Denny Zartman

You're doing a heck of a job with these podcasts. Well done, @Robbie Robertson.

Exactly right. Anything that didn't fit the official story of LHO acting alone was suppressed and/or replaced. It wasn't ever intended to be an honest investigation. It was intended to pin the blame on one patsy. There's testimony that a Mauser was in the building two days before. It was reported that they discovered a Mauser on the 22nd. Yet people on this forum look at replacing a Mauser with a Mannlicher Carcano as if it was some kind of incredible, impossible feat. An inconvenient piece of evidence was substituted as the cover story evolved in the first 24 hours. It's no mean trick, but to hear some of the people on this forum go on about it, you'd think they turned lead to gold.

It's funny that people here think they can comfortably ID a MC from a photo or a film taken at a distance, but the people who were actually there, who saw the rifle in three dimensions, and actually handled the most important piece of evidence that they would likely ever handle in their entire professional lives, evidence that had "made Italy cal 6.5" printed on it, and they just couldn't identify it correctly. Did they just pick the 7.65 caliber from thin air, and then sign an affidavit to a blind guess? Or maybe people here believe the authorities wouldn't ever be so dishonest as to substitute evidence in this case. It sure looks like a Mauser has "Mauser" written on it, but that's irrelevant because we know for a fact that the MC in evidence has "made Italy cal 6.5" on it. To believe that the cops found a Mannlicher Carcano means also believing that the cops could not read.

I no longer have any doubt that a 7.65 Mauser was found that day and correctly identified as such. It seems to me in order to believe a Mauser was not found, one would also have to believe the cops could not read. The MC had "made Italy 6.5 cal" stamped on it. Now some of the questions for me personally are: was the Mauser the rifle that was intended to be found? Was the Mauser also linked to Oswald, or to someone else? Do the backyard photos have something to do with replacing the Mauser with the Mannlicher? Is there anything useful we can learn from the type of ammunition used by the Mauser?

I think a lot of young people don't see much relevance in the JFK assassination these days. JFK was not an active figure in their lifetime and increasingly not even in their parent's lifetimes. I think what FDR might or might not have known prior to Pearl Harbor would be a comparable example of a historical event also irrelevant to their interests or lives. Something like that would be of interest to those who already had an interest, otherwise it's just a historical mystery involving people that were never current for them. Of course, interest in true crime mysteries never really go completely out of style. Unfortunately the JFK assassination comes with a lot more baggage than the event spotlighted in your average Netflix true crime series. Almost every single person's first exposure to the JFKA is in the context of someone else characterizing conspiracy theories as crazy. In TV and movies, any conspiracy-minded character has to spout off some sort of wacky connection or theory about the JFKA. In comedies, the wackier the better. It's almost obligatory. That conspiracy theorists are wacky is something the online LN t_r-o_l-l_s take as a natural fact of life. Most of them have never read a single book or seen even one documentary on the subject, but they all know the conventional wisdom that JFKA buffs wear tinfoil hats, twiddle shortwave radio knobs, and think Mr. Spock was shooting from the grassy knoll. So there will always be that contingent of folks who are uninformed LN's constantly attacking those people who think there might be more to the story than what we've been told. They will only grow more strident with time, I believe. Sunk cost fallacy and all that. Regarding the people who believe the "Hickey did it" theory, I would wager 95% have never read a JFKA book or seen any other documentary than "JFK: The Smoking Gun", mainly because of its wide availability on free streaming platforms. The Hickey theory also provides them an answer to what happened, while more serious JFKA docs don't come up with a final conclusion that points to one person or a conclusive single account of all events. The Hickey theory is easily comprehensible. It can be digested in an hour or two, while dedicated researchers repeatedly spend decade after decade debating and discussing the fine details of every obscure aspect.

News story: https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/exclusive-tour-inside-lee-harvey-oswald-exhibit-detailing-notorious-dallas-history/3037101/ Photos: https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/inside-the-unt-dallas-law-schools-lee-harvey-oswald-exhibit/3036978/ Now a law school, the site of the former Dallas police department has a new exhibit on Lee Harvey Oswald. The exhibits are not yet open to the public, but may be open on the weekends for visitors to see sometime in the future. The photos link has interesting pictures of locations in the building that have been preserved but apparently will not be open to the general public because most of the building is a functioning school. What do you think? Would you want to visit?

I don't see what Clemmons had to gain from making anything up. She didn't seem to be seeking fame. From what I understand, she initially declined to talk about what she saw and only relented because she recognized Mark Lane as one of the Freedom Riders. I also seem to remember that another witness described a potential suspect that had bushy hair, but I can't recall specifically who said that. In my opinion, two kinds of ammo at the scene of a shooting strongly suggests two shooters. Also, for the record, I believe at least one witness unrelated to Clemmons has linked Roscoe White to the Tippit shooting. Based on what I've read, (and contrary to the photo of him on record), White allegedly wore a bushy hairpiece .

A lot of folks have never read a JFK book and "The Smoking Gun" is the only JFK documentary they have ever seen in their lives. Streaming for free on so many services has a tremendous advantage. Also, you're right in the Hickey theory is easily comprehensible and gives them a name, which is just naturally going to be more satisfying than an open ended conclusion with multiple potential culprits. (I just joined Reddit, and I plan to stay far away from their JFK discussions.)

James Sibert and Francis O’Neill FBI Teletype - November 23, 1963 Quote: ONE BULLET HOLE LOCATED JUST BELOW SHOULDERS TO RIGHT OF SPINAL COLUMN AND HAND PROBING INDICATED TRAJECTORY AT ANGLE OF FORTY FIVE TO SIXTY DEGREES DOWNWARD AND HOLE OF SHORT DEPTH WITH NO POINT OF EXIT. NO BULLET LOCATED IN BODY. PATHOLOGIST OF OPINION BULLET WORKED WAY OUT OF BACK DURING CARDIAC MASSAGE PERFORMED AT DALLAS End Quote https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=680 - Sibert and O’Neill Report - November 26, 1963 Quote During the latter stages of this autopsy, Dr. HUMES located an opening which appeared to be a bullet hole which was below the shoulders and two inches to the right of the middle line of the spinal column. This opening was probed by Dr. HUMES with the finger, at which time it was determined that the trajectory of the missile entering at this point had entered at a downward position of 45 to 60 degrees. Further probing determined that the distance travelled by this missile was a short distance inasmuch as the end of the opening could be felt with the finger. Inasmuch as no complete bullet of any size could be located in the brain area and likewise no bullet could be located in the back or any other area of the body as determined by total body X–Rays and inspection revealing there was no point of exit, the individuals performing the autopsy were at a loss to explain why they could find no bullets. A call was made by Bureau agents to the Firearms Section of the FBI Laboratory, at which time SA CHARLES L. KILLION advised that the Laboratory had received through Secret Service Agent RICHARD JOHNSON a bullet which had reportedly been found on a stretcher in the emergency room of Parkland Hospital, Dallas, Texas. This stretcher had also contained a stethescope [sic] and pair of rubber gloves. Agent JOHNSON had advised the Laboratory that it had not been ascertained whether or not this was the stretcher which had been used to transport the body of President Kennedy. Agent KILLION further described this bullet as pertaining to a 6.5 millimeter rifle which would be approximately a 25 calibre rifle and that this bullet consisted of a copper alloy full jacket. Immediately following receipt of this information, this was made available to Dr. HUMES who advised that in his opinion this accounted for no bullet being located which had entered the back region and that since external cardiac massage had been performed at Parkland Hospital, it was entirely possible that through such movement the bullet had worked its way back out of the point of entry and had fallen on the stretcher. End Quote https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=625#relPageId=5 - Sibert and O’Neill ARRB Memo - June 29, 1966 Quote Later in the week a telephone call was received from the Bureau supervisor FLETCHER THOMPSON, who advised that he had additional questions pertaining to captioned matter and stated that he desired to know whether or not at least one agent was present in the autopsy room during the time that the autopsy was in progress and until it was completed. He was advised that such was the case and that if one agent was out of the room it was understood and followed that the other agent was present at all times and that at no time were both agents out of this room from the time that the autopsy began until it was terminated. Mr. THOMPSON also asked if the Pathologist conducting the autopsy had made any mention of a bullet passing out of the neck at the point that the tracheotomy had been preformed [sic] at Parkland Hospital, at Dallas, Texas. He was advised that no such statement was made and that in fact the Pathologist was quite concerned concerning injury in the back and could not find a point of exit for this bullet neither could he find the projectile. Mr. THOMPSON was further advised that at that time Agent SIBERT had telephonically contacted SA CHARLES L. KILLIAN in the Firearms Section at the Bureau at which time it had been ascertained that a bullet had been found on a stretcher in the Parkland Hospital and this information was relayed to the Pathologist conducting the autopsy who stated that in all probability this accounted for no bullet being found in the body in the back region and that such had probably been worked out by cardiac massage which had been performed when the President was on a stretcher at Parkland Hospital. End Quote https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=688#relPageId=2 - James Sibert, interviews by William Matson Law “In The Eye Of History” Second Edition 2015 Quote Law: Did you notice anything else in Specter’s book? Sibert: Well, let’s see. On page 79 there’s a statement that’s sort of misleading: “As the autopsy progressed, the surgeons realized that the bullet had passed further through the president’s neck. They saw the muscles.” Now, I was there until midnight, for all practical purposes the autopsy had been completed , and there was nothing mentioned about this going on through the neck and all that, muscles and stuff. I don’t know when that was. Law: If the didn’t dissect the neck that night, how could they know that? Sibert: That’s it. They didn’t. Law: Everybody I’ve talked to said they never touched it. Sibert: No, they never touched that tracheotomy. As I said, the opinion was that the one in the back had been worked out by cardiac manipulation over at Parkland and fell out on the stretcher, you see? “In The Eye Of History” Second Edition 2015, Pg. 330 Sibert: …so they found this [back wound] and they started probing it with their rubber-gloved finger. They also used a chrome probe that they pressed in there, and said, “There’s no exit.” Finck and Humes and Boswell all agreed. IBID, Pg. 349 Law: Do you remember the feeling when they couldn’t find the bullet? Sibert: Yeah - it was frustration. They said, “There’s no exit!” This was the words that they used probing that, and that’s when I went in and made this call, see? And that’s when Humes assumed that was why there was no exit, because this bullet had just gone in a short ways and cardiac manipulation - when they tried to resuscitate the president, which was an impossibility - it fell out on the stretcher, out of his back. IBID, Pg. 394 End Quote - Paul K. O’Connor, interviews with William Maston Law Quote O’Connor: It got very tense. Admiral Galloway started getting very agitated again, because there was a wound in his neck. Now the wound - and of course I had seen tracheotomies, where you make an incision and you make it up and down to put in a tube to help a person breathe - the wound was a big gash and more horizontal - and I remember the doctors were going to check that out when Admiral Galloway told them, “Leave it alone. Don’t touch it. It’s just a tracheotomy.” Law: So he basically stopped anyone from going further? O’Connor: He stopped anybody from going further. Drs. Humes and Boswell, Dr. Finck, were told to leave it alone, let’s go to other things.. IBID, Pg. 198 O’Connor: …Dr. Humes took his finger and poked it in the hole - the bullet wound hole, the entrance-wound hole - and said it didn’t go anywhere. There was a very big argument, a lot of consternation, that he shouldn’t have stuck his finger in the hole. Law: what difference would it make? O’Connor: Well, when you take your finger and stick it in a bullet wound, you avulse the wound, which means that you make the wound abnormal. Law: You think that happened when he stuck his finger in the back? O’Connor: Yes. Law: Could it have created a false track? O’Connor: Well, not necessarily a false track as much as a false impression of the entrance of the missile that went into his back. Law: Who was arguing? O’Connor: Dr. Finck had come over from the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology at Walter Reed Army Hospital. He was a forensic pathologist and he strongly objected to Commander Humes doing what he did. He took a sound. Now a sound is a probe, a metal malleable, non-rigid probe. Malleable means you can move it back and forth and bend it a little bit and trace a bullet path straight through a body and a rigid probe will trace its path all the way through. We started out with a rigid probe and found that it only went so far. I’d say maybe an inch and a quarter. It didn’t go any further than that. So we used a malleable probe and it bent it a little bit and found out that the bullet entered the body, went through the intercostal muscles, didn’t touch any of the ribs, arched downwards, hit the back of the pleural cavity, which encases the lungs, both front and back. It bounced off that cavity and stopped. (Photo 10) O’Connor: [continued] So we didn’t know the track of the bullet until we eviscerated the body later. That’s what happened at that time. We traced the bullet path down and found out it didn’t traverse the body. It did not go in one side and come out the other side of the body. Law: You can be reasonably sure of that? O’Connor: Absolutely. Law: It was just from the probe then? O’Connor: Oh yes. Law: And these doctors knew that? O’Connor: Absolutely. Law: While it happened? O’Connor: Absolutely. And another thing, we found out, while the autopsy was proceeding, that he was shot from a high building, which meant the bullet had to be traveling in a downward trajectory and we realized that this bullet - that hit him in the back - is what we called in the military a “short shot,” which means that the powder in the bullet was defective so it didn’t have the power to push the projectile - the bullet - clear through the body. If it had been a full shot at the angle he was shot, it would have come out through his heart and through his sternum. IBID, Pgs. 199-200 Photo 10: Pg. 469 End Quote - James C. Jenkins, interviews by William Matson Law Quote: Law: Giving your opinion based on your experiences would you say that a bullet could enter the back like that and go out the president’s throat? Jenkins: I wouldn’t think so because it was below that wound. Later in the autopsy I helped Dr. Boswell remove the organs from the body and we were sectioning the organs and weighing them. And Dr. Humes and Dr. Finck were trying to probe that wound. Law: And what did they probe it with? Jenkins: Humes probed it, to begin with, with his little finger. Humes has huge hands. Humes is a big man. And then they used a probe. I could see his finger and I could see the probes behind the pleural area in the back and it never did break into the pleural cavity. And the wound actually went down and stopped. Law: In essence, from what you saw, the wound did not go upwards toward the throat? You feel that it went down? Jenkins: It seemed to have gone down and stopped. It didn’t break into the pleural cavity. Law: Did they have a discussion about this? Jenkins: They were a little upset about it. IBID, Pgs. 226-227 Law: Now this last thing was something that Paul O’Connor had drawn up (photo 10). Would you agree with that? Jenkins: I would say that’s probably what happened. I think this is certainly plausible in the fact that there is an entrance wound here, and it goes between the ribs and stops here. The probing that I saw indicated that there was a dead end behind the pleural cavity. Law: So it did indicate that there was a dead end? Jenkins: Yes, that there was no entrance into the pleural cavity, which would have been here. And before they were pressing on the pleura with the probes and their fingers. IBID, Pg. 246 End Quote.

Exactly. I hate to make Lincoln/Kennedy comparisons, but in the Lincoln assassination there was 1. A conspiracy, and 2. An assassin that couldn't wait to take credit for the deed. LHO had no motive. Trying to allegedly take a shot at right wing Walker and then allegedly at left wing Kennedy, any presumed political motive makes no sense. The Lone Nut advocates say that he was a little man that wanted to be a big man; to be someone important; to make his mark on history. But how was he going to go down in history by refusing to take credit for it? The best I've heard from the LN's was that Oswald wanted to reveal himself as the assassin at his trial (as if it would have been some shock to the media) and use his trial as a political soapbox of sorts. I always ask what precedent this has in history. When has any assassin proclaimed their innocence after being accused of a crime and then later proudly took credit for it in court?

It's hard for me to understand why the LN's are so determined to prove Oswald was Tippit's killer. In my view the official story is plenty suspicious in and of itself and suggests a conspiracy, so it's not like anyone is scoring points for the Lone Nut theory by "proving" LHO did it. At least that's how I see it.

I think I'm developing a Lone Nut allergy. Symptoms include rolling of eyes, shaking of head, and busting of gut.

More "playing pretend with the LN's." It's funny that the LN's are absolutely incredulous at the very idea of the possible existence of a dud bullet, but a magic bullet that causes seven wounds on two men, smashing two bones and embedding itself in a thigh, then working itself out of that thigh, climbing under the mat on an unrelated hospital gurney, changing itself from a pointed tip to a rounded tip, cleaning itself of all blood, flesh, fibers, and bone, and then emerging virtually unscathed compared to other test bullets fired into the wrists of cadavers... no problem at all. Dud bullets exist. Magic bullets do not.

In one of the very first conversations I ever had about the JFK assassination someone pointed out that guys like George de Mohrenshildt don't just "make friends" with guys like Oswald. Setting aside the fact that the two only met at the behest of CIA's J. Walton Moore, try to imagine how realistic it would be to believe that the alleged psychotic rifle-polishing ill-tempered Marxist loner actually became best friends with an aristocratic White Russian. Best friends? According to the W.C., de Mohrenshildt might have been Oswald's only friend.

I'm grateful for @Vince Palamara for posting all those references about the depth of JFK's back wound. I thought I was missing something while reading all this debate. From what I have read, the back wound was found to be shallow. The doctors at Bethesda reported that they could feel the end of the back wound with a finger. They tried to examine it with probes with no success. They were confused when discussing it with each other. Finally they called Parkland, learned about the discovery of a bullet there, then concluded that the bullet that made the back wound fell out of JFK's back when they were doing chest compressions in Dallas. It seems the back wound was never tracked through the body. It should be noted that the single bullet theory was not a theory arrived at by doctors, but devised by a lawyer. We could go on and talk about the rest of the implausibility regarding CE 399, but in my opinion it's academic. All indications are that it was a shallow wound, and if so, the single bullet theory ends there.

I believe Roger Craig. There's support for his observations about the discovery of the Mauser. If there wasn't the picture of him in the Sherriff's office he would have been branded a l*i*a*r over that. He didn't become rich and famous. No one outside JFK forums knows his name or his story. He could have just kept quiet or supported the official story like so many others did. He knew the risk he was taking. It seems that Craig was shot at, his car exploded, another car was forced off the road, and his life apparently ended in suicide: shooting himself in the chest with a rifle that he didn't own. Now his reputation and his honesty are still under attack decades later. In my opinion, it's a shame. It's because of the courage of individuals like Craig who put the truth above their personal interest that we have as much information as we do about what actually happened that day.

It seems like a strong case could be made that the handgun was planted. As someone pointed out in another thread, if Oswald had actually tried to pull the trigger on one of the cops arresting him in the theater, he would/should have been charged with that as soon as he got to the police station. Especially if they did have either a dented primer or a cop who could testify that they stopped the hammer of the gun. The corroded shells also seem to indicate that they were in gunbelt loops for some time. Gil, do you have an opinion on when the backyard photos were taken or made?

Am I the only one seeing what appears to be two people emerging from behind pillars in the pergola near Sitzman and Zapruder?

I mentioned it in one of the other Bell gif threads in this series, but to me it really speaks volumes that most everyone around her has hit the deck, even on the other side of the street, but she's completely still. And it does seem to me that she has a camera and appears to be lowering her arms just after the assassination.

Thanks for the information, Pat. I will have to try and track down Griggs' book. I was always curious to hear directly from someone who had done it and what their experience was like. I don't imagine that assembling anything entirely with a dime would be easy at all. Plus, it's sort of puzzling how a guy can get to Mexico City and back as well as smuggle a rifle into the TSBD, but the same guy couldn't get to a hardware store or smuggle in an actual tool.

Thanks. I thought so, I just wanted to make sure first. Looking at these gifs it sure seems that everyone around Babushka Lady hit the deck when the shooting started, but it appears B.L. herself didn't move at all. I think I see her arms lowering slightly as if she had her hands up to her face, but obviously she didn't think she was in any danger of being hit by a bullet, unlike the others around her. Then there is a moment after that when B.L., Hill, and a man in white pants are all standing together, and that's what I found confusing. I had always assumed everyone started streaming up the knoll immediately after the limo left sight. But those three are standing still and observing, and don't seem to be in any hurry to go anywhere. The white pants man actually looks like he has his hands in his pockets. It seems it's a moment later before Hill crosses the street and appears to be going west for a moment before many, Hill and B.L. included, begin running up the knoll. I'll have to check Hill's book again.

So odd. Does anyone know the name of the lady in the bright red coat?

Is that Babushka Lady in the tan coat and pink hat?

I remember here years ago someone had gotten hold of a Carcano and was going to attempt to assemble it using a dime and then report back on how it went. Does anyone know if there was a follow up on that, or know of anyone else who had done that and could say how easy or difficult it was?

And in my opinion there would have been several additional stress factors that I rarely see mentioned: running up five flights of stairs just prior to shooting, committing a first murder, attempting to kill a president, and all of the probable consequences of that murder (which surely would have been a trip to the electric chair.)