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Thomas Graves
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Three Tramps - Wise, Bass & Mystery Man
Thomas Graves replied to David Josephs's topic in JFK Assassination Debate
Joseph, I think the Tramps were found in the box car some time after Cancellare took the photo. Does anyone know if this Cancellare "Hunt" character appears in any other photographs or films taken later that afternoon ? I think it's Hunt. It's nteresting that he was so darn attached to that hat with the real wide hat band. Must have worn that sucker for a good thirty years at least...) And by the way, I wonder what the big thing inside his jacket pocket could be? Of course Chauncy Holt is another candidate for the Old Tramp. I'm convinced that Holt and Charles Rogers were photographed "protecting" Oswald as he was handing out Fair Play for Cuba flyers in New Orleans. http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKholt.htm --Tommy -
Three Tramps - Wise, Bass & Mystery Man
Thomas Graves replied to David Josephs's topic in JFK Assassination Debate
That's a crop from a famous Cancellare photo showing people walking across Elm Street towards the Grassy Knoll. In the uncropped original, you can see some people walking up the Grassy Knoll Steps in the foreground. --Tommy -
Permindex and William Torbitt
Thomas Graves replied to Robin Ramsay's topic in JFK Assassination Debate
[...] Tom, If Clark was such a bad guy, why would he "rat out" Henry Crown and the Hilton Hotel Chain like this? --Tommy -
Three Tramps - Wise, Bass & Mystery Man
Thomas Graves replied to David Josephs's topic in JFK Assassination Debate
E. Howard Hunt was notorious for using disguises. I would imagine that that would have required him to make some quick changes from time to time, like an actor between scenes, especially when playing multiple character roles in the same play. Perhaps Hunt made a quick change into Tramp garb inside box car in which he was found, along with the two other "Tramps" and a considerable quantity of explosives, (which may somehow tie in with my theory that LHO was on assignment investigating "gun running" activities going on in the TSBD). Question: Has the Elm Street-Crossing-Hunt ever been identified in any other photos taken later that afternoon? --Tommy -
Three Tramps - Wise, Bass & Mystery Man
Thomas Graves replied to David Josephs's topic in JFK Assassination Debate
Regarding this great photo, it looks as though [based strictly on the positioning of the almost-totally-obscurred Old Tramp (E.Howard Hunt?, Chauncey Holt?) in relation to the Edward Lansdale/Maxwell Taylor "suit"] some sort of exchange or verbal communication is going to take place between The Old Tramp (who was carrying something in a small brown paper bag) and the Landale/Taylor dude. It's interesting to note that the two younger "tramps" are serving as a visual screen for the upcoming hand off or communication. Also interesting is the fact that this hand off or verbal communication is taking place in front of the big double chainlink gates. Maybe a message was communicated to both The Old Tramp and The Suit by someone standing (out of our view) on the inside of those gates... --Tommy -
Stephen, Mac Manual said he knew Arcacha Smith and Emilio Santana well as they had been in the Silver Slipper Lounge several times before while transporting prostitutes between Miami and Dallas. If you're right, Stephen, I guess it means that Rose Cheramie and Emilio Santana were with some other drug-smuggling pimp who strongly resembled Sergio Arcacha Smith. Cheramie said that the three of them were on their way to Texas get her baby, kill Kennedy, pick up $8,000, and buy eight kilograms of heroin from a man in Houston. (For some strange reason, they were going to smuggle the heroin into Mexico!) I've also read recently that later on in Oklahoma, Cheramie claimed that had had plans to sell $2,600 worth of heroin to someone in Oak Cliff. The following excerpt is from pages 312-314 of Douglas Valentine's interesting book The Strength of the Wolf: The Secret History of America's War on Drugs: There are two other FBN-related factors to consider in the official cover-up. On 20 November 1963, Rose Cheramie was found on a Louisiana road, dazed and bruised. She was taken to a private hospital where she told a doctor tha t JFK was going to be killed during his forthcoming visit to Dallas. Later that day, Cheramie was released into the custody of Louisiana State policeman Francis Fruge, and while Fruge was taking her to a state hospital Cheramie said she'd been traveling from Florida to Dallas with two men who "were Italians or resembled Italians."(39) She didn't know their names, but they'd stopped at a lounge for drinks. An argument ensued, Cheramie was evicted and, as she stood outside the lounge, she was struck a glancing blow by a car. She also repeated to Fruge her claim that president kennedy was going to be killed. But because she was a prostitute and drug addict, neither Fruge nor the doctor believed her - at least, not until to afternoon of 22 November. On 27 November, Fruge interviewed Cheramie again, and she expounded on her story, She said the Italians were taking her to Dallas to obtain $8,000, so they could buy eight kilograms of heroin from a seaman. The seaman was to meet them in Houston after disembarking in Galveston. Cheramie gave Fruge the names of the seaman and the ship. As they were on the way to Houston to check out her story, Cheramie told Fruge that she was a stripper at jack Ruby's nightclub in Dallas, and that she had seen Ruby and Oswald together. She said she was part of a Mafia operation in which call girls were rotated between cities, and that Ruby had sent her to Miami on 18 November. When contacted by Fruge, the Customs agent in charge of Galveston verified that the seaman was being investigated for drug smuggling. The Coast Guard likewise confirmed that it was interested in the ship named by Cheramie regarding its role in drug smuggling operations. But the state narcotics bureaus in Texas and Oklahoma found Cheramie's "erroneous in all respects," and when the HSCA asked Customs to produce the agents she had named, and their reports, Customs officials said that neither the agents nor reports could be found.(40) The HSCA let this promising lead drop without attempting to talk to Customs agents like William Hughes, who vividly recalls "Nutty Nate" Durham as the feckless agent in charge of Galveston in 1963. Nate may have been alive in 1978, but the CIA did not allow Customs to identify him or provide his reports to Congress. The reason for this subterfuge comes as no surprise: some of Nutty Nate's colleagues on the Galveston case were CIA officers operating under Customs cover, as part of a special unit organized in Houston by (FBN officer) Dave Ellis. Members of this group facilitated the activities of anti-Castro drug smuggling terrorist groups in the US, which is why the FBI also "decided to pursue the case no further."(41) Neither Customs, nor the Coast Guard, not the FBI, nor any state narcotics bureau revealed the existence of the Galveston drug ring to the FBN (Federal Bureau of narcotics). But Fruge did tell congressional investigators that the Cuban Revolutionary Council's delagate in New Orleans, Sergio Arcacha Smith, may have been one of the men who had accompanied and abused Rose Cheramie. Smith's CRC office was located in the same building as oswald's notional Fair Play for Cuba office at 544 Camp Street in new orleans, and Guy Bannister, a former FBI agent in Chicago, had gotten Smith his office space. Smith and one of Bannister's employees, David Ferrie, 'were also believed to have ties with organized crime figure Carlos Marcello."(42) Here the plot thickens, for Bannister was the FBI agent in charge of Chicago while George White was there as the FBN district supervisor in 1945 and 1949. Bannister moved on to become a deputy chief of police in New Orleans, and then opened a private detective firm that served as a CIA front. A certified right-wing fanatic, Bannister was a member of the Anti-Communist League of the Caribbean (funded in part buy Anistasio Somoza), as well as Lousiana coordinator of the racist Minutemen.(43) Working for Bannister was David Ferrie, a pilot who knew Oswald and worked for Carlos Marcello. Ferrie claimed that he drove to Houston to ice skate on the day Kennedy was killed, and to Galveston to go duck hunting two days later when Ruby killed Oswald. This put him on the same path Rose Cheramie intended to follow - a bizarre coincidence that suggests that he was involved in transporting and paying conspirators, including Arcacha Smith, in the Kennedy assassination. Adding to this possibility is the fact that Ferrie's boss, Guy Bannister, assisted Arcacha Smith in his counter-revolutionary activities, as did Carlos Marcello.(44) Bannister brings us to the other FBN-related piece in the JFK puzzle: the French connection. (note: Valentine next gets into Clay Shaw, Permindex, Centro Mondiale Commerciale, OAS, CIA, $200,000 in a suitcase, Jean Rene Marie Soutre, narcotics, E.H. Hunt, General Walker, etc.) (note: google "george white" fbn mkultra) --Tommy recently expanded
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Was Oswald an MKULTRA Programmed Patsy?
Thomas Graves replied to Thomas Graves's topic in JFK Assassination Debate
OK, Ron. Maybe "They" were just afraid Oswald would somehow come out of the spell the'd cast on him and "spill the beans". Maybe he was already showing signs of coming out of it. Maybe they didn't need to liquidate Sirhan, Bremer, Chapman, or Hinckley because by that time they'd perfected their arcane art(s)... --Tommy -
Was Oswald an MKULTRA Programmed Patsy?
Thomas Graves replied to Thomas Graves's topic in JFK Assassination Debate
Bill, Please re-read the title of this thread: Was Oswald an MKULTRA Programmed Patsy, programmed not to remember?" (emphasis added) Thanks, --Tommy -
Was Oswald an MKULTRA Programmed Patsy?
Thomas Graves replied to Thomas Graves's topic in JFK Assassination Debate
Mark, Sounds like Olson was an unfortunate "human guinea pig". Oswald, on the other hand, may very well have been an MK/ULTRA programmed "Patsy"-- programmed to not be aware of what was going on around him and to do several self-incriminating assassination-related things, but most importantly, programmed to not remember having been programmed in the first place. And why would he have been chosen for this? Because of his psychological profile and because Angleton thought he had gone over to the Russians. Olson was an unfortunate MK/ULTRA scientist who got some of his "own medicine" at least in a karmic kind of way. Oswald wasn't a scientist, he was a ONI-CIA spy in Russia. It's interesting to note that "the group that spied on (it's own) spies", Angleton's Counterintelligence (CI) Special Interest Group (SIG), opened a 201 file on Oswald way back on December 9, 1960, probably because Angleton suspected that Oswald had been "turned" and was now working for Soviet intelligence. Quoting from page 146 of James W. Douglass's JFK and the Unspeakable: "He (Oswald) was to be carefully watched (in Russia). As a security risk, he was also the ideal kind of person for the CIA to offer up three years later as a scapegoat in the assassination of a president who some believed had become a much greater security risk." Therefore, in my extraordinarily humble opinion, Olson and Oswald are as different as the proverbial apples and oranges. --Tommy -
Stephen, Mac Manual said he knew Arcacha Smith and Emilio Santana quite well, as they had been in the Silver Slipper Lounge several times before while transporting prostitutes between Miami and Dallas. If you're right, Stephen, I guess it means that Rose Cheramie and Emilio Santana were with some other drug-smuggling pimp who just happened to resemble Sergio Arcacha Smith. Cheramie said that the three of them were on their way to Texas get her baby, kill Kennedy, pick up $8,000, and buy eight kilograms of heroin from a man in Houston. (For some strange reason, they were going to smuggle the heroin into Mexico!) I've also read recently that later on in Oklahoma, Cheramie claimed that they(?) had had plans to sell $2,600 worth of heroin to someone in Oak Cliff. The following excerpt is from pages 312-314 of Douglas Valentine's interesting book The Strength of the Wolf: The Secret History of America's War on Drugs: "There are two other FBN-related factors to consider in the official cover-up. On 20 November 1963, Rose Cheramie was found on a Louisiana road, dazed and bruised. She was taken to a private hospital where she told a doctor that JFK was going to be killed during his forthcoming visit to Dallas. Later that day, Cheramie was released into the custody of Louisiana State policeman Francis Fruge, and while Fruge was taking her to a state hospital Cheramie said she'd been traveling from Florida to Dallas with two men who "were Italians or resembled Italians."(39) She didn't know their names, but they'd stopped at a lounge for drinks. An argument ensued, Cheramie was evicted and, as she stood outside the lounge, she was struck a glancing blow by a car. She also repeated to Fruge her claim that president Kennedy was going to be killed. But because she was a prostitute and drug addict, neither Fruge nor the doctor believed her - at least, not until to afternoon of 22 November. On 27 November, Fruge interviewed Cheramie again, and she expounded on her story, She said the Italians were taking her to Dallas to obtain $8,000, so they could buy eight kilograms of heroin from a seaman. The seaman was to meet them in Houston after disembarking in Galveston. Cheramie gave Fruge the names of the seaman and the ship. As they were on the way to Houston to check out her story, Cheramie told Fruge that she was a stripper at Jack Ruby's nightclub in Dallas, and that she had seen Ruby and Oswald together. She said she was part of a Mafia operation in which call girls were rotated between cities, and that Ruby had sent her to Miami on 18 November. When contacted by Fruge, the Customs agent in charge of Galveston verified that the seaman was being investigated for drug smuggling. The Coast Guard likewise confirmed that it was interested in the ship named by Cheramie regarding its role in drug smuggling operations. But the state narcotics bureaus in Texas and Oklahoma found Cheramie's story "erroneous in all respects," and when the HSCA asked Customs to produce the agents she had named, and their reports, Customs officials said that neither the agents nor reports could be found.(40) The HSCA let this promising lead drop without attempting to talk to Customs agents like William Hughes, who vividly recalls "Nutty Nate" Durham as the feckless agent in charge of Galveston in 1963. Nate may have been alive in 1978, but the CIA did not allow Customs to identify him or provide his reports to Congress. The reason for this subterfuge comes as no surprise: some of Nutty Nate's colleagues on the Galveston case were CIA officers operating under Customs cover, as part of a special unit organized in Houston by (FBN officer) Dave Ellis. Members of this group facilitated the activities of anti-Castro drug smuggling terrorist groups in the US, which is why the FBI also "decided to pursue the case no further."(41) Neither Customs, nor the Coast Guard, nor the FBI, nor any state narcotics bureau revealed the existence of the Galveston drug ring to the FBN (Federal Bureau of Narcotics). But Fruge did tell congressional investigators that the Cuban Revolutionary Council's delegate in New Orleans, Sergio Arcacha Smith, may have been one of the men who had accompanied and abused Rose Cheramie. Smith's CRC office was located in the same building as Oswald's notional Fair Play for Cuba office at 544 Camp Street in New Orleans, and Guy Bannister, a former FBI agent in Chicago, had gotten Smith his office space. Smith and one of Bannister's employees, David Ferrie, were also believed to have ties with organized crime figure Carlos Marcello."(42) Here the plot thickens, for Bannister was the FBI agent in charge of Chicago while George White was there as the FBN district supervisor in 1945 and 1949. Bannister moved on to become a deputy chief of police in New Orleans, and then opened a private detective firm that served as a CIA front. A certified right-wing fanatic, Bannister was a member of the Anti-Communist League of the Caribbean (funded in part buy Anistasio Somoza), as well as Lousiana coordinator of the racist Minutemen.(43) Working for Bannister was David Ferrie, a pilot who knew Oswald and worked for Carlos Marcello. Ferrie claimed that he drove to Houston to ice skate on the day Kennedy was killed, and to Galveston to go duck hunting two days later when Ruby killed Oswald. This put him on the same path Rose Cheramie intended to follow - a bizarre coincidence that suggests that he was involved in transporting and paying conspirators, including Arcacha Smith, in the Kennedy assassination. Adding to this possibility is the fact that Ferrie's boss, Guy Bannister, assisted Arcacha Smith in his counter-revolutionary activities, as did Carlos Marcello.(44) Bannister brings us to the other FBN-related piece in the JFK puzzle: the French connection." (note: Valentine next gets into Clay Shaw, Permindex, Centro Mondiale Commerciale, OAS, CIA, $200,000 in a suitcase, Jean Rene Marie Soutre, Narcotics, Narcotics, Narcotics, E.H. Hunt, and General Walker, etc.) note: google ' "george white" fbn mkultra ' --Tommy
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In this article, Joan Mellen says Jack Ruby owned the Silver Slipper Lounge in Clinton, Louisiana. http://www.joanmellen.com/oswald.html I know that at one time Ruby owned the Silver Spur Club in Dallas, but can find nothing to indicate that he owned the Silver Slipper Lounge in Eunice (not Clinton), Louisiana. Is Ms. Mellen confusing the two establishments? IMHO, I think she made two mistakes: 1) The Silver Slipper Lounge (of Rose Cheramie fame) is in Eunice, Louisiana, not Clinton. Eunice is 124 driving miles to the west of Clinton. 2) Jack Ruby did not own the Silver Slipper Lounge in Eunice, Louisiana. He owned the Silver Spur Club in Dallas, Texas. According to the HSCA, the Silver Slipper Lounge in Louisiana was owned by Mac Manual. http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh26/pdf/WH26_CE_3067.pdf --Tommy
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Was Oswald an MKULTRA Programmed Patsy?
Thomas Graves replied to Thomas Graves's topic in JFK Assassination Debate
More likely a Programmed Patsy than assassin. We know Oswald was connected to a number of other operations - including the U2, the Defectors Program, Wringer, Paperclip and JMWAVE (via the DRE & FPCC), so it would not be surprising to find him connected to other operations as well, especially one like MKULTRA. Oswald, while in New Orleans in the summer of '63, did read Huxley's Doors of Perception and asked an assist DA on the legality of LSD, and Dr. Jose Rivera (USAR) was most certainly connected to MKULTRA while working on Top Secret project at Fort Detrich, MD, and he is suspected of using drugs and hypnotic suggestion techniques on Adele E, and appears to have had foreknowledge of Oswald's involvement in the Walker shooting. So it seems like Oswald was connected to the MKULTRA project in a way that struck his interest and the interest of the doctors who had access to his records (like Rivera). The story in the London Sunday Times documented the Navy and USMC use of the MMPI test to select recruits for training as killers and assassins, and Oswald just happened to have the personality profile they were looking for, and Oswald is known to have taken the test under Herzog and while in the USMC. Both DeMohrenschildt and Volkmar Schmidt planted the seed in Oswald's mind about the Valkyrie Plot to kill Hitler, how the world history would have been different if it succeeded and suggested the same thing happen to Walker, an idea that Oswald seems to have manifested into his reality, but there is no indication that Oswald was crazy or ever exhibited psychotic or violent intentions. Oswald was not however, the lone wolf assassin that is portrayed in the Day of the Jackal movie,who is thwarted from assassinating DeGaul, nor is he the triggernan in a much wider assassination and coup, who would have more reliable snipers, which means that it is more likely he was the Patsy, as it is probably easier to program someone to do a series of small things and set them up as the fall guy than it is to get them to do the really hard thing - like killing the President. BK For more on London Sunday Times story: Center/Study of Political Assassinations (emphasis added by T. Graves) Excellent post, Bill. Exactly. That's why I titled this thread "Was Oswald an MKULTRA Programmed Patsy-- programmed not to remember?" If he was, it could help to explain some things. Maybe he was MK/ULTRA-programmed to think he was participating in a (mail order???) gunrunning investigation. Sometime in late September or early October, LHO told Gladys Johnson that he was sorry that the room she'd advertised was no longer available because it was on the busline for him to get to "work", but the problems with this as regards the assassination are that 1) Oswald said this a few weeks before the Trade Mart was selected as JFK's Dallas luncheon/speech site (thereby bringing the TSBD into play), and 2) Oswald said this a couple of weeks before he'd been hired at the TSBD. I think Oswald mistakenly believed in late September/early October that he was either already investigating the (real life) gunrunning activities going on at the TSBD or that he'd start doing so in the near future. If he did buy some 6.5 ammo from John Thomas Masen, perhaps he did so believing that it would implicate Masen in some sort of illegal gun-related activity and/or that he'd been told to do so to get some "information" about Masen's gunrunning activities. Perhaps Oswald was thinking about his mythical gunrunning "investigation" when he told Captain Fritz, "That station wagon belongs to Mrs. Paine. Don't try to drag her into this." And last-but-not-least, maybe Oswald did purchase the Mannlicher-Carcano as part of Thomas Dodd's Senate investigation into the mail order gun business, and maybe Oswald did sneak it into the TSBD believing that he was doing so just to make it appear to the (real life) TSBD gunrunners as though he was was a willing participant in their gunrunning plans.. --Tommy edited and bumped -
JFK Special: Oswald was the man in the Doorway, after all!
Thomas Graves replied to a topic in JFK Assassination Debate
Robin, Have A, B, C, D, E, or G ever been positively identified? Did the WC ever present any of this photographic evidence to witnesses and ask them to pick themselves out in the picture? Just as a point of reference, does anyone know the name of "Stetson Hat Man"? Also, does anybody know if "Looking Back Man" was ever questioned as to why he was looking back towards the TSBD entrance? Thanks, --Tommy -
Was Oswald an MKULTRA Programmed Patsy?
Thomas Graves replied to Thomas Graves's topic in JFK Assassination Debate
More likely a Programmed Patsy than assassin. We know Oswald was connected to a number of other operations - including the U2, the Defectors Program, Wringer, Paperclip and JMWAVE (via the DRE & FPCC), so it would not be surprising to find him connected to other operations as well, especially one like MKULTRA. Oswald, while in New Orleans in the summer of '63, did read Huxley's Doors of Perception and asked an assist DA on the legality of LSD, and Dr. Jose Rivera (USAR) was most certainly connected to MKULTRA while working on Top Secret project at Fort Detrich, MD, and he is suspected of using drugs and hypnotic suggestion techniques on Adele E, and appears to have had foreknowledge of Oswald's involvement in the Walker shooting. So it seems like Oswald was connected to the MKULTRA project in a way that struck his interest and the interest of the doctors who had access to his records (like Rivera). The story in the London Sunday Times documented the Navy and USMC use of the MMPI test to select recruits for training as killers and assassins, and Oswald just happened to have the personality profile they were looking for, and Oswald is known to have taken the test under Herzog and while in the USMC. Both DeMohrenschildt and Volkmar Schmidt planted the seed in Oswald's mind about the Valkyrie Plot to kill Hitler, how the world history would have been different if it succeeded and suggested the same thing happen to Walker, an idea that Oswald seems to have manifested into his reality, but there is no indication that Oswald was crazy or ever exhibited psychotic or violent intentions. Oswald was not however, the lone wolf assassin that is portrayed in the Day of the Jackal movie,who is thwarted from assassinating DeGaul, nor is he the triggernan in a much wider assassination and coup, who would have more reliable snipers, which means that it is more likely he was the Patsy, as it is probably easier to program someone to do a series of small things and set them up as the fall guy than it is to get them to do the really hard thing - like killing the President. BK For more on London Sunday Times story: Center/Study of Political Assassinations (emphasis added by T. Graves) Excellent post, Bill. Exactly. That's why I titled this thread "Was Oswald an MKULTRA Programmed Patsy-- programmed to not remember?" If he was, it could help to explain some things. Maybe he was programmed to think he was participating in a (mail order???) gunrunning investigation. Sometime in late September or early October, LHO told Gladys Johnson that he was sorry that the room she'd advertised was no longer available because it was on the busline for him to get to "work", but the problem with this as regards the assassination is that Oswald said this to Mrs. Johnson a few weeks before the Trade Mart was selected as JFK's Dallas luncheon/speech site (thereby bring the TSBD into play) and that he said it a couple of weeks before he'd even been hired at the TSBD! I think Oswald mistakenly believed in late September/early October that he was "investigating" the gunrunning activities going on at the TSBD or thought that he'd be doing so in the near future. If he bought some 6.5 ammo from John Thomas Masen, perhaps he did so thinking that it would implicate Masen in some sort of illegal gun-related activity or thinking he was told to do so in order to get some "information" about Masen's gunrunning activities. By the same token, maybe Ruth Paine's (Chevrolet?) station wagon was being used in some Oswald-involved investigation that was not (directly) connected to the assassination. Perhaps when Oswald told Captain Fritz, "That station wagon belongs to Mrs. Paine. Don't try to drag her into this." he was thinking about the gun running investigation he was working on. Maybe Oswald did sneak the Mannlicher-Carcano into the TSBD to make it appear to the gunrunners he was investigating as though he was was a willing participant in their gunrunning plans.. --Tommy -
I think there's a good chance. --Tommy
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___________________________________________ Dear John, I totally understand. After all, you are a very busy man and you can't be expected to catch everything, can you now. If you were to re-read my Forum-required biography, you could freshen your memory and realize that I never claimed to be a researcher. I did state, however, that I hoped to learn a lot about the assassination, to ask an occasional question, and to perhaps even make some small contribution from time-to-time. Now regarding the last point, above, I'd like to remind you of my insignificant little stab at "serious research" when I figured out which high school Larry Florer most likely attended in the Oak Cliff part of Dallas, and then contacted the director of the alumni association of said high school and got her to look up Larry Florer's picture in the year book, scan it, and e-mail it to me as an attachment. Then I e-mailed it to James Richards and he was kind enough to post it, for technically-challenged-little-old-me. It was especially kind of James to do that, since the photo of this real-life Larry Florer tended to challenge his previously-held belief, (and the fervently-held belief of many other assassination "researchers") that the guy who was arrested under very suspicious circumstances in the Dal-Tex building and had the gall to claim to be Larry Florer, well, .... really was Larry Florer and not, unfortunately, Theodore Shackley, aka the "Blond Ghost", nor the mysterious INTERPEN member, Edmund Kolby! I also seem to remember asking you a research-related question which you, predictably, refused or failed to respond to-- I asked you to ask your mysterious "Undercover Agent" contact (about whom you made us aware on the then-current "Edwin P. Wilson" thread) whether or not he knew anything about an old (since deceased) drinking friend of mine in La Jolla by the name of Lt. Col. Verner R. Carlson (Ret), and his possible former relationship, with Paul Ogg (who worked for David Sanchez Morales in "Operation Phoenix." FWIW, Carlson graduated from the Naval Academy in 1955, transferred to the Army, and seconded to CIA. As a CIA officer, Carlson was Col. John Paul Vann's "right hand man" in Vietnam, and was Chief of Intelligence in (or for?) "IV Corps" during the war. Oh, and I almost forgot... I asked my father to ask his buddy, Gen. Victor "Brute" Krulak (Ret), whether or not he remembered writing a letter to Fletcher Prouty in which he confirmed Prouty's suspicions that the "suit" passing the Three Tramps was indeed Edward Lansdale, and also whether or not Krulak could be persuaded, by viewing photographic "evidence," that the "suit" might have been Ronnie Ecker's favorite villain, Gen. Maxwell Turner, instead. Well, Ronnie, I tried. But all I was able to get out of my rather conservative father was, "I asked 'Brute,' and he said he vaguely remembered writing the letter to Prouty, and all he said was that Prouty was a 'good guy,' and that Lansdale was a 'bad guy.'" Then several weeks later when I asked my father whether or not he had ever gotten around to asking Krulak the second question, he said "Well, Thomas, 'Brute' seemed so irritated about being asked the first question that I just decided not to jeopardize my relationship with him by asking him about this "Is-It-Lansdale-Or-Is-It Turner" question of yours, so sorry, 'Big T," I'm just ain't gonna do it." [...] Sincerely, --Thomas ________________________________________ [...] ________________________________________ P.S. Since I posted this in 2007, I haven't done much "serious research" other than to verify that the former downtown San Diego bar called the "Gold Rail" (which Jack Ruby allegedly visited before the assassination, as referenced in a post assassination anonymously-written letter to RFK) wasn't a gay bar (that would be the Brass Rail in the Hillcrest part of San Diego) after all, but a notorious Mafia bar! See: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:7TS7jKhrU3sJ:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Bompensiero+%22gold+rail%22+%22frank+bomp+bompensiero%22&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us And I was able to determine, by visiting the History Room at the La Jolla Library, that a phone call made by David Ferrie to La Jolla in April, 1962, was to a bank which was later acquired by "The Mafia's Bank", you know, that real big one that was founded in San Francisco a long time ago? And oh yeah, I was able to verify that Andres V. Cortes, whose car was spotted at the Soviet Embassy in Havana on November 23, 1963, really did, according to the La Jolla Blue Book telephone directory, live at 7818 Fay Avenue in La Jolla, California from 1964 through 1966. [The house was listed as being in "Transient" status (i.e. rented by some unnamed person who was not actually living there at the time) in 1963.] Other than that, I ain't done nothing, I reckon. --Tommy 12/29/16 Edit: Oh yeah, and there was that recorded interview I did with retired ONI Special Agent Robert D. Steel a few years ago, wasn't there. (The tape or dub of which Bill Kelley never did return to me, although he promised to do so several times...)
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Suspicious Vehicles and 11/22/63
Thomas Graves replied to Lee Forman's topic in JFK Assassination Debate
Results from old La Jolla Bluebook telephone books: There was an Andres Cortes living at 7818 Fay Avenue, La Jolla, California in 1964-1965 and in 1966. No phone number given in the 1964-1965 book, just his address and name in the "Householder's Directory" in the back. He's not listed in the front "normal" part of the 1966 Bluebook either. It's only in the "Homeowner's Directory" in 1966. It was 454-5874. 7818 Fay Avenue was "transient" in 1963, whatever that means. I noticed that the "Homeowner's Directory" part of the La Jolla Bluebbok used the term "vacant" to describe unoccupied houses... --Tommy FWIW: Spanish for "man outside" is "hombre afuera", and "man inside" = hombre adentro." Edit: "Unas visas" is incorrect Spanish. The word "una / uno" means "one" and never has a plural "s" on the end. Maybe the speaker said "algunas visas" which means "some visas," but I rather doubt it. --Tommy bump -
___________________________________________ Dear John, I totally understand. After all, you are a very busy man and you can't be expected to catch everything, can you now? If you were to re-read my Forum-required biography, you could refreshen your memory and realize that I never claimed to be a researcher. I did state, however, that I hoped to learn a lot about the assassination, to ask an occasional question, and to perhaps even make some small contribution from time-to-time. Now regarding the last point, above, I'd like to remind you of my insignificant little stab at "serious research" when I figured out which high school Larry Florer most likely attended in the Oak Cliff part of Dallas, and then contacted the director of the alumni association of said high school and got her to look up Larry Florer's picture in the year book, scan it, and e-mail it to me as an attachment. Then I e-mailed it to James Richards and he was kind enough to post it, for technically-challenged-little-old-me. It was especially kind of James to do that, since the photo of this real-life Larry Florer tended to challenge his previously-held belief, (and the fervid belief of many other assassination "researchers" that the guy arrested, under very suspicious circumstances, in the Dal-Tex building who had the gall to claim to be Larry Florer really was Larry Florer (and not, unfortunately, one Theodore Shackley, aka the "Blond Ghost", nor the mysterious INTERPEN member, Edmund Kolby)! I also remember asking you a research-related question which you, predictably, refused or failed to respond to-- I asked you to ask your mysterious "Undercover Agent" contact (about whom you made us aware on the "Edwin P. Wilson" thread) whether or not he knew anything about an acquaintance of mine (since deceased) by the name of Lt. Col. Verner R. Carlson (Ret), and his possible former relationship, with Paul Ogg (who worked for Morales in "Operation Phoenix". Carlson graduated from the Naval Academy in 1955, transferred to the Army, and secconded to CIA. As a CIA officer, Carlson and was Col. John Paul Vann's "right hand man" in Vietnam. But I've only just learned that Carlson was Chief of Intelligence in the Mekong Delta, Vietnam, during the war. Oh, and I almost forgot... I asked my father to ask his buddy, Gen. Victor "Brute" Krulak (Ret), whether or not he remembered writing a letter to Prouty in which he confirmed Prouty's suspicions that the "suit" passing the Three Tramps was indeed Edward Lansdale, and also whether or not Krulak could be persuaded, by photograohic evidence, that the "suit" could just as well have been Ronnie Ecker's favorite villain, Gen. Maxwell Turner, instead. Well, I tried, folks. All I was able to get out of my father was, "I asked 'Brute,' and he said he vaguely remembered writing the letter to Prouty, and said that Prouty was a 'good guy,' and that Lansdale was a 'bad guy,'" and then several weeks later when I asked my father whether or not he had ever gotten around to asking Krulak the second question, he said "Well, Thomas, 'Brute' seemed so irritated about being asked the first question that I just decided not to jeopardize my relationship with him by asking him about this "Is-It-Lansdale-Or-Is-It Turner" question of yours. Sorry, 'Big T," I'm just ain't gonna do it." [...] Sincerely, --Thomas ________________________________________ [...] ________________________________________ bump P.S. Since I posted this in 2007, I haven't done much "serious research" other than to verify that the former downtown San Diego bar called the "Gold Rail" (which Jack Ruby allegedly visited before the assassination, as referenced in a post assassination anonymously-written letter to RFK) wasn't a gay bar after all, but a notorious Mafia bar! And I was able to determine, by visiting the History Room at the La Jolla Library, that a phone call made by David Ferrie to La Jolla in April of 1962 was to a bank. Update: The bank was later acquired by "The Mafia's Bank", you know, the one founded in San Francisco a long time ago? And oh yeah, I was able to verify that Andres V. Cortes, whose car was spotted at the Soviet Embassy in Havana on November 23, 1963, really did, according to the La Jolla Blue Book telephone directory, live at 7818 Fay Avenue in La Jolla, California from 1964 through 1966. [The house was listed as being in "Transient" status (i.e. rented by some unnamed person who was not actually living there at the time) in 1963.] Other than that, I ain't done nothing... --Tommy
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Bill Shelley Billy Lovelady Jack Dougherty Danny Arce Charles Givens and by some accounts, Bonnie Ray Williams and/or Hank Norman may have helped out. According to the statements of all the employees, the only account of a stranger or unknown person in the TSBD on the morning of 11/22/63 was an 80 year old man that talked to Danny Arce. anybody recognise the cop?. Sorry, Ian, I have no idea who that policeman is. Gary Mack probably knows. Why don't you ask him? Why? You think he was one of the conspirators? --Tommy
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Dear Mr Simkin, His last name was Robey, not "Roby". http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:YJ__vbmgbXkJ:www.jfk-online.com/jpsjmlfaa1125.html+%22richard+e+robey%22+faa&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us Sincerely, --Tommy
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Thanks for the info, talk about truth being stranger than fiction; I felt that the most intriguing passages in Longton's article dealt with the Foreign Policy Research Institute and the Catherwood Foundation; and the possibility that The Collective by LHO was used a source by Guy Pauken. And "Paisley's yacht "contained highly classified communications gear capable of communicating via satellites linked to the [top secret] CIA ground station at Pine Gap, Australia." Again, thanks. Namebase.org shows connections between Joseph "Joe Hooks" Mirabile (current Detroit Partnership underboss and son of Anthony "Papa Tony" Mirabile who was murdered in San Diego in December of 1958) and only three other people: John Arthur Paisley, Robert W. Gambino (former head of C!A security), and Frank Rucco. I know who Paisley and Gambino were, but can anyone tell me who Frank Rucco is/was? Thanks, --Tommy edited and hit, I mean bumped
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Lets say that he looked like an 80 year old man. He asked Arce where the restroom was, and then went in the building to find it. Must have been in pretty good shape to walk up the front stairs! The "Geezer Bandit" bank robber here in San Diego looks like an old man, but was caught by a surveillance camera running like an Olympic Champ across the parking lot when a dye pack exploded on him. LOL He probably wears a special mask to make him look a lot older than he is. The "old man" who talked with Danny Arce was probably E. Howard Hunt in one of his many disguises. Or Dave Phillips. He had an acting background, you know. --Tommy
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12 August, 1923, D.O.B. matches info in this Dougherty statement to the FBI.: http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/html/WH_Vol19_0318b.htm Is this Sunset High School member of the 1941 sophomore class, our Jack Dougherty? Did he actually enter the school in Sept., 1937 and fall two class years behind, by the spring of 1941? Edit: Jack Dougherty is listed in the 1939 Sunset High School yearbook as a member of the class of 1942, the freshman class. His name does not appear in the 1938 yearbook freshman class. Dougherty appears to be an incompetent, unreliable witness, questioned by an incompetent or disinterested WC staff. Truly explained in his interviews and testimony that Dougherty was essentially retarded, and easily confused. Everything backs this up. I've often wondered, however, if this wasn't by design. If Dougherty were to have been part of the conspiracy, or to have been coerced by a family member or someone he trusted into helping someone shoot Kennedy and escape, no one would have been the wiser, as he was below suspicion. Nice find, Tom. Assuming that Dougherty isn't mentioned in the 1942 yearbook, he dropped out or was asked to leave during the 1940-1941 school year. So he lied or really "spaced out" when he told the Warren Commission that he'd left school in 1937. He was two years older than his sophomore classmates in 1940. Maybe he had been "held back" twice? --Tommy bump
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12 August, 1923, D.O.B. matches info in this Dougherty statement to the FBI.: http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/html/WH_Vol19_0318b.htm Is this Sunset High School member of the 1941 sophomore class, our Jack Dougherty? Did he actually enter the school in Sept., 1937 and fall two class years behind, by the spring of 1941? Edit: Jack Dougherty is listed in the 1939 Sunset High School yearbook as a member of the class of 1942, the freshman class. His name does not appear in the 1938 yearbook freshman class. Dougherty appears to be an incompetent, unreliable witness, questioned by an incompetent or disinterested WC staff. Truly explained in his interviews and testimony that Dougherty was essentially retarded, and easily confused. Everything backs this up. I've often wondered, however, if this wasn't by design. If Dougherty were to have been part of the conspiracy, or to have been coerced by a family member or someone he trusted into helping someone shoot Kennedy and escape, no one would have been the wiser, as he was below suspicion. Nice find, Tom. Assuming that Jack isn't mentioned in the 1942 yearbook, he dropped out or was asked to leave during the 1940-1941 school year. So he lied or really "spaced out" when he told the Warren Commission that he'd left school in 1937. He was two years older than his sophomore classmates in 1940. Maybe he had been "held back" twice? --Tommy