Thomas Graves

_________________________ James, OMG! Seriously! Same height (6'3"), same swarthy complexion, same hair, same athletic build, same facial structure (in profile), etc! Holy Cow, James-- I think you got him! Sincerely, --Thomas _________________________

__________________________ Dear Mr. Scull, What's with the "Bilbo" manure? Why do you feel that you have to insult people with whom you disagree, in this case Bill Miller? Is it your way of "defending yourself?" Why do you feel that you have to "defend" yourself? Do have a tendency to always presume that you are being attacked personally when someone disagrees with what you say? Why do you always think that people who disagree with you are attacking you personally? Were you traumatized as a child? Did the other kids taunt you unmercifully? If so, I'm very sorry and I hope that you eventually get over it. In my humble opinion, you are the most offensive and offensive person on this forum... I've gotten to the point that I don't even want to read your posts any longer simply because you are so vindictive and full of vitriol and you seem to need to vent your emotions on people with whom you disagree. How immature. It's a pity because you probably do make a good point from time to time, but who needs the aggravation and the stress? I wish a moderator other than the mild-mannered and ever-so-diplomatic K.B. would censure you or at least give you a severe warning that your past behavior will not be tolerated on this forum in the future.... (Deleted _ _ _) Sympathetically, --Thomas __________________________

_____________________________ JW (and James), I really appreciate all of your input on this thread! Speaking just for myself, I can definitely see a luggage rack on top of the putative '55 Chevy station wagon parked in front of the Paine's house in James' post #37. I hereby issue a plea to all photograph analysis-inclined researchers-- If you haven't already done so, after enlarging the image, please put your face about eight inches from the monitor screen and look really closely for the luggage rack to which I'm referring. (Seriously; no disrespect intended) It (the luggage rack) is dark in color, runs five or six inches above and is parallel with the top of the station wagon's roof. The dead giveaway, however, is the fact that it curves downwards to meet the roof on the far right hand side, and therefore, in my humble opinion, should not be interpreted as some sort of ornamental horizontal line on the front/facade of the house behind it. In other words, it doesn't make sense that a horizontal line on the front of the house would be curved like that near any corner of the house, especially the most-noticeable corner of the house nearest the front door. That, and the fact that the horizontal line in question curves in such a way as to meet the very back of the station wagon's roof tells me that it must be a luggage rack, and therefore that either 1) Detective Craig simply mistook Ruth Paine's (luggage-racked and therefore rare) '55 Chevy station wagon for the traditionally luggage-racked (later model?) Rambler station wagon due to the fact that, as I inferred from your (JWK's) most recent post this thread, that very very few '55 Chevy station wagons even had a luggage rack, or 2) that Detective Craig actually did see LHO get into someone else's (Clay Shaw's '62?) Rambler station wagon (with luggage rack) on Elm Street. Regardless, I am absolutely fascinated by Detective's Craig's claim that LHO, while being interrogated by Captain Fritz, said in response to Fritz's statement, "This man (Craig) saw you leave in a car" (in so many words-- I'm working off memory here), "You leave Mrs. Paine's station wagon (her '55 Chevy station wagon") out of this. She wasn't involved in this thing." Then LHO said self-disgustedly and with a sense of resignation (according to Craig), "Everyone will know who I am now." There are several critical (in my humble opinion) questions to be addressed here: Why in the world was LHO so emotionally intent on trying to divert Fritz's attention away from Ruth Paine in "this thing?" Why did LHO automatically assume that when Fritz mentioned the word "car" that he was referring to Ruth Paine's '55 Chevy station wagon? Did LHO suddenly think that he had somehow "let the cat out of the bag" as to his true role(s)/identities in "this thing" (double agent; triple agent, quadruple agent, role-playing "patsy"?) when he said (evidently without thinking), "Leave Mrs. Paine's station wagon out of this. She didn't have anything to do with this thing." And then, with a deep sense of resignation, "Everyone will know who I am now." Fascinating stuff indeed...... Thanks --Thomas P.S. Thanks for the feedback on the other vehicle in the photo, JW. I was wondering if it might be Michael Paine's Oldsmobile.... ______________________________ ______________________ Improved, expanded and bumped.... ______________________ ___________________ James? Bernice? JWK? Lee? Robin? John D? Larry? Mr. Simkin? ........... ___________________

_____________________________ JW (and James), I really appreciate all of your input on this thread! Speaking just for myself, I can definitely see a luggage rack on top of the putative '55 Chevy station wagon parked in front of the Paine's house in James' post #37. I hereby issue a plea to all photograph analysis-inclined researchers-- If you haven't already done so, after enlarging the image, please put your face about eight inches from the monitor screen and look really closely for the luggage rack to which I'm referring. (Seriously; no disrespect intended) It (the luggage rack) is dark in color, runs five or six inches above and is parallel with the top of the station wagon's roof. The dead giveaway, however, is the fact that it curves downwards to meet the roof on the far right hand side, and therefore, in my humble opinion, should not be interpreted as some sort of ornamental horizontal line on the front/facade of the house behind it. In other words, it doesn't make sense that a horizontal line on the front of the house would be curved like that near any corner of the house, especially the most-noticeable corner of the house nearest the front door. That, and the fact that the horizontal line in question curves in such a way as to meet the very back of the station wagon's roof tells me that it must be a luggage rack, and therefore that either 1) Detective Craig simply mistook Ruth Paine's (luggage-racked and therefore rare) '55 Chevy station wagon for the traditionally luggage-racked (later model?) Rambler station wagon due to the fact that, as I inferred from your (JWK's) most recent post this thread, that very very few '55 Chevy station wagons even had a luggage rack, or 2) that Detective Craig actually did see LHO get into someone else's (Clay Shaw's '62?) Rambler station wagon (with luggage rack) on Elm Street. Regardless, I am absolutely fascinated by Detective's Craig's claim that LHO, while being interrogated by Captain Fritz, said in response to Fritz's statement, "This man (Craig) saw you leave in a car." To which LHO eventually replied (in so many words-- I'm working off memory here), "You leave Mrs. Paine's station wagon (her '55 Chevy station wagon") out of this. She wasn't involved in this thing." Then LHO said self-disgustedly and with a sense of resignation (according to Craig), "Everyone will know who I am now." There are several critical (in my humble opinion) questions to be addressed here: Why in the world was LHO so emotionally intent on trying to divert Fritz's attention away from Ruth Paine in "this thing?" Why did LHO automatically assume that when Fritz mentioned the word "car" that he was referring to Ruth Paine's '55 Chevy station wagon? Did LHO suddenly think or realize (two different things altogether) that he had somehow "let the cat out of the bag" as to his true role(s)/identities in "this thing" (double agent; triple agent, quadruple agent, role-playing "patsy"?) when he said (evidently quite emotionally and without thinking), "Leave Mrs. Paine out of this. She didn't have anything to do with this thing." Fascinating stuff which I think still needs to be addressed.... Thanks --Thomas P.S. Thanks for the feedback on the other vehicle in the photo, JW. I was wondering if it might be Michael Paine's Oldsmobile.... ______________________________ ______________________ Improved, expanded and bumped.... ______________________ ___________________ James? JWK? Lee? John D? Anyone (except the "PB Boy")? ___________________

Well said, Ken. If people like Scull, if that is who he really is, would spend a fraction of the time he wastes trolling the forum and would actually read all the evidence before posting, then perhaps one could at least take him seriously rather than just some kook looking for attention. _____________________________ Bill, I agree. Although I don't condone the tone and tenor of your past exchanges with Jack White, they do tend to pale in comparison to the vitriol vented on you recently by a certain individual, who seems to relish posting silly, mocking emoticons like this-- -- over and over again as if he thinks they somehow "put you down" or somehow buttress his hard-to-follow arguments in the "Close-up of Duncan McRae's Knoll Shooter" thread. How juvenile to post silly faces like that over and over again. One can only wonder if he didn't learn such behavior from some of his more immature students. You know, the ones who sat in the back of the room and shot "spit wads" at each other.... Like you, I believe Hoffman. I think that a deaf person like Hoffman would be a more believable/credible eyewitness than a "normal" sighted person simply because a deaf person, in order to survive on a day-to-day basis in a world of fast-moving cars, etc, must hone his or her visual skills to compensate for his or her inability to hear. It is obvious to anyone who watches TMWKK on http://www.youtube.com that Hoffman raised a family, and a fairly well-to-do-looking family at that, which is a lot more than be said for a lot of people who have all of their faculties, so he must have been a pretty darn normal guy psychologically.... But for some reason, certain people on this forum (and others as well, I suppose) want to make him out as some kind of weird, yarn-spinning miscreant. All I can say is that I trust Hoffman much more than the people who attack him and his testimony/statements.... Keep up the good work, --Thomas _____________________________

__________________________ Lee, That largish, longish, whitish, nearly-vertical "thing" blocking our view of the left leg of the guy standing to the left of the tall dark-complected dude is interesting. Any idea as to what that white thing was? Thanks. --Thomas __________________________

_____________________________ JW (and James), I really appreciate all of your input on this thread! Speaking just for myself, I can definitely see a luggage rack on top of the putative '55 Chevy station wagon parked in front of the Paine's house in James' post #37. I hereby issue a plea to all photograph analysis-inclined researchers-- If you haven't already done so, after enlarging the image, please put your face about eight inches from the monitor screen and look really closely for the luggage rack to which I'm referring. (Seriously; no disrespect intended) It (the luggage rack) is dark in color, runs five or six inches above and is parallel with the top of the station wagon's roof. The dead giveaway, however, is the fact that it curves downwards to meet the roof on the far right hand side, and therefore, in my humble opinion, should not be interpreted as some sort of ornamental horizontal line on the front/facade of the house behind it. In other words, it doesn't make sense that a horizontal line on the front of the house would be curved like that near any corner of the house, especially the most-noticeable corner of the house nearest the front door. That, and the fact that the horizontal line in question curves in such a way as to meet the very back of the station wagon's roof tells me that it must be a luggage rack, and therefore that either 1) Detective Craig simply mistook Ruth Paine's (luggage-racked and therefore rare) '55 Chevy station wagon for the traditionally luggage-racked (later model?) Rambler station wagon due to the fact that, as I inferred from your (JWK's) most recent post this thread, that very very few '55 Chevy station wagons even had a luggage rack, or 2) that Detective Craig actually did see LHO get into someone else's (Clay Shaw's '62?) Rambler station wagon (with luggage rack) on Elm Street. Regardless, I am absolutely fascinated by Detective's Craig's claim that LHO, while being interrogated by Captain Fritz, said in response to Fritz's statement, "This man (Craig) saw you leave in a car." To which LHO eventually replied (in so many words-- I'm working off memory here), "You leave Mrs. Paine's station wagon (her '55 Chevy station wagon") out of this. She wasn't involved in this thing." Then LHO said self-disgustedly and with a sense of resignation (according to Craig), "Everyone will know who I am now." There are several critical (in my humble opinion) questions to be addressed here: Why in the world was LHO so emotionally intent on trying to divert Fritz's attention away from Ruth Paine in "this thing?" Why did LHO automatically assume that when Fritz mentioned the word "car" that he was referring to Ruth Paine's '55 Chevy station wagon? Did LHO suddenly think or realize (two different things altogether) that he had somehow "let the cat out of the bag" as to his true role(s)/identities in "this thing" (double agent; triple agent, quadruple agent, role-playing "patsy"?) when he said (evidently quite emotionally and without thinking), "Leave Mrs. Paine out of this. She didn't have anything to do with this thing." Fascinating stuff which I think still needs to be addressed.... Thanks --Thomas P.S. Thanks for the feedback on the other vehicle in the photo, JW. I was wondering if it might be Michael Paine's Oldsmobile.... ______________________________ ______________________ Improved, expanded and bumped.... ______________________

_____________________________ JW (and James), I really appreciate all of your input on this thread! Speaking just for myself, I can definitely see a luggage rack on top of the putative '55 Chevy station wagon parked in front of the Paine's house in James' post #37. Therefore, I am hereby issuing a plea to all photograph analysis-inclined researchers-- If you haven't already done so, after enlarging the image, please put your face about eight inches from the monitor screen and look really closely for the luggage rack to which I'm referring. (Seriously; no disrespect intended) It (the luggage rack) is dark in color, runs five or six inches above AND parallel with the top of the station wagon's roof. The dead giveaway for me, however, is the fact that its far right end is CURVED downwards where it meets the back end of the vehicle's roof, and therefore cannot/should not be misinterpreted as some sort of horizontal line on the front of the house behind it. IOW, it doesn't make sense that a (hypothetical) horizontal line on the front of the house would be CURVED near any corner of the house, especially the most-noticeable corner of the house nearest the front door. That, and the fact that the horizontal line in question curves in such a way as to meet the very back of the station wagon's roof tells me that it must be a luggage rack, and therefore that either 1) Detective Craig simply mistook Ruth Paine's (luggage-racked and therefore rare) '55 Chevy station wagon for the traditionally luggage-racked (later model?) Rambler station wagon due to the fact that, as I inferred from your (JWK's) most recent post this thread, that very very few '55 Chevy station wagons even had a luggage rack, or 2) that Detective Craig actually did see LHO get into someone else's (Clay Shaw's '62?) Rambler station wagon (with luggage rack) on Elm Street. Regardless, I am absolutely fascinated by Detective's Craig's claim that LHO, while being interrogated by Captain Fritz, said in response to Fritz's statement, "This man (Craig) saw you leave in a car." To which LHO replied (in so many words-- I'm working off memory here), "You leave Mrs. Paine's station wagon (her '55 Chevy station wagon") out of this. She wasn't involved in this thing." Then LHO said self-disgustedly and with a sense of resignation (according to Craig), "Everyone will know who I am now." There are several critical (in my humble opinion) questions to be addressed here: Why in the world was LHO so emotionally intent on trying to divert Fritz's attention away from Ruth Paine in "this thing?" Why did LHO automatically assume that when Fritz mentioned the word "car" that he was referring to Ruth Paine's '55 Chevy station wagon? Did LHO suddenly realize that he had "let the cat out of the bag" as to his true role(s)/identities in "this thing" (double agent; triple agent, quadruple agent, role-playing "patsy"?) when he said (evidently quite emotionally and without thinking), "Leave Mrs. Paine out of this. She didn't have anything to do with this thing." Thanks --Thomas P.S. Thanks for the feedback on the other vehicle in the photo, JW. I was wondering if it might be Michael Paine's Oldsmobile.... ______________________________

Ed Hoffman was specific about the hat. In the MWKK interview ... Ed demonstrated how the guy straightened his coat and adjusted his hat as he walked east along the fence. The head seen in the Zapruder film is Emmett Hudson's as Emmett stood on the steps going from the walkway above the knoll and leading down to the street. Bill _________________________________ Thanks again, Bill. To your knowledge, were there any other eyewitnesses besides Ed Hoffman who saw a shooter, wearing a hat, standing behind the fence at the time of the shooting (or immediately after it)? Just curious. Thanks, --Thomas _________________________________

I'm not sure that I follow your intent, but I guess it all lies with the individual researcher to decide just how interested is he or she in actually knowing what is and isn't there. The Museum isn't going to scan Moorman's photo to post on the Internet ... least ways I cannot see that happening. They do invite researchers to come to the Museum to view the materials they have on hand there. This would be done by appointment, which seems only reasonable. Those who are not that eager to spend any of their own time and money to go there really don't have much to complain about IMO. The Hat Man issue is interesting because such an individual was seen at the fence when a shot was heard from that location, along with a cloud of smoke being propelled through the trees." Josiah Thompson also went to Moorman's location to see if there was anything in the RR yard that could account for the "fedora" shape in Mary's photo and Josiah discovered there was not anything there and that what ever was there in Moorman's photo was only at that location during the assassination. Bill Hatman is talking through his hat? Mercy. ___________________________________ Bill, Interesting post I didn't realize that such an individual (wearing a hat) had been "seen at the fence when a shot was heard from that location." Seen by whom, specifically? Thanks, --Thomas ___________________________________ Thomas, Bowers mentioned the heavy set guy up by the fence when the shots rang out. Bowers got cut off by the Commission, but Mark Lane interviewed him and Bowers added that he saw a flash of light or smoke or something unusual at the fence as the President passed below. Ed Hoffman also saw this guy and said that he saw what looked like a puff of smoke come from this location while a man in a hat and suit had turned away from the fence holding a long gun. The man in that hat can be seen in Moorman's photo and in the Willis photo. See Groden's enlargement of the Willis photo in "The killing of a President". The figure is right in the corner and he blocks out the skylight behind him. This would be the same location that Sam Holland said he had heard a shot from just prior to seeing the smoke come through the trees. Bill __________________________ Bill, Thanks. Since I don't doubt that a gunman was at that location, I guess I should have worded my question differently-- "Who claimed that they'd seen someone standing there wearing a hat? Thanks, --Thomas P.S. Is this the same hat we can see (from behind) in Z-412, Z-413, and Z-414? _________________________

I'm not sure that I follow your intent, but I guess it all lies with the individual researcher to decide just how interested is he or she in actually knowing what is and isn't there. The Museum isn't going to scan Moorman's photo to post on the Internet ... least ways I cannot see that happening. They do invite researchers to come to the Museum to view the materials they have on hand there. This would be done by appointment, which seems only reasonable. Those who are not that eager to spend any of their own time and money to go there really don't have much to complain about IMO. The Hat Man issue is interesting because such an individual was seen at the fence when a shot was heard from that location, along with a cloud of smoke being propelled through the trees." Josiah Thompson also went to Moorman's location to see if there was anything in the RR yard that could account for the "fedora" shape in Mary's photo and Josiah discovered there was not anything there and that what ever was there in Moorman's photo was only at that location during the assassination. Bill Hatman is talking through his hat? Mercy. ___________________________________ Bill, Interesting post I didn't realize that such an individual (wearing a hat) had been "seen at the fence when a shot was heard from that location." Seen by whom, specifically? Thanks, --Thomas ___________________________________ Thomas, Bowers mentioned the heavy set guy up by the fence when the shots rang out. Bowers got cut off by the Commission, but Mark Lane interviewed him and Bowers added that he saw a flash of light or smoke or something unusual at the fence as the President passed below. Ed Hoffman also saw this guy and said that he saw what looked like a puff of smoke come from this location while a man in a hat and suit had turned away from the fence holding a long gun. The man in that hat can be seen in Moorman's photo and in the Willis photo. See Groden's enlargement of the Willis photo in "The killing of a President". The figure is right in the corner and he blocks out the skylight behind him. This would be the same location that Sam Holland said he had heard a shot from just prior to seeing the smoke come through the trees. Bill __________________________ Bill, Thanks. Since I don't doubt that a gunman was at that location, I guess I should have worded my question differently-- "Who claimed that they'd seen someone standing there wearing a hat? Thanks, --Thomas _________________________

I'm not sure that I follow your intent, but I guess it all lies with the individual researcher to decide just how interested is he or she in actually knowing what is and isn't there. The Museum isn't going to scan Moorman's photo to post on the Internet ... least ways I cannot see that happening. They do invite researchers to come to the Museum to view the materials they have on hand there. This would be done by appointment, which seems only reasonable. Those who are not that eager to spend any of their own time and money to go there really don't have much to complain about IMO. The Hat Man issue is interesting because such an individual was seen at the fence when a shot was heard from that location, along with a cloud of smoke being propelled through the trees." Josiah Thompson also went to Moorman's location to see if there was anything in the RR yard that could account for the "fedora" shape in Mary's photo and Josiah discovered there was not anything there and that what ever was there in Moorman's photo was only at that location during the assassination. Bill Hatman is talking through his hat? Mercy. ___________________________________ Bill, Interesting post I didn't realize that such an individual (wearing a hat) had been "seen at the fence when a shot was heard from that location." Seen by whom, specifically? Thanks, --Thomas ___________________________________

__________________________ Regarding image "E" (and "A") in "Photo 2," post #1, does anyone know where the photo/footage was taken (in the Dallas Police Headquarters?) and why Lovelady was sitting there? Had he been brought in as a witness? If so, were there other witnesses sitting/standing near Lovelady, or was he the only one right then right there? Interesting that when LHO is filmed passing through a hallway (?) being taken in to Fritz's office (?), he passes right by the sitting Lovelady.... Thanks, --Thomas _________________________

____________________________ I nominate.... ____________________________

__________________________ Yep. And when you enlarge it and look very closely, it sure as h--- looks like it has a luggage rack on top.... Darn, you're good James! Thanks! --Thomas P.S. Any idea when the photo was taken? P.S.S. JWK, do you agree that that station wagon is a '55 Chevy? __________________________

____________________________ Thanks, JW. Looks light blue to me. Did the Paines have it painted blue? Michael owned a blue and white 1956 Oldsmobile sedan. Can anyone post a photo of that car or one like it? Thanks, --Thomas ____________________________ Just ask, and ye shall receive.... As for the color of the station wagon, it may have been one of those aqua colored cars that faded. I used to have an aqua '58 T-Bird that would look either blue, or green, depending on the eye of the beholder. JWK _________________________ Thanks, JW. Great stuff. (BTW, nice-looking car too...) To your knowledge, did any '55 Chevy station wagons have a luggage rack? The reason I ask is because Roger Craig said, in so many words, that he thought the station wagon in question (the one he saw LHO get into) was a Nash Rambler because it had a luggage rack. Do you think he could have mistaken Ruth's '55 Chevy station wagon for a Nash Rambler station wagon (with a luggage rack)? Do you (or anyone else on the forum) know whether Ruth's station wagon had a luggage rack? If it didn't, then I think Craig must have seen LHO get into someone else's vehicle (probably a Nash Rambler station wagon).... Thanks, --Thomas _________________________ Thomas, I really don't know if they came from the factory with a luggage rack or not. Probably not, but I imagine they were a popular aftermarket (or dealer installed) addition. I'm guessing Mrs. Paine's car looked very similar to the photo below (minus the red wheels).... Roger Craig was an active and trained police officer, and I doubt very much if he would have mistaken a '55 Chevy wagon for a later model Rambler. I'm not sure why simply having a luggage rack would tell him it was a Rambler as he states, however. I'll keep digging through some old car ads and photos I have here. JWK _________________________ Thanks for the input, JW. I'm looking forward to seeing the image you're referring to when you say, "I'm guessing Mrs. Paine's car looked very similar to the photo below (minus the red wheels).... ." Thanks, --Thomas _________________________

____________________________ Thanks, JW. Looks light blue to me. Did the Paines have it painted blue? Michael owned a blue and white 1956 Oldsmobile sedan. Can anyone post a photo of that car or one like it? Thanks, --Thomas ____________________________ Just ask, and ye shall receive.... As for the color of the station wagon, it may have been one of those aqua colored cars that faded. I used to have an aqua '58 T-Bird that would look either blue, or green, depending on the eye of the beholder. JWK _________________________ Thanks, JW. Great stuff. (BTW, nice-looking car too...) To your knowledge, did any '55 Chevy station wagons have a luggage rack? The reason I ask is because Roger Craig said, in so many words, that he thought the station wagon in question (the one he saw LHO get into) was a Nash Rambler because it had a luggage rack. Do you think he could have mistaken Ruth's '55 Chevy station wagon for a Nash Rambler station wagon (with a luggage rack)? Do you (or anyone else on the forum) know whether Ruth's station wagon had a luggage rack? If it didn't, then I think Craig must have seen LHO get into someone else's vehicle (probably a Nash Rambler station wagon).... Thanks, --Thomas _________________________

_______________________________ A planned assassination attempt on JFK from an overpass. Hmm... Now that sounds familiar.... --Thomas _______________________________

______________________________ Myra, I agree with you. It's Lovelady. --Thomas ______________________________

____________________________ Hi Robert, Thanks for that juicy little tidbit! Does anyone know what color Shaw's '62 Rambler station wagon was? Is there any way to find out based on the license plate number (if that's what "M#H171787" represents)? I wonder why a wealthy, "classy," stylish, cultured dude like Shaw would even own a "cheap and ugly" car like a Rambler station wagon? For "slumming" purposes? For transporting arms and materiel? For lending to Ferrie for duck-hunting expeditions? Probably all of the above. lol Thanks, --Thomas ____________________________

____________________________ Thanks, JW. Looks light blue rather than green to me. Does anyone know whether or not the Paines had it painted blue? (I rather doubt it, but I guess it is a possibility. I am aware of the fact that Ruth testified to the WC that her station wagon was green and need a paint job, so maybe they did have it painted light blue....) Also, did Ruth's '55 Chevy station wagon have a luggage rack on top near the rear? Does anyone know if there are other photos of her station wagon which show more of the vehicle than just the front right quarter or so? Michael owned a blue and white 1956 Oldsmobile sedan. Can anyone please post a photo of that car or one like it? Thanks, --Thomas ____________________________ topical bump _______________________________________ regarding the topic Ruth Paine's Station Wagon.... _______________________________________

____________________________ Thanks, JW. Looks light blue rather than green to me. Did the Paines have it painted blue? Also, did Ruth's '55 Chevy station wagon have a luggage rack on top near the rear? Michael owned a blue and white 1956 Oldsmobile sedan. Can anyone post a photo of that car or one like it? Thanks, --Thomas ____________________________ topical bump ____________________________

FYI, below I've posted all(?) of the entries about Roger Craig to be found in, I guess, most places, from Walt Brown's Global Index to the JFK Assassination. Other citations were also found to other people relative to "station wagon," also below). Some general observations about all of this: first, that there seem to be enough "independent" observations of a station wagon or a car that a man was (or men were) seen getting into almost immediately after the shooting that lends credence to the possibility since if there were shooters in the plaza area - including LHO or not - they had to get away from the area somehow, or else they had to blend into the crowd fairly effectively (Mooney's "plainclothes officers like me" being a case in point). I quote "independent" because you sometimes have to wonder how many people - especially those cited by authors - actually saw something, vice how many "remembered" it later after having read about it elsewhere ... not to mention how many people may have made up the story they told! If there were time for DCM to have gone into the parking lot and later driven a car out to pick up a man or men depends upon how long after the shooting the cars/men were seen (e.g., where was DCM at the time of the photo of the Rambler wagon at least partially obscured by the bus?). I've never traced his movements, so have no idea. More to the point is the testimony of James Romack (6H277-84), who came to the WC's attention at about the time James Worrell was leaving (with Robert Jackson, Amos Euins and someone else whose name I've momentarily forgotten) to go to DC to testify. It seems that Romack had been working at a freight terminal behind the TSBD - along with George "Pop" Rackley, Virgie's father (6H273-77)- and had "stationed" himself in a position where he could see the back of the building "at all times." He testified that he was watching the back and side of the building and saw nobody running from it at any time. A couple of caveats to that testimony, however, are that he did, at one point, move from his "station" to remove the barricade on Houston St to allow Sam Pate to get his KBOX radio car out of the road construction zone back there, that being a point in time where his attention was directed away from the TSBD (Sam parked behind the TSBD, and on alighting did see someone running across Houston St from the direction of the SE corner/east side of the TSBD); and also that he was not asked - nor did he volunteer - anything about any vehicles in the area. It is noted that Romack's entire testimony was intended - by his own admission - to discredit the "xxxx" that he thought Worrell was, and so focused mainly if not solely upon someone running from the side entrance. Neither his nor Rackley's testimony, to the best of my offhand recollection, had any discussion about other vehicles or persons in the area. Other citations: For "station wagon" see: James Pennington (p.189 in Kurtz, Crime of the Century) who it is said corroborated Craig's claim of LHO getting into a station wagon, as well as Marvin Robinson (driver on Elm Street who witnessed a man run from the Depository and enter a late model Rambler station wagon (32 in Anson, They've Killed the President; 73-74 in DiEugenio, Destiny Betrayed; 119-120 in Hurt, Reasonable Doubt; 132 in Kurtz, Crime of the Century; 110 in Moscovit, Did Castro Kill Kennedy?; 14 in Shaw and Harris, Cover-Up; 242 in Thompson, Six Seconds in Dallas) and Richard Robinson (motorist who witnessed a man run from the Depository and enter a late model Rambler station wagon; may be the same person as Marvin Robinson, cited above), 387 in North, Act of Treason), Helen Forrest (saw a man run from the rear of the TSBD, down the incline, and get into a Rambler; if not Oswald, his twin, according to Mrs. James Forrest: 132, 135, 221, 225 in Kurtz, Crime of the Century; 110 in Moscovit, Did Castro Kill Kennedy?), Glenn Smith (accountant privy to an "Oswald" gun transaction, had actually driven a Russian-speaking woman three times to 2515 W 5th St, Irving after servicing her station wagon: 352 in Brown, Warren Omission; 357-358 in Meagher, Accessories After the Fact; Warren Commission 26 Volumes: noting that vehicle involved was a 1953 or 1954 Plymouth or Chevrolet station wagon, X, 403; TESTIMONY OF, X, 399-405; House Select Committee 12 Volumes: XII, 286-287). Also(?), Richard Randolph Carr (Dealey Plaza eyewitness, had commanding vantage point in building under construction south of Elm Street: 32 in Anson, They've Killed the President; 395-399 in Brown, People v. Lee Harvey Oswald; 61, 67 in Crenshaw, Conspiracy of Silence; 412 in Davis, Mafia Kingfish; 43, 177-180, 235n, 243n in Garrison, Heritage of Stone; 95-96, 238-239, 281 in Garrison, On the Trail of the Assassins; 121 in Groden and Livingstone, High Treason; 62, 143 in Groden, The Killing of a President; 119-120 in Hurt, Reasonable Doubt; 64, 86, 88 in Jones, Forgive My Grief III; 351-353, 458 in Kirkwood, American Grotesque; 131-132 in Kurtz, Crime of the Century; 21, 318-319 in Marrs, Crossfire; 23 in Menninger, Mortal Error; 387 in North, Act of Treason; 37, 185 in Sample, Men on the Sixth Floor; 12-14, 64, 182 in Shaw and Harris, Cover-Up; 88, 90 in Smith, Second Plot; 241-242, 244, 256 in Thompson, Six Seconds in Dallas; House Select Committee 12 Volumes: XII, 8-9, 22). Craig, Roger, (Sheriff's Deputy standing on Main Street when the shots were fired at JFK's limousine; Craig's place in the narrative is unique, and the authors cited only begin to flesh out his story; as is true in too many cases, this seminal figure in the JFK tragedy died, oddly, very young), 77n, 217 in 179, Anson, They've Killed the President; 495-498, 571, 577 in Brown, People v. Lee Harvey Oswald; 35, 130, 145, 149, 160, 243, 300 in Brown, Treachery in Dallas; 142, 206, 280, 308-309 in Brown, Warren Omission; 189 in Davis, Mafia Kingfish; 74 in DiEugenio, Destiny Betrayed; 95 in Epstein, Inquest; 440-443 in Fensterwald, Coincidence or Conspiracy? 94-96, 98, 194, 202, 204- 205, 239, 273-274, 281, 326-327 in Garrison, On the Trail of the Assassins; 114, 121, 123-124, 161-162 in Groden and Livingstone, High Treason; 62, 64 in Groden, The Killing of a President; 118, 160, 245 in Groden, Search for Lee Harvey Oswald; 348 in Hepburn, Farewell America; 102, 120-121, 123, 125, 400, 413 in Hurt, Reasonable Doubt; 25, 29-31, 33-35, 67, 74 in Jones, Forgive My Grief, I; 15, 29-31, 33-37, 64, 79-80, 86-88, 90, 93 in Jones, Forgive My Grief III; 31, 33, 148-149 in Jones, Forgive My Grief IV; 325-326, 458 in Kirkwood, American Grotesque; 9, 19, 122, 127, 130-133, 195 in Kurtz, Crime of the Century; 18, 96, 98, 173-174, 384 in Lane, Rush to Judgment; 20, 328- 333 in Marrs, Crossfire; xxxvi, 59 in Meagher, Accessories After the Fact; 110-111 in Melanson, Spy Saga; 279-281 in Model and Groden, JFK: Case For Conspiracy; 110, 119, 211, 213 in Moscovit, Did Castro Kill Kennedy? 12, 20 in Palamara, Third Alternative; 90-91, 95, 105, 171, 173 in Popkin, The Second Oswald; 259, 446 in Posner, Case Closed; 212 in Roffman, Presumed Guilty; 347, 351 in Sauvage, Oswald Affair; 37-38, 156 in Scheim, Contract on America; 201 in Scott, ed., Assassinations; Dallas and Beyond; 9, 14-15, 26-29, 70, 88, 99, 144, 161 in Shaw and Harris, Cover-Up; 105, 183 in Sloan, JFK: Last Dissenting Witness; 41, 43-44, 137-138, 158-159, 161, 163, 236, 291 in Smith, Second Plot; 243-244, 256 in Thompson, Six Seconds in Dallas; 498-499 in Trask, Pictures of the Pain; 110, 136-137, 139 in Weisberg, Whitewash II; 168 in Weisberg, Photographic Whitewash; Warren Commission 26 Volumes: IV, 245; XIX, 524; XXIII, 817; XXIV, 23; on Nash Rambler, VI, 266-267; seeing sixth floor cartridges a foot away from the window, VI, 268; Lee Oswald's comment regarding station wagon, VI, 270; on not being remembered on November 22, 1963 by Will Fritz, VII, 404; TESTIMONY OF, VI, 260-273; Warren Commission Report: 160-161, 251-253; House Select Committee 12 Volumes: XII, 6, 17-18. _______________________________ Duke, Thanks for all that! --Thomas _______________________________

____________________________ Thanks, JW. Looks light blue to me. Did the Paines have it painted blue? Michael owned a blue and white 1956 Oldsmobile sedan. Can anyone post a photo of that car or one like it? Thanks, --Thomas ____________________________

NO and NO. BK Ah, the lawyer's usual propensity toward burying us in verbiage and evidence is strangely non-evident! Is this the result of a 12-step program, Bill? ______________________________ A question for William Kelly (or anyone else for that matter)-- Is it true that in the Warren Commission report, Volume II, pg. 506, [2H506] that the following exchange took place? Mr Jenner: "Describe your automobile, will you please?" Mrs. Paine: "It is a 1955 Chevrolet station wagon, green, needing paint, which we bought secondhand. It is in my name." (emphasis added) Thanks, --Thomas ______________________________