Why Beverley Oliver Is Not The Babushka Lady

[Chris Davidson]

Chris.

Looking at Altgens and Bothun i only see 4 -motorcycles. ?

You are correct Robin.

In the first sequence of the Zapruder film, which is not a fake, 3 motorcyclists are seen going down Elm, including the one who Beverley Oliver wrongly states went straight along Houston and didn't make the turn.

She could only make this assumption after viewing the Zapruder film without the sprocket holes.

Due to the time gap between sequences, the 5 police motorclyclists, only 3 of which can be seen in Zapruder, do not appear in the Zapruder film when limo comes in to view, and 4 cyclists, 2 at either side of the limo can be seen. Simple really.

Duncan

Duncan/Robin,

This is the same line up they were in, turning onto Houston.

They just had to split the 5 into a 3/2 group to make the corner turn.

5 cycle cops , Decker's white car, then the limo with 4 more flanked on each side.

chris

[Pat Speer]

Chris.

Looking at Altgens and Bothun i only see 4 -motorcycles. ?

You are correct Robin.

In the first sequence of the Zapruder film, which is not a fake, 3 motorcyclists are seen going down Elm, including the one who Beverley Oliver wrongly states went straight along Houston and didn't make the turn.

She could only make this assumption after viewing the Zapruder film without the sprocket holes.

Due to the time gap between sequences, the 5 police motorclyclists, only 3 of which can be seen in Zapruder, do not appear in the Zapruder film when limo comes in to view, and 4 cyclists, 2 at either side of the limo can be seen. Simple really.

Duncan

Duncan/Robin,

This is the same line up they were in, turning onto Houston.

They just had to split the 5 into a 3/2 group to make the corner turn.

5 cycle cops , Decker's white car, then the limo with 4 more flanked on each side.

chris

Chris, you are pointing out the lead group in front of Chief Curry's car. I don't remember all the names but two of these are Stavis Ellis and William Lumpkin. Oliver is almost certainly talking about the four riders by the limousine, Martin and Hargis on the left of the limo, and Chaney and Jackson on the right.

Over the years many researchers have questioned what happened to Jackson, as he seems to disappear in the Z-film. But Duncan is right in that he can be seen in the sprocket hole footage. He is also seen in Nix.

IF Oliver is claiming Jackson went straight then she is undoubtedly repeating something she heard from someone else, and not reporting something she actually witnessed. My argument is that, even if this is true, she still could be the babushka lady, as many of the witnesses came to incorporate things they either read or heard from others into their eyewitness accounts. (E.G. Jean Hill, Howard Brennan, S.M. Holland).

[Todd W. Vaughan]

Chris.

Looking at Altgens and Bothun i only see 4 -motorcycles. ?

You are correct Robin.

In the first sequence of the Zapruder film, which is not a fake, 3 motorcyclists are seen going down Elm, including the one who Beverley Oliver wrongly states went straight along Houston and didn't make the turn.

She could only make this assumption after viewing the Zapruder film without the sprocket holes.

Due to the time gap between sequences, the 5 police motorclyclists, only 3 of which can be seen in Zapruder, do not appear in the Zapruder film when limo comes in to view, and 4 cyclists, 2 at either side of the limo can be seen. Simple really.

Duncan

Duncan/Robin,

This is the same line up they were in, turning onto Houston.

They just had to split the 5 into a 3/2 group to make the corner turn.

5 cycle cops , Decker's white car, then the limo with 4 more flanked on each side.

chris

All,

Understanding the progression of the motorcycles through Dealey Plaza is crucial in fully understanding the sequence and timing of the Dealey Plaza photographic evidence. So far no one here has gotten this correct.

The motorcade started out with 3 motorcycles leading the motorcade, called the Advance group

That group was followed by 5 motorcycles, called the Lead group.

That group was followed by the 4 motorcycles that were flanking the limousine.

The DPD traffic control plan called for 2 of the 5 Lead motorcycles to break away from the Lead group at Main and Houston and join the Advance group. The (now) 5 motorcycle Advance group was then to ride ahead to Stemmons freeway and block off the 5 lanes of northbound traffic so that when the motorcade arrived the freeway would be clear. In the Muchmore film we can see the 3 Advance cycles turning followed by the 2 cycles that had left the Lead group. In Moorman 3 we can see the 2 cycles from either the Advance or the Lead group (I'll have to check.

This left 3 motorcycles in the Lead group (Ellis, Grey, and Lumpkin). These are the 3 we see turning from Houston onto Elm in Weaver 1 and in the beginning of the Zapruder film, and these are 3 we later see on the west side of the underpass in the Bell film and in McIntire 1.*

Todd

* One or more of these 3 motorcylces should have appeared in Moorman 4, which is missing (Moorman gave it to Lumpkin, who lost it.)

Edited June 14, 2010 by Todd W. Vaughan

[Chris Davidson]

Chris.

Looking at Altgens and Bothun i only see 4 -motorcycles. ?

You are correct Robin.

In the first sequence of the Zapruder film, which is not a fake, 3 motorcyclists are seen going down Elm, including the one who Beverley Oliver wrongly states went straight along Houston and didn't make the turn.

She could only make this assumption after viewing the Zapruder film without the sprocket holes.

Due to the time gap between sequences, the 5 police motorclyclists, only 3 of which can be seen in Zapruder, do not appear in the Zapruder film when limo comes in to view, and 4 cyclists, 2 at either side of the limo can be seen. Simple really.

Duncan

Duncan/Robin,

This is the same line up they were in, turning onto Houston.

They just had to split the 5 into a 3/2 group to make the corner turn.

5 cycle cops , Decker's white car, then the limo with 4 more flanked on each side.

chris

All,

Understanding the progression of the motorcycles through Dealey Plaza is crucial in fully understanding the sequence and timing of the Dealey Plaza photographic evidence. So far no one here has gotten this correct.

The motorcade started out with 3 motorcycles leading the motorcade, called the Advance group

That group was followed by 5 motorcycles, called the Lead group.

That group was followed by the 4 motorcycles that were flanking the limousine.

The DPD traffic control plan called for 2 of the 5 Lead motorcycles to break away from the Lead group at Main and Houston and join the Advance group. The (now) 5 motorcycle Advance group was then to ride ahead to Stemmons freeway and block off the 5 lanes of northbound traffic so that when the motorcade arrived the freeway would be clear. In the Muchmore film we can see the 3 Advance cycles turning followed by the 2 cycles that had left the Lead group. In Moorman 3 we can see the 2 cycles from either the Advance or the Lead group (I'll have to check.

This left 3 motorcycles in the Lead group (Ellis, Grey, and Lumpkin). These are the 3 we see turning from Houston onto Elm in Weaver 1 and in the beginning of the Zapruder film, and these are 3 we later see on the west side of the underpass in the Bell film and in McIntire 1.*

Todd

* One or more of these 3 motorcylces should have appeared in Moorman 4, which is missing (Moorman gave it to Lumpkin, who lost it.)

Todd,

Thanks for the formation description.

If this is correct, then Oliver's description of 3 cycles turning onto Elm, depend on her vantage point at the time.

From where she stood in Bronson, if that is her (as Robin pointed out), What can be seen looking toward the Elm St turn with spectators in the way?

She is standing on the ground. Bell's position would be close but he's elevated.

Is it possible she could lose sight of the outside cycle at some point, and believe it stayed on Houston?

chris

Edited June 14, 2010 by Chris Davidson

[Jack White]

Beverly did NOT come forward. She had made mistakes when younger. She was trying to

put her past behind her. She "got religion" and married evangelist Charles Massagee.

Rev. Massagee and she travelled around holding "revivals" in Texas churches. For economy

reasons, the traveling pastor and wife were often hosted in church member homes

instead of motels. Charles preached, Beverly sang. Revivals usually lasted several

days.

While holding a revival in a church in Cleburne Texas, Charles and Beverly were

hosted by architect and church member J. Gary Shaw. In his hallway, Gary had

a bookcase full of JFK books. At the dinner table during the meal, Beverly commented

on the books, and to her surprise found that Gary was a leading researcher of the

JFK murder. She had NO IDEA her host was a JFK expert.

Very matter-of-factly, Beverly commented, "Oh, you know, I was there that day.

I don't talk about it, but I saw the president die." She did NOT "come forward"; she

made an offhand comment during dinner...by accident to a person who KNEW.

Gary was astonished that chance had brought an unknown witness to his house. He

asked where she was in the plaza. She described a point about a third of the way

down Elm by the south curb. Gary knew the photos by memory. He became excited.

The ONLY woman in the photos where his dinner guest described was the unidentified

woman in a headscarf called the Babushka Lady. Chance had brought her forward to

his house.

Without showing her photos or descriptions, the next day he drove the Massagees

to Dealey Plaza. He asked her to go stand where she had been. She went to the

exact spot of the Babushka Lady.

When Gary informed her of the significance of her story, she wished to remain

anonymous. Only because Gary confided the story to his cohort Penn Jones did

her story become known. Penn hinted in several stories in his newspaper that

the Babushka Lady had been found. Only later when Beverly donated one of

her kidneys to her ailing daughter did her identity become known.

The uninformed say that Beverly "came forward". She became known only by

chance, and then wanted to avoid any publicity lest it interfere with her

religious work. She was afraid that her shady past, use of drugs, night

club singer, and association with underworld figures would ruin the revival

crusade of the Massagees. At first, she was not happy that Penn had named

her. Later, she began to see the good that her admission had done in the

search for truth, and ever since has devoted herself to doing whatever she

can to find who killed JFK.

Beverly Oliver Massagee IS the Babushka Lady.

Jack

Jack,

Thanks for your info about Beverly Oliver.

Is this the story Gary Shaw told you?

Todd

Yes...this is the story told by Gary Shaw and also repeated by Penn Jones and Beverly (from their own perspectives).

Jack

[Jack White]

THIS IS FAR FRM THE FIRST TIME SHE HAS BEEN ATTACKED AND THE IMPLICATION OF xxxx HAS BEEN MADE, BUT BEVERLY WILL NOT BE READING THIS THREAD NOR ANY OTHER, SHE BACKED OFF THE FORUMS YEARS AGO, BECAUSE OF SUCH TREATMENT,AS OTHERS ALSO DID, AND WHO COULD BLAME THEM, SHE HAS STATED IN THE PAST THAT SHE HAS TOLD HER EXPERIENCE AND THAT'S THAT MORE OR LESS, SOME WILL BELIEVE AND THOSE THAT DO NOT, WILL NEVER NO MATTER WHAT IS ARGUED, BUT IMO, I DOUBT PERHAPS THOUGH I PERSONALLY DO NOT KNOW OF ANY FILM STUDIES SHE HAS DONE,POSITIVELY OR AND THAT BEVERLY EVER KNEW WHAT A SPROCKET HOLE WAS,OR IS, AND YES THROUGH THE YEARS MANY RESEARCHERS HAVE MADE THE SAME MISTAKE ABOUT THE OUTSIDE MOTORCYCLE,OFFICER AND THERE ARE THOSE OUT THERE RELATIVELY NEW THAT STILL ARE...I THOUGHT THE THROWING OUT OF THE BABY WAS HOPEFULLY DONE WITH, AND YES I AGREE, TOO MANY OF THE WITNESSES ARE AND HAVE BEEN PUT DOWN ON THIS FORUM, TOO OFTEN, SOME PERHAPS APPEAR TO GET GREAT GLEE FROM DOING SO, PERHAPS BECAUSE THEN WHAT THEY THINK MIGHT HAVE SOME VERIFICATION IN THEIR MINDS, FOR THEIR PERSONAL THEORY, THEY LIMIT THEMSELVES AND THAT IS REALLY THE EXTENT OF THEIR RESEARCH STUDIES. .BTW SHE STILL HAS THE SHOES WITH THE YELLOW PAINT ON THEM FROM THE CURB THAT DAY THAT WAS FRESHLY DONE, BUT PLESE DO NOT LET ME STOP YOU ARGUING, CARRY ON DUNCAN AND ALL BY ALL MEANS..WHY ARE SO MANY BOUND BENT AND DETERMINED TO ONLY SHOW THE NEGATIVE AND NOT THE POSITIVE WITHIN THE RESEARCH, WHO IS TO BE NEXT ON THE LIST ?? .B

Bernice,

What's wrong with pointing out a blatant discrepancy between the real evidence of the motorcycle cop's movements as seen in the Zapruder film, and the blatantly wrong description given by Beverly Oliver to Vince Palamara on video?

I don't believe that she is genuine, but i'm not stopping anyone from believing that she is genuine.

Duncan

Nothing wrong Duncan if you have the proof of what you have stated,about the information she has expressed, did you contact her and ask if she knows what a sprocket hole is in a film , let alone if has she ever done any of the film studies, and therefore be aware of such, ??For all any of us know, the motorcycle officer may have been pointed out to her, by palamara or, but unless you have asked, and given her the opportunity to clarify..yet you have accused her that you have ''pointing out a blatant discrepancy between the real evidence of the motorcycle cop's movements as seen in the Zapruder film, and the blatantly wrong description given by Beverly Oliver to Vince Palamara on video?''

The whole world has not studied the films let alone the crappy zappy to that extent, nor seriously, to some it is not that important...they have seen it and that has been enough...b

Bernice,

Why would I want to contact her? I have already posted the video showing the evidence of her giving a verbally false version of the events.

She said that "The one on the right went straight down Houston" and that only three of the four motorcycled were left to go down Elm.

The Zapruder film, crappy or not, shows that this is clearly untrue, and that her recollection could only have come from a viewing of the Zapruder film without the sprocket holes.

Duncan

Duncan,

Originally, there are 5 that turn onto Houston St.

A set of three, and a set of two.

You would need to account for these 5, from Houston onto to Elm, before you state Oliver is giving false accusations.

You could alternately conclude that her statement includes a description of 5 total cycles, such as:

1 down Houston + (3 of 4) left to go down Elm.

It all depends on her vantage point.

chris

http://98.155.2.196:8400/E0CC4/2.flv

Beverly was filming the president's car, not the motorcycles. She was looking at the president, not the motorcycles.

Beverly was the Babushka Lady. Other observations and speculations are irrelevant.

Jack

Jack,

She was filming the limo, but before that occurs, she knows about the existance of 5 motorcycles approaching Elm from Houston, and describes their actions. (Muchmore film)

This is very relevant.

Once again, the actions of the motorcycles caught her attention, enough for her to describe their whereabouts.

This is important because it's not something we see on any films or photos. What happened to 2 of the 5 cycles between Houston and Elm?

She is also accurate in describing 3 motorcycles actually coming down Elm St.

I believe it lays a good foundation for what she experienced that day.

chris

Thanks, Chris. I was not aware of this. Is it in her book?

Jack

[Robin Unger]

3-lead motorcycles.

Bothun 1

[William Kelly]

Beverly did NOT come forward. She had made mistakes when younger. She was trying to

put her past behind her. She "got religion" and married evangelist Charles Massagee.

Rev. Massagee and she travelled around holding "revivals" in Texas churches. For economy

reasons, the traveling pastor and wife were often hosted in church member homes

instead of motels. Charles preached, Beverly sang. Revivals usually lasted several

days.

While holding a revival in a church in Cleburne Texas, Charles and Beverly were

hosted by architect and church member J. Gary Shaw. In his hallway, Gary had

a bookcase full of JFK books. At the dinner table during the meal, Beverly commented

on the books, and to her surprise found that Gary was a leading researcher of the

JFK murder. She had NO IDEA her host was a JFK expert.

Very matter-of-factly, Beverly commented, "Oh, you know, I was there that day.

I don't talk about it, but I saw the president die." She did NOT "come forward"; she

made an offhand comment during dinner...by accident to a person who KNEW.

Gary was astonished that chance had brought an unknown witness to his house. He

asked where she was in the plaza. She described a point about a third of the way

down Elm by the south curb. Gary knew the photos by memory. He became excited.

The ONLY woman in the photos where his dinner guest described was the unidentified

woman in a headscarf called the Babushka Lady. Chance had brought her forward to

his house.

Without showing her photos or descriptions, the next day he drove the Massagees

to Dealey Plaza. He asked her to go stand where she had been. She went to the

exact spot of the Babushka Lady.

When Gary informed her of the significance of her story, she wished to remain

anonymous. Only because Gary confided the story to his cohort Penn Jones did

her story become known. Penn hinted in several stories in his newspaper that

the Babushka Lady had been found. Only later when Beverly donated one of

her kidneys to her ailing daughter did her identity become known.

The uninformed say that Beverly "came forward". She became known only by

chance, and then wanted to avoid any publicity lest it interfere with her

religious work. She was afraid that her shady past, use of drugs, night

club singer, and association with underworld figures would ruin the revival

crusade of the Massagees. At first, she was not happy that Penn had named

her. Later, she began to see the good that her admission had done in the

search for truth, and ever since has devoted herself to doing whatever she

can to find who killed JFK.

Beverly Oliver Massagee IS the Babushka Lady.

Jack

Jack,

I've watched interviews with Beverly Oliver and she certainly seems genuine to me. On the other hand, appearances can be decieving. I've done no research into her story at all so please correct me if I'm wrong but didn't she claim to have filmed the motorcade with a camera that wasn't available in 1963?

Cheers!

Martin

Beverly filmed with a camera loaned to her by boyfriend Larry Ronco. She was not a camera expert, but a teen girl.

Anything said in later years was a result of later research and information furnished by others. As I recall, her initial

claims to Gary Shaw did not involve the make, year or model of the camera. Others determined that later I think.

Jack

Of course Larry Ronco could confirm or refute most if not all of Beverly Oliver's story, and Gary Mack says that Ronco returned to Kodat at Rochester, NY in 1964, and is apparently still living.

BK

[Todd W. Vaughan]

Beverly did NOT come forward. She had made mistakes when younger. She was trying to

put her past behind her. She "got religion" and married evangelist Charles Massagee.

Rev. Massagee and she travelled around holding "revivals" in Texas churches. For economy

reasons, the traveling pastor and wife were often hosted in church member homes

instead of motels. Charles preached, Beverly sang. Revivals usually lasted several

days.

While holding a revival in a church in Cleburne Texas, Charles and Beverly were

hosted by architect and church member J. Gary Shaw. In his hallway, Gary had

a bookcase full of JFK books. At the dinner table during the meal, Beverly commented

on the books, and to her surprise found that Gary was a leading researcher of the

JFK murder. She had NO IDEA her host was a JFK expert.

Very matter-of-factly, Beverly commented, "Oh, you know, I was there that day.

I don't talk about it, but I saw the president die." She did NOT "come forward"; she

made an offhand comment during dinner...by accident to a person who KNEW.

Gary was astonished that chance had brought an unknown witness to his house. He

asked where she was in the plaza. She described a point about a third of the way

down Elm by the south curb. Gary knew the photos by memory. He became excited.

The ONLY woman in the photos where his dinner guest described was the unidentified

woman in a headscarf called the Babushka Lady. Chance had brought her forward to

his house.

Without showing her photos or descriptions, the next day he drove the Massagees

to Dealey Plaza. He asked her to go stand where she had been. She went to the

exact spot of the Babushka Lady.

When Gary informed her of the significance of her story, she wished to remain

anonymous. Only because Gary confided the story to his cohort Penn Jones did

her story become known. Penn hinted in several stories in his newspaper that

the Babushka Lady had been found. Only later when Beverly donated one of

her kidneys to her ailing daughter did her identity become known.

The uninformed say that Beverly "came forward". She became known only by

chance, and then wanted to avoid any publicity lest it interfere with her

religious work. She was afraid that her shady past, use of drugs, night

club singer, and association with underworld figures would ruin the revival

crusade of the Massagees. At first, she was not happy that Penn had named

her. Later, she began to see the good that her admission had done in the

search for truth, and ever since has devoted herself to doing whatever she

can to find who killed JFK.

Beverly Oliver Massagee IS the Babushka Lady.

Jack

Jack,

Thanks for your info about Beverly Oliver.

Is this the story Gary Shaw told you?

Todd

Yes...this is the story told by Gary Shaw and also repeated by Penn Jones and Beverly (from their own perspectives).

Jack

So, just so I am clear, Shaw (and Jones and Oliver) said she first told her story at Shaw's house and they went to Dealey Plaza the next day?

[Jack White]

Beverly did NOT come forward. She had made mistakes when younger. She was trying to

put her past behind her. She "got religion" and married evangelist Charles Massagee.

Rev. Massagee and she travelled around holding "revivals" in Texas churches. For economy

reasons, the traveling pastor and wife were often hosted in church member homes

instead of motels. Charles preached, Beverly sang. Revivals usually lasted several

days.

While holding a revival in a church in Cleburne Texas, Charles and Beverly were

hosted by architect and church member J. Gary Shaw. In his hallway, Gary had

a bookcase full of JFK books. At the dinner table during the meal, Beverly commented

on the books, and to her surprise found that Gary was a leading researcher of the

JFK murder. She had NO IDEA her host was a JFK expert.

Very matter-of-factly, Beverly commented, "Oh, you know, I was there that day.

I don't talk about it, but I saw the president die." She did NOT "come forward"; she

made an offhand comment during dinner...by accident to a person who KNEW.

Gary was astonished that chance had brought an unknown witness to his house. He

asked where she was in the plaza. She described a point about a third of the way

down Elm by the south curb. Gary knew the photos by memory. He became excited.

The ONLY woman in the photos where his dinner guest described was the unidentified

woman in a headscarf called the Babushka Lady. Chance had brought her forward to

his house.

Without showing her photos or descriptions, the next day he drove the Massagees

to Dealey Plaza. He asked her to go stand where she had been. She went to the

exact spot of the Babushka Lady.

When Gary informed her of the significance of her story, she wished to remain

anonymous. Only because Gary confided the story to his cohort Penn Jones did

her story become known. Penn hinted in several stories in his newspaper that

the Babushka Lady had been found. Only later when Beverly donated one of

her kidneys to her ailing daughter did her identity become known.

The uninformed say that Beverly "came forward". She became known only by

chance, and then wanted to avoid any publicity lest it interfere with her

religious work. She was afraid that her shady past, use of drugs, night

club singer, and association with underworld figures would ruin the revival

crusade of the Massagees. At first, she was not happy that Penn had named

her. Later, she began to see the good that her admission had done in the

search for truth, and ever since has devoted herself to doing whatever she

can to find who killed JFK.

Beverly Oliver Massagee IS the Babushka Lady.

Jack

Jack,

Thanks for your info about Beverly Oliver.

Is this the story Gary Shaw told you?

Todd

Yes...this is the story told by Gary Shaw and also repeated by Penn Jones and Beverly (from their own perspectives).

Jack

So, just so I am clear, Shaw (and Jones and Oliver) said she first told her story at Shaw's house and they went to Dealey Plaza the next day?

It was nearly 30 years ago; I am not certain it was "the next day". It may have been a few days later. Everything else is accurate.

The "next day" may have been Sunday; the revival was in progress.

Jack

[William Kelly]

Beverly did NOT come forward. She had made mistakes when younger. She was trying to

put her past behind her. She "got religion" and married evangelist Charles Massagee.

Rev. Massagee and she travelled around holding "revivals" in Texas churches. For economy

reasons, the traveling pastor and wife were often hosted in church member homes

instead of motels. Charles preached, Beverly sang. Revivals usually lasted several

days.

While holding a revival in a church in Cleburne Texas, Charles and Beverly were

hosted by architect and church member J. Gary Shaw. In his hallway, Gary had

a bookcase full of JFK books. At the dinner table during the meal, Beverly commented

on the books, and to her surprise found that Gary was a leading researcher of the

JFK murder. She had NO IDEA her host was a JFK expert.

Very matter-of-factly, Beverly commented, "Oh, you know, I was there that day.

I don't talk about it, but I saw the president die." She did NOT "come forward"; she

made an offhand comment during dinner...by accident to a person who KNEW.

Gary was astonished that chance had brought an unknown witness to his house. He

asked where she was in the plaza. She described a point about a third of the way

down Elm by the south curb. Gary knew the photos by memory. He became excited.

The ONLY woman in the photos where his dinner guest described was the unidentified

woman in a headscarf called the Babushka Lady. Chance had brought her forward to

his house.

Without showing her photos or descriptions, the next day he drove the Massagees

to Dealey Plaza. He asked her to go stand where she had been. She went to the

exact spot of the Babushka Lady.

When Gary informed her of the significance of her story, she wished to remain

anonymous. Only because Gary confided the story to his cohort Penn Jones did

her story become known. Penn hinted in several stories in his newspaper that

the Babushka Lady had been found. Only later when Beverly donated one of

her kidneys to her ailing daughter did her identity become known.

The uninformed say that Beverly "came forward". She became known only by

chance, and then wanted to avoid any publicity lest it interfere with her

religious work. She was afraid that her shady past, use of drugs, night

club singer, and association with underworld figures would ruin the revival

crusade of the Massagees. At first, she was not happy that Penn had named

her. Later, she began to see the good that her admission had done in the

search for truth, and ever since has devoted herself to doing whatever she

can to find who killed JFK.

Beverly Oliver Massagee IS the Babushka Lady.

Jack

Jack,

Thanks for your info about Beverly Oliver.

Is this the story Gary Shaw told you?

Todd

Yes...this is the story told by Gary Shaw and also repeated by Penn Jones and Beverly (from their own perspectives).

Jack

So, just so I am clear, Shaw (and Jones and Oliver) said she first told her story at Shaw's house and they went to Dealey Plaza the next day?

It was nearly 30 years ago; I am not certain it was "the next day". It may have been a few days later. Everything else is accurate.

The "next day" may have been Sunday; the revival was in progress.

Jack

I think Beverly is at a revival at the moment (Hallalouya!) but the articles written about her by Shaw and Jones should answer most questions. When they first met, did Gary ask her what she was wearing?

Gary Shaw probably has the highest rating of any researcher on the planet, and if he's convinced Beverly is the Babuska, then that's a Big endorsement.

As with most of the Babes of Dealey Plaza, they really don't know what it is that they know that's important, or its signifiance.

I think Larry Ronco is the key to Beverly's story, and once you get to him most of the other questions will be answered.

BK

[Jack White]

Beverly did NOT come forward. She had made mistakes when younger. She was trying to

put her past behind her. She "got religion" and married evangelist Charles Massagee.

Rev. Massagee and she travelled around holding "revivals" in Texas churches. For economy

reasons, the traveling pastor and wife were often hosted in church member homes

instead of motels. Charles preached, Beverly sang. Revivals usually lasted several

days.

While holding a revival in a church in Cleburne Texas, Charles and Beverly were

hosted by architect and church member J. Gary Shaw. In his hallway, Gary had

a bookcase full of JFK books. At the dinner table during the meal, Beverly commented

on the books, and to her surprise found that Gary was a leading researcher of the

JFK murder. She had NO IDEA her host was a JFK expert.

Very matter-of-factly, Beverly commented, "Oh, you know, I was there that day.

I don't talk about it, but I saw the president die." She did NOT "come forward"; she

made an offhand comment during dinner...by accident to a person who KNEW.

Gary was astonished that chance had brought an unknown witness to his house. He

asked where she was in the plaza. She described a point about a third of the way

down Elm by the south curb. Gary knew the photos by memory. He became excited.

The ONLY woman in the photos where his dinner guest described was the unidentified

woman in a headscarf called the Babushka Lady. Chance had brought her forward to

his house.

Without showing her photos or descriptions, the next day he drove the Massagees

to Dealey Plaza. He asked her to go stand where she had been. She went to the

exact spot of the Babushka Lady.

When Gary informed her of the significance of her story, she wished to remain

anonymous. Only because Gary confided the story to his cohort Penn Jones did

her story become known. Penn hinted in several stories in his newspaper that

the Babushka Lady had been found. Only later when Beverly donated one of

her kidneys to her ailing daughter did her identity become known.

The uninformed say that Beverly "came forward". She became known only by

chance, and then wanted to avoid any publicity lest it interfere with her

religious work. She was afraid that her shady past, use of drugs, night

club singer, and association with underworld figures would ruin the revival

crusade of the Massagees. At first, she was not happy that Penn had named

her. Later, she began to see the good that her admission had done in the

search for truth, and ever since has devoted herself to doing whatever she

can to find who killed JFK.

Beverly Oliver Massagee IS the Babushka Lady.

Jack

Jack,

Thanks for your info about Beverly Oliver.

Is this the story Gary Shaw told you?

Todd

Yes...this is the story told by Gary Shaw and also repeated by Penn Jones and Beverly (from their own perspectives).

Jack

So, just so I am clear, Shaw (and Jones and Oliver) said she first told her story at Shaw's house and they went to Dealey Plaza the next day?

It was nearly 30 years ago; I am not certain it was "the next day". It may have been a few days later. Everything else is accurate.

The "next day" may have been Sunday; the revival was in progress.

Jack

I think Beverly is at a revival at the moment (Hallalouya!) but the articles written about her by Shaw and Jones should answer most questions. When they first met, did Gary ask her what she was wearing?

Gary Shaw probably has the highest rating of any researcher on the planet, and if he's convinced Beverly is the Babuska, then that's a Big endorsement.

As with most of the Babes of Dealey Plaza, they really don't know what it is that they know that's important, or its signifiance.

I think Larry Ronco is the key to Beverly's story, and once you get to him most of the other questions will be answered.

BK

Bill...I have told all I know, which was told to me by Gary Shaw about 30 years ago. If I had known more, I would have told it.

Ronco is a mysterious character. Eastman Kodak seems to have a nest of CIA vipers; did they include Ronco?

Jack

(Bev and Ronco, left)

[Todd W. Vaughan]

Beverly did NOT come forward. She had made mistakes when younger. She was trying to

put her past behind her. She "got religion" and married evangelist Charles Massagee.

Rev. Massagee and she travelled around holding "revivals" in Texas churches. For economy

reasons, the traveling pastor and wife were often hosted in church member homes

instead of motels. Charles preached, Beverly sang. Revivals usually lasted several

days.

While holding a revival in a church in Cleburne Texas, Charles and Beverly were

hosted by architect and church member J. Gary Shaw. In his hallway, Gary had

a bookcase full of JFK books. At the dinner table during the meal, Beverly commented

on the books, and to her surprise found that Gary was a leading researcher of the

JFK murder. She had NO IDEA her host was a JFK expert.

Very matter-of-factly, Beverly commented, "Oh, you know, I was there that day.

I don't talk about it, but I saw the president die." She did NOT "come forward"; she

made an offhand comment during dinner...by accident to a person who KNEW.

Gary was astonished that chance had brought an unknown witness to his house. He

asked where she was in the plaza. She described a point about a third of the way

down Elm by the south curb. Gary knew the photos by memory. He became excited.

The ONLY woman in the photos where his dinner guest described was the unidentified

woman in a headscarf called the Babushka Lady. Chance had brought her forward to

his house.

Without showing her photos or descriptions, the next day he drove the Massagees

to Dealey Plaza. He asked her to go stand where she had been. She went to the

exact spot of the Babushka Lady.

When Gary informed her of the significance of her story, she wished to remain

anonymous. Only because Gary confided the story to his cohort Penn Jones did

her story become known. Penn hinted in several stories in his newspaper that

the Babushka Lady had been found. Only later when Beverly donated one of

her kidneys to her ailing daughter did her identity become known.

The uninformed say that Beverly "came forward". She became known only by

chance, and then wanted to avoid any publicity lest it interfere with her

religious work. She was afraid that her shady past, use of drugs, night

club singer, and association with underworld figures would ruin the revival

crusade of the Massagees. At first, she was not happy that Penn had named

her. Later, she began to see the good that her admission had done in the

search for truth, and ever since has devoted herself to doing whatever she

can to find who killed JFK.

Beverly Oliver Massagee IS the Babushka Lady.

Jack

Jack,

Thanks for your info about Beverly Oliver.

Is this the story Gary Shaw told you?

Todd

Yes...this is the story told by Gary Shaw and also repeated by Penn Jones and Beverly (from their own perspectives).

Jack

So, just so I am clear, Shaw (and Jones and Oliver) said she first told her story at Shaw's house and they went to Dealey Plaza the next day?

It was nearly 30 years ago; I am not certain it was "the next day". It may have been a few days later. Everything else is accurate.

The "next day" may have been Sunday; the revival was in progress.

Jack

Do you know if Richard Sprague went with them to Dealey Plaza? Thanks.

[Dean Hagerman]

One or more of these 3 motorcylces should have appeared in Moorman 4, which is missing (Moorman gave it to Lumpkin, who lost it.)

This is one missing photo I would love to see

[Kevan Tolley]

In regards to Beverly Oliver, she was interviewed by a Canadian radio station last year, who also interviewed James Tague and Robert McClelland for their show on the JFK assassination. This is probably old news but interesting for those who haven't heard their accounts before. Night Fright Show Scroll down to the applicable file.