Steve Thomas
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On 10/26/2018 at 2:16 PM, Paul Brancato said:
How so Steve? This story doesn’t fit with the rest of De Vosjoli’s output, and I’m skeptical of it too, especially because he mixes his opposite from SDECE with Texans. But it may be a clue as to what De Vosjoli himself knew and was trying to deflect from. His relationships with Angleton, and especially with Brandstetter, is real as anything.
Paul,
I said I was skeptical about Vosjoli, and you asked why.
I'm sorry, I don't know enough to argue intelligently. My reasons are subjective more than objective.
1. I spent all my life in public service. One thing I learned is to be suspicious of anyone who talks too much or too fast. My take on his article in Life Magazine is that he talks too much. The line he is pushing is that the French government was riddled with KGB spies. This is the same line the OAS was pushing to the CIA.
“So Much Has Been Swept Under the Rug” by Vosjoli
Life Magazine 1968
https://books.google.ca/books?id=ylQEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA32#v=onepage&q&f=false
2. He's got beady eyes:
3. Look where he fled immediately after JFK's assassination: Brandstetter's in Acapulco. I wonder why.
PS: Have you ever looked into the Jack Dunlap case that Vosjoli refers to in his article? That case came out at the same time as the Eugene Dinkin case, but Dunlap's case worried the U.S. government a whole lot more.
Like I said, it's all subjective.
Steve Thomas
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On 10/26/2018 at 4:19 AM, Steve Thomas said:
Anthony,
This is a new name to me, so I did a quick search.
Steve Thomas
Another reference to de Lannurien:
From, Matrix For Assassination, by Richard Gilbride. page 164.
de Lannurien is now contracting out snipers? Angleton at Langley? Right-wing Texans? Israeli Mossad?
This guy gets around.
Steve Thomas
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On 10/25/2018 at 11:41 PM, Anthony Thorne said:
A five star review of the book has appeared from a poster (not me, I haven't read it yet) on Goodreads -
Quote, " I find it telling rather than coincidence that French intelligence Colonel deLannurien was at Langley meeting with Angleton on the 22nd November 1963."
Anthony,
This is a new name to me, so I did a quick search.
From, Our Man in Haiti, by Joan Mellen. page unknown.
At this point in my life, I'm a little skeptical of Vosjoli.
Steve Thomas
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1 hour ago, Larry Hancock said:
Thanks Steve, actually I went down the Detachment 101 road twice, most recently when I did Shadow Warfare. I spend a lot of time there following OSS 101 members who became locally influential in Burma after the war, who helped establish the first CIA presence there and to some extent many of the basic practices for CIA covert operations during the Cold War...long before PB/SUCCESS. If you have SW check Chapter 4 on Armies of Opportunity and Chapter 4 on Fighting China...Deniably. I think you will find some names that are familiar to you and others that are not...but a lot of connections that later turn up in Laos and the Golden Triangle, including Lucian Conein.
Larry,
I felt kind of stupid referring you to the OSS and Burma.
I figured you were all over it anyway, but couldn't stop myself from hitting that send button. *grin*
I don't have Shadow Warfare, but the Golden Triangle connections intrigue me.
I read The Strength of the Wolf by Doug Valentine a long time ago, and it left an impression on me.
Steve Thomas
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26 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:
Steve,
Westbrook is all over this thing.
Jim,
Is Westbrook generating this information about Oswald being a communist, or is he just passing it along, and was he the source of the information Stringfellow gave to the 112th down in San Antonio? Oswald admitted no such thing.
Gerald Hill's testimony before the Warren Commission
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/hill_gl.htm
“...we adjourned to the personnel office, which was further down the hall from homicide and I sat down and started to try to organize the first report on the arrest.
I originally had the heading on it, "Injuries sustained by suspect while effecting his arrest in connection with the murder of Officer J. D. Tippit," and a few minutes later Captain Westbrook came in the office and said that our suspect had admitted being a Communist. This is strictly hearsay. I did not hear it myself.
Steve Thomas
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If Bentley gave Oswald's wallet to Lt. Baker and it was inventoried and did not contain the Hidell Selective Service card in it, then how come Clements "found in lying on a desk" later Friday evening, and it did have the Hidell SS card in it?
Two different wallets? Or did somebody add things to the wallet and then left it lying around on a desk for somebody to conveniently find?
Steve Thomas
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1 hour ago, Larry Hancock said:
It was amazingly ballsy, especially since the jumps were at night, during the dark of the moon and coordinated strictly with local resistance folks who could easily have been compromised by the occupation forces. It largely succeeded due the the strong personal bonds between the British and French, involving Brits who were quite fluent in French and personally familiar with the territory and French personnel who had gone to Britain and moved back and forth as infiltrators.
The only sad point is that while it worked in France and to a lesser extent in the low countries, certain of the senior OSS officers who became involved with it used it as a model for infiltration into occupied Europe after the war and later into North Vietnam - both efforts for total disasters (largely because unlike in France there were no comparable resistance networks). Hundreds of volunteers were sacrificed in the effort, I discuss it in Shadow Warfare.
Larry,
Because my initial inquiry led me to the China-Burma-India Theater of Operations, I wound up reading about OSS Detchment 101.
(You might be interested in scrolling through the footnotes to the last citation (the Center of Military History one by Hogan)
OSS Detachment 101 Burma
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OSS_Detachment_101
“On April 14, 1942, William Donovan, as Coordinator of Information (which evolved into the Office of Strategic Services that June), activated Detachment 101 for action behind enemy lines in Burma. The first unit of its kind, the Detachment was charged with gathering intelligence, harassing the Japanese through guerrilla actions, identifying targets for the Army Air Force to bomb, and rescuing downed Allied airmen. Because Detachment 101 was never larger than a few hundred Americans, it relied on support from various tribal groups in Burma. In particular, the vigorously anti-Japanese Kachin people were vital to the unit's success. By the time of its deactivation on July 12, 1945, Detachment 101 had scored impressive results. According to official statistics, with a loss of some 22 Americans, Detachment 101 killed 5,428 Japanese and rescued 574 Allied personnel."[2] 101's efforts opened the way for Stilwell's Chinese forces, Wingate's Raiders, Merrill's Marauders, and the great counter-attack against the Japanese Imperial life-line.” 3.
Unfortunately, the list of officers and men that was supposed to be included in the following site has been taken down.
2.. Behind Japanese Lines in Burma The Stuff of Intelligence Legend
3. Behind the Burma Road by William R. Peers and Dean Brelis, 1963.
“The book aims in part to be a primer for guerilla fighters. It lists Detachment 101's accomplishments as far as they were known at the time in terms of the effects of its attacks on and harassment of the Japanese during World War II.... The successes of Detachment 101 made possible the entry of Joseph Stilwell's Chinese forces, Orde Wingate's Raiders, Merrill's Marauders, and the other moves against the Japanese Imperial interior lines.
U.S. ARMY SPECIAL OPERATIONS IN WORLD WAR II by David W. Hogan, Jr
https://history.army.mil/html/books/070/70-42/CMH_Pub_70-42.pdf
see pp. 97-132. for information about the China-Burma-India Theater of Operations, especially pp. 98-112 for Detachment 101.
See the footnotes pp. 129-132.
Steve Thomas
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6 hours ago, Larry Hancock said:
As a WWII history buff I feel compelled to chime in that the Jedburgh operation was largely a British SOE affair, initiated by the British and with the majority of the clandestine air drops were done by British aircraft and the contacts were with French and other resistance fighters in the occupied territories. The OSS did participate but were relative late comers and learned the ropes from the Brits, they were not running the show. In fact OSS officers had to go though Jed/SOE military training to qualify for inclusion.
Operation Jedburgh was a clandestine operation during World War II, in which personnel of the British Special Operations Executive, the U.S. Office of Strategic Services, the Free French Bureau Central de Renseignements et d'Action ("Intelligence and operations central bureau") and the Dutch and Belgian Armies were dropped by parachute into occupied France, the Netherlands and Belgium to conduct sabotage and guerrilla warfare, and to lead the local resistance forces in actions against the Germans.
The British were fighting the clandestine battle on the continent before the U.S. entered the war.
Larry,
From what I can tell, the Jedburghs were some of the most fearless and courageous men our country and any other country ever produced.
There are some who claim that the CIA was behind the Generals Putsch in April, 1961. Didn't Charles DeGaulle even believe that, and JFK had to personally call him to reassure him it wasn't true?
That's why I included the info about Yves Godard - he weaves in and out of the life of Jean-Rene Souetre as well.
What do you think of them parachuting behind the lines in uniform? That's pretty ballsy.
Steve Thomas
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On 10/24/2018 at 2:29 PM, Mark Lawson said:
Given the state of phototypesetting and offset lithography printing circa 1961-63 (with melted-lead Linotype machines still being use by newspapers into the 1970s and early 1980s), I am skeptical that the DPD had either the time or the technology to forge the "HIDELL" Selective Service and Social Security cards overnight. However, considering wanna'-be CIA/FBI agent Oswald's experience with commercial printing, while working in at least one printing plant, he may have had the tools and time necessary to produce these documents himself.
Mark,
It sounds like you know what you are talking about, and your reasoning is sound.
What do you think of this possibility?
Oswald created the fake Hidell Selective Service card while he was working at Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall, but he didn't sign it.
That would make what he said under interrogation by the DPD true. He admitted to having the card, but denied the signature was his.
The reason I ask is that the SS card in the name of Oswald doesn't appear to be signed, but the Hidell card is signed.
CE 801 is the Selective Service Notice of Classification for Lee Oswald
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1134#relPageId=712&tab=page
CE 796 is the Selective Service Notice of Classification for Alek Hidell
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1134#relPageId=708&tab=page
What do you think?
Steve Thomas
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I had read that Lucien Conein, John Singlaub and L.Robert Castorr were all in the Merrill's Marauders.
I thought that was kind of interesting, so I started looking around. While I haven't found that Conein and Singlaub were in Merrill's Marauders, I did find some information about the Jedburghs.
This is what I've come across so far:
Lucien Conein
wikipedia:
In 1944 he was sent to Vichy France with orders to help the French Resistance attack the German Army during the Allied landings in Normandy. He worked with the Jedburghs, a multinational band directed by the Office of Strategic Services (OSS)
John Singlaub
wikipedia:
"As a member of Operation Jedburgh (Singlaub was part of the three man team codenamed "JAMES"), Singlaub parachuted behind German lines in August 1944 to work with the French Resistance fighters"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Jedburgh
In Burma, Jedburgh teams were used in operations "Billet" and "Character". "Billet" was a plan to raise resistance to the Japanese among the majority Burman population, primarily through the largely communist Anti-Fascist Organisation (AFO). "Character" was a scheme to raise the minority Karen people in the Karen Hills between the Sittang and Salween Rivers. The first Jeds to go on Character operations were flown into Burma in February 1945 with Lieutenant Colonel Peacock's Special Groups.
Many of the surviving American "Jeds" later held various positions of great responsibility in the US Army or the CIA. Examples include William Colby, who became director of the CIA, Lucien Conein, who was a key CIA officer in Vietnam, General John Singlaub and Colonel Aaron Bank (first commander of United States Army Special Forces).
Among French Jedburghs were Paul Aussaresses, later founder of the SDECE's 11e RPC, and counter-insurgency expert in French Algeria; Jean Sassi, another who later served in the 11e RPC, who pioneered conventional guerrilla commandos GCMA with Roger Trinquier during the First Indochina War; Guy Le Borgne, commander of the 8e Choc Parachute Battalion in Indochina, the 3rd Marine Infantry Parachute Regiment in Algeria and 11th Parachute Division."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/11e_r%C3%A9giment_parachutiste_de_choc"The 11e régiment parachutiste de choc ("11th shock parachute regiment), often called 11e choc, was an elite parachute regiment of the French Army. It used to serve as the armed branch of the SDECE
In July 1947, as the complement of the 11e choc grew, Morlane nominated Paul Aussaresses to replace Mautaint. Aussaresses described his mission as "perform what was by then called 'psychological warfare', wherever it was necessary, notably in Indochina (...) I trained my men for clandestine operations, airborne or otherwise, that could range from building demolition to sabotage or elimination of enemies".[3] From 1952, elements of the 11e choc were sent to Indochina to lead and train the Groupement de commandos mixtes aéroportés (GCMA), though the 11e Choc did not take part in the conflict as a unit.
Back from Indochina in 1952, Aussaresses was tasked to assassinate supporters of the FLN. Morlane "was convinced that a Soviet invasion was imminent, and had been busy constituting secret weapon caches all over the territory so that, when time would come, a resistance could be organised".[4]
4. Paul Aussaresses, Pour la France: Services spéciaux 1942-1954, Editions du Rocher, 2001, p.257
Commanding officers
11e bataillon parachutiste de choc
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1946-1947 : CNE Mautaint
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1947 : CNE Rivière
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1947-1948 : CNE Paul Aussaresses
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1948-1953 : CBN Yves Godard
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1953-1955 : CES Pierre Decorse
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1955-1957 : CNE Bauer
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1958-1960 : CNE Erouart
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1960-1961 : CBN Crousillac
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1961-1962 : CBN Mouton
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1962-1963 : CBN Dabezies
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1963 : CBN Barthes"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yves_Godard
"He was part of the occupation force in Austria, then a general staff officer of the French Army before taking command of the 11e Bataillon Parachutiste de Choc in 1948. He led the battalion during the First Indochina War, taking part during the war in a failed attempted to relieve the French Union garrison at Dien Bien Phu from Laos. In 1955 Godard became chief of staff of the Parachute Intervention Group, soon to become the 10th Parachute Division, in Algeria commanded by General Jacques Massu. He took part in the Anglo-French operation during the Suez Crisis in 1956.
Godard became one of the primary figures of the Battle of Algiers, especially during the later part when he commanded the Algiers sector, supervising links between the Army and the Police, and serving as the chief of staff to Massu. At the suggestion of Paul-Alain Léger, he authorised the bleus de chauffe system, by which paratroopers disguised as young workers roamed the Cashbah and arrested FLN militants
During the Barricade Week, in January 1960, Godard sent Captain Yves de La Bourdonnaye to negotiate Pierre Lagaillarde's surrender. La Bourdonnaye later implied that he was sympathetic to the rebels and had done little to hasten their surrender.[4]In February, Pierre Messmer had Godard transferred to France, but he returned to take part in the Algiers putsch of 1961. When the putsch failed, he joined the Organisation armée secrète, helping modeling it after the structure of the FLN,[5] but left Algeria in the summer of 1962 and stayed underground until 1967. Godard was sentenced to death for his part in the putsch and OAS. He settled in Belgium, and unlike his OAS colleagues, he did not return to France after the 1968 amnesty. Godard died in 1975 at Lessines, Belgium, at 63."
Interesting group of people.Steve Thomas
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David,
CE 811 is the back side of Oswald's Selective Service Classification. It's grouped with CE 812, the USMC Certificate of Service
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1134#relPageId=718&tab=page
Eyes: Blue
Height 5'11”
CE 796, and 797 is Alek Hidell's SS Notice of Classification:
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1134#relPageId=708&tab=page
Eyes: Grey
Height 5'9”
card is signed
Selective Service Card in the name of Lee Harvey Oswald
CE 802
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1134#relPageId=713&tab=page
ink stained and not signed
USMC Certificate of Service
Lee Harvey Oswald: CE 812
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1134#relPageId=718&tab=page
Period of Active Duty: 24 October 1956 to 11 September 1959
USMC Certificate of Service
Alek James Hidell:
CE 806, 807, 808, 809, and 810
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1134#relPageId=715&tab=page
CE 810 Certificate of Service
Period of Active Duty: Oct 15 1958 to Oct 12 1959? (only one year in the service?)
Steve Thomas
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On 10/24/2018 at 10:21 AM, Jim Hargrove said:
Steve,
Without directly answering your questions, perhaps a broader look at things might shed some light on all this.
Jim,
It struck me a little while ago that 3 out of the 5 policemen who drove Oswald back downtown from the Theater all submitted their reports after going through Westbrook:
Carroll, Bentley and Hill. So I got wondering if the others in the car also went through Westbrook.
What a mess:
WC testimony of Bob Carroll
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/carroll.htm
Mr. CARROLL. Well, after we got the handcuffs on him - it was McDonald and Jerry Hill, Ray Hawkins and myself, and I believe there was - I think it was Hutson - we started out of the theatre and we took him out through the main lobby to our car, which was parked right in front where we had left it - where Lyons and I pulled up, and we put him in our car in the back seat and I was driving and Jerry Hill was riding next to me and somewhere after this deal, someway or other - I don't know exactly when it was - Paul Bentley had joined the crowd, and he got into the car in the right - front seat and then Oswald and Hutson, I believe, were in the beck seat, and we left there and drove to the police station.
Hutson was not in the car, but C.T. Walker and K.E. Lyon were.
There were 5 cops and 1 prisoner, and Carroll got 3 out of the 5 cops wrong. That's a 60% error rate.
After action report of Bob Carroll
DPD Archives Box 2, Fold# 7, Item# 12
http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box2.htm
Carroll's WC testimony differs from his own after-action report.
M.N. McDonald did not ride in that car.
After action report of K.E. Lyon:
DPD Archives Box 2, Folder# 7, Item# 31
http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box2.htm
WC testimony of C.T. Walker:
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/walker_c.htm
Mr. WALKER. There was a plain car, police car out in front. The right door was open, and Bentley went in first, and Oswald come and then I. We sat in the back seat with him. Sgt. Jerry Hill in the front, and two more detectives that I don't know who they were, that rode down, too. There were five officers and Oswald in the car. We took him down.
After-action report of C.T. Walker:
DPD Archives Box 2, Folder# 7, Item# 49
http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box2.htm
Bob Carrroll:
:Paul Bentley had joined the crowd, and he got into the car in the right - front seat and then Oswald and Hutson, I believe, were in the beck seat, and we left there and drove to the police station.:
Mr. HILL. Officer Bentley--the suspect was put in the right rear door of the squad car and was instructed to move over to the middle. C. T. Walker got into the rear seat and would have been sitting on the right rear.
Paul Bentley went around the car and got in the left rear door and sat on that side.
Mr. BELIN. That would have been from the left to the right, Bentley, Oswald, and Walker? Or Bentley, the suspect, and Walker?
Mr. HILL. K. E. Lyons got in the right front. I entered the door from the driver's side and got in the middle of the front seat.These guys can't seem to remember who was in the car or where they were sitting.
Steve Thomas
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On 10/24/2018 at 4:34 AM, Jim Hargrove said:
In other words, the bogus Hidell SS card was not among the contents of Oswald’s wallet on 11/22/63. There is a lot more to this story, but I just wanted to make sure everyone was aware of the fact that the Hidell draft card (and undoubtedly the Hidell “Certificate of Service” card) were NOT found in Oswald’s wallet by the Dallas police on 11/22/63. (Thanks to DJ for pointing me to the full doc page.)
Jim,
Some questions:
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If the Selective Service Card was in Oswald's wallet, and the wallet was in police possession on the 22nd, why, during his official interrogation on the 22nd, wasn't Oswald asked about it until only the 23rd.?
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If, as Bookhout said, the card was in the name of Alek James Hidell, why did Rose say the card said “A. Hidell”? (Which just happens to be the name the rifle is ordered under. See below.
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Did Fritz ask Oswald about the Selective Service card, or did this mysterious person Fritz called, “B.O.”? (whom I believe was James Bookhout)?
Fritz said Bookhout asked him about the card. Kelley said Fritz was the one who asked about the card. Bookhout couldn't remember who asked about the card. What's going on here?
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Why, if Fritz had the Selective Service card in his hand and showed it to Oswald, did he mis-spell the name as “Heidel” in his Interrogation Notes.?
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Did Oswald “deny” that the Hidell signature was his, or did he simple “not admit” that the signature was his? There is a slight difference in interpretation here. An hour later, at 12:30 on the morning of the 23rd., Oswald was claiming that the pictures of him with a rifle were forgeries. Was he claiming that the Hidell signature on the Selective Service card was a forgery too?
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Why would Oswald admit to having the card, but deny the signature was his? What is the logic here? What is he trying to tell us?
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There is no record of Oswald ever using the card as identification for anything. The only times I can remember the identity of Hidell being associated with Oswald is in his efforts to infiltrate, or someone else planting the implication of Oswald being associated with communism; and tying Oswald to the rifle ordered from Klein's.
Since the Hidell SS card is such an obvious forgery, I can only assume that it is the signature on the card that is important.
Steve Thomas
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5 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:
That's a good question Steve. Why did detective Bentley go to Westbrook's office, in Personnel to make out his murder arrest report? Didn't the detectives have their own offices/desks/area? Or there was homicide, where the investigation was actually taking place. Maybe he needed Westbrook's help in getting his story straight?
Ron,
Bentley was a Detective in the Crime Scene Search Section headed by J.C. Day. Why didn't he go to Day to make his Report?
https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/pdf/WH19_Batchelor_Ex_5002.pdf
Steve Thomas
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2 hours ago, David Josephs said:
Hill goes on: Mr. HILL. Paul Bentley called off two addresses. One, as I recall, in Irving, and another one in Oak Cliff, when he was reading from information inside the suspect's billfold. But neither of these addresses was an address on 10th or on Beckley.
David,
There is no ID with an Irving address on it.
The only ID with an Oak Cliff address is that Library Card
The only two accounts that put the Library card in Oswald's wallet prior to his arrival at police headquarters are erroneous.
In his after-action Report dated December 3, 1963, DPD Archives, Box 2, Folder# 7, Item# 4, page 2
http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box2.htm
Detective Paul Bentley wrote: “On the way to the City Hall, I removed the suspect's wallet and obtained his name.... I turned his identification over to Lt. Baker. I then went to Captain Westbrook's office to make a report of this arrest.”
There is nothing in his Report about obtaining an address. Oswald's ID immediately went to Lieutenant Baker. Where is Bentley's Report to Westbrook done on November 22nd. Was it written, or was it just an oral report? Why did he go to Westbrook to make his Report? Westbrook was in Personnel.
Bob Carroll, who was in the car heading back downtown, and from whom Jack Revill told the WC that he had gotten the Elsbeth St. address, told the WC:
Mr. BELIN. Did he give two names? Or did someone in the car read from the identification?
Mr. CARROLL. Someone in the car may have read from the identification. I know two names, the best I recall, were mentioned.
Mr. BELIN. Were any addresses mentioned?
Mr. CARROLL. Not that I recall; no, sir.Steve Thomas
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David,
In his after-action Report dated December 3, 1963, DPD Archives, Box 2, Folder# 7, Item# 4, page 2
http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box2.htm
Detective Paul Bentley wrote: “On the way to the City Hall, I removed the suspect's wallet and obtained his name.... I turned his identification over to Lt. Baker. I then went to Captain Westbrook's office to make a report of this arrest.”
There is nothing in his Report about obtaining an address. Oswald's ID immediately went to Lieutenant Baker. Where is Bentley's Report to Westbrook done on November 22nd. Was it written, or was it just an oral report?
Why did he go to Westbrook to make his Report? Westbrook was in Personnel.
Bentley worked in the Crime Search Section under J.C. Day.
Batchelor Exhibit 5002 page 18 of the Exhibit (p.19 of the pdf file)
https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/pdf/WH19_Batchelor_Ex_5002.pdf
Gerald Hill's testimony before the Warren Commission
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/hill_gl.htm
Concerning Oswald's arrest:
“When we got it back ready to sign, Carroll and I were sitting there, and it had Captain Westbrook's name for signature, and added a paragraph about he and the FBI agent being there, and not seeing that it made any difference, I went ahead and signed the report.”
Gerald Hill's Report to Curry for November 22, 1963 does not contain Captain Westbrook's name or signature or Carrol's. There is no combined Carroll/Hill Report with Westbrooks name for signature.
DPD Archives, Box 2, Folder# 7, Item# 23
http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box2.htm
Steve Thomas
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44 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:
Ron,
This suggests to me that the Hidell IDs were not sent to Washington the night of November 22/23. Why?
Jim,
Without going into a lot of the details right now, I personally think that a whole lot of document forging went on in the DPD crime lab the night of the 22nd.
The library card, the backyard rifle pictures, the Hidell card....
I am convinced that LHO was asked about the rifle pictures at a Saturday 12:35 PM interrogation at which only Will Fritz and Thomas Kelley were present; four hours before they were "officially" found at the Irving St. address. Fritz (or some other police officials) went to great lengths to try and cover that up.
Steve Thomas
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1 hour ago, David Boylan said:
Gene,
Great post.
David.
Yup.
Gene demonstrates once again the importance of not missing the forest because you're focused on the trees.
Gene also wrote, " The Army Infantry hand signals (used in combat situations) are a good hint as to what might have been transpiring."
(Thanks again Larry for the tip).
Applying the tactics of triangulation of fire and especially enfilade give a good idea of what was going on. When your enemy approaches in a broad front, hit them in the center. When he approaches in column formation, hit them from the side.
Steve Thomas
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11 hours ago, David Josephs said:
For "BO" to ask Oswald about "HIDELL" as having been on ID in his wallet (per FBI SA Manning Clements), the inventory listed in Clements' report must have been correct...
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Notes are taken at the interrogations which take place on the 22nd, all day the 23rd and the morning of the 24th
Kelley, Hosty, Bookout, Clemments and someone called "B. O."
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Are we to believe - that despite having these items in their possession - or at least awareness of their existence... Oswald was not asked about the 2 identities until the afternoon of the 23rd? and then by someone Fritz calls "B.O." Best we could figure out - since Bardum Odum is not listed on the FBI list of Interrogation attendees - is this must be Bud Owens given the interrogation was initially related to Tippit's murder...
David,
Will Fritz's Interrogation Notes:
http://www.jfklancer.com/Fritzdocs.html
1st Interview November 22nd:
Present Were:
B.O. + James Hosty
Jame W. Bookout
(B.O. is identified separately from James Bookout)
I now believe that when Fritz wrote his notes, he thought that Bookhout was two words and he didn't know how to spell it, so he shortened it to B.O. Later, he went back in and filled it out as James W. Bookhout, and that's why his name is filled out both above and below the letters B.O. (That's one of the reasons I believe Fritz's notes are fraudulent, or at least not contemporaneous).
The question of the Hidell ID does not come up until Oswald's second interrogation at 10:35 of the morning of the 23rd.
In Fritz's Interrogation Notes of the 23rd, he says that B.O. asked Oswald about the Hidell ID.
http://www.jfklancer.com/docs.maps/fritz4-5.jpg
He wrote that Oswald admitted having the card, but says that Oswald would not admit to having signed it.
WC testimony of James Bookhout:
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/bookhout.htm
Mr. STERN - What sort of question would he refuse to answer? Was there any pattern to his refusing?
Mr. BOOKHOUT - Well, now, I am not certain whether this would apply then to this particular interview, the first interview or not, in answering this, but I recall specifically one of the interviews asking him about the Selective Service card which he had in the name of Hidell, and he admitted that he was carrying the card, but that he would not admit that he wrote the signature of Hidell on the card, and at that point stated that he refused to discuss the matter further. I think generally you might say anytime that you asked a question that would be pertinent to the investigation, that would be the type of question he would refuse to discuss.You can find a copy of James Bookhout's Reports on the Interrogations of Oswald in Appendix XI of the Warren Report here:
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=946#relPageId=643&tab=page
In his Report on the Interrogation of Oswald of the 23rd, he says that Dallas Police Officers F.M. Turner and Billy Senkel were present, but I think he confused them with Officers, Hall and Boyd.
On page 623 of this Appendix, Bookhout talks about Oswald and the Hidell ID card, but does not specifically say who asked Oswald about it.
The WC testimony of Elmer Boyd, and the Report of Thomas Kelley of the SS both mention Bookhout as being present.
Steve Thomas
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Notes are taken at the interrogations which take place on the 22nd, all day the 23rd and the morning of the 24th
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13 hours ago, Paul Brancato said:
Did either of you read the Skorzeny Papers?
Paul,
I think Michael LeFlem demonstrates once again the importance of doing primary research. It's just not good enough for someone to say, "It's true because someone said somebody said".
If the rest on Ganis' book is similar to what he wrote about Souetre, I don't think I'll be wasting my time.
Steve Thomas
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20 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:
Maybe Joe McBride will comment on some of this stuff. Would be very interesting to get his thoughts. He comes by the forum once in a while.
From John A....
I recently looked over the items taken from LHO's wallet.
On 11/22/63 there is no photographic evidence or list of inventoried items from the wallet that shows with the SS Hidell card nor the
USMC Certificate of Service card in the name of Hidell. And neither card is listed on the DPD typewritten inventory of LHO's possessions (225 items).Jim,
I don't know how this factors in, but both Guy Rose of the DPD and Manning Clements of the FBI told the WC that they examined the wallet on Friday, and said they saw the Hidell ID in it.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/rose_g.htm
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/clements.htm
Rose told the WC he saw that ID before he went to Irving to search the place at 2:30 PM.
Like I said, I don't how that fits.
Steve Thomas
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On 10/22/2018 at 7:57 AM, Larry Hancock said:
Cory made me think a bit on this one, is there any film footage from further up the street that shows him with his arm in motion or raised....in reality any real signal would be made well before the limo is right beside him. Just curious.
Larry,
In 2014, Richard Douglas posted a series of photos of the Dark Complected Man in the jfkassassinationforum
here:
But somebody hacked that forum, and those pictures aren't available anymore.
There is this site:
which contains this photo:
The picture on the top left looks like his arm is not raised at all. (I think this is the photo that is often famously used to show the Black Dog Man in the background).
Steve Thomas
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9 hours ago, Chris Davidson said:
Extant Zfilm.
Chris,
Thank you.
Steve Thomas
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Jose Luis Romero
Transcript of a radio program called, “Kaleidoscope” on February 25, 1981 containing an interview with Bernard Fensterwald, Richard Billings and Gary Shaw.
This interview contains the following exchange:
JFK Documents - Central Intelligence Agency/ Russ Holmes Work File/
NARA Record Number: 104-10429-10050
KENNEDY ASSASSINATION (I)
starting on page 15 of the transcript:
Bernard was probably referring to this book:
Gilles , Camille .:
$ 400,000 for the killer.
Ullstein Verlag, 1976
Provider Gerald Wollermann , (Bad Vilbel, Germany)
Steve Thomas
Michele Metta's CMC. THE ITALIAN UNDERCOVER CIA AND MOSSAD STATION AND THE ASSASSINATION OF JFK
in JFK Assassination Debate
Posted · Edited by Steve Thomas
Paul,
Here's a smattering of references to the Dunlap case:
PRESIDENT'S FOREIGN INTELLIGENCE ADVISORY BOARD AGENDA FOR MEETING OF NOVEMBER 21-22, 1963
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1962&search=%22Jack_Dunlap%22#relPageId=6&tab=page
see pp. 6-7
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=166326&relPageId=6&search=%22Jack_Dunlap%22
see p. 6
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=148523&relPageId=221&search=%22Jack_Dunlap%22
see p. 221
Steve Thomas