Kathleen Collins

Jim DiEugenio:

"As any student of wealth and power in America knows, this is a rather amazing statement. In 1960, according to John Blair's definitive study The Control of Oil, the Rockefeller family had controlling interest in three of the top seven oil companies in America, and four of the top eight in the world. They were also in control of Chase Manhattan Bank, one of the biggest in the nation then and the largest today. They also owned the single most expensive piece of real estate in the country, Rockefeller Center in New York City. The list of private corporations controlled by them could go on for a page, but to name just two, how about IBM and Eastern Airlines. I won't enumerate the overseas holdings of the family but, suffice it to say, the Kennedys weren't in the same league in that category. JFK knew this. As Mort Sahl relates, before the 1960 election, he liked to kid Kennedy about being the scion of a multimillionaire. Kennedy cornered him once on this topic and asked him point blank how much he thought his family was worth. Sahl replied, "Probably about three or four hundred million." Kennedy then asked him how much he thought the Rockefellers were worth. Sahl said he had no idea. Kennedy replied sharply, "Try about four billion." JFK let the number sink in and then added, "Now that's money, Mort."

That is an excellent point DiEugenio makes. Because of their close ties to both US intelligence and Lyndon Johnson person and the Texas oil men, specifically Clint Murchison, Sr. it is why I think, or strongly suspect that the Rockefellers, particularly Nelson, were invovled in the JFK assassination.

The bankers Rockefellers were also OIL MEN. They and their minions John J. McCloy, Allen Dulles, probably others, had close ties to the Texas oil men who, along with the CIA, arranged the JFK assassination. Clint Murchison, Sr. was something of a banker.

If Gen Ed Lansdale (photographed) at TSBD was involved, then Allen Dulles very likely was (look at Dulles outrageous behavior on the Warren Commission farce), and if Allen Dulles was then Nelson Rockefeller very likely was.

And if Nelson Rockefeller was involved in the JFK assassination, then I think it is very likely that Henry Kissinger knew exactly what was happening, although Kissinger at that time did not have the authority to order it. Kissinger was also at Harvard with McGeorge Bundy, Kennedy's NSC advisor who acted extremely suspiciously in promoting the "lone nutter" fantasy within hours of JFK's murder, not a reasonable thing to do base on the overwhelming real time evidence of shots (plural from the front) and shooters (plural).

Future CIA McGeorge Bundy was the secretary of the CFR at the same time future CIA head Allen Dulles was the president of the CFR. The CFR was heavily influenced, almost controlled by the Rockefellers.

My bottom line is this: I think both the Texas oil men of LBJ and the Rockefellers were involved in the JFK assassination. I think they used the CIA/military to kill JFK. With LBJ and Hoover to cover it up. Then Allen Dulles, Ford and McCloy on the Warren Commission farce.

Then the baton was handed to CIA media assets, who were often Council on Foreign Relations members.

Bob, I think you mean Clint Murchison Jr, who was quite old at the time. His son is now Clint Murchison III and active in Dallas.

Kathy C

Tonight on The O'Reilly Factor Bill O'Reilly, basking in the success of his book Killing Lincoln, announced he is now currently collaborating in a work which will be called Killing Kennedy. Mr. O'Reilly has a very large following and this book will be widely read, and ultimately, quite successful, if I'm reading the tea leaves correctly. He expects to be done some months hence, and now would be a good time to provide him with critical input, though I don't know personally how to do it in a way that will get through to his desk. If anyone out there does, please be on notice. Agree with him or not, the man is quite influential. Regards to all, Daniel

Whose side is he going to take? I have a book by him selling on eBay. [idyllic Books].. As I said in my book description he looks to me like if he had one drink he'd kill somebody. He angers very easily. He may have had a drinking problem at one time, which made him homicidal. I see that in his face and when someone disagrees with him. Even if he's smiling he hates you. Just my impression. I hope he's not going to do a book on Kennedy's sex life. We need a break. And what's he going to say? He's a conservative. Is he going to announce to the world that LHO did it? We've had enough books saying that, recently Bugliosi and Mark Fuhrman. Are we going to be dealing with that mentality again? Enough is enough. I would bet he's a media asset, so he's not going to tell us anything we should know. Case Closed.

Kathy C

I am at the point where I believe almost ALL of the sex stories about Kennedy - Inga Avard, Judith Exner, Ellen Rometsch, MiMi Beardsley, Mary Meyer, the case of his son Jack e liked that development; I could see them using that to justify further actions against JFK.

Lisa Howard & Castro: http://28.media.tumb...bpo86o1_500.jpg

There is a whole gynasium full of mistresses, stories, documentation, re-confirmation about the rampant sexual promiscuity of John Kennedy (and Bill Clinton), yet some folks just don't want to *believe.* Well, it's a free country and you don't have to believe.

That's the youngest picture I've seen of Castro. But notice the limp wrist...

Kathy C

This is almost too much. Really.

Suddenly, the JFK community is to rely upon, of all publications, The New Republic?

Bob, when did you get into this, last week? I thought I saw you at a couple of Lancer conferences.

Do you know who runs TNR? And who has run it into the ground for the last forty years? I mean do some research will you.

Then go ahead and read what happened when Ray Marcus tried to get Peretz to look at some evidence on the JFK case back in 1966--way before there were any Exner stories or Mary Meyer stories around. Now, go ahead and look and see if TNR has ever published any positive review of any good book about JFK, for example: Battling Wall Street, JFK and Vietnam, JFK:Ordeal in Africa, Brothers, JFK and the Unspeakable etc. See if they have ever written anything real about the JFK murder since Peretz took over. (They actually did previously under Gil Harrison.)

But you will notice one thing interesting if you do some research on TNR and JFK. When the Collier and Horowitz piece of crap came out, Peretz put it on the front cover. Do you know who he assigned the review to? Midge Decter. For me this marked when Peretz actually tipped off that he was not really a centrist liberal. He was now heading into the neo con camp. Which he did. Do me a favor. Look up who Decter is and who she is related to. You will come across the name of one Elliot Abrams. End of story.

So please, no more of this. OK. You obviously have done very little work on the media in this case.

As per Lifton, wow, he is now in the RFK snuffed Marilyn camp? Utterly ridiculous goofiness. I did months of work on this issue. What, did RFK do? Use a helicopter from GIlroy, then land it on some private heliport in Santa Monica?

Just bonkers. Almost every hour of RFK's stay is accounted for in GIlroy. Not just with witnesses, but with written evidence. Only someone as goofy on this as the likes of Robert Slatzer and James Haspiel and his gang, would buy into this MM swamp. Norman Mailer admitted he smeared RFK for money. Slatzer has been exposed as a xxxx. I mean what is next,Milo Speriglio? The JImmy Hoffa/Bernie Spindel tapes? Maybe Lifton does not know this but there was a whole long report on the latter issued by the NYC DAs office, called the Carroll report. Spindel had every opportunity to produce these tapes. He never did. Even though he was under indictment.

Lifton is so eager to embrace this crap, maybe he forgets how this whole MM story got started? Guy named Frank Capell, a rightwing nut who was later indicted for guess what? Conspiracy to commit libel. Geez David, does that not give you pause? Most rational people would stop right there and think. Not Lifton.

Next step, Mailer. Who admitted he smeared RFK for money. Not enough for Lifton.

Next step, Slatzer. How did this one start? Slatzer approached a LA TImes reporter with an idea on the MM death. It had a political angle to it. The reporter, WIll Fowler, said to him, "Too bad you weren't married to Monroe, then you would have a story." A couple of weeks later, Slatzer talked to Fowler again. Slatzer said, it slipped his mind, but he had been married to Monroe.

Three strikes and you are out. But not with Lifton.

Now Slatzer is a perfect example of what I am talking about and what I described in my essay. This BS has become a business racket. Because no reputable publishing house, magazine, or TV network would touch such a fraudster. But yet, Slatzer made a career out of this xxxx. He published books, articles and even a TV movie about himself and MM! Did anyone ever call him out on this? Like maybe David Lifton? Heck no. So please when you tell me that the MSM is all aboard Mimi, geez, are you for real? Its like saying the MSM buys the Magic Bullet. NO KIDDING CHARLIE!

Its no surprise to me that Lifton buys Wolfe and anyone who says he saw RFK in LA that night. I mean you can find people who say they saw the helicopter landing on the beach in Santa Monica. ( I am not kidding one bit.) Lifton would probably buy them also.

And now he backs RFK offing Castro. Oh no David, please. DId you get this form Hersh's book and Sam Halpern also? It was exposed long ago buy Talbot. Anyone who takes seriously CIA asset Hersh's work on almost any major topic is simply not aware of Mr. Loomis and their long association.

To ignore that, one must be willfully blind.

Robert F. Slatzer is a disinformationalist. He was also a rabid fan of Marilyn Monroe. Jeanne Carmen is a hustler and Marilyn never roomed with her. Slatzer said he was at Marilyn Monroe's last birthday (36) party, given reluctantly by 20th Century Fox. No photos show him in them. I think he was allowed onto studio lots because he wrote bad westerns. He was a screen writer. I think he hovered around Monroe. Slatzer died about 4 years ago. There is a book out mentioning Marilyn Monroe and Robert Slatzer. He was not a close friend of hers. The book is called "Inside Marilyn Monroe, A Memoir by John Gilmore." He talks about the "fat" man hanging around the set (Niagara) and quietly calling her name. She posed for a picture with him, but that was about it. Slatzer is spoiling the reputations of the Kennedys. None of her friends or colleagues ever heard of him or Jeanne Carmen.

Some of the things Slatzer wrote were disgraceful lies. This was especially aimed at Robert Kennedy.

Kathy C

I believe that Marilyn Monroe had affairs with both John Kennedy and Robert Kennedy.

One of David Lifton's friends or acquaintances (or a friend's friend) was in car with Robert Kennedy when it was stopped in Los Angeles (or perhaps Santa Monica, near where ever Marilyn lived) on or about the day of her death.

I am not saying RFK killed Marilyn. I do think RFK was doing emergency work trying to keep her quiet.

Joe DiMaggio went to his grave thinking the Kennedys killed Marilyn. Joe DiMaggio was the one who loved Marilyn Monroe the most; I don't know of anyone else who put fresh flowers on her grave every week for the rest of HIS life.

I think DiMaggio was completely aware that Monroe was having affairs with both Kennedy brothers. I think he hated them and was jealous of them. And he suspected they had her murdered.

I would not go that far; but I do think Marilyn Monroe was having a sexual relationship with both John and Robert Kennedy.

She definitely had an affair with President Kennedy. But Robert Kennedy was trying to help her in several ways. They were going to do a movie on his book, The Enemy Within. He talked to studio bosses who gave her back her job. He spoke with her psychiatrist. He was trying to get her off Jack's back and there is no proof whatsoever that Bobby Kennedy had a physical relationship with Marilyn Monroe. He was there that night. But he was being framed.

Kathy C

I have to admit error.

That's a good boy.

Kathy C

John:

You are missing the point.

As I stated above, its not a matter of whether or not Kennedy had affairs. To me whether he did or did not is not really relevant.

It is what people who are in the "business racket" do with these things TO MAKE THEM SEEM RELEVANT that is the key.

With Exner, Time-Life went ahead and simply made up BS to make them appear to be relevant. On that one, the original writer, Kitty Kelly, did not write one word of the front page essay. The editors at Time-Life just made up crap about the mafia and JFK to sell magazines. And then Hersh and Russo went even beyond that. Except their source, Underwood, would not show up for his ARRB interview.

With Mary Meyer, Leary lied his head off to sell his book Flashbacks. Dr. LSD, made sure he got acid in the White House. Somehow, no one noticed that in his 25 previous attempts to write about the matter, he forgot about Mary Meyer.

As per David Lifton, man where have you been?

C. David Heymann? This guy was exposed as a serial xxxx ages ago.

Frankie, you are right on.

That's it. Anyway that's what I think. That's what makes this a worthwhile topic to me. (I know its an answer to John Simkin)

I think it's interesting that some chief purveyors (and creators) of this stuff to feed a certain something are, like Edgar 'the body remover' Hoover far more sexually conflicted (Walker too) yet hide behind a certain facade. One can go far on this on a number of tangents like sociology for example. It's funny (see the whats the tsbd topic) what's often missed is right in front of one.

edit typo

Whoever has read the C. David Heyman book, does he include a picture of Bobby Kennedy, wife and kids, going to church on Aug.5, 1962 in Gilroy, CA, which is pretty far away from Santa Monica. I've been trying to find this picture for a long time.

Kathy C

John Edwards and his affair and child with another woman. I sometimes wonder if Edwards himself prompted that coming out in public. The greyhound, Ann Coulter, called John Edwards a "fag" on Fox's Hannity and Colmes Show. Maybe he felt he had something to prove.

Kathy C

Uh Bob, before you quote someone like Smathers, who actually was a backer of Eladio Del Valle,you should know two things about him.

First, there is a famous story about JFK braking a plate over a dinner table when someone was pushing him to order the CIA to kill Castro. It turns out that person do ing the pushing was Smathers.

Second, for a number of years after the assassination, Smathers played the loyal pal to his deceased friend. This suddenly changed at the request of guess who? Lucianna Goldberg! She was prepping a Jackie Kennedy book for her client Kitty Kelly. Now suddenly Smathers did a pirouettee and started dishing all this dirt on his pal, which he had not done before.

Bob, what you "believe" about Kennedy and his affairs is ultimately inconsequential. Maybe he did, maybe he did not. Big deal.

I mean if we started judging each and every president and politician by his loyalty to his wife, then guys like FDR and Eisenhower would be impeached and Nixon would not have. I mean Big Deal. Alexander Hamilton had numerous affairs also. We all know that Jefferson had an affair with a black slave, and had kids by her. That screaming segregationist Strom Thurmond was a lying hypocrite. He had an affair with a black woman and covered it up for decades. George H. W. Bush very likely cheated on his wife. His son had an out of wedlock child and paid off the woman to shut her up.

Repeat: BIG DEAL! Who the hell cares? American history is strewn with this stuff.

What I object to is when it becomes an independent business. Which is what it has become in this case. Certain political enemies have used these people and completely exaggerated their stories for monetary and political gain. With Exner it was to somehow say that the Kennedys were not al that mad at the Mafia,they were actually in cahoots with them to off Castro. Which turned out to be a damned lie generated by Russo and Hersh, and BTW exposed by Exner herself on TV. Where, in an unguarded and unrehearsed moment, she admitted to having never meeting RFK.

As per Mary Meyer, again, maybe he did, maybe he did not. It doesn' t matter does it? See, but these people then make it more than it is to make it matter. The Mary Meyer story now gets blown up into doing LSD in the White House by a lying Tim Leary. It is then accepted by biographers like rightwing shills David Horowitz and Peter Collier. And put on the cover of his magazine by the likes of Martin Peretz, who drove the once proud New Republic into the ground.

And as Sullivan said about Hoover, there he was blowing all the smoke outward. Well on this site, here is Caddy doing the same with for example the Worthington hoax.

You then throw in out of the blue, Lisa Howard? My God, where did you pull that one from? Then you say Marilyn Monroe "of course"? Have you read Spoto's book? You throw in Jayne Mansfield. My God, where did you get that one? David Heymann? Because he is the only one who ever mentioned it.

But see, this is where this kind of unthinking approach leads to. Which is everywhere and nowhere. By our captain, Mr. Caddy.

Smathers was a bastard from day one.

In a Jayne Mansfield biography, she reportedly said that JFK was a big zero in bed and basically she didn't care for him. She hated Jackie. She said Jackie was using her voice. When you hear Jackie speak, as Norman Mailer said, she sounded like Marilyn Monroe playing Ophelia.

Kathy C

He probably told himself that he was not being unfaithful as long as he did not kiss the women. He might have been an above average president but he was a lousy human being.

I'm glad you articulated what I, with some discomfort, felt. It was a different time back then, with a different moral compass. I suspect that his friends and family probably felt somewhat proud and even envious of his ability to seduce women, and to get away with it. It would be later, toward the end of the 60s, that American men first started to catch on to the concept that promiscuity and cheating were immoral and demeaning. One could argue that his marriage may not have been mutually satisfactory, that it was maintained only for "show," but it appears that he was still having some marital relations and children even while cheating. It almost seems to have been something of a game.

As I admire President Kennedy, I was willing to overlook an incident or two of infidelity, but the the slow trickle of names and stories, some of which are probably true, makes it a lot harder to excuse or ignore. What was he thinking?

I don't know about England, but in the US in the late '60's it was free love, the summer of love. People were more promiscuous. Women were allowed to enjoy themselves.

And we have to remember that JFK was on daily cortisone shots and amphetamine shots, had to wear a girdle. If you can believe the Autopsy, his adrenal glands were completely atrophied. But his sister Eunice had the same Addisons disease and lived to a ripe old age. 

Take a look at Maria Shriver.<br><br>Kathy C

I think he was a normal human male of the time that simply had more opportunities and a more liberal attitude which is typical of the left (rather red than dead is probably one of the more interesting statements). His 'flirting' with the immoral which he justified to himself and through his apologies indicate a sense of correct morals simply, imo, makes him normal.

He said there's one thing he hated about this job -- having to get up on Sunday morning and go to church.

He might have been an above average president but he was a lousy human being.

John Simkin. The biggest Forum on your education site is the JFK Debate. Why do you spend so much time working on this Forum when you hate Kennedy? You should be hunting down Nazis or something.

Kathy C

Just reading this piece makes me sick to my stomach. And this is the problem of the JFK Researchers Community. It's one thing to have an affair with Marilyn Monroe, but a young woman about to be married? It paints a very nasty picture. And this is their weapon, the right-wingers use to counteract the Assassination stories. I think Judy Campbell Exner suffered for having known him. Mary Pinchot Meyer was shot dead in an unsolved crime. And the rumors of Monroe's death. This is the stuff they throw at us. More so than his policies -- the eyes glaze over. How do we fix this? Not by lies, not by retaliation. Who knows if any of this stuff is true?

I mean, even myself. When I read how often they had sex and then he tells her to service Johnson and Dave Powers while he watched, it turns me off. So it must be doing a similar thing to people who don't remember him or who believe these stories. It's not like the man can defend himself. This kind of Journalism hurts the cause.

And when the film JFK came out, many columnists condemned the movie. Especially Chicago's Irv Kupcinet, whose daughter was almost a character in the movie until they went with Rose Cheramie.

Kathy C

Well, Kathy, do you care about the truth about your political leaders or do you want to hear stories that make you feel good? What do you like: the truth or a comfortable, soothing lie?

I like the truth even if it is the ugly truth. And the truth is John Kennedy, like Lyndon Johnson and Bill Clinton, was rampantly promiscuous. This is well documented. And it is important because it gives us insight into who JFK was, what his character was like, what his weaknesses were. And how Lyndon Johnson and Sam Rayburn were able to blackmail/strongarm and intimidate John Kennedy into putting LBJ on the ticket as VP at the 1960 Democratic convention.

They did not use the "MiMi affair," they handle plenty of other material to work with as well as threatenting to kill all of JFK's legislation.

I suggest reading the "Dark Side of Camelot" by Seymour Hersh and you will learn a lot mroe about JFK, his weaknesses and his rivalry with Lyndon Johnson:

http://www.amazon.co...28511461&sr=1-1

I read the book already. It's on a shelf in my hallway closet. I have no plans to sell it, as I do on Amazon [Paper and Pen] and eBay [idyllic Books].

Kathy C

Just to amplify this in light of other people's posts:

I suspect that Oswald was a spy from a family of military-intel spies: John Pic, Robert Oswald.

I wouldn't doubt that attempts were made, and even ongoing conditioning performed, to remake Oswald as a "Manchurian Candidate"-type assassin, or else to make him more suitable for his false-defector role. I do doubt that these efforts worked.

dadvertising the unknown. But that quaver in his voice at midnight, when the reporters tell him he has been charged in Kennedy's murder, opens a different panel. Had he expected to be meeting Raul Castro instead of Henry Wade at that hour?

I would love to hear Dick Russell's take on Nagell's understanding of Oswald, and also Russell's own.

The Manchurian Candidate came out in 1962. Maybe Oswald saw it at the Texas Theater. I feel Oswald was from Russia due to audio tapes of him and his Russian friend. On one tape he even says a variation of the F-word and sounds American.

TSBD worker Harold Norman told HSCA that while on the first floor during the morning of the assassination, Oswald made a weird gesture:

"Maxwell (interviewer) Did you see him come to work?

Norman: No, I don't see him when he came in the building to work. I mean, you know, he was coming to work. There's one thing I do recall now was when he ask us what was everybody so excited about the President coming to town. Then he turn around to leave, you know how a kid would do if he's playing cowboys and indians?

Maxwell: Right.

Norman: He did like this: "pew".

Maxwell: Indicating that he reached like he was drawing two guns?

Norman: Right

Since any psychologist would tell you that memory does not improve with the passage of time (it actually gets worse), and considering that Norman never mentioned this episode to anyone prior to this point, it seems obvious to me that he was (1) mentally challenged, (2) being paid to make this up, or (3) scared about something. Has this ever been discussed in the forum?

Link to transcript of Norman interview: http://www.reopenken...collection.html

link to the "pew" page: http://www.reopenken...782343_orig.jpg

I have a weird theory. If you believe there were 2 Oswalds -- and we know Tan Jacket Man was the one looking out the 6th floor window -- could the actions of Oswald be done by Lee Oswald to further sully Harvey Oswald's innocence? And that's why he was in the building.

Kathy C

Teen mistress addresses relationship, pol's Cold War fears in memoir

New York Post

By CYNTHIA R. FAGEN

Last Updated: 12:08 PM, February 5, 2012

Posted: 1:49 AM, February 5, 2012

http://www.nypost.co...K#ixzz1lX1xaVNY

She always called him "Mr. President" — not Jack. He refused to kiss her on the lips when they made love. But Mimi Alford, a White House intern from New Jersey, was smitten nonetheless.

She was in the midst of an 18-month affair with the most powerful man in the world, sharing not only John F. Kennedy's bed but also some of his darkest and most intimate moments.

In her explosive new tell-all, "Once Upon a Secret: My Affair with President John F. Kennedy and Its Aftermath," Alford, now a 69-year-old grandmother and retired New York City church administrator, sets the record straight in searingly candid detail. The book, out Wednesday was bought by The Post at a Manhattan bookstore.

In the summer of 1962, Alford was a slender, golden-haired 19-year-old debutante whose finishing-school polish and blueblood connections had landed her a job in the White House press office.

Four days into her internship, she was invited by an aide to go for a midday swim in the White House pool, where the handsome, 45-year-old president swam daily to ease chronic back pain. JFK slid into the pool and floated up to her.

"It's Mimi, isn't it?" he asked.

"Yes, sir," she said.

"And you're in the press office this summer, right?"

"Yes, sir, I am," she replied.

Lightning had struck. Later that day, Mimi was invited by Dave Powers, the president's "first friend" and later the longtime curator of the Kennedy Library in Boston, to an after-work party. When she arrived at the White House residence, Powers and two other young female staffers were waiting. Powers poured, and frequently refilled, her glass with daiquiris until the commander-in-chief arrived.

The president invited her for a personal tour. She got up, expecting the rest of the group to follow. They didn't. He took her to "Mrs. Kennedy's room."

"I noticed he was moving closer and closer. I could feel his breath on my neck. He put his hand on my shoulder," she recounts.

The next thing she knew, he was standing above her, looking directly into her eyes and guiding her to the edge of the bed.

"Slowly, he unbuttoned the top of my shirtdress and touched my breasts.

"Then he reached up between my legs and started to pull off my underwear.

"I finished unbuttoning my shirtdress and let it fall off my shoulders."

Kennedy pulled down his pants but, with his shirt still on, hovered above her on the bed.

He smelled of his cologne, 4711. He paused when he noticed her resisting.

"Haven't you done this before?" he asked.

"No," she said.

"Are you OK?" he asked.

"Yes," she said.

So he kept going, this time a little more gently.

"After he finished, he hitched up his pants and smiled at me" and pointed her to the bathroom.

When she was finished, he was outside in the West Sitting Hall, where their evening had begun.

"I was in shock," she writes. "He, on the other hand, was matter-of-fact, and acted as if what had just occurred was the most natural thing in the world."

"Would you like something to eat?" he asked. "The kitchen's right here."

"No, thank you, Mr. President."

He called a car to come pick her up and take her home.

On the ride home, it "kept echoing in my head: I'm not a virgin anymore."

The next week, she was again invited to go swimming.

"He barely acknowledged my arrival, betraying no hint of what had happened between us just a few days before. I couldn't bring myself to look at him in the eye," she writes.

Later, he led her into a different bedroom. "This was the beginning of our affair," she writes.

In a moment of reflection, Alford wonders "if I could have resisted him.

"The fact that I was being desired by the most famous and powerful man in America only amplified my feelings to the point where resistance was out of the question. That's why I didn't say no to the president. It's the best answer I can give."

She would swim with the president at noon or at the end of the workday, race back to her desk and wait for a call to visit him upstairs.

"The governing factor behind these calls, of course, was the presence — or, more accurately, the absence — of Mrs. Kennedy."

They never returned to Jackie's bedroom but stayed in his, which was cluttered with piles of books, magazines and newspapers.

Kennedy could be playful and tried to extract naughty things that she did as a schoolgirl. "What did all you girls do locked up in that boarding school?" he would ask. Ironically, she had attended Miss Porter's, Jacqueline's alma mater.

Their sex was "varied and fun." He could be seductive and playful and sometimes "acted like he had all the time in the world. Other times, he was in no mood to linger."

They spent an "inordinate amount of time taking baths." Kennedy changed his shirt six times a day because he hated feeling "sweaty or grimy."

They lined the bathtub with rubber ducks given to him as a gag gift; they named the ducks after his family members, made up back stories for them and raced them in the tub.

He taught her how to scramble eggs.

He loved popular music, especially Tony Bennett and Frank Sinatra. They shared a love for the musical "How to Succeed in Business Without Really Trying" and would sing along to it together.

Sometimes, she would spend the night with him, and he would outfit her with his own soft-blue cotton nightshirts.

But there was also distance. "There was always a layer of reserve between us, which may explain why we never kissed," she writes. "The wide gulf between us — the age, the power, the experience — guaranteed that our affair wouldn't evolve into anything more serious."

She never once ran into Jackie during these flings and admits to not feeling guilty.

He sometimes invited her aboard the Sequoia, the presidential yacht, for a Potomac cruise.

On a trip to Yosemite National Park, she noticed a pattern, which she called "the Waiting Game." She was told to stay put in her hotel until the president called for her, which meant sitting around for hours. Often, he would only call her at night

On one excursion, she met Vice President Lyndon Johnson. When she told the president about the introduction, he lost his composure.

"Stay away from him," he commanded, likely worried that Johnson could use knowledge of the affair against him.

At the end of the summer, she told the president that she had to return to college, at Wheaton, an all-girls school in Massachusetts.

He promised that he would call under the pseudonym "Michael Carter." And then he played a recording of Nat King Cole's "Autumn Leaves." He made her concentrate on the lyrics, "But I miss you most of all, my darling, when autumn leaves start to fall."

As a parting gift, she gave him a copy of the record and trimmed the cover with leaves she had collected.

"You're trying to make me cry," he told her.

"I'm not trying to make you cry, Mr. President," she said. "I'm trying to make sure you remember me."

Within a week of her return to college, she got a call from Michael Carter.

He asked her dozens of questions: What courses was she taking? Did she like the teachers? Were the girls interesting? What did she have for dinner? He then invited her to Washington when Jackie was away.

A car service would pick her up and drive her to the airport, where a paid ticket to DC would be waiting for her.

Upon arrival, a chauffeur holding up a sign for Michael Carter would take her to the White House.

On one visit, Kennedy was embroiled in one of the most defining moments of his presidency, the Cuban Missile Crisis. For 13 days in October 1962, the United States and the Soviets were at a nuclear standoff.

Although historians have dissected Kennedy's actions, none was privy to what he confided to Mimi.

"I'd rather my children red than dead," he told her.

It was a chilling insight.

When the president wasn't keeping the world from descending into war, there was plenty of wild partying. One instance was a raucous Hollywood bash at Bing Crosby's desert ranch.

"I was sitting next to him in the living room when a handful of yellow capsules — most likely amyl nitrate, commonly known as poppers — was offered up by one of the guests. The president asked me if I wanted to try the drug, which stimulated the heart but also purportedly enhanced sex. I said no, but he just went ahead and popped the capsule and held it under my nose."

He didn't try it himself.

"This was a new sensation, and it frightened me," Mimi recalls. "I panicked and ran crying from the room."

It wasn't her first glimpse of Kennedy's dark side.

"He had been guilty of an even more callous and unforgivable episode at the White House" during a noon swim. Powers had rolled up his pants to cool his feet in the water. "The president swam over and whispered in my ear. 'Mr. Powers looks a little tense,' he said. 'Would you take care of it?'

"It was a dare, but I knew exactly what he meant. This was a challenge to give Dave Powers oral sex. I don't think the president thought I'd do it, but I'm ashamed to say that I did . . . The president silently watched."

Alford, then Mimi Beardsley, says that later the president apologized to them both.

Another time, she writes, while back at Wheaton, she thought she was pregnant and told Powers. Obviously, this could explode into scandal. Abortion was illegal in 1962. Powers put her in touch with a woman who had a contact for a doctor. In the end, it was a false alarm.

There were tender moments, too.

Kennedy, alone and grieving the death of his infant child, Patrick Bouvier Kennedy, reached out for his young confidante.

"I had never seen real grief in my relatively short life," she writes.

While Jackie was still recovering in Cape Cod, Kennedy was back at the White House.

"He invited me upstairs, and we sat outside on the balcony in the soft summer evening air. There was a stack of condolence letters on the floor next to his chair, and he picked each one up and read it aloud to me. Some were from friends and others from strangers, but they were all heartfelt and deeply moving. Occasionally, tears rolling down his cheeks, he would write something on one of the letters, probably notes for a reply. But mostly he just read them and cried. I did, too."

One of their last times together was at a Boston Democratic fund-raiser. Ted Kennedy, the president's baby brother, was in the room with them.

"I could see that mischievous look come into his eye. 'Mimi, why don't you take care of my baby brother? He could stand a little relaxation.'

"You've got to be kidding me," she replied firmly. "Absolutely not, Mr. President."

About to be married to her college sweetheart, Tony Fahnestock, she met Kennedy for the last time at The Carlyle hotel in Manhattan on Nov. 15, 1963, just seven days before his assassination in Dallas.

"He took me in his arms for a long embrace and said, 'I wish you were coming with me to Texas.' And then he added, 'I'll call you when I get back.' I was overcome with sudden sadness. 'Remember, Mr. President, I'm getting married.'

" 'I know that,' he said, and shrugged. 'But I'll call you anyway.' "

cynthia.fagen@nypost.com

Read more: http://www.nypost.co...K#ixzz1lX1xaVNY

Just reading this piece makes me sick to my stomach. And this is the problem of the JFK Researchers Community. It's one thing to have an affair with Marilyn Monroe, but a young woman about to be married? It paints a very nasty picture. And this is their weapon, the right-wingers use to counteract the Assassination stories. I think Judy Campbell Exner suffered for having known him. Mary Pinchot Meyer was shot dead in an unsolved crime. And the rumors of Monroe's death. This is the stuff they throw at us. More so than his policies -- the eyes glaze over. How do we fix this? Not by lies, not by retaliation. Who knows if any of this stuff is true?

I mean, even myself. When I read how often they had sex and then he tells her to service Johnson and Dave Powers while he watched, it turns me off. So it must be doing a similar thing to people who don't remember him or who believe these stories. It's not like the man can defend himself. This kind of Journalism hurts the cause.

And when the film JFK came out, many columnists condemned the movie. Especially Chicago's Irv Kupcinet, whose daughter was almost a character in the movie until they went with Rose Cheramie.

Kathy C

In my opinion MiMi Alford is telling the 100% truth. Both John Kennedy and Lyndon Johnson were highly promiscuous.

Also, note that the publisher of this book is Random House that likes to publish dirt on John Kennedy. Random House (editor Bob Loomis then) published Gerald Posner's epic fail "Case Closed" in response to the movie "JFK" by Oliver Stone.

Funny thing, Random House published MacBird in 1967!

Here are some other JFK related books published by Random House.

Molehunt: The Secret Search for Traitors that Shattered the CIA David Wise 1992 Random House

Invisible Government: the CIA and US Intelligence David Wise & Thomas Ross 1964 Random House

Harlot's Ghost: A Novel Norman Mailer 1992 Random House

Oswald's Tale: An American Mystery Norman Mailer 2007 Random House

Secret Agenda: Watergate, Deep Throat, and the CIA Jim Hougan 1984 Random House

The American Police State David Wise 1988 Random House

Scandals, Scamps, and Scoundrels: The Casebook of an Investigative Reporter James Phelan 1982 Random House

A Day in the Life of President Kennedy Jim Bishop 1964 Random House

Case Closed CIA Stooge 1993 Random House

Once Upon a Secret: My Affair with President John F. Kennedy and It's Aftermath MiMi Alford 2012 Random House

Man of the House: The Life and Political Memoirs of Speaker Tip O'Neill with William Novak Thomas P. O'Neill 1987 Random House

MacBird Barbara Gibson 1967 Random House Trade Paperbacks

Grace and Power: The Private World of the Kennedy White House Sally Bedell Smith 2005 Random House Trade Paperbacks

Our Assassinated Presidents: The True Medical Stories Stewart Brooks 1986 Random House Value

A late researcher told me that Random House was CIA-controlled, a media asset.

Kathy C

This news article brings to mind the story of my law client, Jack Worthington, who said that his mother told him as his putative father lay dying that his real father was JFK and that LBJ had arranged her one-time affair with JFK.

http://www.vanityfai...8/04/jack200804

Whatever happened to Jack Worthington?

Kathy C

I think the general opinion here is that Oswald didn't shoot President Kennedy. We have a picture and a bit of film of the man who was at the 6th floor window -- Tan Jacket Man with the shaved area atop his head. If Oswald wasn't the sniper and never shot at Kennedy, then it's a sure bet he wasn't a victim of MKULTRA.

Kathy C

Then there appears this lead on Sir Han being connected to the California Del Mar race track and leds back to the same bunch of crooks trying to cut off anyhthing that traces back to them. Such as allowing RFK to make the presidency, which would have led to the crooks finding the electric chair in mass quantities.

Notice the common theme is diversion of the theme of the assassination onto that of the CIA did it or those associated with the US Govt did it.

I wish they had let Bobby Kennedy win the presidency. But as for all these "crooks" dying in the electric chair, I don't think that would happen. Because at that time there was too much death going on. His own brother, the Viet Nam war, MLK. I think the murder of John Kennedy truly affected him and made him a different person. I think he would be against the death penalty. Only George W. Bush killed lots of people that way.

Kathy C

http://www.abovetops.../pg#pid12892100

California Gov. Reagan and Senator Rousselot got into the PERMINDEX/Schlumberger's games to cover up the JFK assassination.

I'm just starting to read this thread, so it's hard not to say something someone's already said. Ronald Reagan. As Governor of California, Reagan helped squelch the Kennedy Assassination. According to his younger daughter, the Reagans had company over, a party, while the Kennedy news played on the TV. No one caring about it.

Is it possible that Ronald Reagan, as President Elect, had John Lennon killed, while Carter was still in as President? Reagan was asked about it and said something like it's a terrible thing. This as he's racing into a building with another man. A lot of reporters were there. They asked him if he still believed in the gun issue. President Elect Ronald Reagan said Yes. About 3 months later he himself is shot in the chest but survived it. I don't think it changed his mind any. Then the Pope got shot and also survived.

But with Ronald Reagan it has been said that George HW Bush was behind it. Bush wanted a New World Order. Reagan apparently didn't.. When Bush (HW) was becoming a candidate he chose Dan Quayle as his running mate. This was insurance so he himself wouldn't get assassinated. Bush went on the tarmac and told Reagan his choice. Reagan looked incredulous.

Could it be that a man I voted for in my naivete in 1980 killed John Lennon?

Kathy C

After searching the Forum for TRAMPS... I still find a variety of different opinions and conclusions...

The first being the discrepency between Wise's FBI interview where he talks about MIDDLETON being part of the three tramp escort team with him and Bass

EXCEPT, Middleton claims he did not work 11/22/63 http://jfkassassinat...124-10273-10392

MORE IMPORTANTLY is the statement by Wise that he and BASS escorted the three tramps and that they are in all the pictures..

Well, not so much as I have combined the images and we see that the cops in the Landsdale photo are NOT the same as in the other photos, especially the man in front...

Could this be Vaughn who magically becomes Bass and disappears? The WC only asks Vaugh about the Oswald murder... not a thing about the tramps...

Well - Mr Wise here does not seem to get anything right about that day...

and then when we add Chambers, whose name appears on the three "Arrest Reports on Investigative Prisoner", yet his memory of the incident is even worse...

http://jfkassassinat...124-10180-10305 go to page 4 of these hand writtne notes and find that a bit was left out of the final report....

http://jfkassassinat...124-10151-10221 on page 2 of the Doyle FBI interview they state that the three men had gone to a mission in the morning of 11/22 and took showers and cleaned up and had a noon meal

Yet when looking at all the notes from Wise and other, these men were "Filthy and smelled badly". They had no socks as well...

And finally, Wise was told "They were released" after spending 5 minutes in Decker's office... he does not see them leaving the usual way... and each of the "Arrest Reports" has them discharged on the 26th... 4 days later...

1) Can we confirm who the policemen in the photos are? Who is Wise, Bass, Middleton (who said he was not there) and Vaughn?

2) Were there two sets of tramps? AS these men were definitely not "filthy and smelly" from appearance and Doyle states they had just showered and cleaned up...

3) Doyle states that he and the other two were "convicted of Vagrancy" and sent to jail for 6 days yet were released early... Is there any proof of this?

mug shots? DPD paperwork of any kind? http://jfkassassinat...124-10151-10221

What I see is an unidentified man with an earpiece who'se uniform does not match the man at the rear whose uniform is ill fitting and seems quite short for a cop while barely "guarding" three suspects taken from an area believed to have been the source of shots...

Now why parade these men when they should have been handcuffed and placed in a car - is the real question...

False Sponsors? designed to take up valuable time and effort... which they did and continue to do?

Wise tells us that he speaks to the man in the control tower (Bowers) who mentioned the three men getting into a coal car... Wise and Vaughn retrieve them (Wise is not called to testify and Vaughn is asked ONLY about the Oswald murder)

Finally, Chanbers signs the reports and has no memory of creating them...

If we assume that nothing was done without a purpose that day, and the problems with the descriptions, personnel and events related to these three are plainly obvious... I believe we MUST look at them in the context of the three men who ran out of the back of the TSBD, got into the station wagon, and easily glided onto Elm in the midst of the assassiantion aftermath to stop, pick up an Oswald, and easily ride off -

It does not add up and we must continue to find this connection...

DJ

Not only is E.Howard Hunt the short old tramp but his wife, Dorothy, plays a part: She's the woman with her hand over her face in shock that these maybe the men who killed Kennedy. Nice. hah?

Kathy C

<QUOTE>

Overview of JFK assassination at upcoming Dixie Forum

Written by St. George News on February 1, 2012 in Community News, Life

- No comments

ST. GEORGE – Dixie State College's noontime "Dixie Forum: A Window on

the World" will feature a historical overview of the assassination of

President John F. Kennedy on Feb. 7.

The forum is free as always and will be presented by retired history

teacher Steve Armstrong in the Dunford Auditorium of the Browning

Resource Center on the DSC campus.

Armstrong's presentation will include a description of the facts

surrounding the assassination, the subsequent investigation leading to

the Warren Commission report released in 1964, along with the 1978

report of the House Select Committee.

Armstrong delivered his first presentation on this subject in the

early 1970s, and he continues to update and revise his knowledge and

materials. He has spoken at national conventions in Chicago, Phoenix,

Orlando and Los Angeles, along with several state and local teacher

conventions, workshops, and high school classrooms.

"As our nation approaches the 50th anniversary of JFK's death,"

Armstrong said, "I believe that it's important to examine the facts

and the controversies surrounding this tragic American event. Whether

you were alive at the time or are now seeking knowledge of the JFK

assassination, you are sure to find this a stimulating, interesting

presentation."

Armstrong taught AP American History and AP American Government during

his 35-year teaching career. He was also an AP reader and continues to

do consulting work for The College Board.

For further information on DSC's Dixie Forum series, please contact

DSC Forum advisor Professor Marius van der Merwe at 435-652-7924 or at marius@dixie.edu.

<END QUOTE>

Best Regards in Research,

++Don

Donald Roberdeau

U.S.S. John F. Kennedy, CV-67, plank walker

Sooner, or later, The Truth emerges Clearly

For your considerations....

Homepage : President KENNEDY "Men of Courage" speech, and Assassination Evidence,

Witnesses, Suspects + Outstanding Researchers Discoveries and Considerations.... http://droberdeau.bl...ination_09.html

Dealey Plaza Map : Detailing 11-22-63 Victims precise locations, Witnesses, Films & Photos,

Evidence, Suspected bullet trajectories, Important information & Key Considerations, in One Convenient Resource.... http://img831.images...dated110110.gif

Visual Report : "The First Bullet Impact Into President Kennedy: while JFK was Still Hidden

Under the 'magic-limbed-ricochet-tree' ".... http://img504.images...k1102308ms8.gif

Visual Report : Reality versus C.A.D. : the Real World, versus, Garbage-In, Garbage-Out.... http://img248.images...ealityvscad.gif

Discovery : "Very Close JFK Assassination Witness ROSEMARY WILLIS Zapruder Film

Documented 2nd Headsnap:

West, Ultrafast, and Directly Towards the Grassy Knoll".... http://educationforu...?showtopic=2394

T ogether

E veryone

A chieves

M ore

For the United States:

http://www.dhs.gov/dhspublic/

Will this forum be filmed? And shown over the Internet.

Kathy C lennon440@gmail.com

David,

Excellent post! I think Thomas Purvis is not quite up-to-speed on the extensive debate over Clint Hill's testimony: that he rushed forward, pushed Jackie down, lay across their bodies and peered down into a fist-sized hole in the back of JFK's head! What you have found, of course, is confirmation that he was lying across their bodies--all before the limo reached the TUP. If Tom wants more on this, there is a detailed discussion at "Who's telling the truth: Clint Hill or the Zapruder film?", http://www.veteranst...-zapruder-film/ In this context, the term "proof" refers to evidence that tends to establish a certain conclusion, which can receive additional support from other evidence.

Jim

Uh, thanks Jim... except I was not trying to justify other portions of Hill's testimony... just the contradiction between the testimony of Kellerman and the Zfilm

To state that Hill was already in the seat and across their bodies before the TUP, when we see full well that he hovers over them while hangin on for dear life.. is too far a leap for me. Add to this his own testimony and I believe you read to much into his statement.

This is obviously AFTER the TUP and he is still not "laying across their bodies" in the literal sense, but the figurative... as are most of the descriptions you like to use...

You promoting the literal meaning when it's obvious they were talking figuratively is misleading, imo.

So no Jim, my post - nor Kellerman or Hill's testimony does NOT confirm his performing these activities BEFORE TUP.

In fact, these images prove he did NOT "lay across their bodies"... in fact, if you search for the word "ACROSS" in his testimony you find out what he was really laying across...

Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate on the speed at which the President's car traveled from the point of the shooting to Parkland Hospital?

Mr. HILL. It is a little bit hard for me to judge, since I was lying across the rear portion of the automobile. I had no trouble staying in that particular position--until we approached the hospital, I recall, I believe it was a left-hand turn and I started slipping off to the right-hand portion of the car. So I would say that we went 60, maybe 65 at the most.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to secure a handhold or a leghold or any sort of a hold on the automobile as you moved forward?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir. I had my legs--I had my body above the rear seat, and my legs hooked down into the rear seat, one foot outside the car.

He may have said somehting about laying across theur bodies at some future point... but not for the WCR. In fact, if we are to take him at his word regarding the hole he sees, I think it only appropriate to take him at his word regarding his trip to Parkland

Yet most disturbing is this line of Q&A.... as Purvis has tried to prove, the SECOND SHOT was 313 in the z film... AND

he corroborates the idea that it is JFK's HAND we see in that photo and NOT his foot, (I think the small item in front of JFK's hand is Hill's foot)...

Mr. SPECTER. When, in relationship to the second shot, did Mrs. Kennedy move out of the rear seat?

Mr. HILL. Just after it.

Mr. SPECTER. You say that it appeared that she was reaching as if something was coming over to the rear portion of the car, back in the area where you were coming to?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there anything back there that you observed, that she might have been reaching for?

Mr. HILL. I thought I saw something come off the back, too, but I cannot say that there was. I do know that the next day we found the portion of the President's head.

Mr. SPECTER. Where did you find that portion of the President's head?

Mr. HILL. It was found in the street. It was turned in, I believe, by a medical student or somebody in Dallas.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any difficulty maintaining your balance on the back of the car after you had come up on the top of it?

Mr. HILL. Not until we turned off to enter the Parkland Hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, what action did you take specifically with respect to placing Mrs. Kennedy back in the rear seat?

Mr. HILL. I simply just pushed and she moved--somewhat voluntarily--right back into the same seat she was in. The President--when she had attempted to get out onto the trunk of the car, his body apparently did not move too much, because when she got back into the car he was at that time, when I got on top of the car, face up in her lap.

Mr. SPECTER. And that was, after she was back in the rear seat?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And where were the President's legs at that time?

Mr. HILL. Inside the car.

In fact, from the available evidence that we can actually believe is authentic...

the events you describe happened much later and well after the limo would EVER have been filmed by Zapruder....

Bell shows Hill still almost vertical as he is seen in

McIntyre and as he is seen later in

Moore?? (I forget who took the hand that becomes a foot photo - plus I tried to include here but it would not let me add a third image.. i will post it next.)

Here's a photo.

Kathy C

David,

Excellent post! I think Thomas Purvis is not quite up-to-speed on the extensive debate over Clint Hill's testimony: that he rushed forward, pushed Jackie down, lay across their bodies and peered down into a fist-sized hole in the back of JFK's head! What you have found, of course, is confirmation that he was lying across their bodies--all before the limo reached the TUP. If Tom wants more on this, there is a detailed discussion at "Who's telling the truth: Clint Hill or the Zapruder film?", http://www.veteranst...-zapruder-film/ In this context, the term "proof" refers to evidence that tends to establish a certain conclusion, which can receive additional support from other evidence.

Jim

Uh, thanks Jim... except I was not trying to justify other portions of Hill's testimony... just the contradiction between the testimony of Kellerman and the Zfilm

To state that Hill was already in the seat and across their bodies before the TUP, when we see full well that he hovers over them while hangin on for dear life.. is too far a leap for me. Add to this his own testimony and I believe you read to much into his statement.

This is obviously AFTER the TUP and he is still not "laying across their bodies" in the literal sense, but the figurative... as are most of the descriptions you like to use...

You promoting the literal meaning when it's obvious they were talking figuratively is misleading, imo.

So no Jim, my post - nor Kellerman or Hill's testimony does NOT confirm his performing these activities BEFORE TUP.

In fact, these images prove he did NOT "lay across their bodies"... in fact, if you search for the word "ACROSS" in his testimony you find out what he was really laying across...

Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate on the speed at which the President's car traveled from the point of the shooting to Parkland Hospital?

Mr. HILL. It is a little bit hard for me to judge, since I was lying across the rear portion of the automobile. I had no trouble staying in that particular position--until we approached the hospital, I recall, I believe it was a left-hand turn and I started slipping off to the right-hand portion of the car. So I would say that we went 60, maybe 65 at the most.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to secure a handhold or a leghold or any sort of a hold on the automobile as you moved forward?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir. I had my legs--I had my body above the rear seat, and my legs hooked down into the rear seat, one foot outside the car.

He may have said somehting about laying across theur bodies at some future point... but not for the WCR. In fact, if we are to take him at his word regarding the hole he sees, I think it only appropriate to take him at his word regarding his trip to Parkland

Yet most disturbing is this line of Q&A.... as Purvis has tried to prove, the SECOND SHOT was 313 in the z film... AND

he corroborates the idea that it is JFK's HAND we see in that photo and NOT his foot, (I think the small item in front of JFK's hand is Hill's foot)...

Mr. SPECTER. When, in relationship to the second shot, did Mrs. Kennedy move out of the rear seat?

Mr. HILL. Just after it.

Mr. SPECTER. You say that it appeared that she was reaching as if something was coming over to the rear portion of the car, back in the area where you were coming to?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there anything back there that you observed, that she might have been reaching for?

Mr. HILL. I thought I saw something come off the back, too, but I cannot say that there was. I do know that the next day we found the portion of the President's head.

Mr. SPECTER. Where did you find that portion of the President's head?

Mr. HILL. It was found in the street. It was turned in, I believe, by a medical student or somebody in Dallas.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any difficulty maintaining your balance on the back of the car after you had come up on the top of it?

Mr. HILL. Not until we turned off to enter the Parkland Hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, what action did you take specifically with respect to placing Mrs. Kennedy back in the rear seat?

Mr. HILL. I simply just pushed and she moved--somewhat voluntarily--right back into the same seat she was in. The President--when she had attempted to get out onto the trunk of the car, his body apparently did not move too much, because when she got back into the car he was at that time, when I got on top of the car, face up in her lap.

Mr. SPECTER. And that was, after she was back in the rear seat?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And where were the President's legs at that time?

Mr. HILL. Inside the car.

In fact, from the available evidence that we can actually believe is authentic...

the events you describe happened much later and well after the limo would EVER have been filmed by Zapruder....

Bell shows Hill still almost vertical as he is seen in

McIntyre and as he is seen later in

Moore?? (I forget who took the hand that becomes a foot photo - plus I tried to include here but it would not let me add a third image.. i will post it next.)

Here's a photo.