John Butler

John K, I really haven't given that a thought thinking computer research was much easier. Back in the day, early 1980s to late 1990s, when I was doing genealogical research in a big way research at libraries, archives, etc was fairly hard to do. Sitting in front of the computer was much easier. I really have not done any family history research for about 20 years and am not aware of possible improvements at these types of institutions. The old way of library or archive personnel help, looking in indexes, filing cabinets, and microfilm was difficult and time consuming. I think the computer searching is still good. Look at the significant data we've pulled up in a short period of time.

It just struck me that we haven't looked at the FBI report on the Tippit call as closely as one should. The mysterious caller said she: "THAT SHE WAS FROM NEW YORK AND HAD TO COME "HERE" TO MAKE THE CALL SO THAT SHE COULD NOT BE TRACED AS SHE WAS IN FEAR OF HER END PAGE ONE PAGE TWO: LIFE" Coming here refers to where the Tippit's lived in New Haven, Conn. from New York, NY. What kind of trip would that have been and how much effort would that take. The internet info below shows that it was not an insignificant thing that the mysterious caller did to travel from New York, NY to New Haven, CONN. It is traveling by train or auto some 80 miles in November cold of the north. This woman, the mysterious caller, felt she had to tell someone about what she knew. She clearly understood how dangerous it was to reveal this kind of information. Lee Harvey Oswald had died and she thought others would follow, herself included if she was exposed. By linking what she knew to the J. D. Tippit shooting and telling it to a relative of Officer Tippit she probably thought that would limit her exposure. She said "THE WOMAN REQUESTED THAT NOTHING BE SAID TO THE PRESS ABOUT A WOMAN CALLING AS THEY WOULD KNOW HER IDENTITY AND SHE WOULD BE KILLED." She probably didn't realize that the Tippits giving this information to the FBI may have had serious consequences. Fortunately, the FBI decided to bury the information provided by he Tippits.

That's pretty much my opinion on the Ramaz school. Just trying to help Paul J. and John K. I haven't checked for schools close 217 East 86th Street. Living out in the country schools are widely separated by miles. In NYC because of the population schools would not be to far from where one lived. As far as David's notes, an Excel spreadsheet would be easier to work with. Thanks for the help.

And, walk over to the Old Red Courthouse on Main St. Just east of the court house is the rather strange Kennedy Monument.

Definitely worth the visit. This is a view of the interior. and a view of Houston. This is too steep for shooting for in front of the TSBD. Even though more than 50 witnesses is where they said the president was when they heard shooting. This is the approved view for shooting. Actually, one window west. They have the area of the Sniper's Nest glassed in.

This scene is of today's general area at 825 East 179th Street, NYC. This was an address for Harvey. And, I don't know how useful this information is, but it should give one perspective when reading through information about H & L in NYC in the early 1950s.

Ramaz School. There are two. This is the closest to John Gardos. Another view. The Ramaz School has a Contact Us section on their website. I don't know whether asking them anything about John Gardos would result in them saying anything.

Paul, That would be nice if one could obtain such a yearbook as the one showing Oswald in a classroom in New Orleans. It's a bit strange. Everything seems to be 7 / 10 of a mile from another related address. Is this a good walking distance in NYC?

Jim, This is what the 1445 Sheridan Avenue, Bronx, New York address looks like today. I'm not sure it would have looked like this in 1952. Interestingly enough there appears to be what could be a school just across the street from 1445 Sheridan today. There is a bus there and that doesn't necessarily make it a school. Were these buildings there in 1952-1953? That is 67 years ago. In my experience school buildings don't last that long. That's not to say they can't. There is another school nearby and perhaps a better candidate for a school of the 1950s. Location: 1340 Sheridan Avenue, Bronx, NY 10456( P.S. X088 - S. Silverstein Little Sparrow School If I am looking at this correctly both schools are shown here.

Jim, "I may have missed one or two, but can you say where you got the Riverside Dr. and 88th St. addresses? (BTW, for the first ten years of my life, I lived at 440 Riverside Dr. in Manhattan. Your picture above might be the back of the building at 155 Riverside Dr., but it certainly isn’t the front, which faced the very wide Hudson River and, I think, Riverside Park. It was a nice area of the city.)" That is really interesting. I was at Fort Dix, New Jersey for about a year and early on went to New York whenever possible. I liked the place. For various reasons in advanced training we were not allowed regular clothing so all those trips were made in uniform. I was attacked a couple of times by groups of female hippies. The males just stood back and watched. Those events kind of ruined the idea of going to New York. I did street views with the intention of showing the general area in relation to the Hudson River (west side) and back towards Central Park (east side) All the Google Earth scenes are done that way. It was an effort to relate things to Emil Gardos' address, the address of Mary Fuhrman (John Pic's address), the alleged address of Fred Blair and Emil Gardos at 77th Street and 2nd Avenue. One side of the 155 Riverside address would not form in the street view of Google Earth. So, I did the other side. That's not relevant now. Once again thanks for the correction.

Jim, Thanks for the correction. I have a stack of unrelated notes by the computer. There is a note on Marguerite and Lee and just below that was this address without any other names. If you look at what I wrote I wasn't sure this was the correct address. I should have made sure. I figured someone would correct me if not. It is the address of Robert Oppenheimer. These notes were in association with the atom bomb video and the female Soviet spy. I think I got carried away being able to look at these places on Google Earth and being able map the addresses locations in relation to each other with Google. To make up I will do those locations from Google Earth. You have my email address. If possible could you send me David Joseph's timeline info. More than likely that will keep me out of trouble. Then again maybe not. Septuagenarian Creeping Senility causes you to lose focus from time to time.

So, school records are not public records in New York? Do they have some policy about the public gaining access to school records? I have just looked up KY's current school records law and it seems to be the same as New York. Records are only for the parents of students until 21 years. This is different since I graced the halls of education. In those halcyon days the public had a right to look at any school record. There was a 45 day compulsory requirement for a school board to answer that request. Unless there is some other way to check John Gardos school career this seems to be a dead end.

The information posted here was incorrect and has been deleted. This information was based on a wrong address for the Oswalds. I will try to correct this mistake in later posts.

Paul, The school records for John Gardos would solve this problem. What is need is records from the 1st and 2nd grade from a school in Yorkville such as the Ramaz school or some other. If you could find any other school record that would be important. If you found 3rd and 4th grade records there in Yorkville, then that would pretty much end the research. The Ramaz school is intriguing. Somewhere, Harvey Oswald got the notion he should be an intellectual reading books that people don't normally read. Going to the opera, etc. He could have gotten this mind set from his original parents or from a school. You say the Ramaz school was known for academic excellence. It was close by.

Paul, This is a spectacular piece of research. I'm surprised that some of the old buildings are still left in that area. This is a good view toward Central Park and just across the park the Bronx. There were subways there in the spring of 1963. Since it is less than a mile from central New York, say a Times Square hotel, I wonder if Ozzie took Marina and the child to his old neighborhood and watched a movie at the old theater there just for old times sake. The distance out to the park is not great and the distance down town was not great either. New Yorkers being walkers, bus catchers, cab riders, and subway riders would have found these distances trivial. There are subways there in the 1960s and today. There were Trolleys there in earlier times. Practically, any place on the upper east side was obtainable in a short period of time in those days and today. Here's a Nazi parade at Madison Square Garden in the 1930s. It not an arduous walk from 86th street to watch this parade. Yorkville was called Little Hungary. I suppose it also could be called Little Russia and Little Germany. These were the dominant ethnic groups in the area during the 1930s and 1940s. This area probably had its share of Hungarian communists, Hungarian facists, and Hungarian Jews. There would also have been Russian communists and German fascists all around. I don't know how they would look at the Jewish folk, but in all probability not kindly. It is an ethnic community and Oswald, if he was John Gardos, had the opportunity to learn bits and pieces of a lot of different languages.

Here are the two records I based that on. I should have posted these at the time, but was to lazy to go through the photo posting procedure. and, These are neat. They even have what appears to be phone numbers. As far as when the Gardos communists moved to New York after living in Ironwood, MI is uncertain. It would be sometime between 1940 and 1944.

Karl, As I have said earlier, I don’t know of anyone using facial recognition software on Oswald photos. I’m not sure it would work on photos that have been altered. That would be a real problem for an adequate and accurate analysis. I worked up a little recognition scheme that helps me with the many versions of Lee Harvey Oswald. This scheme is based on the mug shot of the person killed at the Dallas Police Department. I call that person Harvey Oswald. Here are 5 facial traits one can look for in comparisons. With these traits in mind, we can examine other Oswald photos. Here is one I have done before, but with a photo not as sharp as this one. A standard technique for photo alterers was to use a face mask (a cutout from another photo) to disguise a person’s identity. Notice the difference in light in the coloring of the front part of the face as versus the hair area and cheek area. Notice that the part is a different shade and larger than what one sees in the Dallas photo. Notice that the Oswald in this photo does not have an earlobe. Earlobes are human genetic inheritance and are either attached (no earlobes) or unattached (earlobes). There are variations in between. The top rim of the ear lacks Harvey’s characteristic two bends or crooks in the left ear’s upper rim. Refers to the chin. The chin is larger and squarer than the Dallas Photo. Harvey’s wide part in his hair shows a strange balding pattern. We will see something similar in one other photo. And, that’s it. Harvey usually kept this part of his hair pattern covered with a comb over. He was a neat person and did this regularly. Hence, there may be editing here to enhance this area so that one would know this is Harvey. It doesn't work if you pay attention to other features. This photo is of Lee Oswald at Atsugi, Japan. He lacks earlobes and has a broader nose. This version of Lee Oswald from 1958. Oswald is on leave. This matches the hair pattern, but he has earlobes. He has a narrow nose and chin. These photos demonstrate there is more than 2 Oswalds, or photos have been altered. How would a facial recognition program deal with this? One last set of photos for comparison. None of the guys look like Harvey Oswald, the man killed at the Dallas Police Station.

Finding where John Gardos was in period 1945-1949 may determine what assumptions are credible in the assumption that John Gardos might be Harvey Oswald. Let's say if he was Harvey why would his parents give him up to the Oswald Project and the custody of, I would assume, a stranger Marguerite Oswald. They may have been government agents and that is the reason for the long deportation of Emil Gardos. Emil may have been coopted as a confidential informant for the FBI long before the 1940s. In NY during the 1930s there were a lot of disaffected Hungarian communists because of Stalin and what was happening in Russia. They became anti-communists. Emil and Grace could have one of this group. If they were government agents they certainly would not have wanted to take their child to post WWII Hungary. After March 1947 and President Truman's executive order, communists should have seen the writing on the wall. Communists will be persecuted staring now. This may have motivated the Gardos' thinking or the governments thinking of how to get agents into post war Hungary. As far as John Armstrong's account of the early schooling of Harvey and Lee, he knew that in 1947 Harvey starts the 1st grade at the Benbrook school in 1947 and Lee was in the 2nd grade at Covington school until Jan. 1946 and then the Lilly Clayton school in Jan. 1947. That is for the 1946-47 school year. The 1947-1948 school year should have had Lee in the 3rd grade Arlington Elem school. He would be 8 years old that year. John Gardos would also be 8 years old in 1947-1948. But, he was in the 1st grade. The Armstrong account of the early school years of Harvey and Lee is consistent and accurate. I'm almost sure I screwed that up due to the complexity of the record. The point to make here is there could be a 2 year gap between the grades of Harvey and Lee. John Armstrong is aware of that as he mentions it.

I would like to repeat this information from an earlier post. This repeated information ties directly into what time frame the mysterious lady caller in the Tippit call knew the Gardos communists. Emil, Grace, and little John were known to the mysterious lady. She may not of known Fred Blair's name or had forgotten it during the stress of the call so she repeated brother in law several times. And, example of this might be not remembering the name of the actor, Robert Duval, and say something like you know that Lonesome Dove actor who liked to kick a pig. "I have an idea. See if John's good friend can find the school district for the address 217 East 86th Street. Then check that school for John Gardos attendance. HIs parents are Emil and Grace A. during the years 1945 and 1946. John Gardos should be in the 1st and 2nd grade. He should not be there for a 3rd and 4th grade years. If he is then John Gardos is not likely to be Harvey Oswald. Here's the reasoning for that. I'm a retired school teacher. The H & L record for Harvey Oswald at Benbrook school in 1947 was immediately suspicious to me and seemed to lack credibility. Why? John Gardos or Harvey Oswald's age in the fall of 1947 should be 8 years (or 7 years old and close to 8 years in the fall of 1947). This is too old for a 1st grade student. This implies that he was a truant for two years and probably would have been tracked down by a truant officer no matter what state he was in 1945-1946. The admission of school age children into the 1st grade was pretty much standard across the US in the 1940s and 1950s. Overall, it was mandatory and compulsory attendance at 6 years old for the first grade. Generally, there was not a kindergarten or pre-school available. Different states may vary a little on these procedures. Kentucky has always adjusted the laws to match other states as much as possible. In this period for a child to enter into the first grade they must have been 6 years old when school started or would be 6 years old before Jan, 1, of the following year. This has been changed in more recents times to a closer (I've forgotten) date to the fall entry date. I have argued this really doesn't matter since pre-school and Kindergarten is available at an age earlier age then 6 years." I repeated this information so that I wouldn't have to retype it. I believe the time frame that the mysterious caller knew the Gardos was before 1949-1950. The Gardos left for Hungary sometime in 1949-1950. This is according to the Congressional Record that was published in 1950. The Congressional Record reveals that Grace and Emil applied for a visa to visit Hungary in 1949. There is no record in that Congressional Record about 10 year old John Gardos. Anytime after that Emil and Grace would be out of the country. So, the school records for John Gardos is critical for the years 1945-1949. Grace is living at her residence at 217 East 86th Street, Yorkville, NY in 1944 and 1946. If one can find school records for 1945 and 1946 that could say something about Harvey Oswald's school record in 1947 in Texas. As I explain above Harvey Oswald should not have been 8 years old on entering the first grade at the Benbrook school. He should have done the same as Lee entering the first grade in 1945. So, If one can find a school record for John Gardos in NY in 1947-1948 or anytime after that date it should put an end to the John Gardos / Harvey Oswald connection. This has to be the son of Emil and Grace A. and living at 217 East 86th Street and the appropriate school for that address.

Paul, I'm not so sure she would say anything to make the authorities happy. I'll agree she would say anything that the authorities wanted about Oswald with the exception he was connected to the Soviets and did the assassination at their behest. I believe the Soviets would still have a use for her. That is the way I read Marina's actions after the assassination.

Corey Santos has a good point. Does the number of guest count in this total. If so, then put a limit on the number of guests at any one time.

I may be wrong, but I have noticed a decrease in users rather than an increase. Comments on the forum stay longer before heading to the second page. Folks do not immediately respond to a comment as quickly as before. The forum debate has degenerated to a smaller group of users than in prior times. This may be due to stricter standards keeping the haters from expressing their hate. What might be happening is an attack on the Forum because recent posts in several threads are developing what might be new ways to look at the Kennedy assassination. Or, something at Invision is not correct or they have gotten greedy. I like Cory Santos' post below.

Paul, Marina was a nice looking young lady. At that age that would personally sway my opinion of her. However, a more realistic view is available with age. I believe Marina Oswald was a Soviet intelligence agent, a double agent and then a triple agent undergoing a reversal to Soviet allegiance once she was in the US. That's nothing new. A lot of people believe that. I believe her mission was to seduce, marry, and then leave the Soviet Union with Ozzie. The seduction occurred when Marina did not allow Ozzie his sexual intentions. Therefore, he proposed as a rebound from an earlier failed proposal. There was probably committee (there was a group of 20 KGB agents assigned to monitor Ozzie) work done on that decision of withholding sex. Marina was sexually active with other foreigners before meeting Ozzie. Nothing she said or did should be taken as gospel. I believe the timeline of events in Russian show that Marina showed up after Ozzie announces his intent to return to the US. The video I posted on the atom bomb shows the true nature of a female Soviet intelligence agent. Sex and marriage is just one more tool in their intelligence activities.

You are correct. I too am skeptical, but this is a possibility to establish the true identity of Harvey Oswald. There is no evidence to say that the Gardos were not in Ironwood, MI. At the same time there is no evidence that they were there and not in NY. More information is needed to put this subject to bed. You said, "The FBI knew that the connection between our "Oswald" and Emil Gardos (regardless of whether it was biological) was very sensitive.... The FBI knew that the connection between our "Oswald" and Emil Gardos (regardless of whether it was biological) was very sensitive." I believe this is so and if I get the time today I will post some thoughts on that.

Jim, That's very interesting. I, too, have not initially found any references to another John Gardos born in 1939. John Armstrong's friend gives the Census year, 1940, wife, sons, birth dates, residence, and parents. This should be an easily found Census reference. You say you have not been able to duplicate the source after two searches. I haven't found that reference either in the Census Record of 1940 for John's friend's reference. The closest I can get is a Joseph Gardo living at 63rd Drive, Queens, NY. But, he is an Italian. Maybe John's friend can be more forth coming with where he found this information. I have an idea. See if John's good friend can find the school district for the address 217 East 86th Street. Then check that school for John Gardos attendance. HIs parents are Emil and Grace A. during the years 1945 and 1946. John Gardos should be in the 1st and 2nd grade. He should not be there for a 3rd and 4th grade years. If he is then John Gardos is not likely to be Harvey Oswald. Here's the reasoning for that. I'm a retired school teacher. The H & L record for Harvey Oswald at Benbrook school in 1947 was immediately suspicious to me and seemed to lack credibility. Why? John Gardos or Harvey Oswald's age in the fall of 1947 should be 8 years (or 7 years old and close to 8 years in the fall of 1947). This is too old for a 1st grade student. This implies that he was a truant for two years and probably would have been tracked down by a truant officer no matter what state he was in 1945-1946. The admission of school age children into the 1st grade was pretty much standard across the US in the 1940s and 1950s. Overall, it was mandatory and compulsory attendance at 6 years old for the first grade. Generally, there was not a kindergarten or pre-school available. Different states may vary a little on these procedures. Kentucky has always adjusted the laws to match other states as much as possible. In this period for a child to enter into the first grade they must have been 6 years old when school started or would be 6 years old before Jan, 1, of the following year. This has been changed in more recents times to a closer (I've forgotten) date to the fall entry date. I have argued this really doesn't matter since pre-school and Kindergarten is available at an age earlier age then 6 years. Secondly, if possible, check the University of Wisconsin, Madison for the Fred Blair papers. Box Number 5 has correspondence between Fred, Emil, and Grace. I believe this covers the years in question. This might be helpful.