Thomas Graves

Jimbo, Heck no, I ain't gonna forget 'bout Arizonie. They sez there's still a lot o' gold to-be-found 'round the Rich Hill/Antelope Crick area. Corse them Keating Fives probably done highgraded it by now... --Tommy

Great work, Duncan! Regarding "I enhanced the arrowed area. What do you see?", I see two men standing near the window, the one on the right a bit farther back and wearing a white shirt or T-shirt. The one on the left looking down and wearing a tan jacket and possibly holding a rifle vertically in front of him from with the butt of the rifle about at his chest and going down from there. The head of the guy on the right is partially obscured by that brown thing on the left and he's looking down and pretty far to his left so that his head is almost "in profile" and he looks like he has a receding hairline and long sideburns. Only the top two-thirds (or less) of the face of the guy on the left is visible. He has a receding hairline as well and two "locks" or "shocks" (or whatever you call them) of hair from the top-front part of his head are falling onto his forehead because that hair's fairly long and he's looking down at a steep angle. That's what I see. What do you see? --Tommy

Right on, Jimbo! David either can't remember the name of the darn dentist after 35 years or can't find the piece of paper on which he may have written it (this now-crucial-to-some-people factoid of future forensic evidence) and/or doesn't want to bother the person he knew thirty-something years ago who had the same dentist as Witt in 1963. That is if that person is still alive. And can remember it. Or find their piece of paper. --Tommy

Lighten up for God's sake, Tom, or are you going to start moderating humour next? Hey, that's a good idea! He'd probably be quite good at it! --Tommy

If David Lifton tells us the name of Witt's dentist--and it can be verified--I might even consider telling him what I think about the moon landings! But you've already told us what you think of the moon landings. You're not sure. You haven't studied it enough yet, etc. Someone said you are a motorcycle officer. Suppose you stop someone for speeding, and the ticket is contested, and you find yourself in court, and your opponent raises this issue, and the judge asks you. . . Well, officer. . do you think we went to the moon, or not? Don't you think it will cause some raised eyebrows if you tell the court that you aren't sure? That you haven't "studied the matter enough" etc.? As for the dentist's identity, these conversations happened 35 years ago--just before (or at the time of) the HSCA hearings. The source was a friend (from Dallas) who had the same dentist--i.e., Witt's dentist. I haven't seen her in over thirty years. Do you think I should have kept some sort of "forensic diary" at the time? So I would be able to produce the name of the dentist three decades hence, as "corroboration" for someone like yourself; when the man himself (i.e., Witt) was visited at his home by a congressional investigator (Moriarty), and then appeared as a sworn witness in a nationally televised congressional investigation. (Are you kidding??) I think I've made my own position pretty clear on Witt. (And I've also told you that both Earl Golz and Penn Jones seemed, who actually confronted Witt, I'm told, where he worked, were satisfied that it was him). Steve Witt and his umbrella represents a conspiracy hypothesis that's hard (for some) to give up. They're enamored of it. Like an old romance, it will never go away. I never had that problem, because the things I have believed in, over the years, concern the falsification of the autopsy, and matters pertaining to the true identity of Oswald. I truly think the issue here is what's relevant, and what is not. I think Mr. Farley ought to go back to his hypothesizing that Mary Bledsoe wasn't on the bus, when Oswald boarded--which seems to be the focus of his concept of "conspiracy"--and you, Mr. Burnham, ought to take the time to decide whether or not we went to the moon. DSL Great post!

If David Lifton tells us the name of Witt's dentist--and it can be verified--I might even consider telling him what I think about the moon landings! I wonder why it's such a struggle for him to tell us? I think we should seriously consider kicking him off the forum if he continues to refuse to divulge the name of the darn dentist. He's got a lot of darn gall! JUST KIDDING My ulterior motive for this here "reply" was to bump this here thread. Seriously! --Tommy

Thanks Evan, What are they searching for? --Tommy

I'll bet she's a Russian spy. Oh Goodie!

I don't think the two are related. IMHO. Kathy C Oh those guys! They look like Operation Phoenix guys Colby (William) and Milberg (Warren). Or maybe their cousins! Cheers PF FWIW, there were three of them walking in a tight group in the foreground. (Hey! Maybe they were "tight"!)

Is it possible that the Oswald-Odio introduction is a part of period anti-Castro activity, but not strictly a part of the assassination planning? That it points toward conspiracy against JFK, but was not an attempt to frame Oswald? If not, it seems like an act of desperation, a flailing to create a confusing association for Oswald. To what end? What was the motive for creating an Oswald-Odio connection? Would an established connection bolster the image of "Oswald" as an extrapolitical nutter, willing to shoot either Castro, Walker, Nixon, or Kennedy? Putting Oswald in the company of two plotters of any stripe is enough to quash the plot's usefulness to an anti-conspiracy investigation. What, if anything, was planned for the case of an investigation intended to establish conspiracy evidence? Again, the introduction seems like a desperation move, unless the Oswald-Odio introduction is just an infiltration exercise outside the assassination plotting, just an attempt to entrap Odio in anti-Castro plotting for reasons unrelated to the assassination. Was the Oswald-Odio introduction just a sideline use of Oswald's spy and provocateur talents? Arguments against? Bumped, because I'd like to know what people think is the motive for the Oswald-Odio introduction. I understand why the incident helps prove conspiracy in the assassination. I edited this post several times to be more exact than in the original version Tommy Graves quotes in Post #159. Because of their father, the Odio sisters would have been held in a certain respect in the anti-Castro exile community. But what connections or influence did the Odio sisters really have, or bother to exploit? They seem, to my understanding, retired at that point from political activity, reclusive even. Sylvia certainly did not exploit the Oswald incident after the assassination, becoming more fearful and withdrawn instead after the Warren Commission experience. This is what I mean when I say that approaching them was a "desperation move" in any assassination plotting. Was that the best introduction any assassination plotters could have cooked up for "Oswald"? Well, the father was also in prison in Cuba for harboring some Castro assassins in a plot that involved snipers. He was, I believe, a member of JURE, and you have to put that into the context of the other orgs - DRE, Alpha 66, etc. Sylvia wrote to her father in prison and mentioned these men - before the assassination, and he wrote back and gave her advice on this issue. If you want to figure out what it all means, I think that you have to put the Odio visit in the context of the Bray-Bendix incident - in which Bray, an employee of Bendix who is said to know something about the equipment failures that led to the sinking of the nuke sub USS Thresher - Bray was visited by three men in suits who claimed to represent JFCOTT - Justice for the Crew of the Thresher, which went down on JFK's watch. These guys from JFCOTT threatened the life of the President and John Connally, as former Navy Sec. Was this a similar attempt to establish another motive for the assassination, similar to the Cuban one also laid out in a smilar fashion? Also, Odio was pals with John Martino, who may have known Sylvia's father from prison, and Father McChann, the Catholic priest who was assigned to cater to the spiritual needs of the Cuban community in Dallas, and had also heard the story of the Cuban visitors from Sylvia before the assassination. McChann was also possibly entangled sexually with both Sylvia and another parishioner, Sullivan, who wrote a book about the whole affair. McChann split Dallas for New Orleans where he spent time in hibernation at a seminary and then left the priesthood for Thailand, where he lives today. When Martino came through Dallas on his book tour he met with Sylvia and was on stage with Mchann. BK JFKcountercoup bump

Was Dinkin actually a "code breaker" or was he a "crypto operator", as Dick Russell asserts in TMWKTM? I googled "crypto operator" and "cryptographic operator" and what I came up with is basically someone with a "top secret" clearance who looks after the computers and changes the codes on a regular basis. Someone please correct me on this and document the fact that Dinkin was a "code breaker" or, even better, an "intelligence analyst" ala the way mathematician John Nash was portrayed by Cameron Crowe in "A Beautiful Mind"... --Tommy

Alexa is lurking! --Tommy P.S. She was here at approximately 4:10 am December 11, 2011 GMT

I found an obvious error that Tim Gratz made in the above post and took the liberty to correct it in bold face. Originally it said that Hemming had called Harry Williams! (The error is still in Tim Gratz's same JFK Assassination Debate Forum post on the Spartacus page on Angelo Murgado, however, and perhaps other places as well.) --Tommy P.S. Remember, Hemming told Gratz that Charles Siragusa was running Bernardo de Torres...

Well, they're definitely not cousins. --Tommy

Tom I think I broke my chair on this, luckily floor was there to break my fall Funny!

According to the article, 'Prince of Theives' by E. Burton Mercer (Probable Cause Australia, 11/1994) the true identity of QJ/WIN was the WW2 French Army captain, Michael Victor Mertz. Is this article posted on line, and if not will a forum member with it please post it? Thanks, BK Bill, Did you try clicking on the link that Steve provided? The article starts below the FBI report. --Tommy

Tom, Sounds like a classic case of The Pot Calling The Kettle "black". LOL BTW, what does the bulk of your post have to do with the topic of this tread? Would one of the other moderators please redirect Mr Scully's post elsewhere? Thank you, --Tommy P.S. I think it's pretty obvious that a hand off did take place. Whether or not we will ever know what the hand off object was, or the identities of the two persons involved, lots of people seem to be involved in the choreographed "dance" taking place in the uncropped version of this part of the film (links to which I put in earlier posts on this thread). There's even a Rambler station wagon with its four headlights on in the background with a Long Coat approaching it. I think we need to take a closer look at not only Tan Jacket Man and Blue Coated Cuban-Looking Man, but also at "Long Coat Man" and all of the other people involved in "the dance" by trying to find them in other films and photos. Maybe that way we can establish their identities and other, possibly sinister, associations. Maybe we can even "exonerate" them! Kind of like a photographic version of "Namebase", or a photographic version of Tom Scully's "seven-degrees-of-separation" approach to documents, obituaries, wedding announcements, etc, but just a tad more "tangible". I guess you could call the putative hand off, at this point, "just" circumstantial evidence ...

emphasis ADDED by T. Graves P.S. Remember that Gerry Patrick Hemming told Tim Gratz that Charles Siragusa (of the Federal Bureau of Narcotics; for William Harvey in ZR/RIFLE?) was running Bernardo de Torres. Hemming claimed was Bernardo de Torres was the "Leopoldo" who was with Angelo Murgado ("Angel") and LHO at Silvia Odio's house in late September, 1963. As y'all know, Odio said that "Leopoldo" called her a day or two later and told her that "Leon" (LHO) was an ex-Marine, an expert marksman, a little "nuts", was capable of doing "anything", had said that they "should have shot President Kennedy after The Bay of Pigs," and that they should still do it. --Tommy bump

No politician in the U.S. or in Germany would ever consider a demand for forfeiture of the Quandt family fortune, or of the fortunes of any German industrialists. The lowly prison guard is required to forfeit his freedom. Tom, Kudos on the relatively short post. I actually read more than half of it. --Tommy

Unfortunately, trying to communicate with anyone who refuses to debate issues in a constructive manner and instead makes demands is a waste of time. I'm hoping to keep this crucially important thread on "page one" forever! So, here's my two cents for today-- TINKER Tailor Soldier Sailor! --Tommy

There have been some possible?/probable? sightings of both of them, individually. Cancellare 7 for Blue Coated Cuban-Looking Guy and the Bell film for TJM walking across the grass on the south side of Elm Street. The Bronson film possibly shows TJM standing in the crowd on Houston Street(?) with his back to the camera as the limo passes by. I highly suggest people take a look at the thread Hughes Parking-Lot Man in Bell Film? (among others) on the JFK Assassination Forum. I wish I'd starting going to that forum a long time ago (in conjunction, of course, with the good old JFK Assassination Debate)! --Tommy Hey! Maybe Tan Jacket Man was a Charlie Siragusa QJ/WIN-chosen, William Harvey ZR/RIFLE... French Heroin Connection CORSICAN assassin! LOL? He looks Corsican to me.

emphasis ADDED by T. Graves P.S. Remember that Gerry Patrick Hemming told Tim Gratz that Charles Siragusa (of the Federal Bureau of Narcotics; for William Harvey in ZR/RIFLE) was running Bernardo de Torres. Hemming claimed Bernardo de Torres was the "Leopoldo" who was with Angelo Murgado ("Angel") and LHO at Silvia Odio's house in late September, 1963. As y'all know, Odio said that "Leopoldo" called her a day or two later and told her that "Leon" (LHO) was an ex-Marine, an expert marksman, a little "nuts", was capable of doing "anything", had said that they "should have shot President Kennedy after The Bay of Pigs," and that they should still do it. --Tommy

bump; emphasis added by T. Graves P.S. Gerry Patrick Hemming said that Bernardo de Torres ("Leopoldo") and Angelo Murgado ("Angel") and LHO were at Silvia Odio's house together. This was later confirmed by Murgado himself in an interview with Joan Mellen. Gerry Patrick Hemming also said that Bernardo de Torres was run by Charlie Siragusa. P.P.S. Professor Alan Block thinks that Siragusa was QJ/WIN, the talent spotter and manager of assassins for ZR/RIFLE. In plain, straightforward, unpretentious, easy-to-understand English: bumped again. --Tommy

bump; emphasis added by Tommy P.S. Gerry Patrick Hemming said that Bernardo de Torres ("Leopoldo") and Angelo Murgado ("Angel") accompanied LHO to Silvia Odio's house. He also said that BdT was run by Charlie Siragusa. P.P.S. Professor Alan Block thinks that Siragusa was QJ/WIN. rebumped