Joe Bauer

Agree.

My apologies Jim. For my distracting prurient foray into the HA/Marina Oswald affair nonsense. Meaningless in the larger picture you present. I may delete those postings. Yes, no pictures of HA in Dealey Plaza, the Tippit scene, the theater and arrest scene and in the Dallas PD basement shooting of Oswald? Who is this guy? His claims to superman journalist doings fame are so over-hyped and exaggerated they border on the fringe.

Which also reveals the incredible feat of making a "bullseye" hit upon JFK's head at the point on Elm it occurred. The shooters first shot was either deliberately misdirected or deflected by hitting an obstruction - correct? Then the supposed second shot did hit it's mark "generally" into JFK's back. However, if the ultimate shooting goal was a kill shot into JFK's head, that shot was a miss by 12 inches! And that was a head shot miss at what 240 feet versus the third shot bullseye hit at 265 feet? And with JFK in a relatively stationary sitting position? So, the third shot makes a bullseye hit into JFK's head with JFK 25 feet farther away, his upper body and head moving two feet to his left and down in the sight aligning time between the second and third shots...AND with JFK's limo constantly moving downward on an ever steepening grade? That's three dynamics of JFK's body movement which the shooter would have to adjust his aim for, all in a two to three second time period? Target moving to it's left two feet, target moving farther away each second and target moving downward on a slope. Try hitting a bullseye on a 9 inch wide, 8 inch high target at 265 feet, all while that target is moving in three different dynamic ways. Leftward two feet, forward at 11 MPH and downward on a slope. So many top marksmen could not duplicate the head shot bullseye accuracy... and their test runs didn't even include all three movement dynamics!

And this is clearly seen in the Z-film.

I would think a reputable integrity minded newsman would have used a little more discretion in actually submitting a piece for publication that so clearly described the woman in a such a negative stereotype way. "Huge." ? Wouldn't "heavier set" been more journalistic ethics and personally insulting sensitive appropriate? Same with a "screech" of "here they is"? "Screech" ... versus shouted? "Here they is" versus...here they come? Sounds like Aynesworth was reporting the story of this woman and her motorcade arriving actions and words more as an "Aunt Jemima" exaggerated parody than a journalistic ethics guided one. Humble and ethics guided journalist Seth Kantor was the moral and professional antithesis to the braggadocious and attention seeking Hugh Aynesworth.

The sexual affair between Marina and Hugh Aynesworth does seem possible in at least one aspect considering Ayneworth's self-stated image of himself as quite the ladies man in his younger years. As far as the Ruth Paine/Marina intimacy interaction claim, I doubt the relationship went to that level. I could easily believe however, that Ruth Paine had physical attraction feelings for the sparkling blue, doe-eyed young beauty Marina that were stronger than just typical Quaker humanitarian ones. Seems everyone else around the young, beautiful and vulnerable Marina felt the same feelings of attraction. It can't be proven I guess, but if the story of Ruth's affectionate letter comments to Marina "I love you Marina." I want you to live with me...are true, those are powerful words of intimacy usually not said directly to another person who isn't your daughter, mom, sister, etc. In my life-time experience senses anyways. What would be the importance of such a truth? I don't know. Maybe a growing longing possessiveness and protectiveness toward Marina on Ruth's part? And Ruth hating Lee Oswald ( whom she saw as less than deserving of Marina ) even more because of it?

*******

Just beginning to read Jim Di's essay on Hugh "Clark Kent" Aynesworth. Must stop right now. However, is there enough credible evidence to verify the suggested statements attributed to Aynesworth regards his claiming to have had a sexual affair with Marina Oswald and the charge that Ruth Paine and Marina had engaged in a lesbian relationship? I have read accounts of Aynesworth claiming he was quite the ladies man in his single life. He even frequented Jack Ruby's and his sister Eva Grant's nightclub/dance joint "The Silver Spur" in the day. I noticed in one of Pat's postings that Aynesworth claimed "he just happened" to pick Dealey Plaza as a location to view the JFK/Jackie motorcade. Another "I just happened to" claim? HA just happened to be in Dealey Plaza when JFK was shot, on the Tippit shooting scene within minutes, then onto the Texas Theater scene where he personally witnessed the scuffling arrest of Oswald and then onto the Dallas PD basement Oswald shooting scene on Sunday morning. Did Aynesworth drive himself from scene to scene to scene?

Classic! So many "three times" coincidences with so many of the main characters in the JFKA story.

Did he or didn't he...? It has been reported that upon arrival to Texas and in the privacy of their Fort Worth hotel room JFK ( speaking to Jackie ) referred to Texas as "Nut Country." Texas was clearly one of most corrupt states in the union for decades and up to and beyond 11,22,1963. Corrupt from top to bottom. Texas was proud of it's corruption! They bragged about it! Them rich ole big oil boys ( the richest men on Earth at that time) didn't like them damn Yankee boys a comin' down and messin' with their business. Quote from 35 year housekeeper of Virginia Murchison ( Clint Murchison's first wife ) Mae Newman regards the Murchison family celebration response to JFK's slaughter just miles from their residences: "For a week like the champagne and caviar flowed." The mood was joyous. "I was the only one grieving for JFK." Millions of Americans weren't surprised that JFK's slaughter happened in broad daylight in ...TEXAS! They knew the big boys there ( and especially their native son Lyndon ) hated JFK to a demise wishing degree. Texas was one of the

Wow! Talk about fascinating?

In their shared employment time working for "Nardis" in Dallas ( for what 1 and 1/2 to two years?) was it possible for Jeanne LeGon and Abraham Zapruder to have never met or known each other more than casually? Jeanne LeGon had a pretty good reputation for her work in New York before she even moved to Dallas. It isn't likely that the owners of Nardis (the Golds ) would have put her up in their Mansion when she first arrived if she was a nobody in their minds. So, if Nardis had 100 employees this fact makes it unlikely Jeanne Le Gon and Abraham Zapruder would have known each other more than casually, according to Gary Mack? Of that 100, how many were simply garment sewers? Stock people? Shippers? Sales personnel? Clerks, typists, secretaries, Bookkeepers? Custodians? The majority of employees for Nardis. Now of course a lead designer would probably not have much interaction with the huge majority of those types of employees. But with the head of cutting? And a man who shared a common birthplace connection with Eugenia Fomenko (Russia) and with probably both speaking Russian? A fellow fashion industry person who worked in New York City at the same time as her? Surely there also was some employee turnover during that time. Count them as non-entities in Jeanne LeGon's employment interaction orbit as well. I once worked for a large resort hotel chain here locally for maybe 7 months. 500 employees? The majority of them in housekeeping, custodial and maintenance. In that short time I met and knew the first and last names of at least 100 employees who worked in the other departments including management, purchasing, food prep ( they hosted conventions ) front desk and concierge, etc. A head cutter and head designer in a fashion company would have known each other well imo.

Of all the things Jeanne's jilted and vindictive feeling husband could have said to get back at her for her affections toward another man ( George De Mohrenschildt ) while still married to him, telling the FBI that she was a communist spy seems so incongruously out there as to be suspicious, imo anyways. What evidence did Jeanne Legon's husband present to the FBI that apparently was taken seriously enough by them to commit at least some investigation time and effort into her and her "political activities?" If Robert LeGon was simply a certifiable mental case, one would think the FBI would have caught that fact right away and dismissed his "communist spy" allegation against his wife Jeanne as a waste of their time...no?

I just watched the full Jeff Meek interview posted above. I had never heard of him. Yet, it appears he is clearly a very well informed JFKA researcher. Wonder why his name and work hasn't come up more than it has. I related to Meek right off when he mentioned first hearing about the JFK killing while in Junior High school woodshop class. I also first heard of the shooting while in Junior High PE class. Like Meek, we were sent to our "home room" classroom where soon enough a message was sent out that all of the students were dismissed to go home. Lots of thoughts regards Meek's reflections in the interview. One hour is too short of time however, to adequately get a good grasp of Meek's full body of research work. Just one "off the top of my head" question to Meek. You cite Ruth Paine as saying her and Marina really didn't have a lot in common. Both having young children to take care of and dealing with the traumas of the day and not much else? And how this may explain why Marina did not keep in touch with Ruth immediately after and forever after they were separated. Obviously Marina was removed and isolated from most everyone within days of 11,22,1963 by the agencies. They needed to have complete interrogation control over her. And Marina really didn't have anyone else she was close to to engage with for emotional support. She wasn't close to Robert Oswald. She had no family. Lee's mother was an overbearing ... well ... irritation more than anything else? One question I have for Meek is his feeling about Ruth Paine's motivation for involving herself so closely with Marina. To the point of offering ( and even encouraging ) Marina to actually move in with her and sharing the same home. That is the most personally close situation. One that crosses a line no one else was even close to offering Marina at her vulnerable state of late pregnancy and other basic need needing time. It involved a risky confrontational situation with Marina's at times volatile husband Lee. Who had mixed feelings about his wife and child being separated from him. He did eventually agree that Ruth Paine's offer would be of benefit to his pregnant wife and child and in a better way than he was capable of providing. I do believe that some of Ruth's motivation for bringing Marina into such a close relationship with her was simple Quaker humanitarianism. Ruth had that upbringing. I knew some Quakers in my early life who were as caring and offering to others in need as Ruth was in that way. I also believe that Ruth was kind of socially lonely living by herself and with two young children. And, Marina did intrigue her with her native born Russian life and language skills, which Ruth had been drawn to study years before ever meeting Marina and Lee. I do have another gnawing suspicion thought about Ruth however. And that is that she was physically drawn to Marina beyond just platonic concern over her welfare. That she had "a crush" on her if you will. I have read at least one quote in letters Ruth sent to Marina where Ruth supposedly stated "I love you Marina." I want you to live with me. ? "I love you" is an extremely affectionate proclamation. Normal if coming from a mother, daughter, spouse etc. Perhaps not so, coming from less familial close bonds? Not sure this quote was even accurate however. Yet, if it was, it suggests at least one more motive for Ruth's all out helping hand engagement with Marina imo. And, if Ruth had developed amorous feelings for Marina, those can often cross over into ones of possessiveness. And maybe even a competitiveness with Lee Oswald for Marina's affection? Ah, it's all just speculation. And even if Ruth had fallen in love with Marina, does it mean something more nefarious in the larger picture? I don't know.

Gene, could you provide a link to the "Zapruder/Jeanny Le Gon" EF thread you mention above?

Excerpt from George De Mohrenschildt's book " I am Just A Patsy." "You and your wife were the only ones who remained his friends? Continued Jenner his line of inquiry. Their question was asked of both of us. And we answered both in about the same terms: "to us they were warm, open, young people, responsive to our hospitality." Albert Jenner then brought to my attention part of a letter I wrote to Mrs. Auchincloss from Haiti. He used this as my admission of Lee's guilt, and I had explained already under what circumstances this letter was written. "Since we lived in Dallas we had the misfortune to have met Lee Harvey Oswald and his wife Marina. I do hope that Marina and her children (now he has two by Lee) will not suffer too badly through life and that the stigma of the assassination will not affect her and the innocent children." This was my foolish letter and my speculation, not Jeanne's. And again, after the impact of this letter read to me, Jenner very cleverly bamboozled me into a possible motive of Lee's guilt. "The only reason for Lee's criminal act," I continued, "would be that he might have been jealous of a young, rich, attractive president who had a beautiful wife and was a world figure. Lee was just the opposite; his wife was bitchy and he was a failure." Now, away from the pressure of the Committee, I consider this statement of mine most unfair. It would not have made him a here to have shot a liberal and beloved president, especially beloved by the minorities, and Marina was not such a bitch, while Jacqueline was not so beautiful. Especially she was not beautiful inside when she married that gangster of international shipping Aristotle Onassis... Isn't better to think, maybe subconsciously, that the assassin was a crazy, semi-literate, ex-Marine, screwed-up, Marxist lunatic, with an undesirable discharge and a poverty-stricken childhood, unsuccessful in his pursuits both in USSR and in USA - and with a record of marriage verging on disastrous. It's better to hold to this belief for them and for the rest of the country rather than to find out that the assassination was a devilishly clever act of revenge caused by the Bay of Pigs disaster.

So many others who came forward as Dealey Plaza eyewitness photo takers and film makers who partook in subsequent interviews and appearances were always trashed by LNers as nothing more than money grubbing hawkers. But not a peep out of those critics regards Zapruder making a fortune in "leasing" his film to Life Magazine. And doing so just days after the bloody killing. If Zapruder was really that morally inclined to not wanting America to see the brutal bloodshed, he sure quickly compromised that self-righteous tenet to pocket what today would be a million dollars. He had his price. And why and how did our government police agencies exempt Zapruder's film from their immediate possession, as they forced upon so many others who filmed or took still pictures of the Dealey Plaza scene that day? And we taxpayers had to give Zapruder's family another 16 MILLION more dollars to take "Cultural Preservation " possession of their father's film? 16 million! Wow...that's a fortune! How much did photographers Orville Nix and James Altgens or even Mary Moorman make off of their immediate time of shots JFK in Dealey Plaza film and still photo pics? Zapruder and his family made a fortune off his film. So why have they been spared in the grifter charges realm affixed to other witnesses who made peanut appearance monies for sharing what they saw or photographed that day?

*******

Gene, like so many other strange connections between major players in the JFKA affair the one between Jeanne LeGon and Zapruder is too coincidental NOT to be worthy of at least some curious and even suspicious consideration. And I can't totally shake some suspicion of both Jeanne LeGon and George De Mohrenschildt maybe having some double agent roles at some point in their remarkably intrepid world travel lives. Jeanne De M's Warren Commission testimony about this supposed unplanned happen stance meet up with that Russian diplomat "Mikoyan" in Mexico City just sounds too incongruous to me...relative to their main goal travel plans of machete hacking their way through the Mexican and Central American jungle...for the purpose of getting in shape as well as a distraction for George in his grief over his son's death? George De Mohrenschildt's WC testimony is also a fascinating read imo. Also, George De Mohrenschildt was employed at a clothing design business in New York City at the same time his future wife Jeanne Le Gon was employed there in the same type of business? They actually lived close to each other at that time? Another weird coincidence?

Yes, that proposition is probably true ... to a degree. Yet, the fear of others in positions of power and influence and with nefarious intentions would for sure be another ( and in my opinion far greater) motivation for not coming forward. You must acknowledge the following truth: Tens of millions of Americans instantly felt great suspicion about the Dallas police department ( and more broadly other involved police agencies ) after watching Jack Ruby shoot Oswald in their own PD building basement on live national TV the morning of 11,24,1963. The huge majority of Americans "rationally" felt that event stunk to high heaven. And that this security failure was so impossibly improbable that they had to consider the possibility that someone on the inside was involved. The most "important" and "threatened" criminal suspect in American history was Lee Harvey Oswald. And he is gunned down less than 48 hours after JFK right inside the Dallas PD building ... and by whom? A local sleazy strip joint owner? Who was able to slip into the Dallas PD building basement unchecked and unnoticed? And get within feet of a poorly guarded, wide-open Oswald, while 70 other armed police officers are right there inside or at the basement entrances and exits? "NO WAY, NO WAY, NO WAY" I shouted out upon seeing Oswald gunned down... and as you can be sure tens of millions of others who watched that event on live TV like me (or seconds later on taped replay) also shouted out. Thousands of national and regional news articles soon exploded with conspiracy talk after Ruby shot Oswald. Why announce Oswald's transfer and even a general time frame of it to the public ahead of time? Why do this in broad daylight, instead of under the cover of night...unannounced? Oswald's killer was a known and at times presence tolerated and even favor granted shady occasional legal line crossing character to the Dallas PD? For years? He is allowed access into the press crowd inside the DPD both nights "before" the morning of 11,24,1963? He is armed both times? He is stalking Oswald? The worst case scenario security failures in American history took place "both" on 11,22,1963 AND on the morning of 11/24,1963. Of course the majority of Americans are going to instantly feel great suspicion after those impossibly improbable "double whammy" shock events and about almost every area of our government who's responsibility it was to protect our president and then Oswald. Especially right inside our own country, in broad daylight, in front of hundreds of bystanders in a public place - an "announced ahead of time" one? Right after Ruby shot Oswald is when I believe most Americans truly felt unsure about their own government. As well as huge areas of JFK hating power and wealth. Organized crime, big oil, Texas political power groups, segregationists, right wing political organizations ( based right inside Dallas!), LBJ and Hoover and Dulles, members of our highest ranking military...you name it. There is a scene in Oliver Stone's film "JFK" ( fictionalized ) that resonates the fear that witnesses truly felt about coming forward to share things they may have known about the JFKA and many characters who may have been connected to any number of events related to it. Kevin Costner's Jim Garrison is asking a witness connected to Jack Ruby and his Carousel Club ( Beverly Oliver ) to come to New Orleans and share what she heard or saw there that seemed suspicious to her regards Oswald and Ruby. After giving Garrison's request some paused and worried thought she said "If they can kill the President of the United States and get away with it"...then something close to..."well, they could easily get to little ole me." And she turns down Garrison's request. As made up as that scene and those dialogue lines were and as non-credible the real Beverly Oliver may have been, it was a metaphorical statement as to the real fear witnesses felt back in those times. The following is part of an interview of the actress who played Rose Cherami in Stone's JFK - Sally Kirkland? It's quite interesting. Sally Kirkland (Rose Cherami)(1) "I do feel very strongly about filmmakers. If there's a certain filmmaker [I admire], then I will do whatever they ask me to do. Oliver Stone, we created that little role in JFK. It wasn't in the script. I told him, "Hey, I want to work with you so badly. Just tell me what to do."(2) "In JFK, when the film opens up and you see this woman being thrown out of a car and she's screaming all kinds of obscenities, that's me. Then you see the documentary with Jackie O and Jack, and then you go to the hospital and there's this woman bandaged up, screaming about 'Kennedy's going to be assassinated,' and this and that, that's me on withdrawal. There's the reporters and doctors with me. Then I give out this blood-curdling scream which pretty much sets the tone of the film. Then they come back to me and are going to have to testify that I'm dead, on the way, on that same road where you see me. "It was a small cameo role, but the interesting thing is that Oliver [Stone] created it for me. The back story on that is that I told him, 'I've got to be in this film,' and I sent him and Kevin [Costner] flowers. So Oliver called me up and said, 'Come to my office and tell me what you want to do.' He said, 'These six women were assassinated.' I don't remember the names. He said, 'Improvise all of them.' So I improvised and he said, 'The one I liked best was Rose Cherami.' He had his people who work for him do research and send me all the information. She was drug runner and a hooker. She had a child. She was doing whatever she could to support herself and that child. She did not want Kennedy to die. She was the first person to go public and say, 'The President's going to be killed.' She wigged out. Newsweek opened up their review and said, 'One of the most authentic moments in the whole film was Rose Cherami.' If you check out the Newsweek article. They don't mention me by name, but they give it all to my character.(3)

Like I posited. Jeanne Fomenko - Legon - De Mohrenschildt was a very interesting person. Her whole life was interesting.

I feel Robinson's recollection makes the most sense. In my viewing of the Z film when slowed down, I saw an unusual and grossly uneven lifting of the top of JFK's skull in the micro-second of the bullet impact which imo clearly was depicting the breaking apart of the upper skull as Robinson described it's condition when he examined that area. I still don't understand how anyone can see the Z film, and not see a blowout of skull bone above JFK's right ear. A huge "flap" which when blown out revealed pink tissue underneath. It also looked to me that the enormous pink blood and tissue cloud that sprayed 6 ft high came from that blown out flap area. Closest eye-witness to JFK's head shot ( just 10 feet away? ) was Bill Newman. His description of JFK's right-side skull blowout matches the Z-film imo.

They were having major relationship problems from the get go. Just months after arriving here to the states. Their marriage was doomed from the start. Their incompatibility was so obvious. From Jeanne De M's testimony you can tell Marina felt comfortable and relaxed enough around J De M she revealed who she really was. Her true feelings about Lee and her life with him. No other testimony in the WC showed us the real Marina like J De M's. And to top off Marina's growing loss of feeling, attraction and even aversion to Lee was her worry about his extreme political activities and plans for more. Talking of hijacking a plane to Cuba ( with her help?) Going to see Nixon in downtown Dallas and wanting to take his handgun with him ( prompting a worried Marina to lock him in the bathroom to cut that off.) His attempt to blow General Walker away. His trip to Mexico City ( not free ) ? Oswald's public fight agitating, local news reported political activity in downtown New Orleans? Spending time doing this ( for no pay?) when his family needed help with just the basics? Oswald kept Marina in the dark about so many things he did. I don't know if Judyth Vary Baker was who she said she was...but Lee Oswald's several secretive actions starting in New Orleans clearly prove that he "could have" had a secret female friendship outside his marriage imo. And based on what we know about Marina's long term deep unsatisfied cravings for physical intimacy ( to the point of making her sick according to Jeanne De Mohrenschildt ) I could see why she was writing longing love letters to a former boyfriend back in Russia ( Lee found out when one was returned to their home due to insufficient postage. ) I could see Marina jumping into an outside romantic relationship if it presented itself and she wasn't so dependent upon others including Ruth Paine for basic food, shelter etc. Just a really sad and crumbling relationship situation for Lee and Marina, crushed even more by their poverty and total dependance on others.

Hmmm. Didn't know that. And Marina loved and craved sex as much as Lee liked to be alone reading his books. Now there's a mismatch.

Her testimony was easily one of the most interesting and even fun ones to read. The woman was a fascinating person and led a quite fascinating life. Born in China in 1914, her father was the head of the Eastern Chinese ( later Trans-Siberian ) railroad. The Russian Revolution was just beginning to take place. Her father's contrary feelings about that event and his actually distancing himself and his family from it to protect their wealth and his wife and children from it's violent repercussions was uniquely interesting in and of itself. The father and mother were later murdered in China by unknown assailants. Eugenia Fomenko struck out on her own at quite a young age. Married at 18. Danced professionally in China with her husband? Her eventual emigration to the US and how she made instant progress in lifting herself into the retail world of high finance fashion and design was remarkable. Her life here in the states besides her fashion career is just one interesting adventure after another. She was obviously a supremely confident and highly motivated person who was going to succeed no matter what. Her later life with George De Mohrenschildt was just as remarkable and adventurous. They traveled the world. Got into situations that were sometimes life and death? They were shot at in Yugoslavia as potential spies when someone noticed George sketching the coastline of a top secret island on the coast. They struggled in the rough waters in a rickety canoe and had to swim to shore and hitched a ride back to the hotel on the mainland? Another mind boggling adventure was a machete chopping, mule accompanied "walking" trip through the wilds of Mexico and the lower Central America countries. Walking almost the entire time! At one point on that "George In The Jungle" rugged wilds of Mexico trek, they just happened to find themselves in modern Mexico City just when a high ranking Russian government official ("Miyokan?" ) flew in for important doings with Mexican officials. Jeanne stated she was actually able to meet this official at his plane upon departure and how he almost "fainted" upon seeing not just her upper-class "fashion plate" elegance but also hearing her speak not just English, but flawless Russian! And by the way. Jeanne De Mohrenschildt was a very physically attractive woman. She got a job as a top model in New York at a young age. Jeanne's recollections about her interactions with Marina Oswald are more revealing than any other persons. Marina liked Jeanne more than any other in the White Russian Community of Dallas/Fort Worth...by far. Jeanne De M was truly like a mother figure to Marina. Marina could be her true relaxed self around Jeanne De M. Jeanne spoke Russian. She was world traveled and of a liberal morals and political mind set. Jeanne De M's WC testimony gave us "the real" Marina Oswald. Ruth Paine's observations and takes on Marina were nothing close to Jeanne De M's. Jeanne De M had a very intelligent and yet practical mindedness to her. I was attracted to her sharings on life. I even found her to be physically attractive. And she was funny as well! Her takes on her husband George's eccentricities were a hoot. The following is an edited version of just some of the WC testimony Of Jeanne De M. Her testimony about Marina really brought the "real' Marina to life imo. Mr. JENNER. Now, Mrs. De Mohrenschildt, you had discussions with both Marina and Lee about their difficulties? Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; we had them at the same time, in the same room. Mr. JENNER. Now, what were the reasons that she advanced as to any--as dissatisfaction? Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. What was the reasons what? Mr. JENNER. What were the reasons she said why she was dissatisfied with him? Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, there was quite a few reasons. And I tell you---it was strange for me to hear from a young girl like that to speak so, how you say it--so boldy, about sex, for instance. I was shocked by it, you know--because in my times, even I was twice as old as she. Mr. JENNER. Will you please tell me what she said? Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, she said her husband doesn't satisfy her. She just--and he is just too busy with his things, he doesn't pay enough attention to her. Mr. JENNER. That was one reason? Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is one of the main reasons, yes. And the second reason, he was cruel with her--for instance, she likes to smoke, and he would forbid her to smoke. Any little argument or something--like once something--she didn't fill his bathtub, he beat her for it. And, also, he didn't like for her to have a drink of wine. She liked wine very much. She wasn't a drunk or anything, but she likes to drink wine. And he would object to that, too. And that was their main disagreements. Mr. JENNER. What were Marina's personal habits? Was she clean and neat? Did she keep her home clean and neat? Or did her laziness spill over into those areas? Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, it was halfway, because it seems to be neat, and still not very--she was not a woman to arrange the home or make a home. I don't think so. And I don't know enough about it, because they had so few things, and they were so poor. So what can you make a home out of, nothing. You cannot really judge. You cannot. I am sure if she has things to do it with, I am sure she will. At that particular time, she could not. She didn't have enough things to make a home. The apartments they were living in in Dallas were miserable, very, very poor. Mr. JENNER. Tell me of her personality. Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I think I told you as much as I can. At the same time, in spite she is lazy--well, it is her upbringing, that is the way she was brought up. But she was a very, very pleasant girl. And she loved life, and she loved the United States, absolutely. We would drive on the streets, she would just--oh, that is the United States. That is maybe why I like her, because she give me the impression she felt like I felt when I came in. She said she was always dreaming to come to the United States. She looked at those pictures with big, big houses and everything. Did I tell you how she met Oswald, according to her? Mr. JENNER. What did she say? Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. It was in the town of Minsk. There was some kind of apartment houses, supposed to be very, very good. And she saw that house and thought, "How wonderful if I just go there to visit in that apartment house." And Lee happened to be living there. And I think Lee was sick. And she sort of nursed him out, or something like that. That is how they met. And I don't know--but it is very possible that she was very much influential in making them come back. Mr. JENNER. Come to the United States? Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Come to the United States. Mr. JENNER. That was the impression you obtained from her? Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, yes. On the other hand, he was also disappointed. He wasn't as excited as he was when he went over there, from the impressions we get from him. Mr. JENNER. From your contacts with him, you had the impression he had been disappointed in Russia? Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I asked him, "Why did you come back, if you were such a brave big hero and you threw the passport?" And as she told me, "In the American Ambassador's face in Moscow." He said, "Here is your passport, now I am going to be a Soviet citizen." And I said, "How come you are back?" He said, "I didn't find what I was looking for." Mr. JENNER. Oswald said that? Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That was Oswald's answer. "I didn't find what I was looking for." So, to me, the answer was the stupid kid decided to be obnoxious, and thinking he was a big hero went over there, and learned the hard way, burned himself, and decided to come back, and our Government was wonderful to help him at the time. And he was very conscientious about paying the debt, very conscientious. He paid it back, I think, the first thing, out of the first salary, in spite how hard it was for them to live. Those are the things. And I don't know of anybody saying anything good about him. And that made me a little mad. Nobody said anything good about him. He had a lot of good qualities. He had a lot of terrible qualities, but certainly to compare him with that horrible Ruby--Oswald had a lot of good qualities. And if people would be kinder to him, maybe, you know--maybe he wouldn't be driven to be so, and wouldn't do anything like that. I don't know whether he did or not, anyway. But he would not be involved in it. But I have the impression that he was just pushed, pushed, pushed, and she was probably nagging, nagging, nagging. Mr. JENNER. You found her to be a nagger? Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; oh, yes; she ribbed him even in front of us. Mr. JENNER. She did? Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. She did. She ribbed him so, that if I would ever speak to my husband that way we would not last long. I would not do it. Because I could see---- Mr. JENNER. What did she say? You see---- Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, big hero, or look at that big shot, something like that. Mr. JENNER. When you say she ribbed him in front of us, that doesn't mean anything to us. That is a conclusion. What did she say to him? Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Let me try to remember exactly. Don't forget, I am telling right now impressions. It is very difficult to remember exact words. But certain things led to leave that impression in my mind. Mr. JENNER. Mrs. De Mohrenschildt, it happens that you and George, having the time, having the inclination, being the kind of people you are, you saw more of the Oswalds than anybody else. And what I am trying to do is to obtain from you, not only your impressions, but how you came by them. Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. But what I want to tell you--I don't think it is correct. We didn't see them more than anybody else. In fact, we saw them maybe less, because she never lived with us--she stayed once overnight. And they have been very, very seldom at our house, very, very seldom. I cannot exactly tell how many times. But you can count it on your fingers how many times. And usually it was when finally I find the time and I said come over and I will make dinner for you, or something like that, because I knew they were not eating very well. He didn't care for it at all, but she did. She liked to eat well, and good things. So that was the only occasion we saw them. So I think other people saw them even more. For instance, the people that she lived with, absolutely, because he used to come and visit her. Mr. JENNER. Well, you were more direct with her and with him, you and your husband, because primarily his disposition is to speak his mind, and Oswald respected your husband. Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. He did. He respected him, and he respected me. And maybe that is what makes the difference with the rest of the crowd. He never was respectful. Once, as I said, he was a little--showed a little violence, and he said he will break all the baby's toys and tear her dresses if we take her away from him. I said, "Lee, where will that get you? If you really love Marina that is the last thing you should do, then you lose her forever." And he sort of boiled and boiled. He sat quietly, you know. And he said, all right, he would not do it. Mr. JENNER. Now, I asked you as to the sources of difficulty, and you related them. Did she twit him about his inability to make enough money so that she could live better? Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. "Yes. That was one complaint. Another complaint, sexwise." "he wasn't satisfactory for her. In fact, she was almost sick that she wasn't getting enough sex, which I never heard of before." Mr. JENNER. Now, you were going to tell me the basis on which you formed your opinion as to her, you say, nagging. You used the term "ribbing." This was not jocular, was it--not joking? It was irritating? Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. It was irritating. That he was a big shot, reading, reading, reading. Mr. JENNER. Would say that in your presence? Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. Mr. JENNER. She would ridicule him, in other words? Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, in a way, yes. She said things that will hurt men's pride. That definitely was.