Thomas Graves

You have so many ideas about how other people can spend their time on this case BK. Will you be following up on your own suggestions? Myra, I just read Bugliosi's book while on the hopper, and he's got me convinced. I was wrong all along. My instincts betrayed me. All that time wasted. As the Bug says: "...The best course of action for those in the conspiracy community would be to just give up and find a new passion." So no, I won't be following up on my own suggestions. And I'm taking up wine. BK Well, your post is enough convince me. I shan't waste another instant. From now on I'll be drinking a lot of wine. [emphasis added by T.G] On the hopper. _________________________________ Bill, I'll drink a lot of Kentucky straight bourbon whiskey to that! --Thomas P.S. I read the other day that some 92 year old guy died. Very suspicious.... _________________________________

______________________________ Excellent point, Ron. I wish Tosh was still contributing to this "Debate." --Thomas ______________________________

_______ Myra, I'll just bet you're right.... --Thomas _______

___________________________________ Bill, I totally agree. Much more practical.... --Thomas ___________________________________

________________________ Myra, I'm sure you're right. Keep up the good work.... --Thomas ________________________

__________________________ IMO he's performing, or pretending to perform, security. Opinion based on the fact that his body is oriented away from Jackie and the Prez, as if to be able to scan the crowd and screen her and the Prez from any potential threat, and also on the fact that he's the only person in the photo with his body turned away from Jackie and JFK like that.... --Thomas __________________________ ___________ Bumpski ___________

____________________________________ Duke, Regarding your post #7-- Touche! LOL --Thomas P.S. Maybe Robert meant to say Eastern European, or, Heaven forbid, Northern European.... ____________________________________

_______________________________ Yes David, we are indeed talking about the same picture.... --Thomas _______________________________

_______________________________ David, Regarding the identity of the guy who is covering his face with with his jacket, opinions of the "research community" are divided. Many people think he's Frank Sturgis and many people think he's William "Tosh" Plumlee. Having seen both of their photos in several other contexts, I've come to the (obviously subjective) conclusion it's Plumlee. (As they say, "the eyes have it.") Do some "research" and decide for yourself.... Regards, --Thomas _______________________________

_______________________________________ Ron, I don't mean to sound pedantic, but Carter's words in the affidavit you posted, "...I left during their discussion" does not mean the same thing as "Carter had already left the meeting..." So, if what Carter really said in the affidavit is true, then it is conceivably possible, is it not, that he heard JFK and LBJ and JC talking about and ruling out August 27, and their reasons for ruling it out? --Thomas "Devil's Advocate" Graves P.S. and FWIW, Yes, I do believe there was a conspiracy-- I just try to be a "critical thinker"..... P.P.S. And yes I can accept Connally's reasoning that, climate-wise, late August is probably a lousy time of year to attempt political fund raising and "fence-mending" in Texas. P.P.P.S. Keep up the good work! ________________________________________

******************************************************* I somehow seemed to have missed this thread when it started. As I read through it, one fact remained blatantly clear, and that was the direct violation of The Geneva Accords, the Bay of Pigs, as well as the assignment of those supposed "advisers" to SEA from the late 1950's through the culmination of the Vietnam "conflict." Training of foreign nationals, on their own soil, for potential invasion of another country. A former French colony, regardless of whether they asked us for assistance or not, we still proceeded to insert ourselves in their civil war under the guise of that time-worn excuse, "protecting the free world from Communism." And, to this day, we continue to allow the C.I.A. to interfere, or engage, if you will, on behalf of Wall Street, for the soul purpose of extracting a targetted nation's resources, be it their natural resources, or their sweat-shop laboring human resources. Only now, the rapidly becoming time-worn excuse is that we're "protecting the free world from Islamic "terrorists."" The United States and its mother country, The United Kingdom, continue to violate the rules and regulations of engagement agreed upon, and drawn up, as a direct result of the abuses inflicted upon the rights of humans, the conditions under which people were allowed to engage in mortal combat, and that no nation state's constitutional rights be infringed upon, or seized by empirical means. These rights were set forth in The Geneva Accords following the Second World War. The violations of these accords continue unabated by the very nations who contributed the time and effort to draft them in the first place. _________________________________ Hi Terry, Great post. I agree. BTW, I think you meant to say "sole purpose" rather than "soul purpose." (lol) I always look forward to your posts. Really! --Thomas _________________________________

That was a high point for me too, because it was illustrative of certain things that I knew to be true. As is this thread Thomas. _______________________________________ Tom, You could always leave the picnic early. No one would miss you. I see a seat open in "Design And Drama." That would elevate the quality of postings in both forums. More beer for us. I hope the rumpled sportcoat and the craggy, hammy, world-weary affectations once worked for you somewhere. That memory must be sweet. Hey, check out "Cooperative Learning." That stuff is likely to play over there. Bring the herringbone. John, With posts of this high quality you just may end up with a fan club. I might end up being a fan club president. Thought you should know. ... "Bring the herringbone." Oh man what a masterpiece. __________________________________ Gosh, With Myra B. and J. Gillespie gangin' up on me, makes me think maybe I dunn ruffl'd there fethurs. "How serious...." P.S. Myra, Did you become convinced that "Tosh" Plumlee was a witting conspirator before or after he called you that nasty word in his final post? P.P.S. I think the guy covering his face with his jacket in the famous "Operation 40" restaurant photo is Plumlee. Does that mean he wittingly helped to murder JFK? Not necessarily.... --Thomas __________________________________

That was a high point for me too, because it was illustrative of certain things that I knew to be true. As is this thread Thomas. _______________________________________ Tom, You could always leave the picnic early. No one would miss you. I see a seat open in "Design And Drama." That would elevate the quality of postings in both forums. More beer for us. I hope the rumpled sportcoat and the craggy, hammy, world-weary affectations once worked for you somewhere. That memory must be sweet. Hey, check out "Cooperative Learning." That stuff is likely to play over there. Bring the herringbone. __________________________ John, The following, like your erudite "signature," is from Virgil's The Aeneid, but fortunately only in English: "Then, having gained this land beyond our reckoning, We purified ourselves in the sight of Jove And lit with offerings our altar fires, Then on the Actian shore held games of Ilium." [emphasis added] --Thomas __________________________

A possible answer above? __________________________________ See post #21. "Ping!" __________________________________

____________________________ My-ra, How could I possibly be "disappointed with my results" when I've never claimed to have any "results" (except proving that "Larry Florer" really was Larry Florer--FWIW). I'm happy just to sit back and watch the names of individuals and groups and associations of individuals and groups of about 1% of all the American adults who were alive in '63 being thrown out as possible conspirators on this forum and others like it. Keep up the good work! --Thomas P.S. Do you still think "Tosh" Plumlee was one of the conspirators? (I remember his calling you a #@&!$ in his last or next-to-last post. It made my day!) (edited and bumped) _______________________________

____________________________ My-ra, How could I possibly be "disappointed with my results" when I've never claimed to have a any "results" (except proving that "Larry Florer" really was Larry Florer) I'm happy just to sit back and watch the names of individuals and groups and associations of individuals and groups of about 1% of all the adults who were alive in '63 being thrown out as possible conspirators on this forum and others like it. Keep up the good work! --Thomas ___________________________

Years ago several of us researchers were allowed to tour the empty TSBD building. Robert Cutler arranged it. He had a list of experiments he wanted to perform. His first was simulating the firing of the last shot, running to the opposite corner of the building and hiding the gun, and running down the stairs to the second floor lunch room, timing it with a stopwatch. The second was having a person on the sixth floor and persons on the fifth floor directly below (I was one of those on the fifth floor). The sixth floor person dropped a coin, and we could hear it, dropped several times. He then RAN across the floor, and each step made a booming klunk. In fact, we could communicate with each other by talking very loudly. You have to understand that at that time, this was an ancient warehouse, not like a modern building. As I recall (I think photos show this), the upper floors had no ceilings...just floor joists supporting the pine board flooring above; so there was just an inch thickness of wood between floors. I seem to recall that there were even cracks between some of the boards. Sounds from the floor above were easily heard. Jack ______________________________ Jack, When you say that the experiment in which you participated was in the "empty TSBD building," I suppose that by the word "empty" you mean that there were no cartons of books to speak of, especially on the fifth and sixth floors, yes? O.K., now to play "devil's advocate," I would hazard a guess that, according to the laws of physics and sound propagation, such hurried footfalls as LHO (or Malcolm Wallace or Loy Factor or Richard Cain or whomever) was alleged to have taken from the "sniper's window" across a carton-full sixth floor to the "rifle hiding spot" would have resonated much less on 11/22/63 when there were lots of cartons on the sixth floor than the footfalls you heard when the building was carton-empty. Seems to me that, from a scientific point of view, you guys wasted your time simply because the sounds you heard were not subject to the same conditions which existed in the building (fifth and sixth floors particularly) around 12:35 PM on 11/22/63.... --Thomas P.S. Go Froggies! ______________________________ Bump a cream-cheese bagel! ______________________________ If men below heard empty shells hit the floor, why did they not hear footsteps, which were approximately ten times as loud. Why mention shells and not footsteps? Jack ______________________________ Because the shells were hollow and made of metal and therefore made a high-pitched ringing sound, directly above the witnesses? --Thomas ______________________________

Maybe we get out of it what we put into it. ______________________ Yeah My-rah, absolutely.... So, what have you "gotten out of it" so far, other than the fact that you now think William "Tosh" Plumlee was one of the (witting) conspirators and that the CIA is a nasty, nasty organization and that you really really hate this 'n that 'n tuther thang 'bout 'Merika........? --Thomas ______________________

What a joke........

Oh yeah, good point Nathaniel. That may be part of what happened with Ultimate Sacrifice in fact, as pertaining to Bobby Kennedy. He may have been writing contingency plans, or more hawkish plans for getting Castro as part of a two-track strategy where John and Bobby didn't plan on using the hawk track but the authors took it literally. Maybe. That's a pretty gentlemanly description right there. More gentlemanly than he deserves anyway. __________________ Yeah. Definitely. __________________

I think I read that the movie will be a musical Greg. ... ___________________________ "You'se gotssta have heart, all you'se really needs is heart..." ___________________________ ____________________ bumps a bagel ____________________

___________________ Chris, I've always found this clip very interesting. Looks like a policeman, maybe, behind the fence bending over (looking at something or picking up something) then standing up and becoming more visible to the camera. That thing that appears on the left might be the front of a car which is heading east up Elm Street. Do you know about how many minutes after the shooting this footage was taken by Mr. Darnell (as pointed out by Chris in post #4)? One minute, two,... ? Thanks, --Thomas ___________________ _________________________ Folks, When I watch, over and over again, the stabilized Couch clip posted by Chris on this thread, it's obvious to me that there was a dark "stain" or "wet spot" or "pool" of something, (soda pop?, blood?, pee-pee? lol)... on the left side of the walkway and slightly behind the bench. In the clip, it's interesting to note that the little boy and his mother(?) intentionally walk around this dark anomaly as they start walking down the walkway away from the camera and that the inquisitive dark-suited man (detective?) in the foreground seems to be homing in on it at the end of the clip...... The area in question is covered in general shade, cast by the nearby tree/trees, etc. and therefore, sorry, I don't think that the "stain" or "wet spot" or "pool" or "whatever" can be explained away as a simple shadow cast by the widdle boy.... Look for yourself, over and over again as I did, and I think you'll agree....... It's interesting that the mother(?) actually seems to pull the boy's arm in such a way as to keep him from stepping in it. If I remember correctly, Sitzman claimed that she heard "glass breaking" (a thrown-down soda pop bottle perhaps?) to her right. Yes? OK, well, gosh. That's interesting in-and-of-itself, isn't it? Yes, I realize that it's been asserted that a very rapidly-disappearing, mysterious and oh-so-inconveniently-not-coming forth-after-the-assassination "Let's-get-the-Hell-outta-here-while-the-gettin's-good!" Afro-American couple, who had been sitting on the bench, eatin' their lunch and takin' in the passing of the motorcade, had allegedly thrown down one of their soda pop bottles (why?) and left the other bottle of soda pop on top of the "black dog" wall. So I guess what I'm sayin' here is that I doubt that the alleged thrown-down soda pop bottle was thrown down at the place indicated in the Couch film? Hmm.... Interesting. To spell it out, it seems to me that it would have been thrown down more to the front and/or to the side of the bench. In my mind, the dark stain or pool visible in Couch's film was pee-pee or blood left behind by an unwanted witness/victim. But then again, if the guy or gal drinkin' the soda pop realized that the soda was gettin' all over his or her clothing as he or she was runnin' for their life and was otherwise slowin' him or her down, then I suppose it makes sense that he or she would have thrown the bottle of soda pop down right there on the walkway with sufficient force for Sitzman to hear, right? Comments please? Thanks, --Thomas _________________________________ _________________________ ________________________ Hi Chris, I'm leapfrogging a bit here.... Yes, I agree that the detective(?) in the background is closer to and therefore, ostensibly, "more interested in" the stain/pool on the walkway than the detective(?) in the foreground. Fact is, they both seem to be quite interested in it, don't they?. They're just approaching it from different ends/angles. In my my mind, the important question is, "Was it cherry cola or blood or....?" --Thomas P.S. I still think it's a car coming into view on the left, but I could be wrong. It would be an exciting discovery if we could prove that there really was a gap in the fence at that point. But still, how do we explain the appearance of the object coming into view in the left? Someone sticking their hand through the gap? --Thomas P.S. Thanks for posting the great clips. _________________________ _______________________________________ Bump a bagel. _______________________________________

I think I read that the movie will be a musical Greg. ... ___________________________ "You'se gotsta have heart, all you'se really needs is heart..." ___________________________

_______________________________ Flag setting update. And yes, oh, uh Mr. Simkin, would you please elaborate on what you said in an earlier post about LBJ's blackmailing of JFK to get him to appoint Connally Secretary of the Navy? Fascinating stuff I'm sure and and believe it or not, I totally believe it. Would love to read about it, though, so it could rise above blind belief on my part if you know what I mean. Although I'm sure it's probably already been discussed in great length on this forum, I have neither the time nor the patience to try to find the pertinent post (not to mention thread) by using the rather "lousy" search-engine with which we are stuck here. Shall I type in "Connally" or "blackmail" or "JFK" or "Connally blackmailed JFK" or "TFX-111" or exactly what? LOL Of course, I don't really expect you to respond to this post of mine. After all, you very rarely do, busy man that you undoubtedly are.... Sincerely, --Thomas P.S. Funny thing is, I can totally believe that LBJ (and JEH for that matter) blackmailed the $#!@ out of JFK (and his bro). I just want to be as well informed as you are.... Seriously. Thank you. Your fabian socialist disciple-- T.G. P.P.S. How's West Ham doing? Seriously. _______________________________

Years ago several of us researchers were allowed to tour the empty TSBD building. Robert Cutler arranged it. He had a list of experiments he wanted to perform. His first was simulating the firing of the last shot, running to the opposite corner of the building and hiding the gun, and running down the stairs to the second floor lunch room, timing it with a stopwatch. The second was having a person on the sixth floor and persons on the fifth floor directly below (I was one of those on the fifth floor). The sixth floor person dropped a coin, and we could hear it, dropped several times. He then RAN across the floor, and each step made a booming klunk. In fact, we could communicate with each other by talking very loudly. You have to understand that at that time, this was an ancient warehouse, not like a modern building. As I recall (I think photos show this), the upper floors had no ceilings...just floor joists supporting the pine board flooring above; so there was just an inch thickness of wood between floors. I seem to recall that there were even cracks between some of the boards. Sounds from the floor above were easily heard. Jack ______________________________ Jack, When you say that the experiment in which you participated was in the "empty TSBD building," I suppose that by the word "empty" you mean that there were no cartons of books to speak of, especially on the fifth and sixth floors, yes? O.K., now to play "devil's advocate," I would hazard a guess that, according to the laws of physics and sound propagation, such hurried footfalls as LHO (or Malcolm Wallace or Loy Factor or Richard Cain or whomever) was alleged to have taken from the "sniper's window" across a carton-full sixth floor to the "rifle hiding spot" would have resonated much less on 11/22/63 when there were lots of cartons on the sixth floor than the footfalls you heard when the building was carton-empty. Seems to me that, from a scientific point of view, you guys wasted your time simply because the sounds you heard were not subject to the same conditions which existed in the building (fifth and sixth floors particularly) around 12:35 PM on 11/22/63.... --Thomas P.S. Go Froggies! ______________________________ Bump a cream-cheese bagel! ______________________________