Denny Zartman

It sure looks like Shelley to me.

He doesn't care. He's made up his mind. He considers Ruth Paine a friend, and no amount of facts will change his mind about her. He will defend her no matter what.

Ah, so Ruth was coveting her neighbor's wife too, another sin on the pile. And are we still expected to believe that she is a "good Christian woman?" Can we at least put that ridiculous notion to bed once and for all? The most infuriating part of all of this is that we're all just forgetting that Paine cold-called Truly and got Lee his job at the TSBD. Ruth Paine did not get Lee Harvey Oswald his job at the TSBD because she wanted to jump Marina's bones. 1. That's ridiculous, and 2. It reduces the conspiracy to kill JFK to a Rube Goldbergesque random chain of events more akin to a "Final Destination" horror movie than reality.

Actually, including this thread, it's SEVEN since April 10th. Is there or is there not a Minox camera in this DPD evidence photo? https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/27703-is-there-or-is-there-not-a-minox-camera-in-this-dpd-evidence-photo/ April 10, 2022 - The timing and content of the "we both know who was responsible" phone call of Ruth and Michael Paine https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/27706-the-timing-and-content-of-the-we-both-know-who-was-responsible-phone-call-of-ruth-and-michael-paine/ April 16, 2022 - Ruth Paine in Nicaragua: counterpoint to "The Assassination & Mrs. Paine" https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/27720-ruth-paine-in-nicaragua-counterpoint-to-the-assassination-mrs-paine/ April 23, 2022 - An unjust accusation: Ruth Paine and the TSBD job of Oswald https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/27730-an-unjust-accusation-ruth-paine-and-the-tsbd-job-of-oswald/ April 27, 2022 - The Secret Service never told Marina that Ruth Paine was CIA--never happened https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/27734-the-secret-service-never-told-marina-that-ruth-paine-was-cia-never-happened/ April 29, 2022 - An appeal to end the unjust abuse of Ruth Paine over the "Walker Note" https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/27738-an-appeal-to-end-the-unjust-abuse-of-ruth-paine-over-the-walker-note/ May 1, 2022 - Did Ruth Paine incriminate Lee Harvey Oswald? https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/27742-did-ruth-paine-incriminate-lee-harvey-oswald/ May 2, 2022 - - - Why is Greg working so feverishly to defend Ruth Paine? According to him, it's out of a sense of personal friendship. Quote “And as to why, consider it sticking up for a friend. If you saw a friend smeared and wrongly accused, I think you would do the same” https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/27733-is-this-the-warm-up-for-the-60th/?do=findComment&comment=458901

Ruth Paine, the dangerous ACLU fanatic who did nothing when someone she knew needed legal representation. Ruth Paine, the good Christian woman who hates and judged Oswald guilty before he ever had a chance to defend himself.

She found him a job... because she hated him. She tried to him driving lessons... because she hated him. She let him store his stuff in her garage even though he had his own place... because she hated him. You really think this makes sense?

But I was told she was a good Christian woman. And she holds hate in her heart?

Ruth probably thought her sister worked for the ACLU.

Precisely.

Is there or is there not a Minox camera in this DPD evidence photo? https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/27703-is-there-or-is-there-not-a-minox-camera-in-this-dpd-evidence-photo/ April 10, 2022 - The timing and content of the "we both know who was responsible" phone call of Ruth and Michael Paine https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/27706-the-timing-and-content-of-the-we-both-know-who-was-responsible-phone-call-of-ruth-and-michael-paine/ April 16, 2022 - Ruth Paine in Nicaragua: counterpoint to "The Assassination & Mrs. Paine" https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/27720-ruth-paine-in-nicaragua-counterpoint-to-the-assassination-mrs-paine/ April 23, 2022 - An unjust accusation: Ruth Paine and the TSBD job of Oswald https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/27730-an-unjust-accusation-ruth-paine-and-the-tsbd-job-of-oswald/ April 27, 2022 - The Secret Service never told Marina that Ruth Paine was CIA--never happened https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/27734-the-secret-service-never-told-marina-that-ruth-paine-was-cia-never-happened/ April 29, 2022 - How many more threads are needed? It appears to me that this particular member of the forum has an agenda. It seems he's defending Ruth Paine out of a sense of friendship. https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/27733-is-this-the-warm-up-for-the-60th/?do=findComment&comment=458901

I'll try to re-create my post here in more detail. I also have never heard of this second phone conversation between Ruth and Michael Paine that was allegedly overheard by an operator and the details released only after the operator's passing. It seems strange to me if it were faked to implicate the Paines. For success, this fake conversation would rely on the operator overhearing the conversation and then doing something about it. Basically relying on hope alone to do the job. It just doesn't ring true. And even if reported, the plan then relies on the authorities to continue on down the line, and for what? To motivate the Paines to cooperate lest they be falsely implicated in JFK's murder? It just seems 1. there would be more direct ways to do such a thing and with physical manufactured evidence like a letter or a recording of the conversation, 2. I don't see the Paine's acting very reluctant to join in the cover up, 3. By getting Oswald his job at the TSBD and having his family and alleged weapon at their home, the Paine's are already kinda sorta mixed up and would be primary subjects of interest if and when any authorities suspected a conspiracy and proceeded to investigate. Time was of the essence and the participation of the Paine's would be vital to the conspirators. To try and influence the Paine's by faking an incriminating phone conversation and then just hoping that it would somehow be overheard and acted on by both the operator and the authorities seems odd. It might have taken days or weeks, if it was acted on at all. We have numerous examples of the authorities actively discouraging witnesses from saying anything that conflicts with the lone nut theory. Why would we expect them to suddenly change course and act on this overheard conversation?

That was a good review that made for interesting reading. Thanks, James. I am curious as to why Martin believes the anterior neck wound was an exit wound, though. I was under the impression that the back wound was probed at Bethesda and found to be shallow, and that all the doctors and nurses who saw the wound at Parkland before the tracheostomy said it appeared to be an entrance wound.

In Josiah Thompson's 2021 book "Last Second In Dallas" pg. 24, Thompson reports that Parkland hospital Security Director O.P. Wright described the bullet later identified as CE 399 as a bullet with a pointed tip. Is there anything about the weapon that can be deduced from that bullet shape? Would that type of ammunition have fit in the 6.5 Carcano? Would it have fit in a 7.65 Mauser? What kinds of hulls would have been ejected from that type of pointed tip ammunition? Would hulls from a pointed bullet or from whatever ammunition would fit a 7.65 Mauser be recognizably different in appearance from the hulls found near the sixth-floor window?

Who could ever possibly confuse the ACLU with the CIA? What's next? Mixing up the FBI with the Fraternal Order of Police? If Marina twice agreed with the characterization that it was the CIA, logic suggests she meant what she said. Where is the logic in proceeding with the assumption that she made a mistake? We already know Ruth's sister worked for the CIA. Ruth also knew George de Mohrenschildt, another person connected with the CIA that just happened to be the fellow that brought the Paines and the Oswalds together. That's two clear connections between the CIA and Ruth Paine, one of those connections going to the Oswalds themselves, and we're expected to ignore that and go with a mistake? (Technically two mistakes, since she was was invited to clarify her answer a second time and for the second time confirmed that she indeed meant CIA.) How do you know what the Secret Service knew and what they didn't, or what they would or would not have told Marina at that time?

It's difficult for me to understand why any self-described conspiracy theorist would feel this compelled to defend Ruth Paine in the first place. Ruth undoubtedly got Oswald his job at the TSBD. That in and of itself should be a red flag imho. People really believe that there was a conspiracy, yet they also believe that the most vital elements of that conspiracy fell into place by random chance, coincidence, and luck? I support the concept of having dedicated Devil's Advocates giving even small assumptions the most rigorous of tests. I think this case is important enough for that kind of close examination. But in my view arguing that the Paines were not involved is like standing outside at noon on a cloudless day and insisting that it's midnight.

But it seems to me that at some point very soon after the assassination Ruth must have known she was part of framing Oswald. She and her hand-picked Russian translator sat in on Marina's police interrogation, didn't they?

That's an interesting theory, @Sandy Larsen. There's such an incongruity between the conspirators setting it up for Cuba and the USSR to take the blame and those that engineered the cover-up to blame it on a lone nut with no motive. Have you factored in the Odio and the Parrot Jungle incidents? I'd be curious how they fit into your theory and what what you think they reveal about the mechanics of the plot.

Looks fake to me.

I agree.

I personally believe a Mauser was first found on the sixth floor and was perhaps meant to be found. Whether or not that means another patsy was considered or that somehow the original plan to link the Mauser to Oswald fell through, I do not know. I also believe the dent in the chrome trim of the limo was a direct hit. I believe there were at least two conspirators on the sixth floor, neither of them Oswald. Whether they were firing live rounds of not, I can't say. It seems it would be a waste not to have another shooter in the mix. Two riflemen on the sixth floor seems dubious. It seems more logical to have one shooter and one spotter, three teams of two, not including Umbrella Man and Dark Complexioned Man (or maybe even including them, based on how one feels about the possibility of an umbrella gun.) I've always found it very suspicious that a whole vehicle load of press going north on Houston were all looking straight ahead at the TSBD, at least one reporter having the time to point out a shooter in the window, yet apparently not one was quick enough to snap a picture. I don't know enough about what evidence there is for a South Knoll shooter, to be honest. I believe there is a documentary where that theory emerged from the analysis of the skull fractures, suggesting the blowout in the rear of the skull was actually a tangential wound. I'm not a doctor, but from what I know it seems more likely to me that it was a shot from in front. I've always felt there was something wrong about the v shaped incision we see in that one autopsy photo and I suspect that v was the result of covering up an entrance would. I definitely don't think Hickey or anyone else in the motorcade did it. I'm really skeptical of any shooters from a storm drain, but as I understand it, the possibility of the drains being used as escape routes might be plausible. I'm guessing Connelly was hit twice, though there times is a possibility. I do believe the doctors that said the bullet was still in his thigh at the time of their press briefing, and that that particular bullet in Connally's leg conveniently disappeared from the record.

Greg has made up his mind on this issue and will never deviate from his belief that Paine is innocent.

This is excellent news long overdue. I'm very happy for Mr. Bolden.

And what do we have to affix the time of the call, other than Ruth Paine's word? I don't view the "we both know who's responsible" phone call in a vacuum as Greg seems to want us to do. I personally believe there was a government led conspiracy to kill JFK and that Ruth and Michael Paine played roles in the mechanics of the plot both before and after the assassination. This has been demonstrated to my personal satisfaction independent of the phone call in question. Therefore I am of the opinion that, regardless of the time of the phone call, the statement "we both know who's responsible" was not just idle speculation from uninvolved observers but rather from persons who were in close proximity to the plot.

So when they heard the news of the JFK assassination, the Paines slapped their foreheads and said it was obvious that rabid right wingers who hated JFK and had clear motives to kill him were responsible. And then minutes later when they heard that Oswald was arrested, the Paines again slapped their foreheads and said it was obvious that the left winger who had expressed no antipathy toward JFK and had no motive to kill him was responsible. How can anyone say the Paines arrived at two diametrically opposed conclusions within minutes and call both of those conclusions obvious?

It seems to me that the difference between yourself and millions just like you assuming it was some rabid right winger was the fact that the Paines were in a position to know, since they were in such close contact with the accused assassin and allegedly had the accused assassins rifle under their roof. If the Paines genuinely suspected some right winger with an easily comprehensible motive was responsible, then why didn't they help Oswald get a lawyer? They knew Oswald was no right winger and had expressed no antipathy towards JFK.