Thomas Graves

Bill, IMHO, this is your best post ever! I just now signed the petition... Thanks, --Tommy

I TRIED to hilight my comments and questions in green. Sorry if I've messed up your comments, questions, colors, guys! --Tommy bump

Bill, I want you to know that I consider you to be a terrific researcher. However, I would like to ask you a couple of questions: 1) Of the "two or three men" that Mooney passed on the stairs, why do you say that only one of them was dressed in "plainclothes"? Mooney suggests that all of them were "plainclothes". 2) How did you arrive at "two or three" guys? Mooney said "some". I wonder if deputy sheriffs Vickery and Webster had been any other floors when Mooney ran into them on the seventh? I also wonder who the "citizen" was whom Mooney asked to guard the big gates at the rear of the building. Evidently the guy was already there when Mooney arrived. (I'm thinking it might have been a case of having the fox guard the chicken house.) What do you think, Bill? FROM LUKE MOONEY'S WARREN COMMISSION TESTIMONY: [...] Mr. BALL - Where did you go? Mr. MOONEY - Mr. Webster and Mr. Vickery were there with me at the time that we received these orders from another deputy. Mr. BALL - They are deputy sheriffs? Mr. MOONEY - Yes, sir; they were plainclothes officers like myself, work in the same department, and we run right over to the building then, which we were only 150, 200 feet back--I assume it is that distance I haven't measured it. It didn't take us but a few seconds to get there. When we hit the rear part, these big iron gates, they have cyclone fencing on them--this used to be an old grocery store warehouse--Sachs & Co., I believe is correct. And I says let's get these doors closed to block off this rear entrance. Mr. BALL - Were the doors open? Mr. MOONEY - They were wide open, the big gates. So I grabbed one, and we swung them to, and there was a citizen there, and I put him on orders to keep them shut, because I don't recall whether there was a lock on them or not. Didn't want to lock them because you never know what might happen. So he stood guard, I assume, until a uniformed officer took over. We shut the back door--there was a back door on a little dock. And then we went in through the docks, through the rear entrance. Officer Vickery and Webster said, "We will take the staircase there in the corner. I said, "I will go up the freight elevator." I noticed there was a big elevator there. So I jumped on it. And about that time two women come running and said, "we want to go to the second floor." I said, "All right, get on, we are going." Mr. BALL - Which elevator did you get on? Mr. MOONEY - It was the one nearest to the staircase, on the northwest corner of the building. Mr. BALL - There are two elevators there? Mr. MOONEY - I found that out later. I didn't know it at that time. Mr. BALL - You took the west one, or the east one? Mr. MOONEY - I would say it was the west elevator, the one nearest to the staircase. Mr. BALL - Did it work with a push button? Mr. MOONEY - It was a push button affair the best I can remember. got hold of the controls and it worked. We started up and got to the second. I was going to let them off and go on up. And when we got there, the power undoubtedly cut off, because we had no more power on the elevator. So I looked around their office there, just a short second or two, and then I went up the staircase myself. And I met some other officers coming down, plainclothes, and I believe they were deputy sheriffs. They were coming down the staircase. But I kept going up. And how come I get off the sixth floor, I don't know yet. But, anyway, I stopped on six, and didn't even know what floor I was on. Mr. BALL - You were alone? Mr. MOONEY - I was alone at that time. Mr. BALL - Was there any reason for you to go to the sixth floor? Mr. MOONEY - No, sir. That is what I say. I don't know why. I just stopped on that particular floor. I thought I was pretty close to the top. Mr. BALL - Were there any other officers on the floor? Mr. MOONEY - I didn't see any at that time. I assume there had been other officers up there. But I didn't see them. And I begin criss-crossing it, round and round, through boxes, looking at open windows---some of them were open over on the south side. And I believe they had started laying some flooring up there. I was checking the fire escapes. And criss-crossing back and forth. And then I decided--I saw there was another floor. And I said I would go up. So I went on up to the seventh floor. I approached Officers Webster and Vickery. They were up there in this little old stairway there that leads up into the attic. So we climbed up in there and looked around right quick. [...] --Tommy edited, expanded, bumped Tommy Terriffic, You are correct, and I am guilty of sloppy wording, as I had read Mooney's testimony years ago and wondered who those guys were coming down the stairs and just wrote what I thought I remembered, and you are certainly more specific and correct. I also think that Mooney was a Sheriff's deputy, and was standing outside the sheriff's office when the motorcade went by, standing with many other sherriff's office workers who were ordered to stand down on security, if I remember correctly. So how would he not be able to recognize and name his co-workers, or stop them and ask them a question? And in saying they were plain clothes, that probably means not uniformed and not undercover - they were probably in suits and ties, and not like the guy standing among the homicide cops and boxes on the sixth floor. Also Tommy, do you live in Rep. Darrell Issa's district north of San Diego ("where they play guitars all night and all day," as Bruce the Boss would say)? BK Bill, This is your post which I hadn't read until about ten minutes ago. Sorry! As regards how deputy sheriff Mooney could possibly not recognize a couple of other Dallas County deputy sheriffs, the only thing I can think of is 1) maybe the sheriff's department was really, really big, and 2) maybe the fact that Mooney was usually in his office processing writs and such would explain how he couldn't recognize some other street-type deputy sheriffs, if indeed that's what the "two or three" guys who passed him on the stairs were. --Tommy P.S. Issa represents the 49th District which is many miles north of La Jolla. Camp Pendleton, where LHO was stationed/trained for a while, is in the 49th Congressional District. Oceanside (pop. 183,000) is the biggest city in the District and is very near Camp Pendleton. Lots of conservative Marines and ex-Marines and Navy live there.

I think it's a pretty good idea, Bill, as long as we limit it to the TSBD and its immediate environs, you know, like the big double outside "gates" at the back of the building which Mooney told an unknown Johnny On The Spot "citizen" to guard. --Tommy P.S. Bill, how many of the "two or three" guys Mooney passed on the stairs do you think were wearing "plainclothes"? One of them? All two of them" All three of them? Thanks! I don't know and I'm not going to speculate. Didn't Mooney talk about this later on and give more details? It's his opinion that matters, not mine. BK JFKcountercoup Bill, I just now found your earlier post explaining all this. Sorry for all the "harassment"! --Tommy

I TRIED to hilight my comments and questions in green. Sorry if I've messed up your comments, questions, colors, guys! --Tommy

Interesting. Drug trafficking, Corsicans, Latin America, high-level Nazis, the CIA. This of course raises the specter of a certain Kennedy-hating, very high-level CIA officer: James Jesus Angleton. Angleton, who, ostensibly for intelligence and counter-intelligence purposes, was "in bed with" Sicilian and Corsican drug smugglers going back to WW II's "Operation Husky", (the Allied Invasion of Sicily). I highly recommend that all researchers and wanna-be researchers (like me) read Douglas Valentine's fascinating book The Strength of the Wolf it's about the DEA's main predecessor, the Federal Bureau of Narcotics. Great info on the real "French Connection", the CIA-FBN's MK/ULTRA program, Bill Harvey's "Section D" and ZR/RIFLE, the FBN's possible involvement with the assassination of JFK, etc. --Tommy

Barry, I took a quick look around, and I gotta say it looks great! Thank you SO MUCH for sharing this with the rest of us! Looks like a fantastic research resource! Quick question: What it shown in this Dallas Police Department photo? metph49812_xl_91-001_254.jpg ? Thanks, --Tommy P.S. Is there a file-by-file index in "plain English"? bump

I think it's a pretty good idea, Bill, as long as we limit it to the TSBD and its immediate environs, you know, like the big double outside "gates" at the back of the building which Mooney told an unknown Johnny On The Spot "citizen" to guard. --Tommy P.S. Bill, how many of the "two or three" guys Mooney passed on the stairs do you think were wearing "plainclothes"? One of them? All two of them" All three of them? Thanks!

Bill, I want you to know that I consider you to be a terrific researcher. However, I would like to ask you a couple of questions: 1) Of the "two or three men" that Mooney passed on the stairs, why do you say that only one of them was dressed in "plainclothes"? Mooney suggests that all of them were "plainclothes". 2) How did you arrive at "two or three" guys? Mooney said "some". I wonder if deputy sheriffs Vickery and Webster had been any other floors when Mooney ran into them on the seventh? I also wonder who the "citizen" was whom Mooney asked to guard the big gates at the rear of the building. Evidently the guy was already there when Mooney arrived. (I'm thinking it might have been a case of having the fox guard the chicken house.) What do you think, Bill? FROM LUKE MOONEY'S WARREN COMMISSION TESTIMONY: [...] Mr. BALL - Where did you go? Mr. MOONEY - Mr. Webster and Mr. Vickery were there with me at the time that we received these orders from another deputy. Mr. BALL - They are deputy sheriffs? Mr. MOONEY - Yes, sir; they were plainclothes officers like myself, work in the same department, and we run right over to the building then, which we were only 150, 200 feet back--I assume it is that distance I haven't measured it. It didn't take us but a few seconds to get there. When we hit the rear part, these big iron gates, they have cyclone fencing on them--this used to be an old grocery store warehouse--Sachs & Co., I believe is correct. And I says let's get these doors closed to block off this rear entrance. Mr. BALL - Were the doors open? Mr. MOONEY - They were wide open, the big gates. So I grabbed one, and we swung them to, and there was a citizen there, and I put him on orders to keep them shut, because I don't recall whether there was a lock on them or not. Didn't want to lock them because you never know what might happen. So he stood guard, I assume, until a uniformed officer took over. We shut the back door--there was a back door on a little dock. And then we went in through the docks, through the rear entrance. Officer Vickery and Webster said, "We will take the staircase there in the corner. I said, "I will go up the freight elevator." I noticed there was a big elevator there. So I jumped on it. And about that time two women come running and said, "we want to go to the second floor." I said, "All right, get on, we are going." Mr. BALL - Which elevator did you get on? Mr. MOONEY - It was the one nearest to the staircase, on the northwest corner of the building. Mr. BALL - There are two elevators there? Mr. MOONEY - I found that out later. I didn't know it at that time. Mr. BALL - You took the west one, or the east one? Mr. MOONEY - I would say it was the west elevator, the one nearest to the staircase. Mr. BALL - Did it work with a push button? Mr. MOONEY - It was a push button affair the best I can remember. got hold of the controls and it worked. We started up and got to the second. I was going to let them off and go on up. And when we got there, the power undoubtedly cut off, because we had no more power on the elevator. So I looked around their office there, just a short second or two, and then I went up the staircase myself. And I met some other officers coming down, plainclothes, and I believe they were deputy sheriffs. They were coming down the staircase. But I kept going up. And how come I get off the sixth floor, I don't know yet. But, anyway, I stopped on six, and didn't even know what floor I was on. Mr. BALL - You were alone? Mr. MOONEY - I was alone at that time. Mr. BALL - Was there any reason for you to go to the sixth floor? Mr. MOONEY - No, sir. That is what I say. I don't know why. I just stopped on that particular floor. I thought I was pretty close to the top. Mr. BALL - Were there any other officers on the floor? Mr. MOONEY - I didn't see any at that time. I assume there had been other officers up there. But I didn't see them. And I begin criss-crossing it, round and round, through boxes, looking at open windows---some of them were open over on the south side. And I believe they had started laying some flooring up there. I was checking the fire escapes. And criss-crossing back and forth. And then I decided--I saw there was another floor. And I said I would go up. So I went on up to the seventh floor. I approached Officers Webster and Vickery. They were up there in this little old stairway there that leads up into the attic. So we climbed up in there and looked around right quick. [...] --Tommy edited, expanded, bumped

[...] --Tommy dupe; deleted

What a load of rubbish! In the unlikely case it is indeed true that Mormons like CIA agents refer to themselves as a 'sisterhood' the term is like to have originated with the former since their group is a century older. Neither Porter nor Studdert held very important positions under Bush the former was "Assistant to the President for Economic and Domestic Policy" the latter "United States Delegate to the United Nations Energy Conference in Africa, to the United States Delegation to the 40th NATO Summit". Both held similar positions under Ford and Reagan. Of the three only National Security Adviser Scowcroft held a key position but as with the others he served under Ford when he held the same job.* Mormons are about 2% of the US population but are larger portion of middle-upper class whites like the overwhelming majority of top presidential advisors. And are disproportionately Republican, so Bush's appointment of the three is not beyond what we would expect based on the law of averages. Dean obviously has sort of paranoia regarding -Mormons. Elsewhere he wrote: I certainly hope Rommey isn't elected but the problem isn't his religion and he is the least offensive of the Republicans with areal chance of being nominated. ironic that someone on a JFK forum would display such religious prejudice. * All biographical details of the 3 drawn from Wikipedia EDIT - Typo Is Mormonism a religion? Hmmmm. Seems more like an influential cult with religious overtones to me. It will be interesting as Mitt owns a 3000 sq. ft. summer home (which he's going to raze and replace with an 11,000 sq. ft. villa) on the beach in my hometown of La Jolla, California. You know, the same town in which Clint Murchison had his infamous Hotel Del Charro? I wouldn't be surprised if Mitt's S.S. agents are already keeping an eye on "suspicious characters" like me. That's why I've decided to not put an "Obama in 2012" bumper sticker on my beat-up camper van! --Tommy

I've read that the Mafia took a photo of Hoover and Tolson engaged in sexual activity at mobbed-up Clint Murchison's Hotel Del Charro. It's interesting to note that Gordon Novel said James Jesus Angleton showed him a copy... An apparently anonymous Tripod website which has Anthony Summers writings on Hoover's sexual proclivities and how it was taken advantage of by the Mafia and (mobbed-up) Angleton of the CIA: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:fYCmBxOBo00J:edgar-hoover.tripod.com/+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us --Tommy augmented and bumped

(emphasis added by T. Graves)I agree. I would think that a second year nursing student would be, by definition, a highly observant person who is blessed with a good memory, much like a second year medical student. Therefore, the boo-boo is insignificant when considered in the context of observing a bullet hole in a windshield, unless a medical student would be better at determining whether it was an entrance or an exit hole. You know, physics and conchoidal fractures in vitreous materials and all that. Regarding the windshield, I assume it was made of standard "laminated safety glass". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laminated_glass Informative text and photos of bullet holes in laminated glass and tempered glass: http://books.google.com/books?id=ipC6mEYh-qMC&pg=PA150&lpg=PA150&dq=%22laminated+glass%22+%22bullet+hole%22&source=bl&ots=Ak0-wOjG_J&sig=eX1vM0Z0fLzwn2QLBzgxbdBjrHg&hl=en&sa=X&ei=-G8TT86FMuiZiAKlleHGDg&ved=0CDgQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=%22laminated%20glass%22%20%22bullet%20hole%22&f=false --Tommy

Nathaniel, BFD. (Big Fledermaus Deal) --Tommy ---- Tom if you listen to the interviews that mistake falls into a pattern all of which seem to belittle the windshield research. I am currently using the Richard Dudman angle to provoke awareness on the web site of the St. Louis Post Dispatch, and am interested in the relative merits of each side of the windshield discourse. I am sorry for saying discourse. I have not taken sides on the windshield, because it can be unhealthy for insects and posters on this forum. I am merely trying to see what the consensus view of the windshield is. And whether that consensus is justified. As I said, the doc to nurse change might not be significant out of context, but in the context of the interview if fits a pattern. The reverse mistake is hard to imagine. Nathaniel, Thanks for the informative and well written reply. I wish everyone on the Forum could write as clearly and logically as you do. I can understand your being concerned with the (Glanges) nurse vs. doctor (or medical student) issue. I am more concerned about the fact that the people who witnessed a through-and-through hole in the windshield disagree as to which part of the windshield (high or low) the bullet hole was situated! To me, it is symptomatic of all of the conflicting testimony in this complex and frustrating case. --Tommy

Nathaniel, BFD. (Big Fledermaus Deal) --Tommy

I've read that the Mafia took a photo of Hoover and Tolson engaged in sexual activity at mobbed-up Clint Murchison's Hotel Del Charro. It's interesting to note that Gordon Novel said James Jesus Angleton showed him a copy... An apparently anonymous Tripod website which references Anthony Summers on Hoover's sexual proclivities and how it was taken advantage of by the Mafia: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:fYCmBxOBo00J:edgar-hoover.tripod.com/+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us --Tommy

Bill, I want you to know that I consider you to be a terrific researcher. However, I would like to ask you a couple of questions: 1) Of the "two or three men" that Mooney passed on the stairs, why do you say that only one of them was dressed in "plainclothes"? Mooney suggests that all of them were "plainclothes" (which I take to mean suit-wearing)? 2) How did you arrive at "two or three" guys? Mooney said "some". FROM LUKE MOONEY'S WARREN COMMISSION TESTIMONY: [...] Mr. BALL - Where did you go? Mr. MOONEY - Mr. Webster and Mr. Vickery were there with me at the time that we received these orders from another deputy. Mr. BALL - They are deputy sheriffs? Mr. MOONEY - Yes, sir; they were plainclothes officers like myself, work in the same department, and we run right over to the building then, which we were only 150, 200 feet back--I assume it is that distance I haven't measured it. It didn't take us but a few seconds to get there. When we hit the rear part, these big iron gates, they have cyclone fencing on them--this used to be an old grocery store warehouse--Sachs & Co., I believe is correct. And I says let's get these doors closed to block off this rear entrance. Mr. BALL - Were the doors open? Mr. MOONEY - They were wide open, the big gates. So I grabbed one, and we swung them to, and there was a citizen there, and I put him on orders to keep them shut, because I don't recall whether there was a lock on them or not. Didn't want to lock them because you never know what might happen. So he stood guard, I assume, until a uniformed officer took over. We shut the back door--there was a back door on a little dock. And then we went in through the docks, through the rear entrance. Officer Vickery and Webster said, "We will take the staircase there in the corner. I said, "I will go up the freight elevator." I noticed there was a big elevator there. So I jumped on it. And about that time two women come running and said, "we want to go to the second floor." I said, "All right, get on, we are going." Mr. BALL - Which elevator did you get on? Mr. MOONEY - It was the one nearest to the staircase, on the northwest corner of the building. Mr. BALL - There are two elevators there? Mr. MOONEY - I found that out later. I didn't know it at that time. Mr. BALL - You took the west one, or the east one? Mr. MOONEY - I would say it was the west elevator, the one nearest to the staircase. Mr. BALL - Did it work with a push button? Mr. MOONEY - It was a push button affair the best I can remember. got hold of the controls and it worked. We started up and got to the second. I was going to let them off and go on up. And when we got there, the power undoubtedly cut off, because we had no more power on the elevator. So I looked around their office there, just a short second or two, and then I went up the staircase myself. And I met some other officers coming down, plainclothes, and I believe they were deputy sheriffs. They were coming down the staircase. But I kept going up. And how come I get off the sixth floor, I don't know yet. But, anyway, I stopped on six, and didn't even know what floor I was on. Mr. BALL - You were alone? Mr. MOONEY - I was alone at that time. Mr. BALL - Was there any reason for you to go to the sixth floor? Mr. MOONEY - No, sir. That is what I say. I don't know why. I just stopped on that particular floor. I thought I was pretty close to the top. Mr. BALL - Were there any other officers on the floor? Mr. MOONEY - I didn't see any at that time. I assume there had been other officers up there. But I didn't see them. And I begin criss-crossing it, round and round, through boxes, looking at open windows---some of them were open over on the south side. And I believe they had started laying some flooring up there. I was checking the fire escapes. And criss-crossing back and forth. And then I decided--I saw there was another floor. And I said I would go up. So I went on up to the seventh floor. I approached Officers Webster and Vickery. They were up there in this little old stairway there that leads up into the attic. So we climbed up in there and looked around right quick. [...] --Tommy BTW, I wonder if deputy sheriffs Vickery and Webster had been any other floors when Mooney ran into them on the seventh? And I also wonder who the "citizen" was whom Mooney asked to guard the big gates at the rear of the building. Evidently the guy was already there when Mooney arrived. (I'm thinking it might have been a case of having the fox guard the chicken house.) What do you think, Bill?

Tommy, You are begging the question. A great portion of this thread has revolved around the question of Zapruder film authenticity: Is it or is it not authentic? Therefore, using the Z-film frame count in order to measure the events and/or the position of the actual physical elements is fallacious. In other words, CHANEY is a witness, indeed, he is a qualified witness (regarding competence of judging distances) due to the nature of his job. Where photographic evidence is at odds with key qualified eyewitness testimony the former's reliability does not stand. Photographic and film evidence require the corroboration of witnesses in order to even be admissible in a courtroom. Chaney's testimony is admissible without the Zapruder film. The Zapruder film requires corroboration by witnesses. You have it backwards, my friend. OK, Greg. Got it. Thanks! --Tommy Question: Is there any unaltered photographic evidence which shows the limo when it was "fifty feet or less" from the TSBD building? Thanks again my friend, --Tommy

Scott, I remember seeing a photo of him dressed up in a woman's evening gown and wearing a wig and lipstick at a party. Looked pretty hot, actually, especially if you're into overweight society matrons who have a face like a bulldog. I've read that he and Clyde Tolson were inseparable. My dad told me that he once saw Hoover and Tolson together one summer at the horse races in Del Mar, California (about 15 miles north of Murchison's Hotel Del Charro in La Jolla). --Tommy Thanks Tommy, think I'll go to Liddy and give him the bad news... Scott, Give G. Gordon a big wet kiss for me when you see him. Uhhh... No, don't do that! I WAS JUST KIDDING! --Tommy Haha! Are you saying that the G man is a little tooty fruity too? He'd make a great commercial for I-Hop Sorry, Scott. I wouldn't know about G. Gordon, but I wouldn't be surprised. You see, that's not the kind of bar (or sauna) I go to. LOL Except when I was driving a taxi and my dispatcher sent me there! The first time it was a very weird feeling walking in and realizing that all eyes were "on" me! I guess that's when I first experienced Hemingway's concept of "grace under pressure" on a personal level, and somehow managed to summon up a very manly voice and ask the bartender, "Who the H__ called for a cab? Whoever it was, they've got twenty God____ seconds to get in it!" Longest d___ twenty seconds in my life! Got pretty good at it, actually, eventually... --Tommy Hey! I have an idea! Why don't you ask him?

So Chaney said he thought "the shot" (is he talking about the shot that blew JFK's head off?) came from the sixth floor of a warehouse building (the TSBD) about 50 feet or less behind the President's car. And he estimated that the bullet traveled about 110 feet. I've always thought that the President's car was a lot farther from the TSBD than fifty feet. And I think the distance from the traditional "sniper's lair" to the limo at Z-313 was more like 180 feet. Am I correct? Thanks, --Tommy I think he was describing the first shot, which he thought missed. Even so, the limo was clearly more than 110 feet away at the time. The distance at the time of the head shot was supposedly 265 feet. While some LNers might use his estimation to try to argue Chaney heard a first shot miss way back when they claim it missed, around Z-160, they'd be pretty silly to do so, IMO, as Chaney was adamant the second shot hit Kennedy in the head. If he thought the first shot was fired around Z-160 and missed, and that the next shot was the head shot at Z-313, after all, he'd have to have been the worst witness ever. The Altgens photo, one should recall, shows him looking to his left at Z-255. One can only hope he'd have noticed SOME movement in the limo at this time. And indeed he did. He thought Kennedy was looking back over his left shoulder, when he was really reacting to the first shot. Which did not miss. Pat, According to Don Roberdeau's map, the limo was approximately 90 feet from the TSBD building at Z-160. Chaney said it was fifty feet or less. As far as I'm concerned, Chaney is an unreliable "witness" based on this discrepancy alone. The "or less" bit really did it for me. --Tommy

Scott, I remember seeing a photo of him dressed up in a woman's evening gown and wearing a wig and lipstick at a party. Looked pretty hot, actually, especially if you're into overweight society matrons who have a face like a bulldog. I've read that he and Clyde Tolson were inseparable. My dad told me that he once saw Hoover and Tolson together one summer at the horse races in Del Mar, California (about 15 miles north of Murchison's Hotel Del Charro in La Jolla). --Tommy Thanks Tommy, think I'll go to Liddy and give him the bad news... Scott, Give G. Gordon a big wet kiss for me when you see him. Uhhh... No, don't do that! I WAS JUST KIDDING! --Tommy

So Chaney said he thought "the shot" (is he talking about the shot that blew JFK's head off?) came from the sixth floor of a warehouse building (the TSBD) about 50 feet or less behind the President's car. And he estimated that the bullet traveled about 110 feet. I've always thought that the President's car was a lot farther from the TSBD than fifty feet. And I think the distance from the traditional "sniper's lair" to the limo at Z-313 was more like 180 feet. Am I correct? Thanks, --Tommy

Scott, I remember seeing a photo of him dressed up in a woman's evening gown and wearing a wig and lipstick at a party. Looked pretty hot, actually, especially if you're into overweight society matrons who have a face like a bulldog. I've read that he and Clyde Tolson were inseparable. My dad told me that he once saw Hoover and Tolson together one summer at the horse races in Del Mar, California (about 15 miles north of Murchison's Hotel Del Charro in La Jolla). --Tommy

bump

Ed, Why do you say "the placard" (singular) when Martello clearly said "some placards" (plural)? When Martello says that he "...observed some placards marked as evidence (and) saw that they were signed by the Fair Play for Cuba [Committee]...", I think he was talking about LHO's handbills or flyers, not cardboard (or whatever) signs. I think he simply used the wrong word, "placards", instead of "flyers" or "handbills". Maybe LHO didn't have any signs at all with him when he was arrested. Which would explain why you can't find them in evidence, Ed. And if LHO did have a sign with him, it makes sense that he would have had only one sign with him because passing out flyers and holding more than one sign would have been very awkward, to say the least. Even holding just one sign and passing out flyers would have been awkward. I think Martello was referring to LHO's flyers or handbills (plural), but unfortunately used the word "placards" instead. --Tommy Hi Tommy, I say placard because I want to see the Oswald one. The other was torn up (not Lee's) and placed in a police car and later entered into evidence. (with Lee's) But 'later' all that was referenced by Martello is the handouts and pamphlets. This is why I'm tracing/tracking the film that was taken by the Doyle's. It should show the Placards. But I'm interested in the correlation between the Attic and NO placard of Lee's. Were they the same? If one was found in Neely then it could not have been the same as the NO one. All this is intertwined. Attempting to unravel, it is difficult with witnesses deceased and all. Now Martello talked specifically about the placard of Lee's that had info about membership and other handouts attached to it. The ripped up one was carried by his "assistant"(& was on a stick) Lee's had a string for placing around his neck. Its all in the Doyle/Wilson interviews. It also ties into the pamphlets and handouts sent by FPCC in NY to Lee near the time he left for NO. If these were picked up by Lee at his PO box then why get more printed in NO? Lots of questions to be answered. Still looking for Doyle film to help answer them. Hope this helps Tommy. Two Placards, One was Lee's on a string, second was his helpers and on a stick. (or at least that's the testimony) ;-) Ed Hey Ed, Great post! Thanks for summarizing and clarifying it all for me. I wish you the best of luck in your researching endeavors! --Tommy