Ray Mitcham

Different body?

My comments in red OIC. That must be why only TWO very small metal fragments were plucked from inside President Kennedy's head by the autopsy surgeons at Bethesda, huh? And I wonder why there is very little in the way of bullet (metal) fragments visible in the X-rays taken of JFK's head? A faked X-ray, Ray? .... Yep, we definitely are getting there. And it's also good to know that you, Ray Mitcham, are a person who actually DOES think that the great-big wound in JFK's head serves as the ENTRY point for a bullet. Most people can easily figure out the ENTRIES from the EXITS when it comes to assessing bullet wounds, with the largest wound almost always indicating the BLOW-OUT (or EXIT) point for the missile. And it's good to know that you, David Von Pain continue to believe the unbelievable. But, as with everything in this JFK case, the conspiracists have a habit of turning night into day---and exits into entries. No., not the conspiracists. That's what surgeons at the autopsy did. A humorous example of this type of topsy-turvy mindset exhibited by some conspiracy theorists came up on one of the other JFK forums, when a certain unnamed kook insisted that Governor Connally's chest wound was actually a wound of ENTRY, while Connally's upper-back wound was a wound of exit. Such is the upside-down world of JFK conspiracists. A typical stupid Von Pein comment. I notice you said nothing about your sneaky angled photo of the dealey Plaza sketch

Nice photo, David, but very naughty. Pity it was taken from an angle which compresses the sketch of Dealey Plaza. It looks a bit different when you see it like this The grey curved line equates to the one drawn on by Newman and his position is circled lower on the drawing. It shows that he thought the shot came from nowhere near the TSBD. Regarding where do i think the bullet went that entered from the front,-easy….It stayed inside JFK's skull as it exploded.

No, I don't think he had superhuman abilities. Neither have you, although it seems that you think you do. You appear to know more about what he saw than he did. In his first tv interview, Newman said that he saw the bullet hit the President in the side of the temple. Subsequent interviews do not compare with earliest interviews as you know. He was the closest to the assassination and saw what he saw, and no matter how you try to twist it. Perhaps if you think that what he saw, was the exit of the bullet rather than the entrance, you could tell us where the bullet that supposedly did what you say, ended up.

And just how on Earth does Zapruder's "from back of me" remark help out the conspiracy theorists who want to place a gunman behind a fence on the Grassy Knoll, which is a fence that was certainly NOT in "back" of Abe Zapruder's pedestal at the time of the head shot. That fence was to the RIGHT of Zapruder....and actually, to be technical, the area of that fence where most of the conspiracy buffs like to put a gunman was also a little bit in FRONT of Zapruder's position as well (i.e., a little SOUTH of the Zapruder pedestal) -- as the photograph below indicates: But I suppose all the conspiracy theorists can argue that the picket fence area was, indeed, IN BACK of Zapruder's position when at least ONE of the shots was fired, because Zapruder's body would have been turned more toward the Elm & Houston corner at that time. So you can argue that "angle" difference if you want, but it's still not going to garner you a victory in this particular argument, and that's because of the following portion of Mr. Zapruder's Warren Commission testimony that Ray decided to leave out of his last post: Mr. LIEBELER - All right, as you stood here on the abutment and looked down into Elm Street, you saw the President hit on the right side of the head and you thought perhaps the shots had come from behind you? Mr. ZAPRUDER - Well, yes. Mr. LIEBELER - From the direction behind you? Mr. ZAPRUDER - Yes, actually--I couldn't say what I thought at the moment, where they came from--after the impact of the tragedy was really what I saw and I started and I said--yelling, "They've killed him"--I assumed that they came from there, because as the police started running back of me, it looked like it came from the back of me. Mr. LIEBELER - But you didn't form any opinion at that time as to what direction the shots did come from actually? Mr. ZAPRUDER - No. So it's pretty clear to me that Zapruder's WC testimony is in perfect harmony with what he told CBS-TV in 1967. In other words--he just couldn't tell exactly where the shots were coming from. The subject is not about the picket fence. It is about where the head wound was, Newman said in his earliest interview that "“ As the car got directly in front of us, uh, a gunshot, apparently from behind us hit the President in the side of the temple.” Now if you can show how a gunshot to the side of the temple can equate to a bullet in the back of the head, I'd be very interested in your explanation.

My replies in red Huh? Bill Newman said no such thing in that 2003 video. In fact, he specifically says that he refuses to "define" the exact location of the gunshots. He said: "So I say 'behind' and I leave it at that." He said he can't say whether the shots he heard came more to the left or more to the right of his location: "If I thought it came from the sixth floor, I'd most definitely tell you so. If I thought it came from the picket fence, I'd certainly tell you so. The reality of it is--I don't know." -- William E. Newman; July 10, 2003 Audio clip with Bill Newman -- https://app.box.com/s/koji4pr1e7242ajo3hvd 9 min 50 Newman “but if If you want to define it a little closer, that would be a little closer to the picket fence rather as opposed to the School Depository” Yeah, right Ray. They avoided the Newmans, but had no problem publishing the testimony of Sam Holland and Jean Hill and several other "conspiracy" type witnesses. But they were just scared to death of Bill and Gayle Newman, huh? They were the closest civilians (other than those in the cars) to the assassination. Newman said that the reason he thought he wasn't called was because he wouldn't confirm the shots came from the TSBD You're funny. Thank you That's not what he told Eddie Barker in Dealey Plaza in 1967: "I'm not a ballistic expert, but I believe if there were shots that were coming by my right ear, I would hear a different sound. I heard shots coming from--I wouldn't know which direction to say--but it was proven from the Texas Book Depository. And they all sounded alike; there was no different sound at all." -- Abe Zapruder; June 1967 (emphasis added by DVP) SOURCE: http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2011/05/cbs-news-inquiry-warren-report.ht I'm not interested in what he told Eddie Barker, this is from his Warren Commission testimony: Mr. LIEBELER - Did you have any impression as to the direction from which these shots came? Mr. ZAPRUDER - No, I also thought it came from back of me.

And directly behind Bill Newman is not the TSBD. Another good video . Confirms what their earlier views. In it, he says that the shots came more from the fence area behind him more to his right than from the TSBD to his left. You say that "he immediately interpreted that VISUAL experience (incorrectly)…" only in your opinion, David, only in your opinion!. I can see why the Warren Commission didn't want them to be interviewed. Zapruder also said he thought the shots came from over his right shoulder.

The Newman interview is good, David. This is part of what they said in the interview, (interviewers questions in italics) Bill Newman “ As the car got directly in front of us, uh, a gunshot, apparently from behind us hit the President in the side of the temple.” “Did you think the first gunshot came from behind you too?” “I think it came from the same location, uh, apparently back up on the, uh, the mall, what ya call it.” “Do you think the shot came from up on top of the viaduct towards the President? Is that correct?” “Yes sir--Er no not on the viaduct itself, but up on top of the hill or the mound of ground at a garden” “How far away would you say that is from where the President was ? A couple or three hundred yards, something like that?” “Well I haven’t no idea ‘cos I didn’t see where the gunshots come from. We were looking directly at the President when he was hit, and he was more or less directly in front of us, and we didn’t realize what was happening until we seen the side of his head, whenever the bullet hit him in the head” “snip” To Gail Newman “Did you see anyone else hit besides the err...” “Governor Connolly was kind of turned to his side and grabbed his stomach” “snip” To Bill Newman “Do you have you idea which direction the shots came from that hit the President and Mr Connolly. Did you see which if the shots came from one direction and one from another?” ”No, They both came directly from behind where we were standing…The President, it looked like though he was looking in that direction..I don’t know whether he was hit first, apparently he was . It looked like he jumped up in his seat, and when he jumped up, well he was shot directly in the head. And re I don’t know what you call it the mall behind us ,but, apparently that’s where he was ”

I'm only concerned with people who were at the autopsy. You could probably find a lot of contributors like that. For example, Sibert said that there wasn't a casket team to welcome the casket when it arrived, yet we have testimony which proves otherwise, and he was there, but not necessarily at the same time. There are too many anomalies in the various stories, especially regarding nothing happening before 8 p.m.

He could be wrong on both accounts, Ray. This isn't necessarily an either or proposition. I personnally take anything O"Connor says with a grain a salt. He's also claimed that there was no brain with the body and the throat wound looked like a blown out mess. The decoy ambulance story is interesting, but, even if true, they've yet to prove JFK was in it. And No one has yet to explain how they got the ambulance away from Gen. McHugh at the front of the hospital and back again without him noticing. Maybe McHugh was in on the switch.(http://www.manuscriptservice.com/McHugh/)

You forget the attitude towards black people in the fifities and sixties. they were considered to be non persons who were virtually invisible. I would be interested to know why Israel told the story if it wasn't true.

O'Connor was either right with the time he saw the body removed, or right about what the body was wrapped in. As the wrappings do not agree with Humes but do agree with Edward Reed, who said when he saw the body it the body was wrapped in plastic, rather than Parkland sheets, (see http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/arrb/medical_testimony/pdf/Reed_10-21-97.pdf page 28) then it would appear that he was right about the wrapping and not the time. He also says that the personnel who brought the casket in lifted the body out of the casket, which again is not what Humes said. Either he was mistaken or there was a lot of shenanigans going on before the official autopsy.

Scott,have you ever read this is a report regarding Clarence Israel, whose brother was a black orderly at the autopsy.

Scott, how come O'Connor saw a pink shipping casket arrive and the President in a body bag, at 8p.m., when Humes said the body was in the Parkland casket and wrapped in sheets? "We opened the casket, Dr. Boswell and I, and the President's body was unclothed in the casket, was wrapped in a sheet labeled by the Parkland Hospital" Could he have got his times mixed up?

Wasn't Tippit supposed to have dashed into the Top Ten record store to use the phone? Maybe that's how they were getting surreptitious messages. By the way, Joseph. I'm in the middle of your book and loving it.Well done.

We don't know that Hidell's name wasn't on the application for Box 2915. That portion of the application was discarded. And for CTers who bring up the FBI report found in CE2585, I offered up this retort in 2010.... " "Our investigation has revealed that Oswald did not indicate on his application that others, including an 'A. Hidell,' would receive mail through the box in question, which was Post Office Box 2915 in Dallas. This box was obtained by Oswald on October 9, 1962, and relinquished by him on May 14, 1963." -- Via FBI Report of 6/3/64 [CE2585] But we know from all the available (and unavailable) evidence associated with the topic of Lee Harvey Oswald's P.O. Box applications that the FBI did not actually see and examine Part 3 of the application Oswald filled out for Box #2915 in Dallas, because that portion of the application simply does not exist. So, how could the FBI, in November 1963 or June 1964, have seen something that was thrown away in May 1963? Therefore, when the FBI came to the conclusion cited above on Page 4 of its report dated June 3, 1964, the FBI was relying on information OTHER than Part 3 of Oswald's application for P.O. Box 2915. And I'm wondering if possibly the FBI made the same mistake that Gary Craig and other people have made [see the link below to see Craig's gaffe]: they mixed up the two P.O. Box applications for boxes 2915 and 6225. The 6225 box application still had Part 3 attached to it, but Box 2915 did not. Maybe the FBI made the same error conspiracy theorists make when those CTers try and prop up Cadigan Exhibit No. 13 as proof that Oswald didn't list A. Hidell as a person entitled to receive mail at Box 2915. In any event, even if it was an error on the part of the FBI, the error most certainly cannot be considered to be a sinister lie. Not even conspiracy theorists could consider such an error to be conspiratorial or sinister. Why? Because J. Edgar Hoover's FBI is almost always thought to be one of the major forces behind a "cover-up" in the JFK assassination investigation by conspiracy promoters. And this possible mistake about the P.O. Box application of Oswald's is a mistake that makes it appear LESS likely that Oswald could have received the assassination weapon through the mail. So, if Hoover's boys were making up stories, then they would have lied in the OTHER direction and would have claimed that Oswald definitely HAD listed A. Hidell as a person who could receive mail at P.O. Box 2915. Instead, the FBI concluded that he definitely had NOT listed Hidell on the application. [...] BTW, it also makes no sense for Oswald to purchase guns under the name HIDELL and have them shipped to a P.O. Box where he DID NOT have the name HIDELL listed as a person authorized to receive mail. But, on the other hand, since the post office delivers to ADDRESSES and not specific PEOPLE, it's very likely that Oswald would not have had any problem getting a package addressed to HIDELL even if that name was not on any kind of official authorization form." -- DVP; July 2010 JFK Archives / Oswald's Post Office Applications Strange that, although the Postal Sevice should have kept the portion of the box application form which would have shown what name(s) were on it, it was disposed of. By whom, we know not. Unfortunate that. Your point about the Postal Service delivering to addresses and not to people is a red herring, as we are not talking about delivering, we are talking about collecting. If for some reason my post is held at the Post Office, I have to show proof of both address and name. So your suppositon that it is "very likely"that Oswald would not have had any problem is just that your supposition. Why on earth would the FBI say they knew that only Oswald's name was on the form, if they hadn't seen it or knew about what it contained.? Your point about Why would Oswald order a rifle in the name of Hidell when the box didn't have Hidell's name on it, is quite right,. Why on earth would he? Or should we say Did he?

The biggest query for me is why the Post Office would accept a rifle addressed to A.Hidell at Oswald's post box. Particularly, nobody recalls accepting it and nobody remembers giving it to Oswald, and it wasn't signed for. Why would the Post Office accept an incorrectly addressed parcel in the first place, when there was nothing to link Hidell to Oswald's box?

This is a screen shot from the above Penn and Teller video showing the FBI recreation of the sniper view, with Connolly 6" further inboard than JFK. The yellow line shows the amount of diversion the Magic bullet would have to have made to strike Connally in the right shoulder. Without a massive deflection (caused by what?) the bullet would have hit the back of Connally's jump seat. (This photo is later in the sequence than when the shot was allegedly fired, but if the shot was earlier then the line of flight of the bullet would have been much steeper and even more ludicrous.)

As per his song, re the assassination--We shall overcome!

New short video which might cause a few comments. Thoughts?

Seems the site owner might have had a bit of a byas against some of them, Bill. (Sorry. Couldn't resist it!)

Testimony of Humes to the AARB " Mr Gunn: " Dr. Humes, when did you first see the body of President Kennedy?" Dr Humes "I didn't look at my watch, if I even had a watch on, but I would guess it was 6:45 or 7 o'clock, something like that, approximately." Huh?

James, the memo appears to be confirmed by Dennis David who said the coffin arrived "about 6.45", and Edward Reed, a techinican at Bethesda said it arrived "around 6.30p.m."

Gene, according to first DPD reports , the rifle was found on the "fifth" floor.

Sorry Pat, but Clark didn;t say that. He said"“the head wound could have been either the exit wound from the neck or it could have been a tangential wound, as it was simply a large, gaping loss of tissue.”