Norton, the CIA agent who received $150,000 from David Ferrie in
1958 and delivered the cash to Havana, was given another assignment involving Cuba
in the fall of 1962. On this occasion he was given a case full of money and told to travel
to Monterrey, Mexico and meet "Harvey Lee.”

39. Posted by David Boylan in the Education Forum 04/12/19

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/24392-harvey-lee-oswald/page/4/

 

ARRB-CIA ISSUES: OSWALD DEBRIEFING ISSUE (NEWMAN REQUEST)

home/archive/documents/jfk assassination documents/documents released in 2017 and 2018/documents released on november 9, 2017/cia documents released on november 9, 2017/

NARA Record Number:104-10332-10018

 

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=189698&relPageId=8&search=AEOCEAN “...we showed operational interest in the Harvey story.”

40. Posted by Jim Hargrove in the Education Forum 09/12/19

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/25901-two-oswalds-in-the-texas-theater/page/23/#comments

FROM: SAC (New York)
TO: Director FBI

Enclosed for each recipient is one copy of a self-explanatory Army communication dated 12.30.63 captioned Harvey Oswald.

Enclosed Army communication alleges that Oswald was in Cuba in the company of Robert Taber, former head of Fair Play for Cuba Committee (FPCC), approximately three weeks after the April 1961, Bay of Pigs invasion of Cuba.

Jim is probably referencing this document:

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=62297&search=luaces#relPageId=89&tab=page

41. Cox, Dwayne. “Roomers Shed New Light on “Oswald’s Activities”. Lubbuck Avalanche-Journal, July 7, 1977.

https://servimg.com/view/17602890/1349#

https://servimg.com/view/17602890/1347

Posted in the Education Forum by Ed LeDoux 01/18/2020

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/26290-the-beckley-bunch/page/2/#comments

“Adams told the AJ (Avalanche Journal) that Oswald, the man he was introduced to as Harvey Lee:,,,”

42. Naval Criminal Investigative Service Administration

https://ncisahistory.org/history-of-oni-ncis/operational-matters/criminal-investigations/lee-harvey-oswald-files/

page 2

OSWALD, Lee H Reported sighting of Oswald in Cuba in 1961 dtd Nov 30,1963

Tabot introduced his companion as Lieutenant Harvey Oswald

43. From David Joseph in The Education Forum 05/18/2018

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/24392-harvey-lee-oswald/page/3/

Got another for you Steve...

https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/2018/104-10418-10332.pdf

“Requested traces Harvey Lee Oswald”

44. From James Norwood in the Education Forum 07/18/2020

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/26529-was-it-really-just-a-mole-hunt-about-oswald/page/38/#comments

“This is a separate document from the official Marine enlistment certificate published in the Hearings and Exhibits of the Warren Report. Below is a scan of the original document, which I do not believe has been published anywhere prior to this date:”

“You will notice on the line of the entry of the recruit's name that it was first typed as HARVEY LEE, then typed over as LEE HARVEY."

 

 

 

 

Edited July 20, 2020 by Steve Thomas

[Sandy Larsen]

19 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Let's review some of the evidence that, at the very same time one LHO attended Beauregard Junior High School in New Orleans, Louisiana, the other LHO attended Stripling Junior High School in Fort Worth, Texas.

 

Jim, your sentence above prompted me to do some checking for myself.

This is regarding the H&L critics' claim that Robert didn't know what junior high school LHO attended because at the time he was away from home in the Marines. Robert assumed LHO went to Stripling only because he had gone there himself, the critics say

Well I just read that the family was living in Fort Worth in July 1952 when Robert left for the Marines. So it was summer break and LHO wasn't in school yet. But in August Marguerite and LHO moved to New York City and LHO entered 7th grade there. A couple months later Robert took leave and visited them there. So he would have seen very early on that his brother wasn't attending Stripling, but rather a school in NYC. Robert visited NYC again in the summer of 1953. The next time he visited was in the summer of 1955, at which time they were living in New Orleans, not Fort Worth where Stripling Junior High is located

Did I get that right? If so, I don't know how anybody can argue with a straight face that Robert thought his brother attended Stripling. (Maybe that explains why that excuse hasn't been brought up lately by the H&L critics.)

 

[James Norwood]

1 hour ago, Steve Thomas said:

James, et.al.

Thank you for asking. It forced me to go back and clean up my act a little.

I actually have 44 instances. I'll just provide the citations here. Some of you will find your names mentioned here. I have some of the supporting documents the citations refer to, but as I said, my notes run to more than 40 pages:

Steve Thomas

Steve,

This is exceptional work!  You've really invested some time in locating these examples.  An extremely valuable contribution!

Thank you!!!

James

[W. Tracy Parnell]

52 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

I don't know how anybody can argue with a straight face that Robert thought his brother attended Stripling.

Because seven years has passed and he simply got his timeline mixed up.

[Jeremy Bojczuk]

James Norwood writes:

Quote

Thank you for catching a mistake that I made in an earlier post.

No problem. Always happy to help! I wasn't the first person to point out your mistake, though. And it did take quite a bit of pointing out, by several people, before you admitted you'd actually made a mistake, didn't it?

Quote

I have returned to what I wrote, and it was sloppy writing on my part to suggest that Bobby Pitts actually recalled Oswald attending Stripling.

There are a couple of possible reasons for making your original claim, and 'sloppy writing' isn't one of them. It may have been that you weren't sufficiently familiar with the witnesses' statements, and you told us what you hoped they had said rather than what they actually said. Alternatively, it may have been that you knew perfectly well that the six witnesses didn't all claim to have "clearly recalled Oswald attending Stripling," and, like Armstrong neglecting to mention the mastoidectomy defect, you hoped that no-one would notice. But everyone is liable to exaggerate things in the heat of the moment, so let's give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that the first reason applies.

Quote

While he was not a fellow student at Stripling, Pitts' recall is important for two reasons:  (1) he explicitly recalled Oswald living at 2220 Thomas Place and (2) the time frame was during the academic year 1954-55.  Those revelations are corroborated by other eyewitnesses.

Mark Stevens has blown that suggestion apart:

- http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/26639-the-stripling-episode-harvey-lee-a-critical-review/

- https://gregrparker.com/essays/

Quote

you are badly mistaken in suggesting that the evidence is "flimsy."  To the contrary, it is a substantial body of evidence that has been set forth in great detail on this thread.

The evidence may be substantial, in the sense that there is plenty of it, but it is also almost uniformly flimsy. Take away all of the items that have perfectly plausible alternative explanations, and what's left? A handful of anomalies? Anything at all?

As I've pointed out before, the quality of the evidence over-rules the quantity of the evidence. If all you have are decades-old recollections and paranoid interpretations of anomalies in documents and photographs, it really doesn't matter what sort of pattern you weave out of that evidence. You're left with nothing that is strong enough to overcome the default state of affairs: Oswald was one person and not a pair of doppelgangers.

A few pages ago, Sandy, the only 'Harvey and Lee' believer who seems to have even a grain of common sense, asked a question along the lines of "how could there be so much evidence that Oswald was a pair of doppelgangers if Oswald was actually just one person?" The answer should be obvious:
- Eyewitnesses are notoriously unreliable, especially when recalling events decades later.
- Newsworthy events invariably generate false memories of the central characters.
- Researchers, even honest and open-minded ones (I'll let you decide whether Armstrong belongs in that category), can prod people into recalling things that didn't actually happen or, say, into mistakenly identifying nondescript boys as youthful alleged assassins.
- Written documents frequently contain anomalies, and those anomalies can almost always be interpreted in both sinister and innocent ways. Oswald's peripatetic life is exactly the sort of thing that would generate more of these apparent anomalies than most.
- Photographs tend to contain even more anomalies than written documents, especially when interpreted by people with a limited knowledge of the practice of photography.

The question should have been: "how come there is so little evidence?" If Oswald really was a pair of doppelgangers, there ought to be far more evidence than there is. Just in the case of Stripling, only a tiny proportion of potential witnesses claimed to have remembered the Oswald doppelganger, and all of those recollections were vague. There doesn't appear to be a single piece of official documentary evidence for his attendance at Stripling: report cards, student directories and the like. There's nothing!

To return to a question that was asked earlier, why isn't there an official Marines photograph of a 5' 11" Oswald standing in front of a height chart? They took a photograph of him in front of a height chart on entering the Marines, so why not on leaving too? If one of the Oswald doppelgangers really was 5' 11" tall, where's the photograph to prove it?

The standard 'Harvey and Lee' reply to the lack of expected evidence is, of course, that the bad guys faked and destroyed that stuff over there, so they must have faked and destroyed this stuff over here too!

Another question is: "how come there are so many inconsistencies and contradictions?" If you were running a top-secret long-term doppelganger scheme, you'd really want to keep your doppelgangers under control, wouldn't you? As Jonathan Cohen pointed out earlier, why was the fake Marguerite doppelganger allowed to go around giving interviews to newspapers and FBI agents? Why did both of the Oswald doppelgangers get themselves arrested in the Texas Theater and then each tell the cops that his name was Oswald? And why did Robert Oswald, who was supposedly in on the plot, let the cat out of the bag not once but twice by telling a newspaper and the Warren Commission that his doppelganger brother attended Stripling? You'd also want to keep the documentary evidence under control. Why did the bad guys publish the official records of one doppelganger entering the Marines and the other doppelganger leaving the Marines? And so on.

We mustn't forget the big contradiction. According to Armstrong's carefully worked out biographies, the doppelganger who had undergone a mastoidectomy operation was not the one who was buried in Oswald's grave. But the body in the grave had undergone the operation. That fact alone sinks the 'Harvey and Lee' theory. It isn't surprising that Armstrong neglected to tell his readers about it.

You can weave some sort of tapestry out of any number of weak items of evidence, but the fact that the individual elements are weak will cause the structure to quickly disintegrate, as we have seen.

Quote

I simply cannot understand why you feel so threatened by the Harvey and Lee evidence

The 'Harvey and Lee' nonsense isn't a threat to me personally. How could it be? But it is a potential threat to the prospect of ever getting the JFK assassination properly investigated by an official body.

Such an investigation will only come about with the support of a substantial part of the general public. The main way in which the media tries to defuse this threat is to pretend there is no rational argument against the lone-nut theory, and that every critic is a tin-foil hat-wearing 'conspiracy theorist'. They tried this back in the 80s by using Lifton's body-alteration fantasy. Imagine what they could do with an even more tin-foil hattish fantasy such as the 'Harvey and Lee' nonsense.* Given a choice between a lone assassin and a top-secret long-term doppelganger scheme in which (for example) one doppelganger entered the Marines and the other doppelganger left the Marines, it isn't difficult to see how the rational majority of the general public would react, is it? And the case would never get resolved.

That's where the problem lies with the 'Harvey and Lee' nonsense. It isn't much of a threat in that it hasn't an impact with JFK assassination specialists even after more than two decades of promotion. But it still has the opportunity to do harm.

Quote

you come across as an ... angry person

Angry? Moi? You're the one whose response to criticism was to try to get your critics banned, remember?

There are plenty of things in the world that are worth getting angry about. A political assassination that took place over half a century ago isn't one of them, all things considered. But the assassination is a serious historical event, and it's worth opposing preposterous theories about it that aren't even close to being credible and that are liable to impede genuine progress in getting the case resolved.

Quote

we all share the same goal:  the pursuit of the truth.

Well, I'll take your word for that. There's only one way to find the truth in a case like this, which contains a huge amount of evidence that can be interpreted in any number of plausible and implausible ways. It's to adopt a critical attitude to that evidence. That's what anyone who is genuinely concerned with finding out the truth would do.

Take each item of evidence and see if there's a plausible everyday explanation. If there is, use it. When you do that, the 'Harvey and Lee' nonsense doesn't last long. That's why hardly anyone with an informed interest in the assassination takes it seriously.

* Of course, you could argue about whether Lifton's nonsense is more or less nonsensical than the 'Harvey and Lee' nonsense. Magical bullets that are fired from the front and turn around to hit Connally in his back? Or magical mastoidectomy defects that transfer themselves from one doppelganger to another? Difficult choice, isn't it?

[Jim Hargrove]

13 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

James, et.al.

Thank you for asking. It forced me to go back and clean up my act a little.

I actually have 44 instances. I'll just provide the citations here. Some of you will find your names mentioned here. I have some of the supporting documents the citations refer to, but as I said, my notes run to more than 40 pages:

Steve Thomas

 

1. Sheriff Decker's file on the assassination, given to the Warren Commission list the assailant's name as "Harvey Lee Oswald"

(12H51) (CE 5323) Deposition of Sheriff Decker dark brown heavy folder with a label on the outside: Harvey Lee Oswald.

2. WC testimony of Earlene Roberts April 8, 1964. She twice said that the Detectives asked if Harvey Lee Oswald lived there

Megathanks for this Steve.

When reading your comments about this material in the past, I recall thinking that, in a case like this with trainloads of documents, maybe it is possible that a fellow with what sounded like two first names could have them mistakenly switched a few times in references to him.  But reading through all of your examples, it seems hard to deny that something else may well be going on here.

Have you drawn any tentative conclusions about this?

[Jim Hargrove]

15 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Jim, your sentence above prompted me to do some checking for myself.

This is regarding the H&L critics' claim that Robert didn't know what junior high school LHO attended because at the time he was away from home in the Marines. Robert assumed LHO went to Stripling only because he had gone there himself, the critics say

Well I just read that the family was living in Fort Worth in July 1952 when Robert left for the Marines. So it was summer break and LHO wasn't in school yet. But in August Marguerite and LHO moved to New York City and LHO entered 7th grade there. A couple months later Robert took leave and visited them there. So he would have seen very early on that his brother wasn't attending Stripling, but rather a school in NYC. Robert visited NYC again in the summer of 1953. The next time he visited was in the summer of 1955, at which time they were living in New Orleans, not Fort Worth where Stripling Junior High is located

Did I get that right?

Sandy,

My memory isn’t getting any better as I get older, but that sounds right to me.  

As you may recall, John A. has said that he thinks Robert Oswald and Harvey probably compared notes about their Stripling attendance when they lived together for a few weeks in 1956 at 4936 Collinwood , eight years after Robert attended Stripling and two years after Harvey did.  The little apartment on Collinwood was just 10 blocks or so from Stripling.

[Steve Thomas]

23 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Megathanks for this Steve.

When reading your comments about this material in the past, I recall thinking that, in a case like this with trainloads of documents, maybe it is possible that a fellow with what sounded like two first names could have them mistakenly switched a few times in references to him.  But reading through all of your examples, it seems hard to deny that something else may well be going on here.

Have you drawn any tentative conclusions about this?

Jim,

Here's a note I wrote to myself a while back:

I have not fleshed this out, but I have read in the past that there was a CIA file under the name Harvey Lee Oswald, and it ties back to the Mexico City incident and Angleton's mole hunt. This Harvey Lee Oswald file may indeed go back as far as Oswald's fake defection to Russia in 1960. As Dulles was the former Director of the CIA, he would more than likely have been aware of it.

The Harvey Lee Oswald name can't be attributed to a simple inversion, or a mistake, or a typo. It appears in too many places. You have it showing up in CIA files, Secret Service Files, Military Intelligence files, Army and Navy files, FBI files, and local law enforcement files. I believe that a dossier on a Harvey Lee Oswald was circulated or shared across many different intelligence agencies. Now when that dossier was started, and by whom and for what purpose, are open questions. It also seems to revolve around a 5'10", 165 lb man, with brown wavy hair

What's the definition again for a small item that is placed in a file that has restricted access, and the planters then look to see where that name or idea turns up?

I think the leak started out small and then got out of hand.

Please understand. My search for Harvey Lee Oswald is a search for a name, a dossier.

It's not the same as your search for a Harvey and Lee impersonation that you have spent so many years working on.

Chuck Schwartz put it this way in the Education Forum on June 2, 2016 in the thread entitled, “Two Dallas cops were involved in the pre-arranged murder of Tippit...”

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/22875-two-dallas-cops-were-involved-in-the-pre-arranged-murder-of-tippit/?page=2&tab=comments#comment-330156

Quoting from Peter Dale Scott's Deep Politics & the Death of JFK, Chuck posted:

“Federal Bureau of Investigation agents, military intelligence teams from the army, navy, and air force, and other federal agencies with investigators operating from headquarters here…The job of [Revill's] intelligence section in Capt. Gannaway's bureau…requires the closest cooperation with these other governmental agencies gathering intelligence on subversive groups suspected of espionage…With membership in a national police intelligence organization known as LEIU (Law Enforcement Intelligence Units) the local officers are able to get information almost immediately on suspected subversives when they move into Dallas. This information is exchanged by police units as these persons move from city to city…Employees in [industrial] plants are carefully screened by security conscious personnel officers, and in key jobs are given strict government security clearances. Industry is taking great strides to upgrade security practices. One such group in this area is the American Society for Industrial Security.”

“ One can see how easily a false legend for Oswald could have been generated in the shared files of this coordinated security campaign, involving the Dallas SSB, FBI, military intelligence, and the American Society for Industrial Security. Such a centralized file system could be the source for the recurring (and unexplained) inversion of Oswald's name, as Harvey Lee Oswald, in the files of the Dallas police (e.g., 19 WH 438, 24 WH 259), FBI (e.g., 23 WH 207, 23 WH 373), Secret Service (16 WH 721, 748), army intelligence, and navy intelligence.”

I would take it a step further, and posit that it wasn't just a name inversion, but rather was the creation of a whole separate dossier.

Peter Dale Scott told the ARRB in 1994, "“I want to suggest to you that the FBI may have been tracking all of this in a file which I am quite sure has never been seen by the Warren Commission, never been seen by the House Committee, and never certainly by me or by the Archives today. I have found a reference to it in a cover sheet which I am going to leave with you. It is Mexico City File 105-2137, which is then struck out and replaced with a different file number with a different name, Lee Harvey Oswald. I hope you will pursue that original file. I predict that it will lead to some third agency which has been protected in here...”

Steve Thomas

 

Edited July 21, 2020 by Steve Thomas

[Mark Stevens]

On 7/19/2020 at 4:52 PM, Sandy Larsen said:

Jim, your sentence above prompted me to do some checking for myself.

This is regarding the H&L critics' claim that Robert didn't know what junior high school LHO attended because at the time he was away from home in the Marines. Robert assumed LHO went to Stripling only because he had gone there himself, the critics say

Well I just read that the family was living in Fort Worth in July 1952 when Robert left for the Marines. So it was summer break and LHO wasn't in school yet. But in August Marguerite and LHO moved to New York City and LHO entered 7th grade there. A couple months later Robert took leave and visited them there. So he would have seen very early on that his brother wasn't attending Stripling, but rather a school in NYC. Robert visited NYC again in the summer of 1953. The next time he visited was in the summer of 1955, at which time they were living in New Orleans, not Fort Worth where Stripling Junior High is located

You mean to tell me this has been in the public domain since 1964, you have done the supposed research on the JFKA that you state you have, you have pushed the H&L tale for what, 10 years? All of this is true and you just now read the statements Robert Oswald gave to the Warren Commission?!?!?!?!

2020 IS A WILD YEAR Y'ALL.

Quote

Did I get that right? If so, I don't know how anybody can argue with a straight face that Robert thought his brother attended Stripling. (Maybe that explains why that excuse hasn't been brought up lately by the H&L critics.)

Exactly....how, with a straight face, can you argue that Robert thought his brother attended Stripling?

First, it's clear as to the timeline that he knows this isn't true (since, as you mentioned, he had contact with him and he wasn't in Stripling), then factoring in the lack of communication between Robert Oswald and his family, it's even more evident what the facts are.

I'm glad you agree though, it's ridiculously hard to make the argument, much less believe it, that Robert Oswald though his brother attended Stripling.

In

[Mark Stevens]

13 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Megathanks for this Steve.

When reading your comments about this material in the past, I recall thinking that, in a case like this with trainloads of documents, maybe it is possible that a fellow with what sounded like two first names could have them mistakenly switched a few times in references to him.  But reading through all of your examples, it seems hard to deny that something else may well be going on here.

Have you drawn any tentative conclusions about this?

I have, it was clearly the guy below who (as Hemming would say) dood tha deed...

This one is gold, Mauser and Italian rifle in almost the same paragraph. Lee Harvey Oswald and Harvey Oswald, maybe one used the Mauser and one used the Carcano?

I had more, but I guess I reached a limit.

[Steve Thomas]

9 hours ago, Mark Stevens said:

I have, it was clearly the guy below who (as Hemming would say) dood tha deed...

Mark,

These are terrific! I would like to add them to my collection of Harvey Lee Oswald references.

I especially like the one where the suspect was identified by Captain Will Fritz as Harvey Lee Oswald.

Did Fritz get it wrong, or did the reporter?

Could you tell me where The Bulletin is from and whether these clippings are available online anywhere?

Thanks.

Steve Thomas

[Steve Thomas]

On 7/18/2020 at 7:00 PM, Jim Hargrove said:

Let's review some of the evidence that, at the very same time one LHO attended Beauregard Junior High School in New Orleans, Louisiana, the other LHO attended Stripling Junior High School in Fort Worth, Texas.

Jim,

With tongue in cheek, I say forget about Stripling Junior High School.

He skipped Jr. High and went straight to High School when he was 6 years old!

(18H) p. 387

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1135#relPageId=401&tab=page

Steve Thomas

[John Butler]

Jim,

I found this reference to Mrs. J. U. Allen while working on another project.  I haven't seen this and I don't quite know what to make of it.  I been following the thread, but am still weak on schools and years.  I would like to get your thoughts. 

AFFIDAVIT

PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION
ON THE ASSASSINATION OF
PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY
STATE OF MISSISSIPPI,
County of Claiborne, ss:

Mrs. J. U. Allen, Port Gibson, Claiborne County, State of Louisiana, being duly sworn, says:

1. I am secretary of Chamberlain-Hunt Academy, a boys military academy at Port Gibson, Mississippi, and I am in charge and custody of its books and records.

2. I have examined the records and files of Chamberlain-Hunt Academy for the years 1945 through 1948, both inclusive, which are kept in the regular and usual course of business under my supervision. It appears from those records that John Edward Pic and Robert Lee Oswald, half brothers and sons of Marguerite Oswald (and for a portion of the period 1945 through 1948 was Mrs. Edwin A. Ekdahl), entered Chamberlain-Hunt Academy in September 1945, on transfer from Davy Crockett School in Dallas, Texas. They continued as students during the school years 1945-1946, 1946-1947, and 1947-1948. Said records show that John Edward Pic was transferred to Arlington Heights High School, Fort Worth, Texas, in September 1948. The records do not show the school to which Robert Lee Oswald was transferred at the end of the academic year 1947-1948.

John Pic and Robert Oswald were at the Chambelin-Hunt Academy from 1945 to 1948  and then Harvey and Lee would be with the various Marguerites during this period.  But, Harvey doesn't show up until the 1947 school year.  Is this essentially what this says? 

[Mark Stevens]

7 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

Mark,

These are terrific! I would like to add them to my collection of Harvey Lee Oswald references.

I especially like the one where the suspect was identified by Captain Will Fritz as Harvey Lee Oswald.

Did Fritz get it wrong, or did the reporter?

Could you tell me where The Bulletin is from and whether these clippings are available online anywhere?

Thanks.

Steve Thomas

I have a large collection to weed through. If you would like to send me a pm with an email address, I'll try to get them sent to you this weekend. 

I'll get the bulletin info for you this evening. 

[Richard Price]

Not completely, but somewhat off subject.  I haven't studied this area much.  Does anyone know of any other instances of "Lee Henry Oswald" as uttered by DA Wade, I believe, or was that a singular event.