John Dolva

wrist and thigh edit:: plus I used a skeleton to resize all images (some error would come in here, but skeletal proportions tend to be uniform)

Ah, Ok, Lee. I used the face sheets and descriptions as reference but the xrays and this image derived from the xrays to locate the wounds. Then taking into account he wasn't sitting straight (noone does?) and the car was on a slope as well. When lining up this outline with Connally in zf242 and plumbing the frame 25 degrees looks about right to me.

Futile? dunno Jack, one could say it shows fake film, xray, reports etc? Independent investigation to further ones education is never futile. Accepting blindly statements of others presented sans supporting evidence is futile, stupid, dangerous even. But all that aside. A look at the relative position of Connally and Kennedy seems to indicate that what appears to line up in fact may not. Indicating again more than one shot. But even so, I arrived at that layout with surprise. It would seem that the evidence as presented by the wc does support a sbt. Operative word is SEEM. I may have made some stupid mistake here. I'm not by any means presenting it as a final statement.

for closer scrutiny. I used the first image where Kennedy reappeared to estimate him into the zf

goodness me, I hope I'm not turning into a lonely nutter?? Oh well, theres quite an error margin I'm sure. But what I did was : read the wc report on connally's wounds and made the image above. Then Pat said 25 degrees so I put the "face on" figure above at 25 degrees. Then I put that on a correctly oriented zf 224, which I then put on a combined background, which I then put on a distortion corrected photo. When I draw a line from connellys thigh wound through his chest wounds, the line seems to go through kennedy's throat and ends up just below the 6'th floor window .........sorry. I feel really bad. Where did I go wrong???* Anyway, I'm sure there's a rational explanation. Was there any report by Mrs Connally that John was tall and had his knees sticking up? Like I said there are error margins involved here, and it could very well be from dal tex. Also if the evidence is altered all I may have shown is that they might have done a good job at it.

from 'Vegetation, Buildings' topic a view over the ledge on the records building, for those who don't know a bullet casing was reportedly found on the roof here some years after 1963. This angle would match the Connally wounds, ballistically, yes? Shanet Depends upon whether or not Connally sustained the wound - chest entry or back entry. Either way, the trajectory appears flat, IMO - suggesting a shot from ground level. Unless of course it was indeed a chest entry, and the round glance off the rib, and deflected the round on it's flight path. This could explain why the 'entry' wound in the back was determined to have been from a 'tumbling' round. SBT had an unfortunate consequence on the record. There's multiple references to Connally having sustained a shot to the chest. Plus I can draw up a few 'inferences.' It's human nature to assume that the information we receive first is valid - it's very difficult to 'unseat the incumbent.' QUOTE He was wounded once with a chest shot, this we now know ... uh the ... [film is going to undergo extensive...uh...alteration]. - lee A flurry of shots indeed. I like the 'chewbacca' defense in 'south park' : "it does not make sense". Still, an open mind makes the truth possible. John I was talking more about the wrist and leg wounds. If you have time could you go over the Connally wounds and the debate over them. I am hazy on the details........ Shanet It's going to need it's own thread - I am hazy on it myself. - lee OK, Shanet, that goes to show how with all my talk of openmindedness, I was locked into the idea of Connally's wounds being from one bullet. Good point , thank's for that. I haven't yet given Connally's wounds or other than Kennedy's headwounds much thought yet. (i've only been into this a few months, but would be happy to learn more of Connally's wounds). Someone better versed in it than I should kick it off though. John D Big John Connally got shot up pretty bad. He really was "spazzing" in the Zapruder film, as you know, very frantic, he was grimacing, etc. and seemed to be reacting to a number of shots. It really looks to me in Zapruder that Connally is struck repeatedly between the Kennedy throat shot / paralysis and the Kennedy fatal headshot...... The high angle seemed to correllate with leg and wrist wounds for a man in the center jump seat of the GG 300. :::::::::::::: Shanet, My thinking on the Connally issue has been peripheral. I have speculated that his 'squirming around' or as you say 'spazzing' was a frantic attempt to see what was going on. The older you get the stiffer the body, skeleton, gets and turning quickly and smoothly can be difficult for some ie. the earnestness of an agile mind trying to get a less agile body to move in unaccustomed ways could account for some of the grimacing and twisting. Now that you mention it, responses to relatively less traumatic wounds in wrist and thigh and at some point the worse chest shot could also explain it. Here is a visual summary as I understand it for a single shot. It's an estimate of front top side view if the wounds according to face sheet were to line up. There are inconsistencies as I see it largely in lining up wrist and thigh wound. They seemed to spend a lot of time trying to determine excactly where on the thigh the wound was.

Tom, I agree with all of the above. An added dimension that I'm looking at is the degree to which wind conditions need to be taken into account in a shot from perhaps more stable, predictable conditions, into an area of unpredictability. Hence deducing perhaps the degree of skill needed for the shot. Also there is the peripheral issue of the 'smoke', and dispersal of wound matter.

............. I wonder if the assassins are to be found not in any of these groups but rather in a grouping that may have members in these groups. It seems to me that individuals involved in the JBS, KKK, DCC are likely as these groupings allow members from many groups that might otherwise be secular. .............. I forgot to add : the 'enemy' of these 'groupings' at that time were: the catholic the communist the jew the anti-segregationist Kennedy Oswald Ruby Civil Rights

another view

Tom, If several rifles were given the same serial number, isn't it logical to assume that this would have been done all in one batch, using the same machinery, and therefore the number would not vary stylistically but be identically imprinted in that batch of rifles? Furthermore (and irrespective of how you answer the above), if there is a stylistic difference in the number C-2766 seen in two photographs of what is purported to be Oswald's MC (the difference obviously indicating two different rifles), what are the odds that another MC from that same batch of rifles just happened to show up at DPD and get confused with Oswald's? Would it not be far, far more likely that an MC was acquired and the number added to it, long after the MC's manufacture, in order to match (imperfectly) the number on Oswald's? Ron <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Not absolutely necessary, Ron, different manufacturers for different markets. Having said that I have no idea which of the many models was the carcano found. these sites may help someone who understands these things. I guess someone who knew the sn on one might be able to chase down another. Why? b.ggrd if I know. Just a thought http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/encyclope.../ca/carcano.htm http://personal.stevens.edu/~gliberat/carcano/models.html http://personal.stevens.edu/~gliberat/carc...mo/history.html

a moment later

Yes, and! Those who have little or no knowledge or understanding of how covert operations and misdirected concepts are applied continue to sit around and follow David Lifton and the crew of the "Body Kidnappers" ; Clay Shaw and the trials and tribulations of Jim Garrison;, etc; etc; etc. As with other aspects of this subject, that there are/were undoubtedly certain elements creating multitude of "Smoke" in relationship to who were behind this event, does not mean that this diversion is related to the WC activities. Ever think that perhaps this is why no one has placed each of the pieces of this puzzle into it's proper alignment? Glad to know that there are still those who enjoy the chasing of smoke. Tom "As long as you keep them chasing the smoke, they are not likely to find the fire". Old covert ops axiom. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Tom, I would appreciate a comment on angletons 'orchids' from you, please. from an old post of mine: ...reading about the history of the junkie virus got me thinking about Angletons mirrors and his orchid interests. The junkie virus was distributed in a pirated game level that quickly spread around the world before it was decoded. one of the problems was that the virus had been encrypted, then that encryption had been encrypted and then a third time. angleton stopped talking about Nosenko when Oswald became the topic. He then firmly steered the conversation to orchids and kept it there during interviews at a number of locations. ::: Epstein "" Since Angleton's counterintelligence staff had the responsibility for evaluating information supplied by KGB defectors, I assumed that he would be in a position to clarify what Nosenko had been telling me about Oswald and the KGB. I had no idea then that Nosenko had been the subject of a bitter ten-year debate inside the CIA that had destroyed a half-dozen careers, and which helped precipitate the downfall of Angleton himself. Not knowing the mare's-nest of issues surrounding this case, I expected a simple answer when I asked him "Was there any problem with Nosenko's veracity?" Angleton answered, with a thin smile, suggesting a deliberate understatement, "Truth is always complicated when its comes to defectors". He then added that the case was "still sensitive" and he could not discuss it. With that, he abruptly cut off the conversation about Nosenko, and moved on to a subject of which I had no understanding at all: Orchids. Ordering another bottle of vintage wine, he went into elaborate detail about the pollinating conditions for Dendrobian, Phalaenopsis, Cattyleas, Cymbidian and other tribes of orchids, especially their deceptive qualities. He explained it had not been the fittest but the most deceptive orchid that had survived. The perpetuation of most species of orchids depend on their ability to misrepresent themselves to insects. Having no food to offer the insects, they had to deceive them into landing on them and carrying their pollen to another orchid in the tribe. Orchids are too dispersed in nature to depend on the wind to carry their pollen. To accomplish this deception, orchids use color, shape and odor to mimic something that attracts insects to their pods of pollen. Some orchids play on the sexual instincts of insects. The tricocerus orchid, for example, so perfectly mimics in three-dimensional the underside of a female fly, downs to the hairs and smell, that they trigger mating response from passing male flies. Seeing what he thinks is a female fly, the male fly swoops down on the orchid, and attempts to have sex with it-- a process called psuedo-copulation. In doing so, the motion causes the fly to hit the pollen pod, which attaches itself to his underside. The fly thus becomes an unwitting carrier. When the fly then passes another tricocerus orchid, and repeat the frustrating process, it pollinate that orchid. It gradually became clear that he was not only talking about an insect being manipulated through deception but an intelligence service being similarly duped, seduced, provoked, blinded, lured down false trails and used by an enemy. The last waitor was waiting for us to leave. It was almost 1 a.m. Angleton seemed drunk and I was disappointed. I had learned more than I ever wanted to know about botany but nothing about the subject at hand. As he got up to leave, I made a final try to get back to Nosenko. "But can Nosenko be believed about the assassination?" I asked. He was silent for a long moment, obviously disappointed that I had not grasped the meaning of his orchid discourse. "I told you I could not discuss cases," he said. "But you might want to buy orchids for your greenhouse..." "I don't have a greenhouse, but Nosenko..." He cut me off. Why don't you come with me to Kensington Orchids next time I go." The high humidity in Kensington Orchid house so fogged my glasses that I hardly see Angleton. He was examining a long, spiny orchid with a flash light. "See this oncidium orchid," he said, as I approached through the corridor of plants. "It has an almost exact replica of a bee's head on its petals." He meticulously traced the upside-down bee's head for me with his flashlight. "Here's the illusionary foe— the killer bee." Unable to distinguish the simulcrum from the real bee, the wasp is triggered to attack. When it plunges its stinger through the petal, the orchid's pollen pod adheres to it. The wasp then flies away and, if it sees another similar orchid, attacks again. But this time its stinger deposits the pollenate from the first orchid on the second. Angleton explains, " provocation is the means by which this species survives". Such deceptions work in nature, Angleton explains, because the deceived does not have the differentiate the real from the fake. I asked if the CIA possesses that ability. "It had counterintelligence," he said, speaking in the past tense. "So did they know if Nosenko was real or fake." Without answering, he proceeded on to a nearby odontoglossum orchid. He explained it blinded its carrier through deception. Its nectar odor lured moisquitos into its the coils of its fleshy tubes. When the moisquito pushes around a bend it runs into a spike of pollen pod, which jams into its eye. When it then back out of the tube, it is temporarily blinded. So it flies around until it smells a similar nectar and, again, following the trail of odor into a tube, it runs into another spike, which it willy-nilly pollinates with the pollen in its eye. "Did you come to buy orchids?" he asked. "I came to Washingtonton for a second interview with Nosenko, tomorrow?" Angleton drove me back to the Madison hotel in his silver Mercedes. On the way back, he played a cassette of an Israel violenist he said he had had privately recorded, Evidently, Angleton's private world extentend to even his music. After several brandies in the Madison bar, he asked me what I planned to ask Nosenko. "Any suggestions?" I replied. He then dictated, with precision I had never heard before from anyone, thirteen questions. (see Missing Pieces) They contained names and aliases I had never heard before— Rumyanstev, General Rodin, xxxxov, Colonel Semonov and Corevan, for example, as well as KGB units like the 13th Department of the First Chief Directorate (which was rumored to handle assassinations abroad). I wote them down and asked if he could further elaborate. "I can't do that. I would be revealing secrets. All you need to know-- and all I can tell you is that Nosenko never got his bona fides-- not while I was at the CIA." "" :::: There are various interpretations of what Angleton was trying to get across. Obviously he was a highly intelligent, well read person capable of subtle deceit. But assuming perhaps in this instance he is telling perhaps not who pulled the trigger but where, in which greenhouse to look? Maybe just an other encryption? Using the 'triple encryption' as analogy, at the core is the conspiracy proper. For the conspiracy (assassins) to survive undetected it assumes the guise of the illusionary foe, the orchid. The wasp, the fly, and the mosquito are the diverse conspiracy theorists and any legitimate law enforcement attempts to nail the assassin. :: " provocation is the means by which this species (orchid, (assassins)) survives". "Such deceptions work in nature, Angleton explains, because the deceived does not have the (ability to) differentiate the real from the fake". These theorists and and law enforcement agencies are then manipulated to become the third, public layer. The conspiracy theory 'becomes' the conspiracy. Because I think this is how it might have worked, I keep on trying to return to the early days, before the conspiracy got a life of its own. Those first few minutes even, half hour or so when rumours and reports were flying all over the place. So, what use is this speculation? Assuming it's correct, I reason that to decode Angleton's orchid one needs to look past the 'smokescreen' to see the assassins. In other words, the assassins are what the smokescreen isn't. The smoke screen is the CIA, the Mob, the KGB, Oswald, Castro, anti-Castro, the FBI, JBS, KKK, Oil Barons, Johnson, Republicans, Democrats etc etc. These have in common a label, a grouping. Angleton alludes to a shifting, adapting quality when he describes different species of orchid. So also the 'smokescreen' shifts to accommodate various attacks by the fly, mosquito, wasp etc. I wonder if the assassins are to be found not in any of these groups but rather in a grouping that may have members in these groups. It seems to me that individuals involved in the JBS, KKK, DCC are likely as these groupings allow members from many groups that might otherwise be secular. JohnD

Lee, while looking at the Martin film for indications of wind directions (flag) I spotted this that might be of interest to you. It's the best res one I got, but no doubt better exist.

I was talking more about the wrist and leg wounds. If you have time could you go over the Connally wounds and the debate over them. I am hazy on the details........ Shanet OK, Shanet, that goes to show how with all my talk of openmindedness, I was locked into the idea of Connally's wounds being from one bullet. Good point , thank's for that. I haven't yet given Connally's wounds or other than Kennedy's headwounds much thought yet. (i've only been into this a few months, but would be happy to learn more of Connally's wounds). Someone better versed in it than I should kick it off though.

Adam, I'll pass on that for now, but please hold the link in case it becomes possible in the future. Here are the flag movements past the sign. The car is supposedly doing some 8 miles an hour? The ss flag is fluttering strongly while stripes is in a lee* till near the lamp post when it picks up as well. *hmm, definitely no pun intended! The flag is not as big a deal in Oz. Apparently a consideration in Oswalds psychological evaluation was a report on the level of his enthusiasm re. saluting the flag in school. EDIT: there's a frame missing in this sequence, I've been careful in numbering them but may have missed one.

"From John: "Sorry to direct the thread away from its purpose here. It mentions that Clay Shaw was in Mexico City at the same time as Howard Hunt and Oswald. This is the first I have heard of this, does anybody have any information or a source for this?" Guys, Thanks for these and so many other postings. Nearly every time I read something of yours (pl.) I find it informative if not fascinating. In Hougan's book there are two places where he mentions (damn, I wish he would have elaborated) the smuggling of gold bullion to Southeast Asia, the first with respect to Pennington in the middle of the book and the second at the end of the final chapter. The latter segment tells of Haig's initiation of a CIC investigation into that activity - and Nixon's involvement - this time without mentioning Pennington. It's Hougan's contention there that this is what forced Nixon's hand into resignation. Let's take the lad out for drinks and dinner! That '55 book on espionage is a real find. Regards, JAG <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I'm a bit of a novice at posting images, but if all goes well, here's the frontspiece of my copy of Soviet Espionage by David J. Dallin. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Stephen, if that's from a local bookshop, those things often come in 'box lots' put in by someone who doesn't realise what they are (or perhaps does?). As well as checking for other stuff that may have come with that one, it might be interesting to examine the pages for impressions of scribbles?

This angle would match the Connally wounds, ballistically, yes? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Hey Shanet, good to see you back on board! A flurry of shots indeed. I like the 'chewbacca' defense in 'south park' : "it does not make sense". Still, an open mind makes the truth possible.

as a picture person, I say the more the better. and not just stuff of the assassination but also anything that helps to give a sense of the times. As some of the pic pages take long to load when one doesnt have broadband, a description with thumbnail links help. The photo in one of the other topics of protesters outside Ruby's trial with placards arguing against the use of psychiatry as it is 'anti-god' is particularly interesting I think. I doubt that would happen today? Interesting too is the reference to Mclelland as he was the boss at KLIFF (oak cliff) radio around the corner from DP. Perhaps the talk about psychiatry was the reason that Ruby later in the closing stages of the WC wouldn't talk about his meeting with Olssen, Kay and Jimmy, once the questioning started to veer toewards a suggestion that they incited Ruby, hence hinting that he was nuts. (sticking these comments here as when I try to load the whole of the pic page where that photo appeared I time out.)

a bit more on the rings. There is a possibility there are rings on thesame fingers in all photo's. It'd be great to have a good res copy of the backyard photo's if anyone has them. In the depth map below, there is a area oif greater illumination on all three hands in the same place indicating a ring. (3,4 and 5 finger here resized and rotated)

a view over the ledge on the records building, for those who don't know a bullet casing was reportedly found on the roof here some years after 1963.

... it's as if you are looking at a weird mirror image, which... you are. I believe James has a view taken from this location. - lee I don't know if youv'e noticed. I surprised me when I saw it first. While the southern half of Dealey plaza certainly looks like a mirror image of the northern half, it's not quite so. The south pergola is. But the shape of the street differs and the reflective pool is shorter.

Yes - email me your address and I'll burn you a disk. I have over 200 photos I took in Dealey Plaza, during 4 different timeframes [it should fit under 600mb]. I refer to them constantly to give me bearings, despite the many, many changes that have taken place over the past 41 years. Unfortunately I did not spend much time at the south underpass, and I never took the time to take any photos from the south pergola. Here's a scan of the South Pergola. For anyone not knowing Dealey Plaza too well, it's as if you are looking at a weird mirror image, which... you are. I believe James has a view taken from this location. - lee <{POST_SNAPBACK}> BTW, Lee. The lower right image is of the opening of the triple underpass. No doubt one of a series. The full set could be interesting as it probably shows a lot of bare ground. Hence topological detail.

Wouldn't that be too good?? It's on dark areas that such things might register. However, skeptisism helps keep me sane (or at least a feeling of sanity ). However I don't thrash stuff just cause they're strange. I've variously identified 5 individuals crowding the window in the dillard photo, proved that Will Smith is 65 years old and, sorry guys, America doesn't exist!! However ridicule is NOT a reason for me to stop looking at stuff, quite the contrary in fact. It's when I start believing things that I also can prove are not true that I'd worry. Though I suppose If that happened, I'd be blissfully unaware. Anyway, happy hunting, and thanks for the interest.

Hi Lee, yes the more images the better. Email? This collage are various low res images ive picked up along the way. I'd imagine they are likely from a series of aerials, press etc. So the images prob exist, the difficulty is getting them. I'll look out for the areas you mentioned. I've also been looking at the little car park across the railway to the sw. Would have been a quiet discreet area at the time I imagine. In the collage the aerial photo top right is the best res I've come across. So I'm sure a better copy exists?? It may have been cropped too and the original could show the area your'e after. I'll look thru my collection of maps to see re. signs etc. as I have a memory of someone mapping the changes.

the lower row of skulls illustrates the position of the skull in frames 309 to 323, with interpolation between frames 312 and 313. As the US army film running at 1900 frames per second illustrates, one expects a scatter pattern such as that visible to occur if the shot had struck approximately 2/3 into the time between frames 312 and 313.