Kathleen Collins

How can we believe in anything that came from the limo? Photos exist to attest that LBJ had SS men cleaning the limo with rag and bucket and putting the top on the car. Kathy

This is one candidate: Ashton This is what I was talking about in post #6. You shoo-shooed it and now you come up with just the type of device I was describing. What do you say to that? Also, you beg people not to destroy this thread. Then you go ahead and do it with Purvis, asking him about whether he learned how to brainwash somebody! Kathy

Then why did Kennedy clutch at his throat as though he was choking? Kathy

If there was no bullet wound of any kind on his neck, why on the Zapruder film, do we see President Kennedy clutching his throat? He seems to want to undo his tie. His head, on this doctored film, seems to be imploding to me until the shot that came from the front right. Could an extremely thin missile, say a dart from an umbrella-fashioned weapon, have entered his neck from the front right? And the Stemmons Freeway sign conveniently inserted into the film to obscure where Kennedy was first hit with whatever he was choking on? Kathy

Kathy: The theory that Karyn was offed by the mob to cool the investigative ardor of her father is one I hadn't heard before. I'm wondering about your sources for the info regarding the visits to Palm Springs (concurrent, I assume, but not connected) by Kupcinet and Dorfman , and also regarding the info about the Dorfman-Irv Kupcinet conversation. Could you supply those sources? Thanks. Bob Cox Dear Bob, I am all too happy to give you the sources. In Kup: a Man, an Era, a City, Irv Kupcinet wrote that after Ruby shot Oswald he tracked down Paul "Red" Dorfman at Palm Springs. Page 176 Hardcover. Bonus Books, 1988 Karyn went with Andrew Prine, Lynn Loring and Earl Holliman to Palm Springs because of Kennedy's assassination. Page 69, Crime Wave, "The Glamour Jungle" by James Ellroy. Softback, Vintage Crime. Also "The Glamour Jungle" by James Ellroy in GQ, December, 1998 There is a photo of the 2 couples in Palm Springs at: thecloakofdarkness.blogspot.com Scroll down a bit. Kathy

Lee, please don't "bugger off" on the Jesuits. I have read allegations that the Vatican and the Jesuits knew Kennedy was going to be hit. They did not like his politics. But they kept publicly quiet about it. Supposedly, that little fat creep, Cardinal Spellman, knew and was glad again to be the main Catholic in the United States. Or at least that's how he viewed himself. No, the upper echelons of Catholicism did not like Kennedy. I went to a Jesuit college. They hate women. Please keep investigating them. Do you know about Malachy Martin? Kathy No clue what Malachy Martin is - however I have come across Cardinal Spellman's name many times. He is mentioned in Unholy Trinity as having delivered the message that 'quisling' Bishop Rozman could find sanctuary in the United States - that despite US and British intel having officially decided that he was one of the real criminals that had to be handed over to Tito. Spellman also led some kind of propaganda campaign with respect to false accusations against Nazi criminals living in the US. I have always been interested in the Jesuits - just not enough info. I pulled together some stuff someplace, but then never got around to putting it all together. One particular Jesuit connection that has been covered on the Forum before is the one concerning Dr Jose Rivera. There are certain schools that are affiliated with the Jesuits that also come quickly to mind - with respect to connections with the assassination. For example - the alleged Lake Pontchartain film of a 'camp' that may have all been some form of propaganda piece [from what I took away from Baker's books] - discovered and vanished at Georgetown University. Oswald and his lecture for his Jesuit cousin. Loyola and Rivera. The other Rivera that claimed he was an infilitration agent of the Jesuits [Chick publications]. Still stuck with why Fermin de Goicoechea would bother penetrating the International weekend [if it was Fermin], with it's 'Religion in the modern state' theme, unless there was some kind of hidden agenda. I think I may have mentioned someplace else about concerns about dual allegiances. Apparently it is not enough that our current President does not have to talk about his membership in a secret society - for example. Amazing. This should be grounds for dismissal. The information provided in Unholy Trinity provides sufficient precedent for application of a unified Church and expansion of Catholicism in opposition to the godlessness of Communism following WWII, here in the US - where they loosed thousands of criminals instead of putting them on trial and executing them for the murder and torture of thousands of innocents. But since the Pope could justify it, I guess it must be okay. Last point on this note, it was humorous to note that the assistance provided to the Nazis fleeing retribution and justice was not handled by the Church, per se, but by Rogues - as per the official church view - sound familiar? - lee Lee, Malachy Martin was a Jesuit who turned on them because he saw sex and devil worshipping going on in the Vatican. And that they killed Pope John Paul I via poison. He wrote a series of books about the Jesuits, but I think in a novelistic form. Have not read them yet. Malachy told the Pope (not sure which one, but I think in the '70's) he was giving up his vow of poverty and some other vow, but was going to keep his vow of celibacy. (Cynically I wonder if he just couldn't get it up anymore -- how easy.) The worst thing he could done was share intimacy with a woman. No, they don't like that. Kathy

Recently, I found out that on the Assassination weekend, Karyn Kupcinet with friends and mobster Paul "Red" Dorfman were both in Palm Springs. While there, Dorfman was tracked down by Irv Kupcinet who asked about Ruby shooting Oswald. Dorfman said, "Sparky is the last guy you'd expect to do this. He was a nebbish sort of guy." I think Dorfman was unnerved a bit by Irv's tenaciousness and eagerness. I think possibly Dorfman saw Karyn in Palm Springs that weekend. And maybe an idea sprung to mind about keeping Irv Kupcinet away from Ruby and the Chicago angle of the assassination. To kill Kupcinet would be too obvious. But to kill his daughter, whom every Chicagoan knew, would take away any interest Irv would have about Ruby. He would be in no condition to investigate the Chicago Mob. Possibly, a plan was afoot to commit an outrageous crime in Chicago, sometime after the assassination, to get the heat off the Mob. And Dorfman decided to kill Karyn to shock all of Chicago. Possibly, there'd be talk of nothing else. I myself was shocked when I looked at microfilmed Chicago Tribune and saw the awful, large black headline (from memory): KUPCINET GIRL DEAD. My stomach knotted. That is the latest re the Kennedy theory. She did not have foreknowledge and neither did her father. Her father hadn't seen Ruby in decades. Irv knew nothing about the assassination before it happened. IMO it was to shock Chicago. Kathy

You sound like fun. Kathy

Lee, please don't "bugger off" on the Jesuits. I have read allegations that the Vatican and the Jesuits knew Kennedy was going to be hit. They did not like his politics. But they kept publicly quiet about it. Supposedly, that little fat creep, Cardinal Spellman, knew and was glad again to be the main Catholic in the United States. Or at least that's how he viewed himself. No, the upper echelons of Catholicism did not like Kennedy. I went to a Jesuit college. They hate women. Please keep investigating them. Do you know about Malachy Martin? Kathy

Wallis Simpson, I believe. I love Vanity Fair. Murder and scandal among the rich and famous. Right up my alley. Kathy

Forgive me if this show aired already or it's common knowledge it's being made. But according to tabloidbaby.blogspot.com, Tom Hanks and HBO are trying to work out a deal in which Vincent Bugliosi's book on the Kennedy Assassination will be turned into a multi-part miniseries. They're going to produce this awful lie and people will be lead to believe it. I guess it's good I don't get HBO. No matter how hard Kennedy researchers try to explain and prove things that are substantially different from the Warren Commission's obfuscation of the Crime of the Century, something in this govt is still trying to suppress the truth. What will people believe 50 years from now? That Oswald was a dork and he killed the President? If he was trying to get attention for himself for killing Kennedy, why would he not tell reporters in the police station that he was the killer? He never "admitted" it to them. He asked for legal representation and said he was a Patsy. Kathy

Crossfire was the first book I read that mentioned Karyn Kupcinet as the first witness after Oswald to die, due to her preknowledge of the Assassination. This info was taken from the legendary Penn Jones, Jr. I have never read his books, but I'd like to get ahold of Forgive My Grief II. Jones is quoted as saying Karyn, a disturbed woman, tried to place a person-to-person call to Chicago. She didn't get through, but the operators heard her saying, "They're going to kill the President." Twenty minutes later, they did. The telephone company manager called the FBI. It was printed in many newspapers the next day. It seems to me that Penn Jones -- if he is quoted correctly -- has the mind of a novelist. Years later he took a true story about this call which occurred in California and connected it to Karyn Kupcinet, who had died 6 days later. Jones had appeared on Kup's Show in 1966. It may have been here that he found out about the unsolved murder of Karyn Kupcinet, and the wheels started turning. In my opinion, she had no foreknowledge of the assassination. If she was killed in any way having to do with the assassination or Ruby, it was to get at Irv, her reporter father, who knew everyone in Chicago. Re Jim Marrs, I think his book was comprehensive and hard to put down. I believe he strove to tell the truth and may have been influenced by Penn Jones' writing. Kathy

In Men on the Sixth Floor by Glen Sample and Texas in the Morning by Madeleine Brown, as reviewed by Walt Brown, the authors tell us that Ralph Geb had something to do with the "mysterious Saul" and was a friend to Mac Wallace. Was Ralph Geb the mystery man photographed in Mexico City? Mac Wallace was on the sixth floor of the TSBD. Was Geb with "Saul" during the Assassination? A fingerprint of Mac Wallace's was found on a box on the sixth floor after the Assassination. Mac Wallace was "Lyndon's Boy." Could somebody please tell me how Ralph Geb played into this? Kathy

Kathy, Paul Dorfman below. Sorry, the quality is not that great. Technically, Paul Dorfman was Allen's step-father. Also, if you haven't done so already, may I suggest seeking out articles by Victor Reisel. He wrote extensively on the Dorfman family and also the connections to Jack Ruby. Sorry, no images of Shannon Murchison but I will have a look around. Cheers, James Shannon Murchison was in her 40's when she died in recent years. They said she died from Listeria. And that her liver was badly damaged. So the coroner says, she must have taken a lot of acetaminophen. She had a black eye and was bruised all over her body. The coroner said, maybe the liver damage caused the bruising. Then he said, whatever, it didn't cause her death. I know she was on psychiatric drugs. But a woman with money wouldn't be taking acetaminophen if she was in pain; obviously they weren't working. Why not get prescription pain pills? I think this coroner is crooked or has been frightened by the power of the Murchison's in Dallas. Thanks for the photo of Paul Red Dorfman. Dorfman was in Palm Springs the same weekend (Kennedy Assassination) as Karyn Kupcinet and received a phone call from Irv Kupcinet, asking about Ruby. Coincidence? I don't know how built up Palm Springs was then. It makes me wonder if their paths crossed. Kathy

I have been looking high and low for a photo of Paul Red Dorfman, who had ties to Hoffa and Ruby. He was from Chicago, a racketeers mobster, involved with the Waste Handler's Union. His son was Allen Dorfman, whose picture I have. Thank you. I appreciate it. Here's another request for a photo: The late Shannon Murchison from Dallas, Clint III's ex wife. She died a very suspicious death. Thank you again. Kathy Collins

A trifle -- OK, I missed something. What does Jayne Mansfield have to do with Oswald, and what the hell is a "domino room"? I know Mansfield came from Texas and I know that the domino room was the lunch room of TSBD. But why is it called the "domino" room? Because of its decor? Kathy

Terry, I agree with you. Nixon made big mistakes with his bombing and withdrawal with Honor. But I've always felt sorry for him after Watergate. A penny ante burglary and the President has to resign. He was the butt of more jokes on TV, radio, etc. for so long; more than any other person I can remember (except maybe O.J. Simpson). He was so proud to be President at his Inaugurations. I think he felt he was doing his mother proud. I think that was his drive. But this thing happened while he was in China and he had nowhere to go exept down. He was alcoholic and also took sleeping pills, according to Billy Graham. These tendencies grew as he was castigated. Also, people were surprised that he cursed so much. The funniest thing to me is when he was with Haldeman, he'd refer to Henry Kissinger as "Jewboy." For me, finding out that he cursed made me like him. Under all the pressure, he deteriorated physically and mentally. But possibly after a drink or two, he gave such a great Au Revoir speech to his staff and America. Another one bites the dust. Kathy

According to John Armstrong's tome, Harvey and Lee, Lee Oswald and Mac Wallace were in the sniper's nest, Lee firing at Kennedy. Mac Wallace hadn't shown up for work Nov.22, 1963. His fingerprint was lifted from a cardboard box. Mac Wallace was known as Lyndon's Boy. He killed someone in the past and the judge gave him a 5-year suspended sentence. Lee was trying to implicate Harvey as the assassin. Kathy

OK. Kathy

Notice how many women are wearing white socks. This must have been a fashion for women in Texas. I know NJ women of that day didn't wear dresses and socks together. Kathy Collins

You buy my novel (if it's ever published) and I'll buy yours. Kathy

I think there's a lot more to the story than that. Dorothy covered Audie more than once in gossip type articles in the Washington post on Murphy back in 1954 - one called 'Audie goes a-patchin.' I don't know what occurred on the episode of What's My Line, but if Dorothy didn't figure out who he was - well, that's like 'Quiz Show.' If there's anything to be said for the book published by Gary Weans, Audie Murphy came into possession of some very significant top secret documents, by way of John Tower, concerning the assassination, in 1964. See Chapter 44 of 'There's a fish in the courthouse.' Murphy's involvement in trying to spring Jimmy Hoffa is also worth noting, in that friends said he was looking to tap into the Teamster's pension fund [to save his failing businesses] - in the same way Trafficante and others had. Murphy died in a plane crash which could be deemed suspicious. Wean certainly thought so. Murphy travelled frequently to Ventura County, was friends with Bill Decker, had some honorary title with the Ventura Police department, and frequented Oxnard - the location of the phone call warning of the impending assassination of JFK, 20 minutes beforehand. Murphy was on Mae Brussel's 'Mysterious Deaths' list. Bizarre factoid - Murphy gave the foreward to the film 'War is hell' - which was showing 11/22/63 at the Dallas Theatre, built by Howard Hughes, where Oswald sought to find his contact that fateful afternoon. Murphy was 'in the music business.' All that remains is one clue that Murphy may have turned over a mysterious package to Dorothy Kilgallen, and you'd have more than enough motive to exterminate her and anyone even vaguely connected to her. I keep expecting to find an Audie Murphy / Howard Hughes connection, but haven't yet beyond the fact that Hughes stole Murphy's gal back in 1946. Maybe Lee Israel knows something about an Audie Murphy / Dorothy Kilgallen connection? Here's another weird connection. Karyn Kupcinet was in a film with Audie Murphy, The Wild and the Innocent, 1959. She appeared under the name Tammy Windsor. Her father was a very classy guy with his own talk show and column in the Chicago Sun-Times: Irv Kupcinet. He was as great as Dorothy Kilgallen and Walter Winchell. When his daughter was murdered 6 days after President Kennedy, Walter Winchell went to Hollywood to find the killer. He didn't and the murder went unsolved. Irv was digging deep into the Chicago angle of the assassination. She might have been killed to shut him up. Such killers will not kill the person, but will kill someone the person loves. Karyn Kupcinet was not murdered. Her father, Irv suffered a lot of pain at the hands of conspiracy theorists who made his daughter look like a slut who hobnobbed with criminals. She knew nothing about the assassination, and neither did her father. Irv is dead now, but Karyn's younger brother Jerry still suffers emotionally because of these false allegations. Very recently, somebody worked hard on Karyn's Wikipedia article to debunk the theory. Let's see if I can post a link to it successfully. If it doesn't work, then please visit Wikipedia yourself and find the piece on "karyn kupcinet." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karyn_Kupcinet I have edited some info about Karyn Kupcinet into wikipedia. Firstly, she was murdered. Her father and mother said so. I suspect the Chicago Mob. Secondly, the killer tried to make it look like a robbery, rape killing. Her house was plundered, but nothing was missing but her methamphetamine pills. In her birth canal was a "copious" amount of what may have been semen, but it was decomposed. Lastly, someone in her circle may have killed her. In no uncertain terms, the Kupcinets believed she was murdered by her new downstairs neighbor, the late David Lange, brother of actress Hope Lange. Another thing I want to address: Was her door locked or unlocked? I have always read it was unlocked. Now I read that her door was locked -- though this doesn't matter if the killer found it unlocked and committed the deed, then locked it going out. (It was that type of door.) But my understanding was that Mark Goddard turned the knob and the door popped open, making him go downstairs to his wife in the car and asking her to come up. David Lange told another woman living in the apartment complex (Monterey Apartments on N. Sweetzer, West Hollywood) that he was the killer and that actually, he went up to Karyn's apartment on Friday, after Thanksgiving and the door opened, but he didn't go in. However, he did just walk into the woman's apartment, to whom he was now speaking, without knocking or permission. Why wouldn't he go into Karyn's apartment? I have a whole theory about Lange, which I'll save for now. I just want to get across that there were many inaccuracies on the Wikipedia Karyn Kupcinet matter. I have tried to correct some of them. Better to go to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Karyn_Kupcinet Kathy

I am going to look into Paul Dorfman. I understand he's dead. Here's a scenario: Say he's outside a hotel on a chaise lounge. Someone comes out with a phone and tells him he has a call. It turns out to be Irv Kupcinet. He is asking about Ruby. Dorfman knows Ruby is going to kill Oswald. Now he has a very excited Irv Kupcinet on the phone asking about Ruby. "Sparky wouldn't do that," Dorfman feigns, thinking this is all we need. When he gets off the phone with Kupcinet, he sees Karyn Kupcinet. He's seen numerous photos of her in the Chicago Sun-Times. Somehow, her being where he is and where he has just spoken to her father unsettles him. He picks up the phone and calls a thug and says, "I want you to kill Irv Kupcinet's daughter....." Of course, this is overkill. Another mobster might have acted differently. Kathy http://www.metnews.com/articles/perspectives080902.htm "Although he attested in his letter to Dorfman’s good character, Covelli admitted to the Daily News that he had only met the defendant two or three times. He noted, however, that he had known Dorfman’s late father (actually step-father), Paul Dorfman, for 50 years. That was a damning admission by the judge. Paul Dorfman was a known mobster. The San Francisco Chronicle, in an article on Nov. 18, 1996, described him as “a leading figure in the Chicago mob” who “ran the Waste Handlers Union in Chicago in 1939 with Jack Ruby, Lee Harvey Oswald’s future killer.” *********************** So Dorfman wasn't a guy you'd fool around with -- he was major Mob. Killing Irv Kupcinet would cause more scrutiny by the law, especially after the Assassination. But he could have ordered someone to kill Irv's daughter. I think she was being stalked the last 3 days of her life. Kathy

I learned last night that Karyn went to Palm Springs with Andrew Prine and friends the Assassination weekend. Irv Kupcinet, her father and Chicago columnist, called Paul Dorfman when Ruby shot Oswald. Dorfman was a slight man with a benign demeanor, as Bobby Kennedy described him in The Enemy Within. He was also Hoffa's Chicago ally. Irv tracked down Dorfman in Palm Springs that weekend. Could Dorfman and Karyn Kupcinet have met, interacted? Could Dorfman, a man with powerful connections, have decided to stop Irv's investigation into the Chicago angle of the Kennedy Assassination? Karyn was dead 4 days later. Kathy I am going to look into Paul Dorfman. I understand he's dead. Here's a scenario: Say he's outside a hotel on a chaise lounge. Someone comes out with a phone and tells him he has a call. It turns out to be Irv Kupcinet. He is asking about Ruby. Dorfman knows Ruby is going to kill Oswald. Now he has a very excited Irv Kupcinet on the phone asking about Ruby. "Sparky wouldn't do that," Dorfman feigns, thinking this is all we need. When he gets off the phone with Kupcinet, he sees Karyn Kupcinet. He's seen numerous photos of her in the Chicago Sun-Times. Somehow, her being where he is and where he has just spoken to her father unsettles him. He picks up the phone and calls a thug and says, "I want you to kill Irv Kupcinet's daughter....." Of course, this is overkill. Another mobster might have acted differently. Kathy

Of course with Bush '41, the Secret Service had their orders: If Bush dies, shoot Quayle. I believe Bush '41 chose Quayle for just that reason. Nobody wanted Quayle as President, and how many Presidents can you kill? Kathy