Thomas Graves

Would you have preferred that I just go ahead and lie and pretend that that I know that Oswald picked up his revolver at such-and-such location (either REA or the Post Office)? Make no mistake about what I'm saying -- LHO absolutely, positively DID pick up that V510210 S&W revolver in March '63. I'm just not sure WHERE he picked it up. But just basic common sense (coupled with the facts listed below) prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Oswald picked up the revolver that he ordered from Seaport: 1.) Oswald ordered a S&W revolver from Seaport in early 1963. 2.) Seaport shipped S&W revolver V510210 to Oswald/"Hidell" on 3/20/63. 3.) Oswald was arrested with Revolver V510210 in his hands on 11/22/63. (Plus, there's no indication whatsoever that REA sent the revolver back to Seaport, which certainly would have happened if Oswald had never picked up the gun. And this same thing applies to LHO's Carcano rifle. That gun was never sent back to Klein's by the Post Office. Hence, somebody picked it up. And since Oswald is the person who ordered it and paid for it, the person most likely to pick it up at HIS OWN POST OFFICE BOX is Lee Oswald. Isn't this just basic math? I think it is.) To deny that Oswald took possession of the V510210 revolver under the above conditions is downright silly. I think patsy Oswald might have been manipulated into buying the mail-order guns and/or moved into place by being led into thinking he was an intelligence agent working for Thomas J. Dodd's Senate Subcommittee on Juvenile Delinquency, which was investigating mail-order gun houses, and/or investigating for the FBI or Customs or whomever a gunrunning operation going on in the TSBD. The gunrunning theory reminds me of the the fact that the boxcar the three tramps were found in had a quantity of explosives inside it. --Tommy

I respectfully disagree. The following observations and comments are based on my "life experiences" (you might want to google "Tommy O'Pepper" right about now), and my having viewed the cropped, slow-motion version (above), as well as the un-cropped normal-speed version. Blue Coat man, seeing TJM turning to leave, instead of standing still or moving a bit to his right to get out of TJM's way and let him pass by unhindered, actually takes half a step towards TJM and leans towards him right as he's passing by. (That wasn't a very nice thing for a complete stranger to do in such a crowded place was it, now?) Notice how TJM quickly but gently "punches" BCM in the midsection? Was TJM just giving his Latin Lover boyfriend, into whose eyes he, unfortunately, can't stand to look, a little "love punch"? Well, I suppose it's possible, just like it's possible that TJM is one of them Pickpocket Contraries I was a-telling DVP about. But it's more reasonable to assume that BCM has just opened his jacket pocket, with his out-of-view right hand, for TJM to put the black object into. It's also interesting how TJM clenches his teeth and makes those muscles pop out on the side of his face. Mud-dah [explicative deleted] !!!, I knew I shud-da had that tooth extracted last month!!? Nah, imho it's more likely just an example of an Operative giving a potentially dangerous action his intense concentration in a crowded public place without trying to show it. You say that there is no eye contact between TJM and BCM. Even if you're right, why would eye contact between "professionals" be necessary for a hand off? They do look at each other for a couple of seconds-- TJM stares wistfully? at BCM's midsection (the handoff target area) through his whole turn, and BCM gazes wistfully? at TJM's face during the whole transaction. You suggest that TJM starts leaving because Long Coat Man shooed them away. Why would LCM do that? Those bystanders weren't interfering with the investigation. Do we see officials shooing bystanders away in any of the other films or photos taken that day? I think the police would have wanted all of the potential witnesses or perps to hang around a bit longer so they could be questioned/interviewed/interrogated. Hey, a helpful bystander might notice something and bring it to the attention of the investigators/searchers. The only incidences of "cops" or "persons of authority" shooing people away after the assassination ("Ya don't come up here now, ya hear? You just might get yourself kilt or something") was done by unidentified Mysto-Cops (who also seemed to enjoy kicking people, pointing their guns at them, and taking their cameras. You suggest (and then dismiss) a possible conspiracy scenario which incorporates the "fact" that TJM had been looking for BCM and "found" him in the parking lot. Well, I think TJM knew in advance exactly where to "find" BCM because it was all planned out ahead of time by Professionals with a capital "P". TJM and BCM and LCM were also consummate pros (as evidenced by their lack of eye contact, the almost undetectable hand off itself, etc.) Hey, I would have expected nothing less than the very best of the "crew" that Angleton and Harvey, through their FBN-based mafia contacts, would employ to hit the most powerful man in the world. You know, David, you really do have to take into consideration all the other things that are going on in this clip (un-cropped version) to make any sense out of any part of it. Kinda like playing chess, I reckon. LOL Let's see. Hmmm... Long Coat Man gives a signal to TJM (perhaps even an acknowledgement of having received a signal from TJM), and then wah-lah, all kinds of people go into action. Hmmm... The black adolescent in the white shirt and tie and long light-colored raincoat (who was looking at Long Coat Man for the signal, too) and the black guys in front of and to the left side of TJM start moving and following TJM, and the black dude in the leather jacket and wearing a cap makes an arm motion to someone else off screen to the right to "come on". The three "suits" ("Who are these guys, anyway?") in the foreground walk in front of the camera close together in a probable attempt to shield the handoff from Robert Hughes' filming, and an until-now unseen Latino wearing a dark sport coat and white shirt appears and walks close to BCM. That's "interesting," isn't it. And now for the $64,000 question.... If there was no hand off, then what happened to the rectangular black object that was in his hand before he "punched" BCM? Must have dropped it on the ground? I rest my [explicative deleted] case. Thanks! --Tommy bump edited and bumped --Tommy

??? --Tommy

Agreed. I mentioned a few of those "other film events" which occur in the (un-cropped) Hughes clip in my post #48, this thread. (Not to mention the Rambler station wagon with 1) its headlights on, and 2) another Long Coat Man walking by it in the background.) --Tommy edited and bumped

Agreed. I mentioned a few of those "other film events" which occur in the un-cropped Hughes clip in my immediately-preceding post, #48, this thread. Not to mention the Rambler station wagon with 1) its headlights on, and 2) another Long Coat Man walking by it in the background. --Tommy

I respectfully disagree. (The following observations and comments are based on # One) my "life experiences" (you might want to google "Tommy O'Pepper" right about now), and # Two) my having viewed 1) the cropped, slow-motion version (above), and 2) the un-cropped normal-speed version. Y'all ain't gonna understand what I'm a-talkin' about 'cheer until y'all look at both of them there clips, ya hear?) Blue Coat man, seeing TJM turning to leave, instead of standing still or moving a bit to his right to get out of TJM's way and let him pass by unhindered, actually takes half a step towards TJM and leans towards TJM right as he's passing by. Notice how TJM quickly but gently "punches" BCM in the midsection. I think BCM has opened his jacket pocket, with his out-of-view right hand, for TJM to put the black object into. BCM looks directly at TJM as he's approaching. TJM looked at him just before that and is looking at BCM's midsection during the hand off. Interesting how TJM clenches his teeth. Intense concentration without trying to show it? You also have to take into consideration all the other things going on. Long Coat Man gives a signal to TJM, perhaps even an acknowledgement of having received a signal from TJM), and then everything starts. The black adolescent in the white shirt and tie and long light-colored raincoat (who was looking at Long Coat Man at exactly the same time as TJM was) and the black guys in front of and to the left side of TJM start moving and following TJM, and the black dude in the leather jacket and wearing a cap makes an arm motion to someone else off screen to the right to "come on". The three "suits" ("Who are these guys, anyway?") in the foreground walk in front of the camera close together in a probable attempt to shield the handoff from Robert Hughes' filming, and an until-now unseen (handsome) Latino wearing a dark sportcoat and white shirt appears and walks close to BCM. You say that there is no eye contact between TJM and BCM. Even if your are right, why would eye contact between "professionals" be necessary for a hand off? They do look at each other for a couple of seconds-- TJM looks at BCM's midsection (the handoff target area) through his whole turn, and BCM looks at TJM's face during the whole transaction. You suggest that TJM starts leaving because Long Coat Man shooed them away. Why would LCM do that? Those bystanders weren't interfering with the investigation. Do we see officials shooing bystanders away in any of the other films or photos taken that day? I think the police would have wanted all of the potential witnesses or perps to hang around a bit longer so they could be questioned/interviewed/interrogated. Hey, a helpful bystander might notice something and bring it to the attention of the investigators/searchers. The only incidences of "cops" or "persons of authority" shooing people away after the assassination ("Ya don't come up here now, ya hear? You just might get yourself shot or something") was done by unidentified Mysto-Cops (who also seemed to enjoy kicking people, pointing their guns at them, and taking their cameras. You suggest (and then dismiss) a possible conspiracy scenario which incorporates the "fact" that TJM had been looking for BCM and "found" him in the parking lot. Well, I think TJM knew in advance exactly where to "find" BCM because it was all planned out ahead of time by Professionals with a capital "P" and TJM and BCM (and LCM, etc) were also consummate Professionals as evidenced by their lack of eye contact, the almost undetectable hand off itself, etc. I would have expected nothing less of the "crew" that Angleton and Harvey, through their FBN-based mafia contacts, would employ to hit the most powerful man in the world. And now for the $64,000 question.... If there was no hand off, then what happened to the rectangular black object that was in his hand before he "punched" BCM? I rest my [explicative deleted] case. --Tommy bump

I respectfully disagree. Blue Coat man takes half a step towards TJM and leans towards TJM right as he's passing by. Notice how TJM quickly but gently "punches" BCM in the midsection. I think BCM opens his outside jacket pocket for TJM to put the black object into. BCM looks directly at TJM as he's approaching. TJM looked at him just before that and is looking at BCM's midsection during the hand off. Interesting how TJM clenches his teeth. Intense concentration without trying to show it? You also have to take into consideration all the other things going on. Long Coat Man gives a signal to TJM, perhaps an acknowledgement of having received a signal from TJM), and then everything starts. The black adolescent and the black guys in front of and to the left side of TJM start moving and following TJM, and the black dude in the leather jacket and wearing a cap makes an arm motion to someone else off screen to the right to "come on", the three "suits" in the foreground walk in front of the camera close together in a probable attempt to shield the handoff from Robert Hughes' filming, and an until-now unseen (handsome) Latino wearing a dark sportcoat and white shirt appears and walks close to BCM. You say that there is no eye contact between TJM and BCM. Even if your are right, why would eye contact between "professionals" be necessary for a hand off? They do look at each other but not at exactly the same time. You say TJM starts leaving because Long Coat Man shooed them away. Why would LCM do that? Those bystanders weren't interfering with the investigation. Do we see officials shooing bystanders away in any of the other films or photos taken that day? I think the police would have wanted all of the potential witnesses or perps to hang around a bit longer so they could be questioned/interviewed/interrogated. Hey, a helpful bystander might notice something and bring it to the attention of the investigators/searchers. The only incidences of "cops" or "persons of authority" shooing people away after the assassination ("Ya don't come up here now, ya hear? You just might get yourself shot or something") was done by unidentified Mysto-Cops (who also seemed to enjoy kicking people, pointing their guns at them, and taking their cameras. I think TJM knew in advance exactly where to "find" BCM because it was all planned out ahead of time by professionals and TJM and BCM (and LCM, etc) themselves were consummate professionals as evidenced by their lack of eye contact, the almost undetectable hand off itself, etc, etc. I would have expected nothing less of the "crew" that Angleton and Harvey, through their FBN-based mafia contacts, would employ to hit the most powerful man in the world. You suggest that a possible conspiracy scenario which incorporates the "fact" that TJM had been looking for BCM and "found" him in the parking lot. that And now for the $64,000 question. If there was no hand off, then what happened to the rectangular black object that was in his hand before he "punched" BCM? I rest my [explicative deleted] case. --Tommy

David, Maybe he was one of those American Indian guys who go through life doing everything backwards. You know, like Dustin Hoffman's childhood friend in Little Big Man who became a "Contrary" and did everything backwards in adult life? So maybe Tan Jacket Man was one of those Indian dudes, and instead of taking the other guy's billfold, he gave his to him! Yeah, that's it, he was just one of those Pickpocket Contraries! --Tommy

A professional what? David, he was uhhh..., uhhh... a professional uhhh... pickpocket. Yeah, that's it! He was a pickpocket! --Tommy

You're right. I stand corrected. Good catch. It's virtually impossible to tell what his left hand is doing in the full-speed clip. But in this clip, I don't see an object in his left hand. I see his fingers moving, though. David, He was very good. He was a professional. --Tommy

[...] [quote name='Thomas Graves' date='01 December 2011 - 11:58 PM' timestamp='1322780325' bump and "Out!" I don't see anything in TJM's left hand in the last two frames of the clip. Perhaps some think that you do or actually do see something. Never mind. Someone else can carry the ball on this now if they want to. I feel like I've been trying to lead horses to water but they don't want to drink. Lots of people want to solve the biggest crime of the 20th Century by themselves and try to prevent others from solving it. Too many contrarian geniuses. I'm convinced that Tan Jacket Man either gave a signal to, or got a signal from. Long Coat Man and then handed something off, in a very secretive way, to Blue Coated Cuban-Looking Man. Therefore, IN MY HUMBLE [explicative deleted] OPINION, the synchronous movements of several of the other people in the clip should be analyzed for indications of conspiratorial activity. Darn straight.

Great work, Chris! Well, I guess that proves it. Blue Coated Cuban-Looking Man just didn't like the dope TJM was dealing. Or maybe TJM was getting his car keys out of his pocket a bit early. --Tommy P.S. Could you or John Dolva or somebody please isolate and post the last frame or two? Thanks! P.P.S. Now I've heard it all. "He couldn't have handed him anything because both of his hands were in his pockets." "He didn't pass by the other guy close enough to make a hand off." "He did pass by close enough to make a hand off but he didn't have anything in his hands." "He did pass by close enough and the guy in the blue coat did take a half-step and lean towards him and he did have something in his left hand, but, because there's something dark on his left hand in the last frame, he evidently decided at the last second to keep some of it for himself or to just not give it to the other guy." Give me a break. bump Thomas, The last 2 frames. http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r25/123steamn/1-11.png http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r25/123steamn/2-2.png chris Thanks again, Chris! --Tommy

Great work, Chris! Well, I guess that proves it. Blue Coated Cuban-Looking Man just didn't like the dope TJM was dealing. (Or maybe TJM was getting his car keys out of his pocket early...) Couldn't be the shadows, could it? --Tommy P.S. Could you or John Dolva or somebody please isolate and post the last frame or two? Thanks! P.P.S. I've heard it all now. "He couldn't have handed him anything because both of his hands were in his pockets." "He didn't pass by the other guy close enough to make a hand off." "He did pass by close enough to make a hand off but he didn't have anything in his hands." "He did pass by close enough and the guy in the blue coat did take a half-step and lean towards him and he did have something in his left hand, but, because there's something dark on his left hand in the last frame, he evidently decided at the last second to keep some of it for himself or to just not give it to the other guy." Give me a break. bump Thomas, The last 2 frames. http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r25/123steamn/1-11.png http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r25/123steamn/2-2.png chris Thanks, Chris. Now it's my turn. I don't see anything in his hand. Do you? Just a white "highlight" on his jacket cuff from the sun plus shadows. --Tommy P.S. I'm getting tired of "leading horses to water" lol BTW, Does anyone recognize the Latino-looking guy on the right wearing the dark sports coat and the white shirt (and tie?) ? As Jim Rome says, "I'm OUT."

Great work, Chris! Well, I guess that proves it. Blue Coated Cuban-Looking Man just didn't like the dope TJM was dealing. (Or maybe TJM was getting his car keys out of his pocket early...) Couldn't be the shadows, could it? --Tommy P.S. Could you or John Dolva or somebody please isolate and post the last frame or two? Thanks! P.P.S. I've heard it all now. "He couldn't have handed him anything because both of his hands were in his pockets." "He didn't pass by the other guy close enough to make a hand off." "He did pass by close enough to make a hand off but he didn't have anything in his hands." "He did pass by close enough and he did have something in his left hand, but, because there's something dark (probably a shadow) on his left hand in the last frame, he evidently decided at the last second to keep some of it for himself, or B) to just not give the darn thing to the other guy!!" Would someone please give me a freaking break? Ronnie?? (I didn't think so.) bump

Great work, Chris! Well, I guess that proves it. Blue Coated Cuban-Looking Man just didn't like the dope TJM was dealing. (Or maybe TJM was getting his car keys out of his pocket early...) Couldn't be the shadows, could it? --Tommy P.S. Could you or John Dolva or somebody please isolate and post the last frame or two? Thanks! P.P.S. I've heard it all now. "He couldn't have handed him anything because both of his hands were in his pockets." "He didn't pass by the other guy close enough to make a hand off." "He did pass by close enough to make a hand off but he didn't have anything in his hands." "He did pass by close enough and he did have something in his left hand, but he decided at the last second not to give it to the other guy." Give me a freaking break.

Full Thread Here. Hatless Policeman Note Long Coat Man's head doing a Linda Blair move on the right. You know, The Exorcist? --Tommy

You're right, Ray. The guy in the blue jacket takes a half step to his left and leans towards Tan Jacket Man. Wes Riddle on the JFK Assassination Forum thinks Tan Jacket Man put something in Blue Coated Cuban-Looking Man's jacket pocket. These guys were professionals. The more I look at this clip, especially the un-cropped versions, the more I see an intricately-choreographed ballet being performed with by many "dancers". It's interesting to watch all of the people who go into motion when Long Coat Man gives Tan Jacket Man "the signal". Even the three guys walking from right to left in the foreground as they very nearly block Robert Hughes' camera's view of "the hand off". Etc, etc --Tommy Tommy Blue jacket/white slacks is seen in other films .I think it starts with a signal from the cop.Do you know who shot this film?. Ian, Yes. It was shot by Robert Hughes. I wish I knew how to post the slow motion/freeze frame version, but I'm technologically disadvantaged. You can view it by clicking on the links I've posted in some of my earlier posts on this thread, above. Maybe John Dolva or Chris Davidson or somebody can post the slow motion/freeze frame version here? The same scene is shown on YouTube at normal speed but un-cropped format. That's where you get an idea of the intricate ballet involving lots of people taking place. The Long Coat Man (the "cop") gives Tan Jacket Man a signal that puts TJM and several others in "action mode". Or maybe TJM gives Long Coat Man a signal and Long Coat Man's acknowledgement of it puts everyone in motion? --Tommy Thomas, Here's the entire footage. Give it time to load/play, it is a huge gif. http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r25/123steamn/Untitled1-3.gif I've slowed it down and stabilized it, somewhat. Once again, please look at the last frame. I have inserted a red arrow pointing to what appears to be a black object near or in his left hand. chris Great work, Chris! Well, I guess that proves it. Blue Coated Cuban-Looking Man just didn't like the dope TJM was dealing. (Or maybe TJM was getting his car keys out of his pocket early...) Couldn't be the shadows, could it? --Tommy P.S. Could you or John Dolva or somebody please isolate and post the last frame or two? Thanks!

Bernice, That's strange. I just now tried them again and they work for me. Hmmm... You can always go to Sean Murphy's 2/16/11 post at the JFK Assassination Forum on the thread entitled "Hughes Parking-Lot Man In Bell Film?" and Gerda Dunkel's 2/19/11 post on that same thread. --Tommy aka Tommy O'Pepper (Gotta plug my novel-in-progress you know. LOL)

David, That's what I was thinking... --Tommy I.D.?. as in dump'n'run ?. Sorry Ian, What do mean? Like Robert De Palma in The Godfather? LOL Well, if it was a rifle magazine (with special rounds in it and with his fingerprints on it), it makes sense that he wouldn't have wanted to leave it at the scene of the crime. Nor would he have wanted to be carrying around such a "hot item" on his person for any longer than necessary... --Tommy

David, That's what I was thinking... --Tommy

I think he was off by a couple of thousand miles. What better place to plan the assassination than poolside at the Hotel Del Charro in beautiful La Jolla, California? --Tommy

You're right, Ray. The guy in the blue jacket takes a half step to his left and leans towards Tan Jacket Man. Wes Riddle on the JFK Assassination Forum thinks Tan Jacket Man put something in Blue Coated Cuban-Looking Man's jacket pocket. These guys were professionals. The more I look at this clip, especially the un-cropped versions, the more I see an intricately-choreographed ballet being performed with by many "dancers". It's interesting to watch all of the people who go into motion when Long Coat Man gives Tan Jacket Man "the signal". Even the three guys walking from right to left in the foreground as they very nearly block Robert Hughes' camera's view of "the hand off". Etc, etc --Tommy Tommy Blue jacket/white slacks is seen in other films .I think it starts with a signal from the cop.Do you know who shot this film?. Ian, Yes. It was shot by Robert Hughes. I wish I knew how to post the slow motion/freeze frame version, but I'm technologically disadvantaged. You can view it by clicking on the links I've posted in some of my earlier posts on this thread, above. Maybe John Dolva or Chris Davidson or somebody can post the slow motion/freeze frame version here? The same scene is shown on YouTube at normal speed but un-cropped format. That's where you get an idea of the intricate ballet involving lots of people taking place. The Long Coat Man (the "cop") gives Tan Jacket Man a signal that puts TJM and several others in "action mode". Or maybe TJM gives Long Coat Man a signal and Long Coat Man's acknowledgement of it puts everyone in motion? --Tommy

uh, not so much Franz... While I appreciate the imagery... ADDING WATER changes the original pixels to such an extent that they are REPLACED by other REAL pixels that can now bleed thru and be seen This is NOT the process you are describing... no matter how many interations you go thru you will NEVER be able to "remove" a layer of clothing on a photo and depict what is REALLY there... but only what the original pixels SUGGEST is there and how the math makes up the difference... you've CREATED a new image Franz... not enhanced the old one. Tell you what then Franz... since you believe your process is similiar to the wet Tshirt example... Use your process to tell us what is holding the bag up... what is Montgomery holding in his had that extends into the bag and keeps it upright... thanks A scoped Johnson 30.06? --Tommy

Ron, Have you looked at it in slow motion or "freeze frame" yet? A friend of mine who was NSA near the Czechoslovakia border with Germany in the 70's and therefore had to learn tradecraft at Camp Perry (so he'd know if he was being watched/followed etc when he was away from "the facility") looked at it in slow motion and he says there definitely was a hand off. But I already knew that, anyway, from my own viewing of the clip in slow motion/freeze frame. He just confirmed it for me. --Tommy