Ray Mitcham

"If you will read carefully, you will notice that I placed the word "run" in quotation marks. That means it is a figure of speech. You are taking it literally. That is your literary mistake. " Sorry, Paul, It wasn't a figure of speech. You were quoting what Adams said to Belin. Mr. BELIN - Those stairs would be in the northwest comer of the building, is that correct?Miss ADAMS - That's correct.Mr. BELIN - You took those stairs. Were you walking or running as you went down the stairs?Miss ADAMS - I was running. We were running. Mr. BELIN - What kind of shoes did you have on?Miss ADAMS - Three-inch heels. I just showed that you were wrong when you tried to show that women couldn't run in high heels in order to get the "facts" to fit your time line. They can. Get over it.

No You said the following "As for "returning to the building" both the question and the answer remain ambiguous to me. It is possible to be too literal when the attorney is being deliberately vague, IMHO. Also, Belin asked her about how she could be so sure about her 5 minute estimate, and Vickie's response was that she and Sandra were "running." Excuse me -- but nobody can "run" while wearing three-inch heels. The language is too ambiguous. " I have demonstrated that they can. If you think I am being too literal, maybe you shouldn't make assumptions. I you really believe normal women can't run in high heels then have a look at some guys doing the same.

Not at all. You said "nobody can run in high heels." The video showed that loads of women can run in high heels if they so wish. You were wrong.

You really do spout a load of rubbish, Paul

Richard, he said a motorcycle policeman in his Warren Commission testimony. Truly said that they both (Truly and Baker) walked up to the fifth floor where they then got the elevator up to the seventh floor.

"A police officer came up on the elevator and looked all around the fifth floor and left the floor." Mr. BALL. Did you see anybody with him? Mr. WILLIAMS. I did not. Mr. BALL. You were only able to see the top of his helmet? Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. Mr. BALL. You could only see the top of his helmet Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; that is the only thing I saw about it. Williams didn't see Truly come up with Baker, which if they had appeared together, onto the fifth floor from the stairs, he would have. Seems that Williams saw Baker's helmet when he poked his head out of the elevator and didn't see Truly. Richard, love it when others join in and put other ideas in. It's only by all working together that we will eventually complete the jigsaw puzzle.

Like you I don't believe the second floor encounter took place, as believe that Baker and Truly actually went up on the elevator. . For one, Baker's first day affidavit says nothing about the second floor and he says he saw a man walking away from the stairs. This morphs into the second floor encounter after Oswald was dead. And this is an interesting little tit bit. from Williams to the W.C. being interviewed by Ball. "Mr. BALL. Now, when you were questioned by the FBI agents, talking to Mr. Odum and Mr. Griffin, they reported in writing here that while you were standing at the west end of the building on the fifth floor, a police officer came up on the elevator and looked all around the fifth floor and left the floor. Did you see anything like that? Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, at the time I was up there I saw a motorcycle policeman. He came up. And the only thing I saw of him was his white helmet. Mr. BALL. What did he [do]Mr. WILLIAMS. He just came around, and around to the elevator. Mr. BALL. Which elevator? Mr. WILLIAMS. I believe it was the east elevator. Who the hell was this policeman, who came up in the elevator, if it wasn't Baker?

I disagree, Paul. What they did was use what Oswald said to try to incriminate him by adding a few extra words to his testimony. "There was a commotion outside, which he [Oswald] later rushed downstairs to go out to see what was going on." Remove that phraseand what Oswald says meets with the situation of being at the front of the TSBD before th shooting. According to the official line, Oswald casually spoke to Hines after the shooting and after being accosted by Baker and Truly. If that was so, he hardly "rushed downstairs"

So many assumptions in your post, Paul. PaulTrejo "I have no major issue with Pierce Allman's story. It is within the realm of possibility. The only fishy thing is that he didn't realize that LHO was the man he saw at the TSBD door until THREE WEEKS LATER. That could smack of a case of mistaken identity." Another coincidence that Allman's story dovetails with Oswald's alleged comments? "Too many people claim to have seen LHO in this or that context -- most of them just mistaken about it (e.g. the guy at the gun store, installing a scope for an "Oswald" who didn't even look like LHO)." The guy in the gun shop said he fixed a scope for a guy called Oswald and had the ticket to prove it. "LHO was, however, stupid enough to hand over his rifle to the JFK shooters that morning -- so LHO did know that something was wrong immediately after the shots were fired -- and that he had to go home to get his pistol, and that he might have to shoot somebody with it." "LHO was not the JFK shooter. Yet, LHO knew who the shooters were, and LHO kept their identities secret from the Press -- likely hoping they would come to "give him legal assistance." The demand for New York attorney John Abt, BTW, was very likely a secret code message to the conspirators." Wow, you are a mind reader, as well?

Mr. HOLMES. There was a commotion outside, which he [Oswald] later rushed downstairs to go out to see what was going on. He didn't say whether he took the stairs down. He didn't say whether he took the elevator down. But he went downstairs, and as he went out the front, it seems as though he did have a coke with him, or he stopped at the coke machine, or somebody else was trying to get a coke, but there was a coke involved. He mentioned something about a coke. But a police officer asked him who he was, and just as he started to identify himself, his superintendent came up and said, "He is one of our men." And the policeman said, "Well, you step aside for a little bit." “Then another man [Pierce Allman see below] rushed in past him as he started out the door, in this vestibule part of it, and flashed some kind of credential and he said, "Where is your telephone, where is your telephone, and said I am so and so, where is your telephone." And he said, "I didn't look at the credential. I don't know who he said he was, and I just pointed to the phone and said, 'there it is,' and went on out the door." [If you take the words in bold out of Holmes report then it ties up perfectly with the story from Pierce Allman.] Pierce Allman was a rookie reporter when he accidentally ran into Lee Harvey Oswald in the moments immediately after President Kennedy was shot. 'He didn't appear stressed in any way,' Allman said of Oswald. Allman was in the crowd when shots were fired at the President's motorcade, and he saw people leaning out the fifth-floor windows of the Texas School Book Depository and looking up to the level above. 'There were three guys in the fifth floor window. And they were literally hanging out of the window and looking up and pointing up,' Allman told CBS. 'I thought, "I need to get to a phone and call." So I ran down the sidewalk and up the steps and into the doorway of the depository building.' As soon as he got into the building, he realized that he needed help finding a phone in the building so he could file the report. 'There was a guy standing in the doorway, and I said, "Where's the phone?" And he jerked his thumb and said, "In there!" And I said, "Thank you,"’ he told CBS. The moment was so fleeting that even though Oswald's picture was splashed across the papers and television news programs in the coming days, Allman did not realize that Oswald was the man he spoke to until three weeks later. If Allman met Oswald immediately after the shooting, Oswald couldn't have got down there in time if he had been on the sixth floor. Plus these comments about the first floor Ken Biffle, Dallas morning News reporter overheard Truly telling Fritz that he saw Oswald near the storage room on the first floor. (There is a small storage room alongside the main entrance of the TSBD) Occhus Campbell, Vice President of the TSBD, was quoted by the New York Herald Tribune, 23/11/63, as stating “Shortly after the shooting, we raced back into the bulding. We saw Oswald in a small storage room on the ground floor. Looks like Oswald was near the front doors after all.

Yes,I believe he did. When I said above that Oswald couldn't have been with Shelley after the shooting, I meant after Shelley had visited the rail yards with Lovely. (I must be more careful with how I word things) As Shelley said they got back to the TSBD after ten minutes, how could Adams have seen them at the elevator on the first floor? She certainly didn't take ten minutes to get down the stairs. This barrel of fish smells rotten. Sorry, Sandy, just seen your post above.

Oswald said he was having lunch in the lunch room when the two black guys entered the back of the TSBD. He then went up to the second floor for a coke before going down to join Shelley et al at the entrance. I agree it would be a silly thing to say if it didn't happen. As for Oswald not being noticed. remember he was a relatively new employee, kept himself to himself, and was a pretty innocuous guy. Re the last part if you read my reply to Sandy you will see I have already admitted I was incorrect in saying there was a contradiction.

One way would be that he left after the encounter with Baker and Truly on the front steps rather than on the supposed second floor meeting.

Good points, Alistair. Oswald also apparently said that Shelley told him to go home, as there would be no more work done that day. When could this have taken place, except after the shooting and before Shelley left with Lovely?

Your quite right, Sandy. My bad. However if Shelley was with Oswald out front, then it must have been before the shooting, not after. Oswald must have seen Shelley out front otherwise how would he know he was there?

Try this link, Steve. https://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/search-hints.html

Shelley “Lee Harvey Oswald worked under my supervision. He was at work when I arrived for work on November 22, 1963 at about 8 a.m. I specifically recall seeing Oswald on the first floor at about 11.50 a.m. This day. He was going about his regular duties filling orders at that time. I did not see Oswald again after this until I saw him at the Dallas police Dept.” Yet... Mr. BALL - Did you see him from time to time during that day? Mr. SHELLEY - I am sure I did. I do remember seeing him when I came down to. eat lunch about 10 to 12. Mr. BALL - Where had you been working? Mr. SHELLEY - I had been on the sixth floor with the boys laying that floor that morning. Mr. BALL - What time did you go down and eat lunch? Mr. SHELLEY - It was around 10 'til. Mr. BALL - Did you eat your lunch? Mr. SHELLEY - No, I started eating. Mr. BALL - Where did you start eating it? Mr. SHELLEY - In my office next to Mr. Truly's and 1 ate part of it which I do usually and finish up later on in the day but I went outside then to the front, Mr. BALL - Why did you go to the front? Mr. SHELLEY - Oh, several people were out there waiting to watch the motorcade and I went out to join them. Mr. BALL - And who was out there? Mr. SHELLEY - Well, there was Lloyd Viles of McGraw-Hill, Sarah Stanton, she's with Texas School Book, and Wesley Frazier and Billy Lovelady joined us shortly afterwards. Mr. BALL - You were standing where? Mr. SHELLEY - Just outside the glass doors there. Seems if you are going to tell porkies, you should get your story straight.

According to Shelley (W.C. Testimony. "Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, sir; they started coming in pretty fast.Mr. BALL - Did you go with them any place?Mr. SHELLEY - Yes; Mr. Truly left me guarding the elevator, not to let anybody up and down the elevator or stairway and some plainclothesmen came in; I don't know whether they were Secret Service or FBI or what but they wanted me to take them upstairs, so we went up and started searching the various floors.Mr. BALL - Did you go up on the sixth floor? Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, sir.Mr. BALL - Were you there when they found anything up there?Mr. SHELLEY - I was, I believe I was on the sixth floor when they found the gun but we were searching all parts of that floor." After he returned to the TSBD he never went anywhere near the front door, so how could Oswald have been with him after the shooting. Therefore, he must have been with Shelley before the shooting. No wonder they tried to erase Shelley's name from the above report.

Yes they are, John. The red arrow shows just how much higher her shoulders are in the two photos. Try it yourself. Put on a long coat, pretend you are raising your hands to take a photo and note how the hem of your coat rises. p.s. What is your theory of the two women being "different"?

Thanks, Bob, and a Happy New Year to you.

According to Shelley, “Immediately following the shooting, Billy N. Lovelady and I accompanied some uniformed officers to the railroad yards just west of the building and returned through the westside door of the building about ten minutes later. I remained in the building until about 1.30p.m. When I was asked to go to the Dallas Police Dept to furnish an affidavit.” Seems Vicki and Sarah must have taken ten minutes to exit the building. https://catalog.archives.gov/id/7461156

I agree with you. Bob. When the above gif is slowed down to a quarter speed, it certainly look like Lovelady to me.

Karl Kinaski. "Titovets: Pavel Golovachev did not speak English at all. Once he confided in me that he wished he did and he was sorry he did not speak the language." Warren Commission. Mrs. PORTER. Lee did not have very many friends. I do recall one young man working with him. His name was Pavel Golovachev, and he was around our house quite a lot and they spoke English. So for this young gentleman it was a good practice. Mrs. PORTER. Lee did not have very many friends. I do recall one young man working with him. His name was Pavel Golovachev, and he was around our house quite a lot and they spoke English. So for this young gentleman it was a good practice. Mr. McDONALD. Was this individual Pavel Golovachev? Mrs. PORTER. Yes. Mr. McDONALD. Would you consider him Lee's closest friend? Mrs. PORTER. I think so.

"East of the entrance"? You sure, James?