Why Beverley Oliver Is Not The Babushka Lady

[Chris Newton]

Tommy,

Check this photo, the "camera bag" almost seems to be like a wicker bag of some sort.

http://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/displayimage.php?pid=12471&fullsize=1

[Thomas Graves]

Tommy,

Check this photo, the "camera bag" almost seems to be like a wicker bag of some sort.

http://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/displayimage.php?pid=12471&fullsize=1

Thanks Chris.

That's what she says in this long video (don't remember exactly at what minute; must watch again). She also says something about having that purse (or maybe a second one?) under her coat, which made he look fat in the 11/22/63 photos. Like I said, I gotta watch it again. Wish it wasn't so darn long. PS See my earlier post about her being fooled by that guy in Finland into believing that she had filmed what was actually filmed by Orville Nix, and confusing the Z-film for the Nix film at one point, etc.

-- Tommy

Edited September 15, 2016 by Thomas Graves

[Chris Newton]

In the photo I posted above (post #76) I notice the bag has a wide, adjustable shoulder strap pad. This would indicate that the bag was intended as "shoulder" bag and not just a purse that had been worn diagonally across the right shoulder.

Maybe this is a similar design:

https://www.etsy.com/listing/98079077/vintage-wicker-handbagcrossbodyfishing

[Thomas Graves]

Tommy,

Check this photo, the "camera bag" almost seems to be like a wicker bag of some sort.

http://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/displayimage.php?pid=12471&fullsize=1

Chris,

Thanks for the blowup. Nice catch regarding the adjustable pad on the strap.

I don't know if anyone has ever noticed this, but she's holding a squarish-looking camera in her left hand. I wonder if that's the experimental Yashika 8 mm camera (not "super 8") Beverly Oliver claims Larry Ronco gave her?

-- Tommy

Edited September 15, 2016 by Thomas Graves

[Sandy Larsen]

I don't know whether [beverly Oliver is] the Babuska Lady or not, but the B-Lady certainly looks like she is filming the assassination.

Whether or not she is the Babuska Lady, Beverly Oliver certainly knew Jack Ruby, she worked at the Colony Club, she knew a guy named Larry Ronco who worked for Kodak and at the Texas State Fair and she was with Jack Ruby and Larry Meyers when they had dinner at the Egyptian Lounge on the night before the assassination, contrary to the Warren Report that says Ruby was with Ralph Paul.

I don't know what it is, but there seems to be a spate of attacks on witnesses on this forum and wonder why these witnesses are so threatening and if this is contageous?

BK

bumped

What I've highlighted in red above is the impression I've gotten since becoming a member of the forum. So far, every time I've asked another member why they believe a particular witness is a phony, I've receive IMO lame reasons..

Nevertheless I'm glad there are those on the forum who look for and share reasons not to believe a witness. They save me a lot of time and effort in doing so myself.

Sandy,

Happy to oblige.

BTW, what do you think of my previous post (# 73)?

Tommy,

I don't know who Mikkonen of Finland is or exactly what he did. But I'm only mildly surprised that a person could get things confused, like Zapruder for Nix. I've known people like that. Some people refer to them as "air heads" or "scatter brained." My mother was a bit of one. At the same time she was a very talented self-taught artist. She taught herself many skills.

So I agree with you on your assessment of Beverly Oliver. Based on what little I know.

EDIT: Her clothes sure don't look like those of a seventeen year old.

Edited September 15, 2016 by Sandy Larsen

[David Josephs]

Chris.

Looking at Altgens and Bothun i only see 4 -motorcycles. ?

Altgens 2 Large

Bothun 2

Robin,

Take a look at the Muchmore video I posted.

5 cycles come around the Main/ Houston St. corner.

The first set is 3, the second set is 2.

What happens to 2 of the 5 from Houston onto Elm.

I don't know. I know of no footage that shows it.

When she says one kept going straight down Houston, how do we know she is talking about 1 of 3 in the front pack(seen on Z) and not 1 of 2 from the trailing pack?

If we can't account for all 5 cycles on Houston, how can her description of this segment be considered true or false. We need more proof.

This is all that I'm referring to.

chris

The Oliver video does not play any longer... yet the discussion of motorcycles got me wondering.

the Lawrence Exhibits outline the motorcade. Testimony from Brewer, one of the 5 in front of the lead car and NOT part of the 3 motorcycles which followed the Advance Cars.

He says he turned onto Houston and then Elm and down to the Advance Bikes leaving the three we see in McIntyre and in frame 20 of the Zfilm.

Sadly I don't know exactly what Beverly said about the motorcycles yet that fact that 2 of the bikes jumped ahead to catch the Advance Cars and deal with Stemmons could confuse anyone.

There is nothing from Freeman that I have found so far... not even an entry in the radio logs... Need to find out a bit more about Freeman...

DJ

Mr. BELIN. Let me try and get a sketch. Officer, I just stepped out of the room to come back in and bring a map of Dallas, which I believe is similar to Commission's Exhibit 371, which I am going to mark here Deposition Exhibit A, which we will call It E.D. Brewer deposition Exhibit A. I have it marked in red pencil here, and on this map of Dallas, on one side of it in one corner of it is a section called, Downtown Dallas, and this Is towards the top of the reverse side of the map.

I am going to ask you to look at this map. You see the place here, it looks like Dealey Plaza, Main Street runs into that, which is Houston, then you turned north on Houston and Elm, and then you take Elm?

Mr. BREWER. Left on Elm.

Mr. BELIN. Left on Elm. You went under the railroad underpass there, which appears to be in green on the map, is that correct?

Mr. BREWER. Yea, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Then I am going to ask you to take a pencil or a ball point pen, and you might just follow the route that you took. Just mark it parallel to whatever street you took to where you ended up.

Mr. BREWER. (Marks on map.)

Down Elm under the railroad tracks to Stemmons, under Stemmons to the right, headed north parallel to Stemmons on that entranceway, under that T & p Railroad, and onto Stemmons Expressway, and Just north of the T & P Railroad.

Mr. BELIN. Now is that where you stopped your motorcycle?

Mr. BREWER. Yes, sir.

[Thomas Graves]

Tommy,

Check this photo, the "camera bag" almost seems to be like a wicker bag of some sort.

http://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/displayimage.php?pid=12471&fullsize=1

Chris,

Thanks for the blowup. Nice catch regarding the adjustable pad on the strap.

I don't know if anyone has ever noticed this, but she's holding a squarish-looking camera in her left hand. I wonder if that's the experimental Yashika 8 mm movie camera (not "super 8") Beverly Oliver claims Larry Ronco gave her?

http://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/displayimage.php?pid=12471&fullsize=1

-- Tommy

Also note the light-colored mark on the heel of her left shoe. That might be some of the fresh yellow curb paint she says (in the video) that she got on her shoes on 11/22/63...

-- Tommy

Edited September 15, 2016 by Thomas Graves

[Thomas Graves]

Tommy,

Check this photo, the "camera bag" almost seems to be like a wicker bag of some sort.

http://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/displayimage.php?pid=12471&fullsize=1

Chris,

Thanks for the blowup. Nice catch regarding the adjustable pad on the strap.

I don't know if anyone has ever noticed this, but she's holding a squarish-looking camera in her left hand. I wonder if that's the experimental / prototype Yashika 8mm movie camera (not "super 8") Beverly Oliver claims Larry Ronco gave her?

http://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/displayimage.php?pid=12471&fullsize=1

-- Tommy

Also note the light-colored mark on the heel of her left shoe. That might be some of the fresh yellow curb paint she says (in the video) that she got on her shoes on 11/22/63...

-- Tommy

Is this youngish-looking woman the same as the camera-holding woman, above? (I believe that she is.) Edit: I've been corrected by Mike Walton. This woman was photographed on Houston (near Main; that's "Gerry Patrick Hemming" behind her) as the limo passed by, so she couldn't possibly be Babushka lady. My bad.

And is that youngish-looking woman the same as this oldish-looking woman crossing the street? Really?

Looks like a different coat style to me. No sunglasses. No purse strap. Older looking woman. Wearing her scarf(?) differently. Etc.

Edited September 17, 2016 by Thomas Graves

[Joe Bauer]

I've never studied the Dealey Plaza Babushka lady story much but these postings and their info and especially their photographs have pulled me in.

Whoever this woman was, she was certainly right there close to the moment of head shot impact upon JFK.

Just for that reason alone her observation story would be important.

Because she was taking a photo or film and she was that close, you would think the investigative authorities that day would want to speak to her.

Yet, there is no evidence she was ever identified and questioned outside of Oliver's tale?

The older looking lady running up the grassy knoll to me is not the Babushka lady. Unless maybe her face was super-imposed onto that big coat wearing body?

And that older angular face just doesn't seem to fit on a woman with thicker ankles as the pictured BL has.

The photo of the much younger and full, roundish face woman does resemble Oliver to a point ( and her dark hair does look weird like it could be a wig ) but her nose and lips don't match up to my sense of similarity to Oliver.

There is a photo that when enlarged shows a different, box like single shot camera in the hands of the Babushka lady other than a moving film one.

Someone mentioned that that big coat the BL wore didn't seem like the kind a 17 year old would wear. But, who knows what someone would find and put on, maybe what's handy even it isn't teen stylish?

I wonder what Beverly Oliver's ankles looked like at 17. Were they larger than most women? Was she always big boned?

Is Beverly Oliver lying about it all? Hard to tell. The story that she didn't come out on her own looking for press attention but was kind of outed by a friend after sharing with him that it was her in that BL photo just adds to the question of truth and reality.

But, even if Oliver isn't the BL, I have always found the commentaries and stories of the young Dallas strippers who worked for and or knew Jack Ruby as Oliver did a truly interesting part of the whole JFK/Oswald/Ruby 11,22-24,1963 history.

Their characters and lives ( interesting how and why they all got into stripping - usually abused as girls from poor families and desperate for money - and most were just above teen years and were as innocent and vulnerable and taken advantage of in that vice industry.

Several of these girls wanted to tell more of what they had seen and heard around Jack Ruby, but were terrified to do so. Yet, a few did despite the danger.

That took courage.

Little Lynn seemed traumatized. The girl was still just a teenager when she got pulled into that strip joint world.

Like so many of Ruby's girls she was very poor and even had to ask Jack Ruby to wire her $25 bucks ( which he did just before he shot Oswald ) just to buy groceries for a few days.

Dallas in 1963 was like so many other larger American cities. Full of vice which centered around vulnerable young women coming from poverty stricken families and poor small towns. I remember San Francisco back in the fifties and sixties. More vice joints than Dallas ever had. Stripper Carol Doda was the face of that town in her hey-day.

Prostitution was huge and tolerated in the city most of that time.

Strip joints were where you went to connect to that type of business.

The Ruby and his Carousel Club perfectly reflected that part of American big city life. And all centered around poor and usually uneducated girls and young women like Little Lynn.

Beverly Oliver seemed stronger than most the way she came out of that world and has had a good and seemingly healthier life in her middle and older age years.

Excuse my off-point rambling.

Reading about Beverly Oliver just brought out thoughts I have pondered about her and her sister strippers and their lives and parts in this tragic yet fascinating historical event.

[Chris Newton]

Because she was taking a photo or film and she was that close, you would think the investigative authorities that day would want to speak to her.

Yet, there is no evidence she was ever identified and questioned outside of Oliver's tale?

Joe, just as important, if not moreso, is the photo(s) she could have taken which has/(have) never been accounted for.

[Thomas Graves]

I don't know whether [beverly Oliver is] the Babuska Lady or not, but the B-Lady certainly looks like she is filming the assassination.

Whether or not she is the Babuska Lady, Beverly Oliver certainly knew Jack Ruby, she worked at the Colony Club, she knew a guy named Larry Ronco who worked for Kodak and at the Texas State Fair and she was with Jack Ruby and Larry Meyers when they had dinner at the Egyptian Lounge on the night before the assassination, contrary to the Warren Report that says Ruby was with Ralph Paul.

I don't know what it is, but there seems to be a spate of attacks on witnesses on this forum and wonder why these witnesses are so threatening and if this is contageous?

BK

bumped

What I've highlighted in red above is the impression I've gotten since becoming a member of the forum. So far, every time I've asked another member why they believe a particular witness is a phony, I've receive IMO lame reasons..

Nevertheless I'm glad there are those on the forum who look for and share reasons not to believe a witness. They save me a lot of time and effort in doing so myself.

Sandy,

Happy to oblige.

BTW, what do you think of my previous post (# 73)?

Tommy,

I don't know who Mikkonen of Finland is or exactly what he did. But I'm only mildly surprised that a person could get things confused, like Zapruder for Nix. I've known people like that. Some people refer to them as "air heads" or "scatter brained." My mother was a bit of one. At the same time she was a very talented self-taught artist. She taught herself many skills.

So I agree with you on your assessment of Beverly Oliver. Based on what little I know.

EDIT: Her clothes sure don't look like those of a seventeen year old.

Sandy,

It's too bad this 2013 video of her is so gosh darn long. No one here seems to be willing to watch it.

As a tasty "hors d' oeuveres," I suggest that y'all watch it from 05:04 to 08:25. I mean, 3 minutes and 21 seconds isn't too much to ask, is it? Hopefully it will "whet your appetite" and make you want to consume "the whole enchilada."

-- Tommy

Edited September 16, 2016 by Thomas Graves

[Sandy Larsen]

Sandy,

It's too bad this 2013 video of her is so gosh darn long. No one here seems to be willing to watch it.

As a tasty "hors d' oeuveres," I suggest that y'all watch it from 05:04 to 08:25. I mean, 3 minutes and 21 seconds isn't too much to ask, is it? Hopefully it will "whet your appetite" and make you want to consume "the whole enchilada."

-- Tommy

Thanks Tommy,

I watched about twenty minutes of it. Fascinating. I believe her.

Edited September 16, 2016 by Sandy Larsen

[Joe Bauer]

I just watched the entire video.

The woman could hold an audience ( including me ) with her high energy, church revival experience, still attractive, big busty blond haired brassy/folksy Texas charm way.

I loved her singing of Amazing Grace even without musical accompaniment.

Sarah Palin has nothing on Beverly Oliver.

Ms. Oliver could have been the biggest female star ever on national Christian television if she had been placed there at a younger age.

One strong woman.

Back to the serious business of Beverly Oliver's presentation/message;

I sense she is telling the truth as she feels and knows it most of the time. She speculates a lot.

She seems to know enough of the most commonly reported facts unearthed by some of the most well known JFK researchers and writers which she uses to frame and keep the context of her own story from wandering too far into total disbelief.

She brings up some story subjects which I have also felt strong suspicion about such as Roscoe White, Regis Kennedy, etc.

I am feeling somewhat more believing of Oliver being the Babushka lady after reading all the postings in this thread.

[Thomas Graves]

Sandy,

It's too bad this 2013 video of her is so gosh darn long. No one here seems to be willing to watch it.

As a tasty "hors d' oeuveres," I suggest that y'all watch it from 05:04 to 08:25. I mean, 3 minutes and 21 seconds isn't too much to ask, is it? Hopefully it will "whet your appetite" and make you want to consume "the whole enchilada."

[deleted by T. Graves to make this post less cluttered-looking; you can find the video in post # 87, this thread]

-- Tommy

http://www.theirregular.com/news/2003-01-08/Obituaries/910505.html

Bingo!

http://www.theirregular.com/news/2003-01-08/Obituaries/910505.html

Thanks Tommy,

I watched about twenty minutes of it. Fascinating. I believe her.

Beverly Oliver says her "prototype Yashica 8mm movie camera" (which I can't find on the Internet; AFAIK Yashica didn't market any 8mm movie cameras that weren't super 8) was given to her in 1963 her by her then-boyfriend, Larry Ronco, "who was working at the Kodak exhibit at Six Flags over Texas." Oliver has said that Ronco killed himself after the assassination.

I've just found this press photo of a Larry Ronco working for Eastman Kodak Company back in the day. I don't know when the photo was taken. He's holding a Kodak "Retina Reflex" camera (first made in 1957), but I'm not sure which model.

https://www.google.com/search?q=%22larry+ronco%22+eastman&rlz=1C1AVNE_enUS702US702&espv=2&biw=1280&bih=667&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjRreX32ZTPAhULHGMKHd96Bc0Q_AUIBygC#imgrc=EpMDZcdeigJdqM%3A

Here's "Larry Ronco" and Beverly Oliver.

-- Tommy

If he's Beverly's "Larry Ronco," he didn't kill himself after all.

Lawrence T. Ronco

1935-2003 -- He was a starting player on the Phillips High School 1953 Maine State Basketball Champs

CONCORD, N.H. -- Lawrence "Larry" Taylor Ronco, 67, passed away on Jan. 1, 2003, in New Hampshire, following a brief illness.He was born in Farmington, on Aug. 22, 1935, the son of Warren B. and Ella (Taylor) Ronco. He attended Phillips schools where his mother taught for many years, graduating from Phillips High School in 1953 as valedictorian of his class.Among many extra-curricular activities, he was a starting player on the 1953 Maine State Basketball Champions, Phillips High School, a distinction he carried proudly throughout his life. He went on to graduate from the University of Maine in Orono in 1957.After college, he served as a Lieutenant in the United States Army for two years, primarily at Fort Carson, Colo. Upon discharge from the Army, he became an employee of Eastman-Kodak Co. and later was self-employed with a national sales line that included jewelry and ladies accessories. He traveled extensively, finally settling in Nashua, N.H., after marrying Deborah Baker of Massachusetts in 1975.In addition to his wife, survivors include his sons, Scott and his wife Anne of North Reading, Mass., Ryan and his wife Molly of Roseville, Calif., Derek of Nashua, N.H.; and six grandchildren.A funeral was held Saturday, Jan. 4, 2003 at Phillips Methodist Church with Rev. Norman Boulay officiating.Interment will be in the spring at the Lower Cemetery in Eustis.Donations may be made to the organization of one's choice.

http://www.theirregular.com/news/2003-01-08/Obituaries/910505.html

Edited September 16, 2016 by Thomas Graves

[Thomas Graves]

Another little mistake of Beverly's that I've caught is that although she has many times said that both of the men who took her film on 11/25/63 were FBI, she was tape recorded by the HSCA's investigators as saying that one of them was FBI ("Regis Kennedy") and the other one was (unnamed man) CIA.

PS Looks like Babuska Lady's talking to the woman next to her in this photo. I wonder if that woman would remember her?

-- Tommy

Edited September 16, 2016 by Thomas Graves