Why Beverley Oliver Is Not The Babushka Lady

[Michael Walton]

Is this youngish-looking woman the same as the camera-holding woman, above? (I believe that she is.)

Tom,

You can't be serious. The sunglasses woman was up the street before Kennedy turned onto Elm. And if you think she's the same person, why isn't she holding the camera up filming the President when he's mere feet away from her? After all, isn't that why she was there...to film him and see him?

The other stockier woman that's been colorized looks much more like the woman seen across the street filming the shooting.

I mean, you're all over the place with this thread. Not to be overly critical, but someone recently said you should be respected as a serious researcher. But if you can't determine even basic differences between photos, I really question that.

[Thomas Graves]

Is this youngish-looking woman the same as the camera-holding woman, above? (I believe that she is.)

Tom,

You can't be serious. The sunglasses woman was up the street before Kennedy turned onto Elm. And if you think she's the same person, why isn't she holding the camera up filming the President when he's mere feet away from her? After all, isn't that why she was there...to film him and see him?

The other stockier woman that's been colorized looks much more like the woman seen across the street filming the shooting.

I mean, you're all over the place with this thread. Not to be overly critical, but someone recently said you should be respected as a serious researcher. But if you can't determine even basic differences between photos, I really question that.

Dear Mike,

You're right. I was wrong. My bad. I remember her now, up there on Houston Street by "Gerry Patrick Hemming." My bad. I'm sorry.

It's interesting that you didn't say, "I think you made a mistake, Tommy. That photo was taken up on Houston about a minute earlier," or words to that effect. But noooooo, you had to throw in a "I don't want to be overly critical, but ....." insult, instead. I can see that you and I are going to get along just fine, Mike. (lol)

By the way, have you caught any other mistakes I've made? There must be millions of them.

I'm probably "all wet" about Larry Ronco's not killing himself, and about Babushka Lady's having a purse strap going across her back, right? (Does that oldish-looking woman walking towards the grassy knoll have a purse strap going across her chest? Maybe she does; it's hard to tell.) Oh yeah, and the fact that Beverly Oliver said in her tape recorded HSCA interview that one of the two guys who took her film was CIA? Yes, I know. These three things probably don't qualify as "original research," but they are new to me, and I thought I'd share them with y'all. Hope that's okay with you, Mike.

BTW, how is my forgetting that that photo was taken up on Houston Street while the limo was passing by the same as "not being able to determine the difference between photos" ? Do you not see the similarities in that woman's clothing and Babushka Lady's?

Thanks for not being "overly-critical" of my silly mistake, Mike. (lol) I will try to improve. Hopefully, I will eventually become a "serious researcher" who it truly worthy of your highly sought-after respect.

In the meantime, I hope it's okay for me to be just a "serious student" and to "think out loud" on this forum. Meaning what? Meaning I reserve the right to be able to "change my mind" and / or to present "contradictory / devil's advocate arguments" (i.e., for me to appear to be "all over the place") even mid-thread, if necessary.

Would that "bug" you too much, Mike? Are you the kind of "serious researcher" who prefers to "stick to his guns, come hell or high water" and insists that others do that, too?

I am truly sorry about choosing the obviously-wrong photo of Babushka Lady. That was a stupid mistake and I'll be the first one to admit it.

-- Tommy

Edited September 17, 2016 by Thomas Graves

[Kirk Gallaway]

I don't know whether [beverly Oliver is] the Babuska Lady or not, but the B-Lady certainly looks like she is filming the assassination.

Whether or not she is the Babuska Lady, Beverly Oliver certainly knew Jack Ruby, she worked at the Colony Club, she knew a guy named Larry Ronco who worked for Kodak and at the Texas State Fair and she was with Jack Ruby and Larry Meyers when they had dinner at the Egyptian Lounge on the night before the assassination, contrary to the Warren Report that says Ruby was with Ralph Paul.

I don't know what it is, but there seems to be a spate of attacks on witnesses on this forum and wonder why these witnesses are so threatening and if this is contageous?

BK

bumped

What I've highlighted in red above is the impression I've gotten since becoming a member of the forum. So far, every time I've asked another member why they believe a particular witness is a phony, I've receive IMO lame reasons..

Nevertheless I'm glad there are those on the forum who look for and share reasons not to believe a witness. They save me a lot of time and effort in doing so myself.

Hmm, I don't know Sandy, but in the case of Gordon Arnold, where he admits to being part of a computer simulated photo that once showed just one figure (badge man) and now shows three with the assassin and an accomplice only a few feet behind Arnold and firing by his ear to corroborate his story, and we both agree the photo is bogus, (let others think what they will.) I'm not sure what reasoning would qualify as greater than 'lame' for you. But having said that, maybe it's the rebellion against that gullibility that you profess, that leads you to delve and use some of those unique sleuthing skills you possess.

Thomas, when you recommended to watch that short excerpt from Beverly Oliver, I was expecting more photo evidence of who the Bubushka lady was. Instead the highlight is really her in front of an audience hunkering down and saying "That's me, I'm the Bubushka Lady", and that is relevant for our subjective judgments, she does sound convincing.

On the other hand, Yes, I've always thought Bubushka Lady dresses more like a woman approaching middle age then a sexy 17 year old, wanting to get the attention of her President. She does make a reference in mwkk that Jada who worked at the Carousel (Oliver didn't)had seen Ruby and LHO together, but Jada had denied she had seen them together when asked by newsmen after the assassination.

But what if she was the Bubushka lady? What new evidence did she provide that no one else in that proximity didn't? To me the most noteworthy part of her story is the confiscation of the film she alleges taking. Isn't it?

[Thomas Graves]

I don't know whether [beverly Oliver is] the Babuska Lady or not, but the B-Lady certainly looks like she is filming the assassination.

Whether or not she is the Babuska Lady, Beverly Oliver certainly knew Jack Ruby, she worked at the Colony Club, she knew a guy named Larry Ronco who worked for Kodak and at the Texas State Fair and she was with Jack Ruby and Larry Meyers when they had dinner at the Egyptian Lounge on the night before the assassination, contrary to the Warren Report that says Ruby was with Ralph Paul.

I don't know what it is, but there seems to be a spate of attacks on witnesses on this forum and wonder why these witnesses are so threatening and if this is contageous?

BK

bumped

What I've highlighted in red above is the impression I've gotten since becoming a member of the forum. So far, every time I've asked another member why they believe a particular witness is a phony, I've receive IMO lame reasons..

Nevertheless I'm glad there are those on the forum who look for and share reasons not to believe a witness. They save me a lot of time and effort in doing so myself.

Hmm, I don't know Sandy, but in the case of Gordon Arnold, where he admits to being part of a computer simulated photo that once showed just one figure (badge man) and now shows three with the assassin and an accomplice only a few feet behind Arnold and firing by his ear to corroborate his story, and we both agree the photo is bogus, (let others think what they will.) I'm not sure what reasoning would qualify as greater than 'lame' for you. But having said that, maybe it's the rebellion against that gullibility that you profess, that leads you to delve and use some of those unique sleuthing skills you possess.

Thomas, when you recommended to watch that short excerpt from Beverly Oliver, I was expecting more photo evidence of who the Bubushka lady was. Instead the highlight is really her in front of an audience hunkering down and saying "That's me, I'm the Bubushka Lady", and that is relevant for our subjective judgments, she does sound convincing.

On the other hand, Yes, I've always thought Bubushka Lady dresses more like a woman approaching middle age then a sexy 17 year old, wanting to get the attention of her President. She does make a reference in mwkk that Jada who worked at the Carousel (Oliver didn't)had seen Ruby and LHO together, but Jada had denied she had seen them together when asked by newsmen after the assassination.

But what if she was the Bubushka lady? What new evidence did she provide that no one else in that proximity didn't? To me the most noteworthy part of her story is the confiscation of the film she alleges taking. Isn't it?

Dear Kirk,

Did watching that 3 minute and twenty-one second long section whet your appetite to watch more, maybe even the whole thing? Maybe some of the photo evidence you're looking for is in it yet. (What were you hoping for exactly? A full frontal view?) Look at it this way, maybe you'll hear her say something you can prove to be false!

During that short section, did you notice that black wig she claimed to have worn that day? What do you think of her description of the shots? ("bang-bang ....bang .......................................boom-boom!")

Etc.

-- Tommy

PS What makes you think she would have wanted to "dress sexy" on that cool, windy day to "get the attention of her president"?

PPS Didn't you catch the part where she says that, although she was a singer at the Colony Club, she would often visit (between sets) the next door Carousel Club, and occasionally work there as a "hostess," too? (Or did I just read that somewhere or hear it in her approx. 25-minute long HSCA interview [q.v.] on youtube?)

Edited September 17, 2016 by Thomas Graves

[Sandy Larsen]

I don't know whether [beverly Oliver is] the Babuska Lady or not, but the B-Lady certainly looks like she is filming the assassination.

Whether or not she is the Babuska Lady, Beverly Oliver certainly knew Jack Ruby, she worked at the Colony Club, she knew a guy named Larry Ronco who worked for Kodak and at the Texas State Fair and she was with Jack Ruby and Larry Meyers when they had dinner at the Egyptian Lounge on the night before the assassination, contrary to the Warren Report that says Ruby was with Ralph Paul.

I don't know what it is, but there seems to be a spate of attacks on witnesses on this forum and wonder why these witnesses are so threatening and if this is contageous?

BK

bumped

What I've highlighted in red above is the impression I've gotten since becoming a member of the forum. So far, every time I've asked another member why they believe a particular witness is a phony, I've receive IMO lame reasons..

Nevertheless I'm glad there are those on the forum who look for and share reasons not to believe a witness. They save me a lot of time and effort in doing so myself.

Hmm, I don't know Sandy, but in the case of Gordon Arnold, where he admits to being part of a computer simulated photo that once showed just one figure (badge man) and now shows three with the assassin and an accomplice only a few feet behind Arnold and firing by his ear to corroborate his story, and we both agree the photo is bogus, (let others think what they will.) I'm not sure what reasoning would qualify as greater than 'lame' for you.

Did you not understand my possible explanation for that, Kirk? I thought it was quite reasonable.

Regardless, you are free to think any way you want. As am I.

But having said that, maybe it's the rebellion against that gullibility that you profess, that leads you to delve and use some of those unique sleuthing skills you possess.

Thomas, when you recommended to watch that short excerpt from Beverly Oliver, I was expecting more photo evidence of who the Bubushka lady was. Instead the highlight is really her in front of an audience hunkering down and saying "That's me, I'm the Bubushka Lady", and that is relevant for our subjective judgments, she does sound convincing.

On the other hand, Yes, I've always thought Bubushka Lady dresses more like a woman approaching middle age then a sexy 17 year old, wanting to get the attention of her President.

She does make a reference in mwkk that Jada who worked at the Carousel (Oliver didn't)had seen Ruby and LHO together,....

Are you sure about that, Kirk? I ask because in the video Tommy posted, Oliver says that Ruby introduced Oswald to her at the club. Ruby told her that Oswald was with the CIA. That occurs shortly after the 18 minute mark in the video.

....but Jada had denied she had seen them together when asked by newsmen after the assassination.

But what if she was the Bubushka lady? What new evidence did she provide that no one else in that proximity didn't? To me the most noteworthy part of her story is the confiscation of the film she alleges taking. Isn't it?

[Joe Bauer]

Oliver's description of the Dealey Plaza gun shot sounds and sequence did catch my attention.

Multiple shots ( almost on top of each other ? ) ...bang,bang,bang...then BOOM!

And when a member of Oliver's audience spoke in the question and answer part of the presentation, she repeated the same scenario Oliver described.

This gun shot hearing woman wasn't in Dealey Plaza but apparently close by and she also said that she thought she heard multiple shots with the last fatal head shot of JFK was a lot louder - bang, bang, bang,...BOOM!

I wonder how many other persons that day in Dealey Plaza ( and/or close by ) that could hear the DP shots, thought the last shot was much louder and more powerful sounding than the other earlier shots?

[Chris Newton]

I wonder how many other persons that day in Dealey Plaza ( and/or close by ) that could hear the DP shots, thought the last shot was much louder and more powerful sounding than the other earlier shots?

Most ground combat vets know that different weapons make different noises and at the very least they would know the sound of their enemies' most common arms. The import of this skill is obvious - being able to tell if that small arms fire coming from "over there" is "ours" or "theirs". Most of the combat veteran witnesses testimonies were ignored because they failed to identify the "correct" source of shots (the TSBD) or the number of shots fired. FWIW

[Sandy Larsen]

Oliver's description of the Dealey Plaza gun shot sounds and sequence did catch my attention.

Multiple shots ( almost on top of each other ? ) ...bang,bang,bang...then BOOM!

And when a member of Oliver's audience spoke in the question and answer part of the presentation, she repeated the same scenario Oliver described.

This gun shot hearing woman wasn't in Dealey Plaza but apparently close by and she also said that she thought she heard multiple shots with the last fatal head shot of JFK was a lot louder - bang, bang, bang,...BOOM!

I wonder how many other persons that day in Dealey Plaza ( and/or close by ) that could hear the DP shots, thought the last shot was much louder and more powerful sounding than the other earlier shots?

Robert Prudhomme has postulated on the possibility that silencers were used. With silencers in place, what you hear are tiny sonic booms as the bullets pass by, and reflections of the booms off of structures up ahead. The sonic booms sound like cracks of a whip.

The final shot may have come from a gun without a silencer. That would explain the much louder sound.

Why would only one shooter not use a silencer? Perhaps he was added to the list of shooters at the last minute, as a backup. That is how James Files described his role.

[Chris Newton]

Robert Prudhomme has postulated on the possibility that silencers were used. With silencers in place, what you hear are tiny sonic booms as the bullets pass by, and reflections of the booms off of structures up ahead. The sonic booms sound like cracks of a whip.

Sandy,

You would not hear a sonic boom if the weapon was subsonic.

I visited this issue and settled on a weapon that was already in CIA inventory at the time of the Assassination in this EF thread from 2006:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=7934

Edited September 17, 2016 by Chris Newton

[Thomas Graves]

Oliver's description of the Dealey Plaza gun shot sounds and sequence did catch my attention.

Multiple shots ( almost on top of each other ? ) ...bang,bang,bang...then BOOM!

And when a member of Oliver's audience spoke in the question and answer part of the presentation, she repeated the same scenario Oliver described.

This gun shot hearing woman wasn't in Dealey Plaza but apparently close by and she also said that she thought she heard multiple shots with the last fatal head shot of JFK was a lot louder - bang, bang, bang,...BOOM!

I wonder how many other persons that day in Dealey Plaza ( and/or close by ) that could hear the DP shots, thought the last shot was much louder and more powerful sounding than the other earlier shots?

Dear Joe,

Actually, she says "bang-bang .....bang ..........................................boom-boom!," indicating five shots from at least two different guns.

I'm thinking that none of them could have been echoes because the third one didn't have one.

-- Tommy

Edited September 17, 2016 by Thomas Graves

[Chris Newton]

I can count at least five six potential "misses"

- concrete abutment near James Tague

- curb that was removed

- manhole cover

- furrow in the lawn opposite the knoll

- reported strike on street

-windshield chrome near limo visor

Edited September 17, 2016 by Chris Newton

[Thomas Graves]

[...]

I mean, you're all over the place with this thread. Not to be overly critical, but someone [Douglas Caddy] recently said you should be respected as a serious researcher. But if you can't determine even basic differences between photos, I really question that.

[emphasis added by T. Graves]

Dear Mike,

You're right. I was wrong. My bad. I remember her now, up there on Houston Street by "Gerry Patrick Hemming." My bad. I'm sorry.

It's interesting that you didn't say, "I think you made a mistake, Tommy. That photo was taken up on Houston about a minute earlier," or words to that effect. But noooooo, you had to throw in a "I don't want to be overly critical, but ....." insult, instead (even though it is against EF rules to impugne the general research abilities of another member). I can see that you and I are going to get along just fine, Mike. (lol)

By the way, have you caught any other mistakes I've made? There must be millions of them.

I'm probably "all wet" about Larry Ronco's not killing himself, and about Babushka Lady's having a purse strap going across her back, right? (Does that oldish-looking woman walking towards the grassy knoll have a purse strap going across her chest? Maybe she does; it's hard to tell.) Oh yeah, and the fact that Beverly Oliver said in her tape recorded HSCA interview that one of the two guys who took her film was CIA? Yes, I know. These three things probably don't qualify as "original research," but they are new to me, and I thought I'd share them with y'all. Hope that's okay with you, Mike.

BTW, how is my forgetting that that photo was taken up on Houston Street while the limo was passing by the same as "not being able to determine the difference between photos" ? Do you not see the similarities in that woman's clothing and Babushka Lady's?

Thanks for not being "overly-critical" of my silly mistake, Mike. (lol) I will try to improve. Hopefully, I will eventually become a "serious researcher" who it truly worthy of your highly sought-after respect.

In the meantime, I hope it's okay for me to be just a "serious student" and to "think out loud" on this forum. Meaning what? Meaning I reserve the right to be able to "change my mind" and / or to present "contradictory / devil's advocate arguments" (i.e., for me to appear to be "all over the place") even mid-thread, if necessary.

Would that "bug" you too much, Mike? Are you the kind of "serious researcher" who prefers to "stick to his guns, come hell or high water" and insists that others do that, too?

I am truly sorry about choosing the obviously-wrong photo of Babushka Lady. That was a stupid mistake and I'll be the first one to admit it.

-- Tommy

Bumped for Mike Walton, with an addendum:

Douglas Caddy accused me of being a "serious researcher"? The nerve! Do try to get your facts straight, Mike, especially when you're talking about me. This is what Mr. Caddy really said about me (in post # 25 on the Judyth and Wim thread on 9/11/14):

Michael, with all due respect, Thomas Graves over the years has provided an incredible amount of information and knowledge about Kennedy's assassination in his over 5000 posts in our forum. He is neither naïve nor gullible. You, he and I, along with the other members of the forum, are trying our best to construct the definitive account of what happened in 1963 in Dallas and in the orchestrated cover-up that followed. Each of us has something to contribute in this endeavor. We are doing this because JFK's assassination was a major turning point in American and world history and affects everyone to this day.

So, Mike, where the heck does Mr. Caddy accuse me of being a "serious researcher"? He's much too smart to say such an obviously-wrong thing as that. LOL

Edited September 18, 2016 by Thomas Graves

[Sandy Larsen]

Robert Prudhomme has postulated on the possibility that silencers were used. With silencers in place, what you hear are tiny sonic booms as the bullets pass by, and reflections of the booms off of structures up ahead. The sonic booms sound like cracks of a whip.

Sandy,

You would not hear a sonic boom if the weapon was subsonic.

True. But why are you telling me this? Are you saying that subsonic weapons were used, and therefore the the quieter bangs before the loud boom could not have been sonic booms and reflections of sonic booms?

I visited this issue and settled on a weapon that was already in CIA inventory at the time of the Assassination in this EF thread from 2006:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=7934

You "settled on a weapon?" You mean you know what weapon was used?

Edited September 18, 2016 by Sandy Larsen

[Chris Newton]

You "settled on a weapon?" You mean you know what weapon was used?

Sandy,

I was speculating about what kind of weapon would be a good knoll weapon and absolutely, "I settled". Are you trying to form an argument over my use of grammar? Go for it.

[Thomas Graves]

You "settled on a weapon?" You mean you know what weapon was used?

Sandy,

I was speculating about what kind of weapon would be a good knoll weapon and absolutely, "I settled". Are you trying to form an argument over my use of grammar? Go for it.

Chris,

Are you confessing to having participated in the assassination? (lol)

-- Tommy