Thomas Graves

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/11/secret-service.html But I assume you have no problem with the Secret Service allowing JFK's car to completely stop on at least one occasion during the Dallas motorcade (and I think it was actually twice, because there's the story of JFK also stopping to greet a group of nuns along the route too, in addition to the incident mentioned below by Secret Service agent Clint Hill): CLINT HILL -- "We did stop." ARLEN SPECTER -- "On what occasion did you stop?" MR. HILL -- "Between Love Field and Main Street, downtown Dallas, on the right-hand side of the street there were a group of people with a long banner which said, "Please, Mr. President, stop and shake our hands." And the President requested the motorcade to stop, and he beckoned to the people and asked them to come and shake his hand, which they did." --------------- And I assume that you have no problem with the SS allowing hundreds of people to hang out of windows along virtually every large-city motorcade that JFK ever rode in -- such as in Dallas, on Main Street, before JFK reached Dealey Plaza (top picture below). David, Unlike the planned route through the death trap known as Dealey Plaza, via the Operation Anthropoid-like hairpin turn from Houston onto Elm, I rather doubt that the two stops you mention were planned ahead of time by the DPD and the Secret Service. More likely than not they were the result of spontaneous decisions by JFK to stop there and mingle a bit with the admiring crowd. I really do wish you would post here more often, David, because shooting down your arguments is so easy and, well, fun! --Tommy P.S. Nice pictures

Kathy, The idea isn't that LHO was the assassin, but that he was MKULTRA-programmed to do certain self-incriminating things which would later make him look as though he was the assassin. --Tommy P.S. Hope you're doing okay.

Interesting article, Douglas. I especially liked the final sentence. Thanks for posting it! --Tommy

No, not really. They are pretty much the same thing here. Because the Trade Mart was selected as the luncheon site; and Kenneth P. O'Donnell was the person who "made the final decision to hold the luncheon at the Trade Mart" (direct quote from Page 31 of the Warren Commission Report). Ergo, Ken O'Donnell did ultimately put his seal of "approval" on the Trade Mart. But, aside from any semantics issues here, if Kenny O'Donnell (or someone else in a very high position in President Kennedy's inner circle) had truly wanted to nix the Trade Mart as the location for the November 22 luncheon, then it would have been nixed. Simple as that. And there would have been nothing that John Connally could have done about it. Yes, it's true that Connally wanted the luncheon to be held at the Trade Mart. But if the Secret Service had told O'Donnell that they just simply could not secure the balconies in that building properly enough to ensure JFK's safety, then O'Donnell would have undoubtedly nixed the Trade Mart as the luncheon site. Don't you agree that that would have happened, Gil? Or were John Connally's desires and wishes the only things that mattered to O'Donnell, and to hell with the President's safety? Gil Jesus, in his first post in this thread, is obviously implying that John B. Connally was part of something sinister when it comes to Connally pushing for the Trade Mart as the Dallas luncheon site. Because if that's NOT what you're implying in your first post, Gil, then what's the point of highlighting things like "Governor" and "the Governor felt very strongly on it". You apparently want to believe that John Connally was a prime conspirator in the murder of JFK. Otherwise, again, what's your point? Your interpretation of the facts, as usual, is not only ridiculous -- it's insane. And to illustrate just how insane Gil's theories can be, I offer up the following prime example: "Let's not forget that all of the previous three successful Presidential assassinations were made from a distance of three feet or less. In addition, the position of Kennedy's head at Z312, together with the description by the witnesses of an entry wound in the right front of the head and an exit wound in the right rear, would indicate a trajectory of a shot coming out of the floorboard of the car. "Let's also not forget that Johnson's man Connally was less than 3 feet from the President when he was murdered and was reportedly known to have carried a gun strapped to his ankle. Think about it." -- Gil Jesus; July 15, 2007 [original post below] http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/dd783b571f900c24 Not wanting to hijack this thread (I know that's highly out of character for me), I just want to say that the Secret Service never should have approved that particular "Operation Anthropod"-like route. Obviously. --Tommy

Joseph, Believe it or not, I got that . And BTW, in some of my earlier posts this thread I conjectured that the Old Tramp was either E. H. Hunt or Cauncey Holt. (And that The Suit was either Edward Lansdale or General Maxwell Taylor) Hey! Maybe there was a Hunt-Holt switcheroo and a Lansdale-Taylor switcheroo as well! You know, just to confuse us? --Tommy

OK, Ron. Maybe "They" were just afraid Oswald would somehow come out of the spell the'd cast on him and "spill the beans". Maybe he was already showing signs of coming out of it. Maybe they didn't need to liquidate Sirhan, Bremer, Chapman, or Hinckley because by that time they'd perfected their arcane art(s)... --Tommy Here's an interesting 1978 CIA document regarding the then-recent "discovery" of ZRALERT documents and the agency's use of hypnosis in "certain operational situations". Down towards the bottom of page two it says something about Mexico City during the summer of 1963. HMMMMMM...... [3 pages] http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=26123&relPageId=1 --Tommy bump

Martin, Here's an interesting quote from The Man Who Knew Too Much by Dick Russell (Chapter Five: Genesis of a Relationship: Nagell and Oswald in Japan, 1957-58), pages79-80: "Speaking in clipped, rapid sentences as we sat alone in the plush Army-Navy Club lounge, Angleton reflected on Desmond FitzGerald: [...] 'Very loyal to his men, extra loyal to the cadre.' "The cadre. Strange, I thought to hear a word I generally associated with the 'other side' of the spy world. But the again, espionage exists beyond conventional thinking. The more I learned about the CIA-KGB spy wars, the more I came to see the two groups as a kind of a brotherhood. Their ideology was intelligence. In this sense they shared a common politics, a common economy, a common language. They had far more kinship with each other than with the countries they represented. Indeed, sometimes I thought of the espionage systems that developed during the Cold War as akin to those giant mutant creatures that filled the movie screens of the 1950s- unintentionally spawned by the new science and devouring everything in sight." --Tommy (emphasis added)

David, Absolutely. Actually I do care. Where do you think the big switch(es) occurred? In the parking lot? As they were walking through the milling people on the street/sidewalk? It's a fascinating idea, actually. Now David, I want you to know that I wasn't trying to hijack your thread. I was just trying to point out something I'd noticed on that particular photograph. Being somewhat technologically challanged (I always seem to have problems in 1) trying to find any given photo I'm looking for on the Internet, and then 2) trying to upload the darn thing to The Forum!), I thought I'd better take advantage of the opportunity, which the great photo you posted on this thread presented, and make a comment about said photo in a timely manner. But then again, I'm probably just just a crass (and sarcastic) opportunist. --Tommy (AKA "Tom")

Tommy, Thanks for reviving this classic thread. When I do as you say I get Larry Hancock's great blog. I believe this was the 2nd entry from 18 December 2011: Richard Case Nagell I believe Nagell referred to Hecksher [Raynock] as "Bob." Zach Zach, Yes, Nagell knew him as "Bob", as in "Berlin Operating Base". Interesting to note that in addition to "Nelson L Raynock", he used the names "James D Zaboth" and "Henry Boysen". --Tommy

deleted --Tommy

As I said earlier, I think there was a hand off between the Old Tramp (Hunt/Holt?) and "The Suit" (Lansdale/Turner?). Either that or a whispered communication between them. --Tommy

OK, Ron. Maybe "They" were just afraid Oswald would somehow come out of the spell the'd cast on him and "spill the beans". Maybe he was already showing signs of coming out of it. Maybe they didn't need to liquidate Sirhan, Bremer, Chapman, or Hinckley because by that time they'd perfected their arcane art(s)... --Tommy Here's an interesting CIA document about the agency's use of hypnosis in "certain operational situations". Down towards the bottom it says something about Mexico City during the summer of 1963... http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?mode=searchResult&absPageId=422760 --Tommy

Zach, Try googling "Richard Case Nagell" and "Henry Hecksher" and Raynock together at the same time. --Tommy

Can't find the San Diego Union or the old San Diego Evening Tribune (which I used to read back in the 1960's).

Robert, Let's not forget Yuri Nosenko, the KGB officer who defected to the US in January 1964 who claimed that: 1) he'd personally been in charge of monitoring Oswald in Russia (how convenient!), 2) the KGB had had absolutely no interest in Oswald (of course not; why would they be interested in a former Marine who had been a U2 radar operator at Atsugi?), and 3) the KGB hadn't even tried to recruit Oswald (Sure, I believe that. And I also believe that the moon is made out of green cheese). I'm starting to think Nosenko might have been a member of a KGB clique which conspired with rogue elements of the CIA in assassinating JFK (and and then covering it up). It is interesting to note that Angleton thought Nosenko was a false defector, whereas Helms and Hoover claimed he was the "real deal". Well, if I'm right in my little theory (the subject of this thread), they would, wouldn't they? John Newman's book Oswald and the CIA convinced me that Angleton was [edit: may have been] a major player in the assassination. So I'm a bit perplexed by the fact that Angleton tried to discredit Nosenko. From http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/SSnosenko.htm : Yuri Nosenko was born in Nikolaev on 30th October 1927. His father, served under Joseph Stalin for nearly 20 years as the Soviet minister of shipbuilding. Nosenko graduated from the Moscow State Institute of International Relations and after three years in naval intelligence he joined the KGB in 1953. Nosenko became deputy chief of the Seventh Department of the KGB. His main responsibility was the recruitment of foreign spies. In 1961 Nosenko was a member of the Soviet delegation to disarmament talks in Geneva. While in the city he was robbed of $200 by a prostitute. In an attempt to repay the money he approached a US official he knew to sell secrets. Nosenko was put into contact with Tennant H. Bagley, a member of the CIA. Nosenko told Bagley about listening devices at the US embassy in Moscow, and confirmed the identities of British Admiralty clerk John Vassall, the Canadian ambassador John Watkins and the CIA agent Edward Ellis Smith, all compromised in KGB "honeytrap" stings, which had revealed by an earlier defector, Anatoli Golitsin. However, some of the information supplied by Nosenko contradicted the testimony of Golitsin. This included Golitsin's claim that a senior figure in the Admiralty was a spy. Tennant H. Bagley reported back to the CIA that he found Nosenko "totally convincing". Nosenko refused to defect because he was unwilling to leave his wife and children behind in the Soviet Union. When Anatoli Golitsin had been interviewed he had claimed the KGB would be so concerned about his defection, they would attempt to convince the CIA that the information he was giving them would be completely unreliable. He predicted that the KGB would send false defectors with information that contradicted what he was saying. The CIA were now uncertain whether to believe Golitsin or Nosenko. In January 1964 Nosenko contacted the CIA and said he had changed his mind and was now willing to defect to the United States. He claimed that he had been recalled to Moscow to be interrogated. Nosenko feared that the KGB had discovered he was a double-agent and once back in the Soviet Union would be executed. Nosenko arrived in the United States on 14th February, 1964. Nosenko claimed that he had important information about the assassination of President John F. Kennedy. He told the CIA that he had been the KGB officially who had personally handled the case of Lee Harvey Oswald. After interviewing Oswald it was decided that he was not intelligent enough to work as a KGB agent. They were also concerned that he was "too mentally unstable" to be of any use to them. Nosenko added that the KGB had never questioned Oswald about information he had acquired while a member of the U.S. Marines. This surprised the CIA as Oswald had worked as a Aviation Electronics Operator at the Atsugi Air Base in Japan. Nosenko defection story was undermined by the US National Security Agency who had been monitoring communications between Moscow and Geneva. It discovered that Nosenko had lied about being recalled to the Soviet Union. He was now taken to a CIA detention cell and after extensive interrogation he admitted the story about him being recalled was untrue. Members of the Warren Commission were pleased to hear this information as it helped to confirm the idea that Oswald had acted alone and was not part of a Soviet conspiracy to kill John F. Kennedy. CIA chief of intelligence, James Jesus Angleton, chief of the CIA's counter-intelligence section, did not believe parts of Nosenko's story. He was able to convince Tennant H. Bagley that Nosenko was a disinformation agent. Anatoli Golitsin supported this view. He had worked in some of the same departments as Nosenko but had never met him. After being interviewed for several days Nosenko admitted that some aspects of his story were not true. For example, Nosenko had previously said he was a lieutenant colonel in the KGB. Nosenko confessed that he had exaggerated his rank to make himself attractive to the CIA. However, initially he had provided KGB documents that said Nosenko was a lieutenant colonel. The story was further complicated by the fact that another Soviet KGB defector under FBI control (code name Fedora) corroborated Nosenko's story. Therefore, if Nosenko was lying, it meant that Fedora was also a disinformation agent sent to the United States to confuse the security agencies. Nosenko was given two lie detector tests by the CIA. Both suggested he was lying about Lee Harvey Oswald. The CIA now decided to put Nosenko under intense physical physical and psychological pressure. This involved him being kept in solitary confinement for 1,277 days. A light was left burning in his unheated cell for twenty-four hours a day and he was given nothing to read and his guards were ordered not to speak to him. However, Nosenko did not crack and insisted that Oswald was not a KGB agent. James Jesus Angleton believed that Anatoli Golitsin was a genuine double-agent but argued that Nosenko was part of a disinformation campaign. However, Richard Helms (CIA) and J. Edgar Hoover (FBI) believed Nosenko and considered Golitsin was a fake. In 1969 Nosenko was released and given a false identity. He became an adviser to the CIA and the FBI on a salary of more than $35,000 a year. He was also given a lump sum of $150,000 as payment for his ordeal. Yuri Nosenko died on 23rd August 2008. _ _ _ _ _ _ _ [...] _ _ _ _ _ _ _ (1) Stansfield Turner, Secrecy and Democracy (1985) Exactly one year after these hearings on drug experimentation, the CIA was back in the press for another error of the past. This time it was the prolonged incarceration of a Soviet defector, Yuri Nosenko, who came to the United States in 1964, a few months after the assassination of President John F. Kennedy. Nosenko came to public attention in 1978, when a special committee was set up in the House of Representatives to study the assassination again. Nosenko had been a KGB officer during the time that Kennedy's assassin, Lee Harvey Oswald, had lived in the Soviet Union, from 1959 to 1962. When Nosenko first arrived in the United States, he was extensively debriefed by the intelligence agencies. He was especially interrogated about any connection between Oswald and the KGB. He contended that the KGB had paid no attention to Oswald. Now, in 1978, this special House committee wanted to review Nosenko's testimony on that issue. This led to an airing of the disgraceful way the CIA had attempted to determine whether Nosenko was telling the truth. It was the job of the counterintelligence branch under James Jesus Angleton (whom Schlesinger had mentioned to me warily) to check on whether a defector was truly defecting or pretending to defect in order to spy on the United States. Angleton concluded that since Oswald had worked on the U2 spy plane when he was in the U.S. Marine Corps, it was unlikely that the KGB would have overlooked him entirely when he was in the Soviet Union. There was, then, cause to be suspicious of Nosenko's story about Oswald. It appeared to Angleton that the Soviets might have sent Nosenko to plant a story that would absolve them of any complicity with Oswald in the Kennedy assassination. Angleton's suspicions were heightened by an earlier Soviet defector, Anatoli Golitsyn, who claimed he knew Nosenko was a double agent. In Nosenko's favor, if he were a genuine defector, was that his knowledge of Soviet intelligence operations would have been more current than Golitsyn's, making him more valuable to us than Golitsyn. (2) Edward Jay Epstein, Who Killed the CIA? The Confessions of Stansfield Turner (October, 1985) Although Turner had had little previous experience in intelligence, he viewed it simply as a problem of assessing data, or, as he described it to his son, nothing more than "bean' counting." Accepting the position of "chief bean counter," he assumed that he could bring the CIA, and American intelligence, to the same standard of operational efficiency he had brought the ships under his command. The four-year effort to achieve this goal is the subject of his book, Secrecy and Democracy: The CIA in Transition.' He quickly found, however, that the CIA was a far more complex and elusive entity than he had expected. To begin with, the acting CIA Director, Henry Knoche, rather than behaving like a ship's "executive officer," surprised Turner by refusing his "captain's" first order: a request that Knoche accompany him to meetings with congressional leaders. As far as Turner was concerned, this was insubordination (and Knoche's days were numbered). When he met with other senior executives of the CIA at a series of dinners, he found "a disturbing lack of specificity and clarity" in their answers. On the other hand, he found the written CIA reports presented to him "too long and detailed to be useful." He notes that "my first encounters with the CIA did not convey either the feeling of a warm welcome or a sense of great competence."- This assessment that led to the retirement of many of these senior officers. Turner was further frustrated by the system of Secrecy that kept vital intelligence hermetically contained in bureaucratic "compartments" within the CIA. Not only did he view such secrecy as irrational, he began to suspect that it cloaked a wide range of unethical activities. He became especially concerned with abuses in the espionage division, which he discovered was heavily overstaffed with case officers-some of whom, on the pretext of seeing agents abroad, were disbursing large sums in "expenses" to themselves, keeping mistresses, and doing business with international arms dealers. Aside from such petty corruption, Turner feared that these compartmentalized espionage operations could enmesh the entire CIA in a devastating scandal. The potential for such a "disgrace," as he puts it, was made manifest to him by a single traumatic case that occurred in the 1960's, one which he harks back to throughout his book, and which he uses to justify eliminating the essential core of the CIA's espionage service. The villain of this case, as Turner describes it, is James Jesus Angleton, who was chief of the CIA's counterintelligence staff from 1954 to 1974; the victim was Yuri Nosenko, a KGB officer who began collaborating, with the CIA in 1962 and then defected to the United States in 1964, and who claimed to have read all the KGB files on Lee Harvey Oswald. The crime was the imprisonment of Nosenko, -which, according to Turner, was "a travesty of the rights of the individual under the law." It all began in 1964, after Nosenko arrived in the United States. Turner states that Angleton "decided that Nosenko was a double agent, and set out to force him to confess. . . . When he would not give in to normal interrogation, Angleton's team set out to break the man psychologically. A small prison was built, expressly for him." (3) Jim Marrs, Crossfire: The Plot that Killed Kennedy (1990) In a remarkable attempt to resolve the issue, Nosenko underwent "hostile interrogation." He was kept in solitary confinement for 1,277 days under intense physical and psychological pressure. He was put on a diet of weak tea, macaroni, and porridge, given nothing to read, a light was left burning in his unheated cell twenty-four hours a day, and his guards were forbidden to speak with him or even smile. His Isolation was so complete that Nosenko eventually began to hallucinate, according to CIA testimony before the House Select Committee on Assassinations. Toward the end of this ordeal, Nosenko was given at least two lie detector tests by the CIA. He failed both. But Nosenko did not crack. The believers of Nosenko, headed by the CIA's Richard Helms and J. Edgar Hoover, took his intransigence to mean that he was telling the truth but the KGB having no interest in Oswald. But doubts remained. So at the CIA's request, the Warren Commission obligingly made no reference to Nosenko. Angleton retired from the CIA and later wrote: "The ... exoneration or official decision that Nosenko is/was bona fide is a travesty. It is an indictment of the CIA and, if the FBI subscribes to it, of that bureau too. The ramifications for the U.S. intelligence community, and specifically the CIA, are tragic." The counterintelligence faction, led by Angleton, still believes that Nosenko's defection was contrived by the KGB for two purposes: to allay suspicions that the Soviets had anything to do with the JFK assassination to cover for Soviet "moles," or agents deep within US intelligence. (4) Arkady Shevchenko, Breaking With Moscow (1985) In November 1963, President Kennedy was assassinated in Dallas. Everyone in the (Soviet) mission was stunned and confused, particularly when there were rumors that the murder had been Soviet-inspired... Our leaders would not have been so upset by the assassination if they had planned it and the KGB would not have taken upon itself to venture such a move without Politburo approval. More important, Khrushchev's view of Kennedy had changed. After Cuba, Moscow perceived Kennedy as the one who had accelerated improvement of relations between the two countries. Kennedy was seen as a man of strength and determination, the one thing that Kremlin truly understands and respects. In addition, Moscow firmly believed that Kennedy's assassination was a scheme by "reactionary forces" within the United States seeking to damage the new trend in relations. The Kremlin ridiculed the Warren Commission's conclusion that Oswald had acted on his own as the sole assassin. There was in fact widespread speculation among Soviet diplomats that Lyndon Johnson, along with the CIA and the Mafia, had masterminded the plot. Perhaps one of the most potent reasons why the U.S.S.R. wished Kennedy well was that Johnson was anathema to Khrushchev. Because he was a southerner, Moscow considered him a racist (the stereotype of any American politician from below the Mason Dixon line), an anti-Soviet and anti-Communist to the core. Further, since Johnson was from Texas, a center of the most reactionary forces in the United States, according to the Soviets, he was associated with the big-time capitalism of the oil industry, also known to be anti-Soviet. (5) James Scott Linville, review of Tennant H. Bagley's Spy Wars (24th July, 2008) An old-school espionage story from the early Cold War, “Pete” Bagley was the counter-intelligence officer who handled the noted case of the defector Yuri Nosenko. The question of whether Nosenko was a bona fide defector, or had been dispatched as part of a deception plot, tore the CIA apart for the better part of a decade. Some forty years later Bagley finally makes public his report, and it diverges considerably from the comfortable version of events the agency has long presented. In The Spectator, Oleg Gordievsky described the author, one-time head of Soviet Block Counter-Intelligence for the CIA, as "one of the most respected and knowledgeable experts on Soviet espionage." The book, he said, was "perhaps the most amazing non-fiction spy book that has ever appeared during or after the Cold War." After my second reading I turned to a series of "twenty unavoidable questions" posed by Bagley. Bagley's questions are indeed unavoidable. What's more, his account was persuasive that the Russian defector could not have been who he said he was; that Nosenko could not have, as he’d claimed, reviewed the file of Lee Harvey Oswald; and that Nosenko's stories of how the KGB discovered the identities of two CIA moles in Moscow could not have been true. David Ignatius in the Washington Post wrote, "It's impossible to read this book without developing doubts about Nosenko's bona fides. Spy Wars should reopen the Nosenko case." I don't know what it would mean to "open" a case forty years old, but certainly a new generation of analysts and historians should examine the case. The account of the long history of deception operations, stretching back to Peter the Great, is alone worth the price of the book. So, why did the Soviet's concoct such a deception? In the book Bagley argues that the KGB's real game was to steer the CIA away from realizing that the Russians had recruited an American code clerk in Moscow in 1949, and perhaps two others later on. [If you'll read the book, you'll realize that one of those "two others" was the first CIA agent stationed at the American Embassy in Moscow, Edward Ellis Smith, and the fact that his job, before he was caught-up in a KGB "honeytrap" operation and recalled to Washington and fired, was to prepare dead drops for GRU Lt. Col. Pytor Popov! -- Tommy ] (6) The Daily Telegraph (28th August, 2008) The controversy over Nosenko's bona fides was to continue for years, and had the effect of splitting the American counter-intelligence community. The central issue was the concept of the "dispatched defector": the idea that a professional intelligence agency would risk sending a well-informed staff officer directly and deliberately into the hands of an adversary. On the one hand, the Counterintelligence Staff, led by James Angleton, found it impossible to reconcile the many inconsistencies in the defector's story; they pointed out that Nosenko's family was part of Moscow's elite and that he was therefore an improbable traitor. Furthermore, Nosenko's claim that he had had access to Oswald's file, a claim made just as the Warren Commission was investigating the background of the assassination, seemed a little too convenient – especially as Nosenko's essential message was that the KGB had been innocent of any plot. The case against Nosenko was made in Spy Wars: Moles, Mysteries and Deadly Games (2007), a book by Pete Bagley, a CIA officer stationed in Switzerland in the early 1960s who initially handled Nosenko's case. The opposing view suggested that Nosenko was a hard-drinking womaniser who had found himself in financial difficulty in Geneva and, in turning to the CIA for help, had exaggerated his own status. (7) Michael Carlson, Yuri Nosenko (1st September, 2008) The argument about whether Nosenko was bona fide or a KGB plant would, according to David Wise's Molehunt (1992), "split the agency into two camps, creating scars that had yet to heal decades later". Indeed, just last year, in his book Spy Wars, Tennent "Pete" Bagley, Nosenko's original CIA handler, continued to argue that Nosenko was a KGB "provocateur and dissembler", which caused the CIA director Michael Hayden to visit Nosenko just a month before his death, bringing a ceremonial flag and official letter of thanks.... The arguments for Nosenko's being a plant are thin. He could not undo Golitsin, and if the KGB worried that Oswald was a clumsy attempt to frame them for Kennedy's assassination, it could be countered through back-channels. Yet Nosenko's crippling of American intelligence could not have been more effective had the KGB orchestrated it. The increasingly paranoid Angleton would suspect the likes of Pierre Trudeau, Olaf Palme and Willi Brandt of being Soviet agents. When he started suspecting his own superiors at the CIA, he was forced into retirement. KGB assets within the agency, such as Aldrich Ames and Robert Hanson, would be exposed not by counterintelligence, but by their own over-confidence. And Nosenko would die, under an assumed name after "a long illness". _ _ _ _ _ _ _ --Tommy

The answer is yes, it is possible the CIA and the Russian GRU could have conspired to kill John Kennedy. But the probability of that is about 100 million to one against the theory. Why would the GRU kill a dove in the White House just to get a hawk that might be more likely to put the USA in Vietnam, possibly invade Cuba and engage them elsewhere in the world? Especially when the USA was the far superior nuclear power at that time. Back then at the height of Cold War tensions, when the world almost blew up during the Cuban Missile Crisis ... why would the Russians want to aggravate that and risk complete annihilation and NO dacha and NO summer home? ... because the cities incinerated would be Moscow and possibly Wash DC. Why are you wasting Education Forum space with this? Why not ask if all the Chinese farted at the same time, would the Earth be knocked off its rotation and would that affect the climate? This theory seems similar to Hugh McDonald's "Appointment in Dallas: The Final Solution to the Assassination of JFK." I think he had the Russians and Lyndon Johnson in on the plot together. http://www.amazon.com/Appointment-Dallas-Final-Solution-Assassination/product-reviews/0821738933/ref=cm_cr_dp_all_helpful?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1&sortBy=bySubmissionDateDescending I think a much more likely possiblity is the LBJ-CIA Assassination of JFK: http://lyndonjohnsonmurderedjfk.blogspot.com/2011/12/lbj-cia-assassination-of-jfk-updated.html Hold up a second Robert... Are you trying to tell us that you cannot see how HAWKS in the KGB as well as the ruling economic elite in Russia (yes Virginia, there really are wealthy people in communist nations) would not want to perpetuate the Cold War and avoid peace at all costs...? Yet you have no problem with the HAWKS of the USA, in the Military and CIA, to perpetuate the Cold War? I think you are missing the role of the emerging global corporations, financed by the international banks and the benefit derived by the constant state of Cold (and Hot) War. Billions upon billions of "officially spent money" was lost in Russia when the Cold War finally ended... Where the US government & companies just shifted focus from the WAR on Communism to the WAR on Terrorism and continued to spend accordingly, the Russian economy was corrupted by organized crime taking on all shapes and persona. Richard Case Nagell was not even sure which side was ordering him to kill Oswald... I believe if you step back and see the overriding focus was on MONEY and POWER... and that the groups that desired control of such things continue regardless of ideology, theology, political party or any other such nonsense... AND add that the CIA as well as a number of other agencies were choked full of "communists" who thought it crucial NEVER to give in to the USA.. It is not such a stretch to see cooperation among thieves to keep their livlihoods AND organizations intact. To dovetail back to your thesis - LBJ - he cooperated cause of all the money involved, and his freedom. "None Dare Call It a Conspiracy" helps in this question to see that the CIA and KGB were in the same business... perpetuate the organization, protect the organization, expand the organization so that a state of fear persists and people will be more and more willing to give up personal freedoms and liberty to FEEL protected... JFK's future dictated that these two agencies would no longer be needed - or at least be seriously curtailed... and they both knew it. And this is why men like Dub'ya Bush do not get executed... He's one of THEM (emphasis added by T. Graves) David, Exactly, Komarad. The fact that Nagell was working for both the CIA and the KGB (or the GRU) is what gave me the idea. That and the fact that Kennedy was pushing hard for nuclear disarmament and had recently signed a limited test ban treaty with the Soviet Union. Personally, I've been thinking of having some bumper stickers printed up that say "Thermonuclear War Is The Answer!" Just kidding. --Tommy

The answer is yes, it is possible the CIA and the Russian GRU could have conspired to kill John Kennedy. But the probability of that is about 100 million to one against the theory. Why would the GRU kill a dove in the White House just to get a hawk that might be more likely to put the USA in Vietnam, possibly invade Cuba and engage them elsewhere in the world? Especially when the USA was the far superior nuclear power at that time. Back then at the height of Cold War tensions, when the world almost blew up during the Cuban Missile Crisis ... why would the Russians want to aggravate that and risk complete annihilation and NO dacha and NO summer home? ... because the cities incinerated would be Moscow and possibly Wash DC. Why are you wasting Education Forum space with this? Why not ask if all the Chinese farted at the same time, would the Earth be knocked off its rotation and would that affect the climate? This theory seems similar to Hugh McDonald's "Appointment in Dallas: The Final Solution to the Assassination of JFK." I think he had the Russians and Lyndon Johnson in on the plot together. http://www.amazon.com/Appointment-Dallas-Final-Solution-Assassination/product-reviews/0821738933/ref=cm_cr_dp_all_helpful?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1&sortBy=bySubmissionDateDescending I think a much more likely possiblity is the LBJ-CIA Assassination of JFK: http://lyndonjohnsonmurderedjfk.blogspot.com/2011/12/lbj-cia-assassination-of-jfk-updated.html Hold up a second Robert... Are you trying to tell us that you cannot see how HAWKS in the KGB as well as the ruling economic elite in Russia (yes Virginia, there really are wealthy people in communist nations) would not want to perpetuate the Cold War and avoid peace at all costs...? Yet you have no problem with the HAWKS of the USA, in the Military and CIA, to perpetuate the Cold War? I think you are missing the role of the emerging global corporations, financed by the international banks and the benefit derived by the constant state of Cold (and Hot) War. Billions upon billions of "officially spent money" was lost in Russia when the Cold War finally ended... Where the US government & companies just shifted focus from the WAR on Communism to the WAR on Terrorism and continued to spend accordingly, the Russian economy was corrupted by organized crime taking on all shapes and persona. Richard Case Nagell was not even sure which side was ordering him to kill Oswald... I believe if you step back and see the overriding focus was on MONEY and POWER... and that the groups that desired control of such things continue regardless of ideology, theology, political party or any other such nonsense... AND add that the CIA as well as a number of other agencies were choked full of "communists" who thought it crucial NEVER to give in to the USA.. It is not such a stretch to see cooperation among thieves to keep their livlihoods AND organizations intact. To dovetail back to your thesis - LBJ - he cooperated cause of all the money involved, and his freedom. "None Dare Call It a Conspiracy" helps in this question to see that the CIA and KGB were in the same business... perpetuate the organization, protect the organization, expand the organization so that a state of fear persists and people will be more and more willing to give up personal freedoms and liberty to FEEL protected... JFK's future dictated that these two agencies would no longer be needed - or at least be seriously curtailed... and they both knew it. And this is why men like Dub'ya Bush do not get executed... He's one of THEM (emphasis added by T. Graves) David, Exactly, Komarad. The fact that Nagell was working for both the CIA and the KGB (or the GRU) is what gave me the idea. That and the fact that Kennedy was pushing hard for nuclear disarmament and had recently signed a limited test ban treaty with the Soviet Union. --Tommy

– Deep Politics and the Death of JFK by PDS p. 276 The Plot and the Coverup ....two minutes earlier by Jack Alston Crichton, a right-wing Republican, oil operator, member of Army Intelligence Reserve (9 WH 106), and head of "a local Army Intelligence Unit" (WCD 386, SS 1058). Crichton knew Mamantov personally as a fellow petroleum geologist. He also knew him because Mamantov was a precinct chairman o the Republican party, for which Crichton became the 1964 candidate for governor of Texas. It is not known how many Dallas policemen were also (as is apparently a widespread practice) members of the U.S. Army Reserve. One such reservist was Detective Adamik (7 WH 203), a member of the party which retrieved the rifle-blanket from the Paine garage and later reported what he overheard at Mamantov's interview of Marina about the rifle ("She said that it looked like her husband's rifle. She said that it was dark"; 24 WH291). Another member of Army Intelligence Reserve was Captain W. P. Gannaway, Revill's supervisor as head of the Dallas Police Special Service Bureau (WCD 1426.26; 19 WH 120); Gannaway's secretary was reported by an out-of-town police chief to be "closely connected" to Jack Ruby (WCD 86.151). This story was plausible, given the close connection between Ruby and the SSB, including men who participated in the search of the TSBD and the arrest of Oswald. Since the protection of visiting dignitaries was one of the SSB's responsibilities (5 WH48), Gannaway was involved in the meetings arranged by Secret Service advance man Winston Lawson for the Kennedy visit (5 WH39; 7 WH 580). According to a news story in FBI files, in 1963 both Captain Gannaway and his subordinate Lieutenant Revill were assigned a special responsibility for "espionage and subversive activities" in Dallas. This was in conjunction with Federal Bureau of Investigation agents, military intelligence teams from the army, navy, and air force, and other federal agencies with investigators operating from headquarters here. The job of [Revill's] intelligence section in Capt. Gannaway's bureau requires the closest cooperation with these other governmental agencies gathering intelligence on subversive groups suspected of espionage. With membership in a national police intelligence organization known as LEIU (Law Enforcement Intelligence Units) the local officers are able to get information almost immediately on suspected subversives when they move into Dallas. This information is exchanged by police units as these persons move from city to city. Employes in [industrial] plants are carefully screened by security-conscious personnel officers, and in key jobs are given strict government security clearances. Industry is taking great strides to upgrade security practices. One such group in this area is the American Society for Industrial Security. 10 The possibility that Oswald was an informant for this centralized security team would explain his visit to the Dallas American Civil Liberties Union, a liberal group being investigated by Revill's intelligence section, in the company of an extreme right-winger (Michael Paine). 11. One can see how easily a false legend for Oswald could have been generated in the shared files of this coordinated security campaign, involving the Dallas SSB, FBI, military intelligence, and the American Society for Industrial Security. Such a centralized file system could be the source for the recurring (and unexplained) inversion of Oswald's name, as Harvey Lee Oswald, in the files of the Dallas police (e.g., 19 WH 438, 24 WH 259), FBI (e.g., 23 WH 207, 23 WH 373), Secret Service (16 WH 721, 748), army intelligence, and navy intelligence. 12. The most intriguing "Harvey Lee Oswald" document is Jack Revill's list of employees at the Texas School Book Depository, compiled right after the assassination, before Oswald had been apprehended for the Tippit murder. For some unexplained reason, Oswald's inverted name ("Harvey Lee Oswald") was at the very head of that list, accompanied by an address, "605 Elsbeth," that slightly misrepresented the address (602 Elsbeth) where he had resided a year earlier (24 WH 259). 13 The Elsbeth address does suggest that Oswald's data had been parked for some time before the assassination in an intelligence file, not hitherto identified. One possibility would be the files of the LEIU, the Law Enforcement Intelligence Unit, the intercity police-intelligence organization of which Revill as the lead local representative. LEIU's files, unlike ordinary police files, cannot be given to any civilian authorities and are treated as exempt from the Freedom of Information Act. As we shall see, it was also a frequent practice for the LEIU member intelligence units to collaborate with army intelligence. 14. Another army reserve officer in Dealey plaza may have been Winston Lawson, the White House Secret Service agent responsible for the choice of the Kennedy motorcade route (4 WH 318). Lawson's first three reports of what happened on and before November 22 raise considerable questions about his performance. ..... http://leiu-homepage.org/about/historyPurpose.php History, Purpose, and Operations click here for the PDF version HISTORY In the mid 1950's, local and state law enforcement agencies in the United States recognized that no single agency or organization was responsible for receiving, collating, maintaining, and disseminating information on persons involved in organized crime. These law enforcement agencies surmised correctly that organized crime would exploit advancing technologies in transportation and communications, become more mobile, and increase their spheres of influence and criminal activities. As a result, twenty-six (26) law enforcement agencies met in San Francisco, California on March 29, 1956 to discuss problems and possible solutions. The most important result of that meeting was the creation of LEIU (The LAW ENFORCEMENT INTELLIGENCE UNIT) and the development of an organizational purpose that survives to this day. PURPOSE The purpose of LEIU is to gather, record, and exchange confidential information not available through regular police channels, concerning organized crime and terrorism. OPERATIONS LEIU is an association of state and local police departments, similar in many respects to numerous other professional associations serving doctors, attorneys, journalists, and educators. LEIU has no employees and no capability as an entity to conduct any investigation or law enforcement activity of any kind. Each member agency is bound by, and acts pursuant to local law and their own agency regulations. The Law Enforcement Intelligence Unit is divided geographically into four (4) Zones, they are: Eastern, Central, Northwestern, and Southwestern. Each Zone elects a Chair and Vice Chair to serve as Zone Officers. Internationally, LEIU elects a General Chair, Vice General Chair, and designates a Secretary-Treasurer and a legal advisor who serve as International Officers. The International Officers, Zone Officers, past General Chair and two representatives from the Central Coordinating Agency make up the Executive Board. The Executive Board is the governing body of LEIU, and as such establishes policy and passes upon the admission of all members. The Executive Board is governed by a Constitution and Bylaws. LEIU membership is limited to law enforcement agencies of general jurisdiction having an intelligence function. To become a member, an agency head makes written application. The applying agencies must be sponsored by an LEIU member. Each member agency head appoints an LEIU representative to be the contact for the Law Enforcement Intelligence Unit. All LEIU member agencies are notified of an application for membership and have an opportunity to comment on the application. A background screening is conducted of the applying agency and the individual nominated to represent that agency. The application is voted on by the Executive Board. Termination of a member agency is provided for in the Constitution and Bylaws. Modern transportation allows an organized crime subject, gang member, or terrorist to travel from coast- to- coast in a matter of hours. Membership in LEIU provides a means of coping with the multi-jurisdictional investigation of organized crime/gang/terrorism information. To submit a suspected criminal subject to the LEIU automated system, a member agency enters the subject information through a secure intranet, which is stored on the Regional Information Sharing System (RISS) communications highway. The subject information includes, among other items, the subject's identity, criminal activity, and criminal associates. All information submitted to the LEIU Automated File must meet LEIU File Guidelines and comply with 28 Code of Federal Regulations, part 23 (28CFR, part 23). The submitting agency must certify the subject meets established criteria, including criminal predicate. The Central Coordinating Agency (CCA) manages this automated file. CCA is housed within the California Department of Justice in Sacramento, California. The membership of LEIU is comprised of law enforcement agencies in the United States, Canada, Australia, and South Africa. Due to the rapport established at the annual training seminars and through multi-agency investigations, representatives of member agencies have established a highly professional relationship of trust and respect. This facilitates the exchange of confidential criminal information between agencies. Although the LEIU Constitution and Bylaws restrict the dissemination of information to non-member law enforcement agencies, it is the policy of the LEIU that every member shall assist any law enforcement agency making a valid request concerning organized crime/gangs/terrorism. This exchange of criminal intelligence information is completed only after establishing a "right to know" and a "need to know". This policy provides for the security of the information and protects the privacy of individuals. In addition to gathering, recording, and exchanging confidential criminal information, the Central Coordinating Agency maintains an automated gaming index. The gaming index is a compilation of public information provided by member agencies that acts as a pointer system to assist in determining whether background information on individuals and companies applying for gaming licenses exist and whether the licenses for which the applicants have applied have been granted or denied. The existence of organized criminal enterprises (traditional organized crime, gangs, or terrorists) in a free society requires alert law enforcement to proactively gather and analyze data. The traditional reactive approach to crime control is not effective when dealing with the scope and nature of organized criminal enterprises. The ability to retain data and review material is necessary to prevent crime or determine if criminal prosecution can be obtained. While accomplishing this, law enforcement agencies must abide by the rules and legal decisions that relate to the issues of security and privacy. LEIU members are guided in this area by the LEIU Constitution and Bylaws, the Representative’s Position Responsibilities, and LEIU File Guidelines. LEIU is a professional association that is recognized and discussed in books, periodicals, governmental documents and news media articles (site ref #1). LEIU representatives have voluntarily testified before Federal and State legislative committees (site ref #2) concerning the LEIU organization, its goals, and its role in combating organized criminal enterprises. The importance of gathering criminal intelligence information has been stressed by at least eight (8) National Commissions (site ref #3). The International Association of Chiefs of Police (IACP) has also recognized a need for the collection of criminal information. The IACP hosted a criminal intelligence sharing summit in March 2002, with the intent of enhancing the sharing of intelligence among various national, state and local agencies. LEIU was invited to participate in this summit and has been a leader in developing a National Criminal Intelligence Sharing Plan that will enhance public safety. This Plan recognizes and addresses the critical role that criminal intelligence performs in the implementation of effective Community Oriented Policing strategies within our communities. No professional organization is without individuals who may abuse their regulations. LEIU recognizes that there have been errors made by some law enforcement intelligence units. But the answer to such errors is not the abolition of law enforcement intelligence files and criminal intelligence units. A solution lies, rather, in establishing well-defined standards governing the operations of criminal intelligence units. LEIU supports this concept and recognizes that there has to be a balance between protecting our constitutional liberties and protecting our society against those involved in criminal activity. 1 Examples of Publications - "Crime Confederation", Ralph Salerno; "Theft of a Nation", Dr. Donald Cressey; "Police Chief", IACP; "Combating Organized Crime", Report of Oyster Bay Conference, 1965; "Task Force Report: Organized Crime", President's Commission on Law Enforcement and the Administration of Justice, 1967; Newsday; Los Angeles Times; San Diego Union. 2 Example: A Subcommittee on Constitutional Rights of the United States Senate Committee on the Judiciary, March 14, 1974. 3 National Commissions - President's Commission on the Assassination of President John F. Kennedy, November 29, 1963; President's Commission on Crime in the District of Columbia, July 1967; President's Commission on Law Enforcement and the Administration of Justice, 1967; National Advisory Commission on Civil Disorders, 1967; National Commission on the Causes and Preventions of Violence, 1968; President's Commission on Campus Unrest, 1970; National Advisory Commission on Criminal Justice Standards and Goals, 1971-1973; National Task Force on Organized Crime, 1976. bump --Tommy emphasis added

I mean, of course, the KGB and the CIA and the assassination of JFK, not something of a kinkier nature, you naughty boys and girls! You know, maybe they had some common "vested interests" --- that sort of thing? Or, maybe it was a case of "You scratch my back and I'll scratch yours, and we'll both get filthy rich ... ... or at least a shiny new Lada / Ferrari and a dacha / house on the Black Sea / in La Jolla!)". --Tommy

What about the mysterious phone call and cable from Ft. Sam Houston to MacDill AFB which caused planes from Ft. MacDill to go screaming towards Cuba? Could this be what Bundy meant when he said that the Pentagon was "taking its own steps"? From an excellent post by Steve Thomas on another thread ("How did the police first learn of 1026 N. Beckley?"): [...] In the National Archives, there is a message dated November 26, 1963 from the Commanding General, U.S. Continental Army Command re-transmitting a message dated November 23, 1963 from someone at Fort Sam Houston, in San Antonio to CINC U.S. Strike Command at McDill Air Force Base in Florida. The November 23rd message summarizes a telephone conversation between a Captain Saxton in Strike Command and a Lieutenant Colonel Fons, Deputy Chief of Staff, Intelligence at 4th Army Headquarters at Fort Sam Houston that took place on November 23, 1963. In the middle of this summary, there is this passage: “ASSISTANT CHIEF DON STRINGFELLOW, INTELLIGENCE SECTION, DALLAS POLICE DEPARTMENT, NOTIFIED 112TH INTC GP, THIS HQ, THAT INFORMATION OBRAINED FROM OSWALD REVEALED HE HAD DEFECTED TO CUBA IN 1959 AND IS CARD CARRYING MEMBER OF COMMUNIST PARTY EVALUATION B-3 (FOUO) DCSI COMMENT , FBI, DALLAS, TEXAS, AND SAN ANTONIO LIGHT NEWSPAPER STATED OSWALD TRAVELED TO MOSCOW, USSR, IN 1959. POSSIBILITY EXISTS THAT OSWALD MAY HAVE TRAVELED TO USSR VIA CUBA, IN VIEW OF ABOVE INFORMATION UNCOVERED BY DALLAS POLICE.” In November, 1963 Leonard Don Stringfellow was a Detective in the Criminal Intelligence Section of the Dallas Police Department Special Services Bureau, headed by Captain W. P. Gannaway. What is interesting about this document is that is says that Detective Stringfellow “notified 112th Intelligence Group, this Headquarters…” I believe that this message was the one Col. Robert Jones, formerly of the 112 Military Intelligence Group in San Antonio was asked about during his testimony before the HSCA on April 20, 1978. (History Matters Archive – Unpublished testimony of Robert Jones, pp. 55-57. http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...jones_0055a.htm Jones told the HSCA that while he did not know who prepared the cable, the cable was prepared by Mr. Arthur Nagle on the staff of the Chief of Staff, Intelligence, Fort Sam Houston. The From line on the original cable reads: FM CGASARFOUR FTSAMHOUSTON TEX. This could be Commanding General, Assistant Secretary, Fourth Army Headquarters Fort Sam Houston. He also definitely said that the original cable had not been prepared by the 112th. The RIF for this document reads as follows: AGENCY INFORMATION AGENCY : USA RECORD NUMBER : 197-10002-10369 RECORDS SERIES : HEADQUARTERS FILES, PENTAGON TELECOMMUNICATIONS CENTER DOCUMENT INFORMATION ORIGINATOR : COMMANDING GENERAL US CONTINENTAL ARMY COMMAND FROM : TO : CINC, US STRIKE COMMAND TITLE : INFORMATION ON FAIR PLAY FOR CUBA COMMITTEE DATE : 11/26/1963 PAGES : 3 DOCUMENT TYPE : PAPER, TEXTUAL DOCUMENT SUBJECTS : MILITARY DOMESTIC SURVEILLANCE (SECURITY RISKS/COUNTERINTELLIGENCE); MILITARY DOMESTIC SURVEILLANCE (FAIR PLAY FOR CUBA COMMITTEE); LEE HARVEY OSWALD; COLLINS, BARBARA; GIBSON, RICHARD; OSWALD, HARVEY LEE: BACKGROUND INFORMATION, CONNECTION WITH COMMITTEE; MEMBER OF COMMUNIST PARTY; TRAVEL TO USSR, CUBA; OSWALD, MARINA NIKOLAEVNA: SPOUSE; STRINGFELLOW, DON: ASST CHIEF, INTELLIGENCE SECTION, DALLAS POLICE DEPT; MILITARY INTELLIGENCE LIAISON WITH LAW ENFORCEMENT (DALLAS POLICE) CLASSIFICATION : UNCLASSIFIED RESTRICTIONS : OPEN IN FULL CURRENT STATUS : OPEN DATE OF LAST REVIEW : 07/30/1996 COMMENTS : COPY ATTACHED Ironically, several of the individuals referenced in the original cable were with President Kennedy four days before his assassination when he visited MacDill Air Force Base in Tampa on November 18th. In an article published by Frank DeBenedictis entitled: FOUR DAYS BEFORE DALLAS: JFK IN TAMPA http://www.lib.usf.edu/ldsu/digitalcollect...v16n2_94_57.pdf, DeBenedictis writes: While Suncoast residents moved into their stadium and motorcade viewing spots, the Presidential party was landing at MacDill Air Force Base for a military welcome. On hand to greet Kennedy were General Paul D. Adams, Commander in Chief U.S. Strike Command; Lieutenant General Bruce K. Holloway, Adams’ deputy; General Walter Sweeney, Commander of TAC and headquartered at Langley A.F.B., Virginia; and General John K. Waters, Commander in Chief Continental Army Command, Ft. Monroe, Virginia [...] Steve Thomas ------------------------------------------------------------ And this fine post by Larry Hancock on the "Ask an Expert" part of the Forum: bump

Ronnie, Did he say, "The Pentagon was taking its own steps" or "The Pentagon is taking its own steps"? Probably the latter, as Manchester made an indirect quote of Clifton's indirect quote of Bundy. --Tommy

Ron, Since Bundy said, "The Pentagon is taking its own steps," he could have meant that the Pentagon started doing something a short time before Bundy made the statement, and was still doing it. If your interpretation is correct, then Bundy should have said, "The Pentagon has been taking its own steps", i.e. Investigating LHO's background since around 2:00 PM Dallas time. A more sinister answer would have been, "The Pentagon has taken its own steps." --Tommy

bump (emphasis added)

What about the mysterious phone call and cable from Ft. Sam Houston to MacDill AFB which caused planes from Ft. MacDill to go screaming towards Cuba? Could this be what Bundy meant when he said that the Pentagon was "taking its own steps"? From an excellent post by Steve Thomas on another thread ("How did the police first learn of 1026 N. Beckley?"): [...] In the National Archives, there is a message dated November 26, 1963 from the Commanding General, U.S. Continental Army Command re-transmitting a message dated November 23, 1963 from someone at Fort Sam Houston, in San Antonio to CINC U.S. Strike Command at McDill Air Force Base in Florida. The November 23rd message summarizes a telephone conversation between a Captain Saxton in Strike Command and a Lieutenant Colonel Fons, Deputy Chief of Staff, Intelligence at 4th Army Headquarters at Fort Sam Houston that took place on November 23, 1963. In the middle of this summary, there is this passage: “ASSISTANT CHIEF DON STRINGFELLOW, INTELLIGENCE SECTION, DALLAS POLICE DEPARTMENT, NOTIFIED 112TH INTC GP, THIS HQ, THAT INFORMATION OBRAINED FROM OSWALD REVEALED HE HAD DEFECTED TO CUBA IN 1959 AND IS CARD CARRYING MEMBER OF COMMUNIST PARTY EVALUATION B-3 (FOUO) DCSI COMMENT , FBI, DALLAS, TEXAS, AND SAN ANTONIO LIGHT NEWSPAPER STATED OSWALD TRAVELED TO MOSCOW, USSR, IN 1959. POSSIBILITY EXISTS THAT OSWALD MAY HAVE TRAVELED TO USSR VIA CUBA, IN VIEW OF ABOVE INFORMATION UNCOVERED BY DALLAS POLICE.” In November, 1963 Leonard Don Stringfellow was a Detective in the Criminal Intelligence Section of the Dallas Police Department Special Services Bureau, headed by Captain W. P. Gannaway. What is interesting about this document is that is says that Detective Stringfellow “notified 112th Intelligence Group, this Headquarters…” I believe that this message was the one Col. Robert Jones, formerly of the 112 Military Intelligence Group in San Antonio was asked about during his testimony before the HSCA on April 20, 1978. (History Matters Archive – Unpublished testimony of Robert Jones, pp. 55-57. http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...jones_0055a.htm Jones told the HSCA that while he did not know who prepared the cable, the cable was prepared by Mr. Arthur Nagle on the staff of the Chief of Staff, Intelligence, Fort Sam Houston. The From line on the original cable reads: FM CGASARFOUR FTSAMHOUSTON TEX. This could be Commanding General, Assistant Secretary, Fourth Army Headquarters Fort Sam Houston. He also definitely said that the original cable had not been prepared by the 112th. The RIF for this document reads as follows: AGENCY INFORMATION AGENCY : USA RECORD NUMBER : 197-10002-10369 RECORDS SERIES : HEADQUARTERS FILES, PENTAGON TELECOMMUNICATIONS CENTER DOCUMENT INFORMATION ORIGINATOR : COMMANDING GENERAL US CONTINENTAL ARMY COMMAND FROM : TO : CINC, US STRIKE COMMAND TITLE : INFORMATION ON FAIR PLAY FOR CUBA COMMITTEE DATE : 11/26/1963 PAGES : 3 DOCUMENT TYPE : PAPER, TEXTUAL DOCUMENT SUBJECTS : MILITARY DOMESTIC SURVEILLANCE (SECURITY RISKS/COUNTERINTELLIGENCE); MILITARY DOMESTIC SURVEILLANCE (FAIR PLAY FOR CUBA COMMITTEE); LEE HARVEY OSWALD; COLLINS, BARBARA; GIBSON, RICHARD; OSWALD, HARVEY LEE: BACKGROUND INFORMATION, CONNECTION WITH COMMITTEE; MEMBER OF COMMUNIST PARTY; TRAVEL TO USSR, CUBA; OSWALD, MARINA NIKOLAEVNA: SPOUSE; STRINGFELLOW, DON: ASST CHIEF, INTELLIGENCE SECTION, DALLAS POLICE DEPT; MILITARY INTELLIGENCE LIAISON WITH LAW ENFORCEMENT (DALLAS POLICE) CLASSIFICATION : UNCLASSIFIED RESTRICTIONS : OPEN IN FULL CURRENT STATUS : OPEN DATE OF LAST REVIEW : 07/30/1996 COMMENTS : COPY ATTACHED Ironically, several of the individuals referenced in the original cable were with President Kennedy four days before his assassination when he visited MacDill Air Force Base in Tampa on November 18th. In an article published by Frank DeBenedictis entitled: FOUR DAYS BEFORE DALLAS: JFK IN TAMPA http://www.lib.usf.edu/ldsu/digitalcollect...v16n2_94_57.pdf, DeBenedictis writes: While Suncoast residents moved into their stadium and motorcade viewing spots, the Presidential party was landing at MacDill Air Force Base for a military welcome. On hand to greet Kennedy were General Paul D. Adams, Commander in Chief U.S. Strike Command; Lieutenant General Bruce K. Holloway, Adams’ deputy; General Walter Sweeney, Commander of TAC and headquartered at Langley A.F.B., Virginia; and General John K. Waters, Commander in Chief Continental Army Command, Ft. Monroe, Virginia [...] Steve Thomas ------------------------------------------------------------ And this fine post by Larry Hancock on the "Ask an Expert" part of the Forum: --Tommy ( emphasis added ) P.S. Anyone know why all the "links" in the Steve Thomas post are dead? Thanks.

Joseph, I think the Tramps were found in the box car some time after Cancellare took the photo. Does anyone know if this Cancellare "Hunt" character appears in any other photographs or films taken later that afternoon ? I think it's Hunt. It's interesting that he was so darn attached to that hat with the real wide hat band. Must have worn that sucker for a good thirty years at least...) And by the way, I wonder what the big thing inside his jacket pocket was? Of course Chauncy Holt is another candidate for the Old Tramp. I'm convinced that Holt and Charles Rogers were photographed "protecting" Oswald as he was handing out Fair Play for Cuba flyers in New Orleans. http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKholt.htm --Tommy expanded