In Film Posted at NARA, Moorman Says She Was "in the street"

[David Lifton]

In a CBS film currently posted at the NARA website, Mary Moorman is interviewed and says that she had stepped into the street to take her famous polaroid.

The link: http://www.archive.org/details/gov.archives.arc.50248

The time: at 30 minutes.

The bottom line: In this 1964 filmed interview, an account broadcast on the evening that the Warren Report was published, Mary Moorman says she “stepped out into the street” to take her Polaroid photo, and that she stood there, focusing her camera for “quite a few seconds, since I wanted to be sure that they were looking at me.”

“. . .stepp[ing] out into the street. . “ and “focusing” the camera for “quite a few seconds” is seriously inconsistent with the known parameters of the Zapruder film.

This 1964 filmed interview—currently being shown at the NARA website—is completely consistent with the detailed report I made immediately after spending an hour or more speaking with Moorman on November 29, 1971 in Dallas.

FURTHER DISCUSSION:

The question of whether the President’s limo stopped during the shooting has been debated. If the car stopped, then the Zapruder film (among others) has been altered.

A related question is whether Moorman stepped out into the street to take her picture. If she did, the notion that the film alteration simply amounted to “editing out” a car stop can be discarded. Because if Mary Moorman stepped out into the street, a far more elaborate alteration took place. The technology existed to do this type of editing/fabrication. The question is: was it used?

THE CAR STOP:

For many years, I have believed that the car stopped momentarily, during the shooting, because in November, 1971, I interviewed witnesses who said that it did.

In November, 1971, I went to Dallas (along with a friend, Bill Corrigan) specifically to interview witnesses who were standing close to the car, and to see what they would say about a car stop. I interviewed Mary Moorman—and several other witnesses—who said the President’s car stopped during the shooting. These witnesses were Bill and Gayle Newman, John Chism, Jack Franzen and Mary Moorman. With one exception, these interviews were taped.

Moorman’s husband, at the time, was forceful in his insistence that I not record the interview. But I made notes at the time, and immediately afterwards, wrote an interview report for the file.

Here’s what Moorman told me that night, re the speed of the President’s limo—all phrased in the context of how she wanted to get the best picture possible of the President.

QUOTING FROM MY INTERVIEW REPORT:

It was moving “very very slowly.” So slowly that she could frame the President in her viewfinder. “It was almost as if he was posing.”

I believe she said that the car stopped momentarily. But she emphasized the fact that she (or Jean [Hill]) yelled out, “Hey look here” or some such thing.

That’s when JFK looked over, and she (Moorman) was able to frame him in view finder as if he were posing.

That’s how slow it was moving.

Bill Corrigan: She thought it might stop and he was going to pose; that was the impression Moorman [had] It stopped momentarily (to let the agent [Clint Hill] on); and this stop [i.e. that stop] was after the head shot. UNQUOTE

TONIGHT'S DISCOVERY (6/29/11):

Tonight, I was looking for something at the National Archives website, and noticed that they have posted there the CBS network broadcast from the night the Warren Report was released in September, 1964. Walter Cronkite (and Dan Rather) narrate; and many of the interviews (all apparently, circa 1964) are done by Eddie Barker.

It soon became evident that Mary Moorman was going to appear on this program, and so I set up a recorder to accurately record what she said.

Moorman doesn’t address the issue of whether the car stopped, but what she DOES say addresses something that is equally important: whether she was standing on the grass, when she took the picture, or whether she stepped out into the street.

If Mary Moorman stepped out into the street to take the picture, then any Zapruder film alteration was much more elaborate, than many have supposed.

WHAT MOORMAN SAYS IN THIS FILMED INTERVIEW: “I stepped out into the street.”

Here’s what Mary Moorman says, on camera, at 30 minutes into the CBS film, now being shown at the U.S. National Archives website:

30:05 “I stepped out into the street; So, I took the camera and aimed it [and] focused it.

And stood there and looked through it [for] quite a few seconds, since I wanted to be sure that they were looking at me.

And uh, I followed it, for, oh, so many seconds, and then I did take the picture. (30:27)

I’m not making this post to start a debate as to whether the car stopped. Personally, I am sure that it did, because I interviewed the witnesses in November, 1971, who were right there. They did not know what the Zapruder film showed, because this was many years before the film became available.

I’m making this post to point out something that is, in a way, a far more serious question: whether Moorman was –or was not—standing in the street.

In this interview, filmed by Eddie Barker in 1964—some 47 years ago—Moorman plainly states exactly that: that she was standing in the street: “I stepped out into the street” she said. Obviously, this is a more reliable record than what she said a month ago.

Furthermore, Mary’s description of what happened next (i.e., AFTER she “stepped out into the street”) makes plain that, from her position in the street, she took quite a few seconds to aim the camera, and focus it. And this, by itself, indicates how slow the limo was going, and how many more seconds the assassination took, than is officially acknowledged.

Again, in Moorman's words: “And stood there and looked through it [for] quite a few seconds, since I wanted to be sure that they (JFK and Jackie—dsl) were looking at me.

And continuing: “And uh, I followed it, for, oh, so many seconds, and then I did take the picture.”

When Moorman gave this interview, she had no idea that what she was saying would undercut the authenticity of the Zapruder film, because the Z film not only shows no car stop, it does not show Moorman standing in the street, but rather up on the grass.

However, in terms of how she methodically went about taking JFK's picture, this is completely consistent with what Mary Moorman told me when I spent well over an hour with her in her home in November, 1971.

AGAIN, QUOTING FROM MY NOTES:

It was moving “very very slowly.” So slowly that she could frame the President in her viewfinder. “It was almost as if he was posing. . . “

She emphasized the fact that she (or Jean [Hill]) yelled out, “Hey look here” or some such thing.

That’s when JFK looked over, and she (Moorman) was able to frame him in view finder as if he were posing.

That’s how slow it was moving. UNQUOTE

A car moving at 15 mph is akin to a runner doing a 4 minute mile.

Even if one reduces the speed down to 10 mph, its still a very fast clip, and does not fit the description of the event that Moorman is describing.

I find it ironic that the National Archives is showing a film, at its website, that carries an account of a key witness (Moorman) which, if true, by itself establishes that the Zapruder film is a fake.

I do hope that NARA permits this CBS film to remain posted, so that other students of the Kennedy case can see this interview, listen to what Moorman says, take another look at the Zapruder film (which clearly shows Moorman standing on the grass) and judge for themselves.

I have attached to this post a single "frame grab" from this 1964 interview.

DSL

6/29/11 4:50 AM PDT

Los Angeles, CA

[Craig Lamson]

In a CBS film currently posted at the NARA website, Mary Moorman is interviewed and says that she had stepped into the street to take her famous polaroid.

The link: http://www.archive.org/details/gov.archives.arc.50248

The time: at 30 minutes.

The bottom line: In this 1964 filmed interview, an account broadcast on the evening that the Warren Report was published, Mary Moorman says she “stepped out into the street” to take her Polaroid photo, and that she stood there, focusing her camera for “quite a few seconds, since I wanted to be sure that they were looking at me.”

“. . .stepp[ing] out into the street. . “ and “focusing” the camera for “quite a few seconds” is seriously inconsistent with the known parameters of the Zapruder film.

This 1964 filmed interview—currently being shown at the NARA website—is completely consistent with the detailed report I made immediately after spending an hour or more speaking with Moorman on November 29, 1971 in Dallas.

FURTHER DISCUSSION:

The question of whether the President’s limo stopped during the shooting has been debated. If the car stopped, then the Zapruder film (among others) has been altered.

A related question is whether Moorman stepped out into the street to take her picture. If she did, the notion that the film alteration simply amounted to “editing out” a car stop can be discarded. Because if Mary Moorman stepped out into the street, a far more elaborate alteration took place. The technology existed to do this type of editing/fabrication. The question is: was it used?

THE CAR STOP:

For many years, I have believed that the car stopped momentarily, during the shooting, because in November, 1971, I interviewed witnesses who said that it did.

In November, 1971, I went to Dallas (along with a friend, Bill Corrigan) specifically to interview witnesses who were standing close to the car, and to see what they would say about a car stop. I interviewed Mary Moorman—and several other witnesses—who said the President’s car stopped during the shooting. These witnesses were Bill and Gayle Newman, John Chism, Jack Franzen and Mary Moorman. With one exception, these interviews were taped.

Moorman’s husband, at the time, was forceful in his insistence that I not record the interview. But I made notes at the time, and immediately afterwards, wrote an interview report for the file.

Here’s what Moorman told me that night, re the speed of the President’s limo—all phrased in the context of how she wanted to get the best picture possible of the President.

QUOTING FROM MY INTERVIEW REPORT:

It was moving “very very slowly.” So slowly that she could frame the President in her viewfinder. “It was almost as if he was posing.”

I believe she said that the car stopped momentarily. But she emphasized the fact that she (or Jean [Hill]) yelled out, “Hey look here” or some such thing.

That’s when JFK looked over, and she (Moorman) was able to frame him in view finder as if he were posing.

That’s how slow it was moving.

Bill Corrigan: She thought it might stop and he was going to pose; that was the impression Moorman [had] It stopped momentarily (to let the agent [Clint Hill] on); and this stop [i.e. that stop] was after the head shot. UNQUOTE

TONIGHT'S DISCOVERY (6/29/11):

Tonight, I was looking for something at the National Archives website, and noticed that they have posted there the CBS network broadcast from the night the Warren Report was released in September, 1964. Walter Cronkite (and Dan Rather) narrate; and many of the interviews (all apparently, circa 1964) are done by Eddie Barker.

It soon became evident that Mary Moorman was going to appear on this program, and so I set up a recorder to accurately record what she said.

Moorman doesn’t address the issue of whether the car stopped, but what she DOES say addresses something that is equally important: whether she was standing on the grass, when she took the picture, or whether she stepped out into the street.

If Mary Moorman stepped out into the street to take the picture, then any Zapruder film alteration was much more elaborate, than many have supposed.

WHAT MOORMAN SAYS IN THIS FILMED INTERVIEW: “I stepped out into the street.”

Here’s what Mary Moorman says, on camera, at 30 minutes into the CBS film, now being shown at the U.S. National Archives website:

30:05 “I stepped out into the street; So, I took the camera and aimed it [and] focused it.

And stood there and looked through it [for] quite a few seconds, since I wanted to be sure that they were looking at me.

And uh, I followed it, for, oh, so many seconds, and then I did take the picture. (30:27)

I’m not making this post to start a debate as to whether the car stopped. Personally, I am sure that it did, because I interviewed the witnesses in November, 1971, who were right there. They did not know what the Zapruder film showed, because this was many years before the film became available.

I’m making this post to point out something that is, in a way, a far more serious question: whether Moorman was –or was not—standing in the street.

In this interview, filmed by Eddie Barker in 1964—some 47 years ago—Moorman plainly states exactly that: that she was standing in the street: “I stepped out into the street” she said. Obviously, this is a more reliable record than what she said a month ago.

Furthermore, Mary’s description of what happened next (i.e., AFTER she “stepped out into the street”) makes plain that, from her position in the street, she took quite a few seconds to aim the camera, and focus it. And this, by itself, indicates how slow the limo was going, and how many more seconds the assassination took, than is officially acknowledged.

Again, in Moorman's words: “And stood there and looked through it [for] quite a few seconds, since I wanted to be sure that they (JFK and Jackie—dsl) were looking at me.

And continuing: “And uh, I followed it, for, oh, so many seconds, and then I did take the picture.”

When Moorman gave this interview, she had no idea that what she was saying would undercut the authenticity of the Zapruder film, because the Z film not only shows no car stop, it does not show Moorman standing in the street, but rather up on the grass.

However, in terms of how she methodically went about taking JFK's picture, this is completely consistent with what Mary Moorman told me when I spent well over an hour with her in her home in November, 1971.

AGAIN, QUOTING FROM MY NOTES:

It was moving “very very slowly.” So slowly that she could frame the President in her viewfinder. “It was almost as if he was posing. . . “

She emphasized the fact that she (or Jean [Hill]) yelled out, “Hey look here” or some such thing.

That’s when JFK looked over, and she (Moorman) was able to frame him in view finder as if he were posing.

That’s how slow it was moving. UNQUOTE

A car moving at 15 mph is akin to a runner doing a 4 minute mile.

Even if one reduces the speed down to 10 mph, its still a very fast clip, and does not fit the description of the event that Moorman is describing.

I find it ironic that the National Archives is showing a film, at its website, that carries an account of a key witness (Moorman) which, if true, by itself establishes that the Zapruder film is a fake.

I do hope that NARA permits this CBS film to remain posted, so that other students of the Kennedy case can see this interview, listen to what Moorman says, take another look at the Zapruder film (which clearly shows Moorman standing on the grass) and judge for themselves.

I have attached to this post a single "frame grab" from this 1964 interview.

DSL

6/29/11 4:50 AM PDT

Los Angeles, CA

No I don't care who you are that is just plain funny!

So tell us David, was the model 80A placed ON TOP OF HER HEAD so she could take her image?

[David G. Healy]

In a CBS film currently posted at the NARA website, Mary Moorman is interviewed and says that she had stepped into the street to take her famous polaroid.

The link: http://www.archive.org/details/gov.archives.arc.50248

The time: at 30 minutes.

The bottom line: In this 1964 filmed interview, an account broadcast on the evening that the Warren Report was published, Mary Moorman says she “stepped out into the street” to take her Polaroid photo, and that she stood there, focusing her camera for “quite a few seconds, since I wanted to be sure that they were looking at me.”

“. . .stepp[ing] out into the street. . “ and “focusing” the camera for “quite a few seconds” is seriously inconsistent with the known parameters of the Zapruder film.

This 1964 filmed interview—currently being shown at the NARA website—is completely consistent with the detailed report I made immediately after spending an hour or more speaking with Moorman on November 29, 1971 in Dallas.

FURTHER DISCUSSION:

The question of whether the President’s limo stopped during the shooting has been debated. If the car stopped, then the Zapruder film (among others) has been altered.

A related question is whether Moorman stepped out into the street to take her picture. If she did, the notion that the film alteration simply amounted to “editing out” a car stop can be discarded. Because if Mary Moorman stepped out into the street, a far more elaborate alteration took place. The technology existed to do this type of editing/fabrication. The question is: was it used?

THE CAR STOP:

For many years, I have believed that the car stopped momentarily, during the shooting, because in November, 1971, I interviewed witnesses who said that it did.

In November, 1971, I went to Dallas (along with a friend, Bill Corrigan) specifically to interview witnesses who were standing close to the car, and to see what they would say about a car stop. I interviewed Mary Moorman—and several other witnesses—who said the President’s car stopped during the shooting. These witnesses were Bill and Gayle Newman, John Chism, Jack Franzen and Mary Moorman. With one exception, these interviews were taped.

Moorman’s husband, at the time, was forceful in his insistence that I not record the interview. But I made notes at the time, and immediately afterwards, wrote an interview report for the file.

Here’s what Moorman told me that night, re the speed of the President’s limo—all phrased in the context of how she wanted to get the best picture possible of the President.

QUOTING FROM MY INTERVIEW REPORT:

It was moving “very very slowly.” So slowly that she could frame the President in her viewfinder. “It was almost as if he was posing.”

I believe she said that the car stopped momentarily. But she emphasized the fact that she (or Jean [Hill]) yelled out, “Hey look here” or some such thing.

That’s when JFK looked over, and she (Moorman) was able to frame him in view finder as if he were posing.

That’s how slow it was moving.

Bill Corrigan: She thought it might stop and he was going to pose; that was the impression Moorman [had] It stopped momentarily (to let the agent [Clint Hill] on); and this stop [i.e. that stop] was after the head shot. UNQUOTE

TONIGHT'S DISCOVERY (6/29/11):

Tonight, I was looking for something at the National Archives website, and noticed that they have posted there the CBS network broadcast from the night the Warren Report was released in September, 1964. Walter Cronkite (and Dan Rather) narrate; and many of the interviews (all apparently, circa 1964) are done by Eddie Barker.

It soon became evident that Mary Moorman was going to appear on this program, and so I set up a recorder to accurately record what she said.

Moorman doesn’t address the issue of whether the car stopped, but what she DOES say addresses something that is equally important: whether she was standing on the grass, when she took the picture, or whether she stepped out into the street.

If Mary Moorman stepped out into the street to take the picture, then any Zapruder film alteration was much more elaborate, than many have supposed.

WHAT MOORMAN SAYS IN THIS FILMED INTERVIEW: “I stepped out into the street.”

Here’s what Mary Moorman says, on camera, at 30 minutes into the CBS film, now being shown at the U.S. National Archives website:

30:05 “I stepped out into the street; So, I took the camera and aimed it [and] focused it.

And stood there and looked through it [for] quite a few seconds, since I wanted to be sure that they were looking at me.

And uh, I followed it, for, oh, so many seconds, and then I did take the picture. (30:27)

I’m not making this post to start a debate as to whether the car stopped. Personally, I am sure that it did, because I interviewed the witnesses in November, 1971, who were right there. They did not know what the Zapruder film showed, because this was many years before the film became available.

I’m making this post to point out something that is, in a way, a far more serious question: whether Moorman was –or was not—standing in the street.

In this interview, filmed by Eddie Barker in 1964—some 47 years ago—Moorman plainly states exactly that: that she was standing in the street: “I stepped out into the street” she said. Obviously, this is a more reliable record than what she said a month ago.

Furthermore, Mary’s description of what happened next (i.e., AFTER she “stepped out into the street”) makes plain that, from her position in the street, she took quite a few seconds to aim the camera, and focus it. And this, by itself, indicates how slow the limo was going, and how many more seconds the assassination took, than is officially acknowledged.

Again, in Moorman's words: “And stood there and looked through it [for] quite a few seconds, since I wanted to be sure that they (JFK and Jackie—dsl) were looking at me.

And continuing: “And uh, I followed it, for, oh, so many seconds, and then I did take the picture.”

When Moorman gave this interview, she had no idea that what she was saying would undercut the authenticity of the Zapruder film, because the Z film not only shows no car stop, it does not show Moorman standing in the street, but rather up on the grass.

However, in terms of how she methodically went about taking JFK's picture, this is completely consistent with what Mary Moorman told me when I spent well over an hour with her in her home in November, 1971.

AGAIN, QUOTING FROM MY NOTES:

It was moving “very very slowly.” So slowly that she could frame the President in her viewfinder. “It was almost as if he was posing. . . “

She emphasized the fact that she (or Jean [Hill]) yelled out, “Hey look here” or some such thing.

That’s when JFK looked over, and she (Moorman) was able to frame him in view finder as if he were posing.

That’s how slow it was moving. UNQUOTE

A car moving at 15 mph is akin to a runner doing a 4 minute mile.

Even if one reduces the speed down to 10 mph, its still a very fast clip, and does not fit the description of the event that Moorman is describing.

I find it ironic that the National Archives is showing a film, at its website, that carries an account of a key witness (Moorman) which, if true, by itself establishes that the Zapruder film is a fake.

I do hope that NARA permits this CBS film to remain posted, so that other students of the Kennedy case can see this interview, listen to what Moorman says, take another look at the Zapruder film (which clearly shows Moorman standing on the grass) and judge for themselves.

I have attached to this post a single "frame grab" from this 1964 interview.

DSL

6/29/11 4:50 AM PDT

Los Angeles, CA

No I don't care who you are that is just plain funny!

So tell us David, was the model 80A placed ON TOP OF HER HEAD so she could take her image?

you don't dance well, hon.... especially when a NYT best selling author comments, you walk right into the middle of a right-hook. Not a way to win a debate nor further the lone nut, WCR cause... however, please carry on. Enlightening...

Thanks David Lifton for posting this....

Edited June 29, 2011 by David G. Healy

[Andric Perez]

It's amazing how most CT and LN are much more interested about the issue of where Moorman was standing, than about the fact that she heard two shots after the head shot.

Let's drive that point home. She would be a great witness for the defense in a hypothetical trial against LHO.

Edited June 29, 2011 by Andric Perez

[Jim Phelps]

Moorman made several famous Polaroids that day. 3 of the JFK parade itself.

One photo is missing of the parade because she apparently gave it away. Two parked car photos exist and two of the JFK parade still exist.

It would be rather difficult for JFK to be looking up and in her direction after he was hit in the back and neck with a bullet and had his arms up. So, most likely the photo she refers to as getting his attention happened before this event. And Zapruder's Lense was not on her at that moment in time.

Before the JFK hands up event, it would be possible for her to step into the street for several seconds to get around those on the curb to look up the road toward Dal-Tex and snap JFK sitting up and smiling.

In the photo sequence above the road seen in photo 3 is clear for a long distance before the limo nears and she could easily step to street briefly. This would be the lost photo she snapped and returned to the grass. She has to moved up to the grass for photo 5 to avoid being run over by a motorcycle.

Her most famous Polaroid Photo was near the time of the head shot, and JFK was looking down, slumped over a good bit, and Jackie was trying to see what happened to him. He was not looking toward Moorman at that time. Nor would Moorman be standing in the street at that time because a motorcycle was very close on the road to prevent that happening and JFK was occupied, looking down, and not smiling in any fashion for a photo. There was about 4 seconds from the neck/back shot and the head shots, and it would be impossible for her to get a good photo of him after that back shot and those 4 seconds afterwards until the head shots.

IMHO, I suspect somewhere in Moorman's recollections she is talking about one of her first photos, out of 3 total, that was taken at least 4 seconds before her famous head-shot near time photo.

I am not impressed this has any affect on the Zapruder Film's witness to that day's events. IMHO, I am convinced that things have been removed from sequence and the issues confused because they were taken out of the whole physical context.

Moorman has effectively cleared up any question per the standing in the street for the near head-shot issue. She stated the head shot instance photo was taken by her on the grass.

IMHO, To attempt to claim otherwise is beating a dead horse.

========

Edited June 29, 2011 by Jim Phelps

[Craig Lamson]

you don't dance well, hon.... especially when a NYT best selling author comments, you walk right into the middle of a right-hook. Not a way to win a debate nor further the lone nut, WCR cause... however, please carry on. Enlightening...

Thanks David Lifton for posting this....

"

Oh I dance quite well, thank you very much. This "NYT best selling author" showed his lack of technical strength and got taken to the wood shed by yours truly when he commented on his silly full flush left garbage.

Which brings us back to the original question..Did Moorman place the camera on top of her head to take her famous polaroid, because that's the only way to take it from the street....

Why don't you weigh in dave, go on record for a change. You got the guts?

Edited June 29, 2011 by Craig Lamson

[David Josephs]

Mrs. Jean Hill and I were standing on the grass by the park on Elm Street between the underpass and the corner of Elm & Houston. I had a Polaroid Camera [sic] with me and was intending to take pictures of President Kennedy and the motorcade. As the motorcade started toward me I took two pictures. As President Kennedy was opposite me I took a picture of him.

Didn't she also say she stepped back up onto the grass after photo #3 or 4? No reason to believe she didn't jump out when the motorcade made its turn... took #3 and 4

then stepped back up to AVOID GETTING RUN OVER... look at Altgens - by this time she is well back off the street as seen by her shadow...

Look at Bronson below with Z embedded... Noone is in the street... Same with Muchmoore...

If Moorman was in the street, her photo doesn't work and she gets run over by motorcycles...

I am blown away by DSL promoting this idea when it is more than obvious from a number of sources that she was NOT in the street for the last photo...

In fact I don't think she was inthe street for #3 either based on the height of the windshield on the bike being similiar to that in Moorman 5..

If Moorman #4 was in the street... facing back UP the street toward JFK and TSBD it might have been tilted UP since both the street rose in that direction and she was so short..

THAT would have been the photo that shows shooters in the TSBD... a possibly on a different floor than the 6th... "possible"

Finally... is this moorman talking to someone... I thought she and Jean went across the street..

[Dean Hagerman]

David Josephs

How can you even comment on what Moorman was doing during the shooting when you have no clue what she was doing after the shooting!

You cant even tell that Moorman is talking to Jim Featherstone and showing her the pictures that she took!

"I ran to Dealey Plaza, a few yards away, and this is where I first learned the president had been shot. I found two young women, Mary Moorman and Jean Lollis Hill, near the curb on Dealey Plaza. Both had been within a few feet of the spot where Kennedy was shot, and Mary Moorman had taken a Polaroid picture of Jackie Kennedy cradling the president's head in her arms. It was a poorly focused and snowy picture, but, as far as I knew then, it was the only such picture in existence. I wanted the picture and I also wanted the two women's eyewitness accounts of the shooting.

I told Mrs. Moorman I wanted the picture for the Times Herald and she agreed. I then told both of them I would like for them to come with me to the courthouse pressroom so I could get their stories and both agreed. . . . I called the city desk and told Tom LePere, an assistant city editor, that the president had been shot. "Really? Let me switch you to rewrite," LePere said, unruffled as if it were a routine story. I briefly told the rewrite man what had happened and then put Mary Moorman and Jean Lollis Hill on the phone so they could tell what they had seen in their own words. Mrs. Moorman, in effect, said she was so busy taking the picture that she really didn't see anything. Mrs. Hill, however, gave a graphic account of seeing Kennedy shot a few feet in front of her eyes."

How do you not know that?! Why are you even asking if that is Mary Moorman talking to "someone"

You make every CT look stupid by not even having basic knowledge about what photos Moorman is even in!

Edit: For a free history lesson the photo was taken by Frank Cancellare

Edited June 30, 2011 by Dean Hagerman

[Josiah Thompson]

I think we have photos showing Jean Hill in her red coat running up the steps onto the knoll, David. I think we have another photo showing Mary Moorman sitting by herself in the grass. We know that reporter Featherstone spoke to Moorman while she was still in Dealey Plaza on the grass but I'm not sure the man shown is Featherstone.

How many times does this silly ass claim have to be refuted?

If you go to the CBS show DSL has given the link to, you will find that Moorman is only interviewed for a very short time... a number of seconds. I did my time with Dan Rather over several CBS shows and the problem is CBS controls the cuts. I was appalled a couple of times when I saw how CBS cut what I said. The same probably applies here to Mary Moorman. We have no idea what she said, say, a minute and one-half later, that was left on the cutting room floor.

(1) Jack White claimed to have found a line-of-sight in the Moorman photo defined by the top left corner of the Zapruder pedestal and the botton right corner of a window beyond. If you establish this line-of-sight in Dealey Plaza it establishes a position in the grass by the south curb forty some inches above the grass. White used this to argue that Moorman was faked up in the Zapruder film because she was shown taking her photo from a standing position fifty some inches above the grass. But White made a mistake of observation. The two points named by White don't line up in the Moorman photo. Hence, White's line-of-sight is not to be seen in the Moorman photo. The true line-of-sight in the Moorman photos is some inches higher than the White line-of-sight. It matches perfectly the position of Moorman as shown in the Zapruder, Muchmore, Nix films.

(2) Moorman and Hill's shadows standing on the grass by the curb are seen in the famous Altgens photo. That photo makes clear that had Moorman stepped into the street she would have been run over by DPD motorcyclists Martin and Hargis or they would have had to take dramatic evasive action to miss her. No witness saw the motorcyclists do anything but what the photos and films showed they did... cruise down Elm Street right by the south curb.

(3) Moorman did step into the street to take two of her photos of DPD cyclists. We know this because the surviving photo shows her camera looking up at the 58" high top of the cyclist's windshield.

(4) Bill Miller did a neat piece of investigation here. He tracked down one of the motorcade cycles to a museum in North Dakota or somewhere like that. He got the museum director to pump up the tires properly and determine the height of the windshield top from the ground. It was 58". Bill Miller than pointed out that the Moorman photo shows that the camera lens was looking down on the 58" top of the two cyclists' windshields. The only way the photo could have been taken from the street was if Mary Moorman put her camera either on her head or over her head. In short, the photo itself shows it was taken from the higher location on the turf and not from the street.

It is also the case that Moorman testified under oath in 1969 at the Clay Shaw trial and identified her position on the grass during this testimony. The alterationists have been using this argument for over a decade and it's a drag to see it resuscitated again. Sorry, DSL, but this hound won't hunt, it won't even move!

JT

Mrs. Jean Hill and I were standing on the grass by the park on Elm Street between the underpass and the corner of Elm & Houston. I had a Polaroid Camera [sic] with me and was intending to take pictures of President Kennedy and the motorcade. As the motorcade started toward me I took two pictures. As President Kennedy was opposite me I took a picture of him.

Didn't she also say she stepped back up onto the grass after photo #3 or 4? No reason to believe she didn't jump out when the motorcade made its turn... took #3 and 4

then stepped back up to AVOID GETTING RUN OVER... look at Altgens - by this time she is well back off the street as seen by her shadow...

Look at Bronson below with Z embedded... Noone is in the street... Same with Muchmoore...

If Moorman was in the street, her photo doesn't work and she gets run over by motorcycles...

I am blown away by DSL promoting this idea when it is more than obvious from a number of sources that she was NOT in the street for the last photo...

In fact I don't think she was inthe street for #3 either based on the height of the windshield on the bike being similiar to that in Moorman 5..

If Moorman #4 was in the street... facing back UP the street toward JFK and TSBD it might have been tilted UP since both the street rose in that direction and she was so short..

THAT would have been the photo that shows shooters in the TSBD... a possibly on a different floor than the 6th... "possible"

Finally... is this moorman talking to someone... I thought she and Jean went across the street..

[Jim Phelps]

The claim of Moorman standing in the street for her last, or head shots time frame, Polaroid photo is impeached. She was standing on the grass for that last photo. Supported by her own recent witness, various other photos / films, and even the Z-film. All consistent. Claim is multiplly impeached.

IMHO, The issue was pulling off a comment about another of her photos and out of the physical context.

Seconded:

Perez: "about the fact that she heard two shots after the head shot"

Zapruder analysis indicates two head shots. Second head shot came from Grassy Knoll and a shot a second behind that came from TSBD.

Edited June 30, 2011 by Jim Phelps

[David Lifton]

[snip]

If you go to the CBS show DSL has given the link to, you will find that Moorman is only interviewed for a very short time... a number of seconds. I did my time with Dan Rather over several CBS shows and the problem is CBS controls the cuts. I was appalled a couple of times when I saw how CBS cut what I said. The same probably applies here to Mary Moorman. We have no idea what she said, say, a minute and one-half later, that was left on the cutting room floor.

(DSL Interjection Yes, it would be nice to see the full interview. But I don't think it changes the validity of the excerpt.)

(1) Jack White claimed to have found a line-of-sight in the Moorman photo defined by the top left corner of the Zapruder pedestal and the botton right corner of a window beyond. If you establish this line-of-sight in Dealey Plaza it establishes a position in the grass by the south curb forty some inches above the grass. White used this to argue that Moorman was faked up in the Zapruder film because she was shown taking her photo from a standing position fifty some inches above the grass. But White made a mistake of observation. The two points named by White don't line up in the Moorman photo. Hence, White's line-of-sight is not to be seen in the Moorman photo. The true line-of-sight in the Moorman photos is some inches higher than the White line-of-sight. It matches perfectly the position of Moorman as shown in the Zapruder, Muchmore, Nix films.

(2) Moorman and Hill's shadows standing on the grass by the curb are seen in the famous Altgens photo. That photo makes clear that had Moorman stepped into the street she would have been run over by DPD motorcyclists Martin and Hargis or they would have had to take dramatic evasive action to miss her. No witness saw the motorcyclists do anything but what the photos and films showed they did... cruise down Elm Street right by the south curb.

(3) Moorman did step into the street to take two of her photos of DPD cyclists. We know this because the surviving photo shows her camera looking up at the 58" high top of the cyclist's windshield.

(4) Bill Miller did a neat piece of investigation here. He tracked down one of the motorcade cycles to a museum in North Dakota or somewhere like that. He got the museum director to pump up the tires properly and determine the height of the windshield top from the ground. It was 58". Bill Miller than pointed out that the Moorman photo shows that the camera lens was looking down on the 58" top of the two cyclists' windshields. The only way the photo could have been taken from the street was if Mary Moorman put her camera either on her head or over her head. In short, the photo itself shows it was taken from the higher location on the turf and not from the street.

It is also the case that Moorman testified under oath in 1969 at the Clay Shaw trial and identified her position on the grass during this testimony. The alterationists have been using this argument for over a decade and it's a drag to see it resuscitated again. Sorry, DSL, but this hound won't hunt, it won't even move!

JT

Of all the arguments I've heard, I think the Bill Miller "height of the motorcycle" argument is the most important. Nonetheless, I'm still impressed by the fact that if one goes to the earliest recorded interviews, Moorman says she was in the street. These records are not easy to come by, but that's what she said. And I spent quite a bit of time transcribing the earliest interview (which follows below).

I’m well aware that if the films have not been altered, then Mary Moorman was standing up on the grass. I’m also aware that a KRLD interview conducted some months later perhaps would not provide as accurate an account of what she saw as one conducted minutes later. (Certainly, what she said a month ago really has no standing in this kind of debate).

With these factors in mind, read what is below—the transcript I made of the tape at NARA of Jean Hill and Mary Moorman being interviewed within 30 minutes or so of the shooting.

Re Moorman’s location (as described by Moorman): Being located “on the grass” is not what Moorman said in the filmed interview posted at the NARA site. More important, that is not what Moorman said in the KRLD (radio) interview on Friday afternoon, November 22, as recorded on the KRLD audio tape available at the National Archives. There, too, she said she was standing in the street.

Of course, its possible to argue that Moorman repeatedly made an error—the same error—in describing where she was standing. But I think this audio-taped record speaks for itself. Remember: both these witnesses not only give a description of where they were standing which is at variance with the Z film, but they also both say that the car stopped.

I made a copy of this tape around 1970, and what follows is my transcript:

FIRST, THE KEY EXCERPTS (and below that, the entire taped interview):

MOORMAN:

MM: (unclear)* stepped out in the street. We were right at the car.

* * *

Q: How many shots did you hear? You say “shots rang out.”

MM: “Oh, oh, I don’t know. I think three or four is what I, I uh, that I heard (then, continuing) that I’m sure of (emphasis as in original). Now, I don’t know, there might have been more.

* * *

The sound popped, well it just sounded like, well, you know, there might have been a firecracker right there in the car.

Jean Hill

JH: The motorcade was stunned after the first two shots (emphasis added), and it came to a momentary halt, and about that time, 4 more uh, 3 to 4 more shots again rang out,

* * * FULL TRANSCRIPT - - KRLD Tape 5B/6A – Excerpt of Hill/Moorman Interview

Note: The interview begins with Jean Hill, who then brings Mary to the phone. Then it goes back to Hill.

Q: Hello, Miss Hill. Did you say you were at the site of the assassination?

JH: Yes, sir, we were; my friend took the picture as he was hit.

Q: You saw ‘m took the picture, and you were there, too?

JH My friend took the picture, as he was hit.

Q: I see, you were both there at the scene?

JH: That’s right.

Q: Who was your friend?

A: Mary Moorman.

Q: Is he (sic—means “she”) there now?

A: Yes, she is.

Q: May I speak with her?

JH: Yes; after she took the picture she fell on the ground.

Q: Uh huh.

JH: And she didn’t know he was shot.

Q: Yes, uh. . .

JH: Just a moment; (calling) “Mary!”

MM: Hello,

Q: Hello, Mrs. Moorman?

MM: Yes.

Q: You took the picture just after the shooting, or just before?

MM: Evidently, just immediately, As the . . . cause he was, he was looking, you know, when (ever?) I got the camera focused and then I snapped it in my picture, he slumped over.

Q: What type of picture was this?

MM: A Polaroid picture.

Q: About how close were you?

MM: (background talk, as she discusses it, can’t make out).

Q Fairly close.

MM Ten or fifteen foot, I, no more (unint). . .because I fell behind my camera.

DSL NOTE: Its not clear what she means by “I ell behind my camera.”

Q: This was right at the underpass?

A: Yes, just a few feet from the underpass (continues, but she is cut off)

Q: Were you up on that grassy bank there?

(DSL NOTE: A KEY QUESTION. Note her answer.)

MM: (unclear)* # stepped out in the street. We were right at the car.

DSL Note: Further analysis must be done to get out the word preceding “stepped”.

Gary Mack has listened to the tape. He says it states:

Q: Were you up on that grassy bank there?

Moorman: Yes, that’s where we were and I stepped out in the street. We were right at the car.

Q: Uh hh.

MM. ((he has cut her off, and she is continuing). . . she (?) hollered.

Q: Did you see any suspicious person, in conn. . . ?

MM Yeah, of course, I have, I was just uh you know (unclear word) my camera, and when I took that the shots had rang out, and I wasn’t looking around.

Q: How many shots did you hear? You say “shots rang out.”

MM: “Oh, oh, I don’t know. I think three or four is what I, I uh, that I heard (then, continuing) that I’m sure of (emphasis as in original). Now, I don’t know, there might have been more.

Q: What was your first thought?

MM: That those are shots. I mean, he had been hit. (uh huh) and that they’re liable to hit me, ‘cause I’m right at the car, so I decided (unint) [that] the safest place to be ???) the place for me is to get on the ground. (laughs)

Q: So uh, how did the President respond to this shot. I mean, did he just slump suddenly?

MM: He grabbed his chest, and of course Mrs. Kennedy jumped up immediately, and fell over him; and she said: “My God, he’s been shot!”

Q: Did you notice any other reactions, to persons around him? Around the President in the motorcade there, at the time of the shot?

MM: Uh, they hesitated just for a moment, [referring, I think, to the car stop—dsl] cause I think they were like I was, you know—‘Was that a shot, or (a? just?) backfire, or just what? And then, course, he clutched himself and they immediately sped up, real fast, you know—like—to get out of there. And, uh, the police, there were several motorcycles around him; and, uh, they stopped, and uh—one or two must of went with him, and one ran up the hill, and a friend that was with me ran up the hill, across the street from where the shots came from.

Q: . Did they…

MM: (continuing) there was just confusion, then.

Q: Did the reports, of the shot, in other words, the sound of the explosion, could they sound rather loud?

MM: Yes, they did. Just like a firecracker going off (down at the cross?)

Q: It seemed fairly close by?

MM: Yes, uh huh.

Q: And from what direction did they seem to be?

MM: (Oh (Lord? North ?) Just back there (at—laughs)

Q: Just right at you?

MM; Yes, sir. Yeah

MM: (continuing) (.a. . )a and we’re just lying so hard, you know? And uh, just went into the. . . .

1102

BEGIN Tape 6B

MM (continuing. . . )

The sound popped, well it just sounded like, well, you know, there might have been a firecracker right there in the car.

Q And in your picture, uh, you uh took this picture just before the shot?

Or, right at the time (of the shot?) (( he is cut off by Moorman, who is then saying. . . ))

MM: Evidently, at the minute* that is, that it hit him because, uh, he was, he was looking, at me, or I mean, he was looking, you know, at the people when (or “whenever”) my picture came out, (they just, just slumped over, so I must have got it.

(words, unintelligible)

* means “instant”

Q: And this shows, in your picture, does it?

This shows, in your picture, that something happened to him?

MM: Yes, uh huh. You could ( ) he’s clutched, he’s bent over, and she’s, [. . . ] and she hadn’t even gotten up in my picture, and she did get up, stood up, in the car.

Q You submitted your picture to the Times-Herald, did you?

MM: Well, not exactly (laughs)

Q: Uh huh.

MM: They just have my picture.

Q: Oh, I see. Well, thank you very much, Mrs. Moorman, and where do you live, please?

MM: I’m at 2832 Ripplewood.

* * *

JEAN HILL - - continuing on KRLD Tape 6B:

JH: I suppose we were the people closest to the President’s car, at the time.

Q: Uh, that was abut 10 or fifteen feet, you’d say?

JH: Not anymore than that at all.

Q: Uh huh. You were both looking right at the presidential car, then?

JH: We were looking right at the President; we were looking in his face. As Mary took the picture; I was looking at him.

DSL note: That is not shown on the Z film. Hill is looking, seemingly nonchalantly, towards the rear of the car!

Q: Uh huh.

A: And he grabbed his hands crossed his ch—when two shots rang out. He grabbed his hands across his chest, I have never seen anyone killed, or in pain before like that but, there was this odd look came across his face, and he pitched forward onto Jackie’s lap. ((DSL Note: almost certainly means: to the side, because Jackie was to JFK’s left side)

Q: Yes.

JH: And uh, she immediately, we were close enough to even hear her, and everything, and she fell across him and says “My God, he’s been shot.”

Q: You were both eyewitnesses to just about the same scene, but although she was taking a picture, you were not. Did you notice particularly any o’ the other people around? At the time (Hill cuts in)

JH: There was no one around us on our side of the street. We had planned

it that way; we wanted to be to be down [there] by ourselves. That’s the reason we had gotten almost to the Underpass, so we’d be completely in the clear.

Q: Uh huh.

Q: Any other reactions from the other people in the motorcade? That you recall?

((DSL note: again, a peculiar question, as if he’s seeking info re the SS non-reaction, or whether she is a witness to the follow-up guys having piled out of the car, etc.))

JH: The motorcade was stunned after the first two shots (emphasis added), and it came to a momentary halt, and about that time, 4 more uh, 3 to 4 more shots again rang out, and I guess it just didn’t register with me. Mary was uh had gotten down on the ground and was pulling at my leg, saying “Get, Get down, they’re shooting, get down, they’re shooting; and I didn’t even realize it. And I just kept sitting there looking. And uh uh just about that time, well, of course, some of the motorcycles pulled away, and some of them pulled over to the side and started running up the bank*. There’s a [or “this”] hill on the other side…(she is interrupted). . .

DSL Note: only one officer, I think, ran up the knoll—and that was Haygood. So if she looked up (after having fallen down) and thinks multiple cycle cops ran up there, she is almost certainly seeing the same “police” that Zapruder saw (and who he says were “running behind me” etc.

Q: Yes, maam.

JH: And the shots came from there.

The {or “but”—dsl} after they were momentarily stopped [emphasis added] –after the first two shots— {DSL NOTE: car stop}

Q: (interrupting) Yes, ma’am (spoken very quickly)

JH Then they sped away real quickly.

Q: Well, thankyou very much Miss uh Mary Moorman, and uh where do you live please?

JH I’m Jean Hill.

Q: I mean Miss Hill; I’m sorry. (mumble) We just talked to Miss Moorman.

JH Well, thank you Miss Hill, and also Miss Moorman, for speaking with us about this.

A: Thank you.

[Karl Kinaski]

Even the guys who were watching the killing from the third floor of the county criminal courts building (at Huston street Dealy Plaza) gave prove, that the Zappi film is crap. When some odd SS men brought Jean Hill up there, the following dialog occurred. (It was 15 Minutes after the shooting)

Quote from THE LAST DISSENTING WITNESS by Jean Hill:

Interrogator at third floor: Do you see a bullet hit the ground near you?

Hill: Not that I remember, why?

I: THAN WHAT MADE YOU JUMP BACK FROM THE PRESIDENTS CAR SO SUDDENLY? Hill: I just realized, that I shouldn't touch it, thats all.

I: WHAT WHERE YOU DOING OUT IN THE STREET IN THE FIRST PLACE?(SIC)

Hill: I was trying to get him to turn toward me.

close quote

KK

[Jim Phelps]

Just so much smoke

The Zapruder Film's witness is still as Solid as the Rock of Gibralta. The motorcycle windshield height information solidly impeached all issue of Moorman standing in the street for the head shots time frame Polaroid Photo. Moorman also recently said she was on the grass. Doubly impeaching the claim.

Everyone recognizes that all the questioning was leading and devisive for the cover up of the JFK assassination and attempting to shoe horn everything into 3 shots, TSBD, and LHO.

It became even worse with the Warren Commission's efforts.

The real issues were that Jean Hill reported seeing Jack Ruby running toward the Grassy Knoll and she heard shot coming from Grassy Knoll. So, they aggrivated the stuffings out of her to try and make her change her story.

Hooking up Ruby was a sure formula for disaster as he quickly links back to Chicago and Ruby's Drug dealing there and the Bronfman Drug dealings and Morty Bloomfield. Ruby even changes his name to avoid such an obvious association when he moved to Dallas.

All the rest is just so much noise to avoid that association.

Edited June 30, 2011 by Jim Phelps

[Karl Kinaski]

@Phelps:...its funny to see you jumping from "Moorman in the street" to Morty Bloomfield...to much coffee?

KK

[Jim Phelps]

Don't do Coffee.

You jumped to Jean Hill. So, Just following all the Jean Hill issues, so she can be seen in context of that time.

===========

http://www.amazon.com/JFK-Dissenting-Witness-Oliver-Stone/dp/0882899228

"It seems surprising that there has never before been a book by Jean Hill, familiar to JFK assassination buffs as "the lady in red" who was standing only feet away from the presidential car when the shots were fired. She testified and insisted through years of discouragement, disbelief and distortions on the part of investigators, the FBI, the Warren Commission and others, that she saw an unidentifiable man firing from the grassy knoll and later a person who looked exactly like Jack Ruby running toward that man. Readers of this swollen account, coauthored with a Dallas journalist, will discover that Hill early on decided to add nothing further, having been intimidated by frequent phone threats, the sabotage of her car and an alarming move against one of her children. Only when she came to know Jim Marrs, author of one of the books on which Oliver Stone's film JFK was based , and later the movie people themselves, did she come out of her shell and rejoice in her standing as the last living major dissenting witness. Her tale is often engaging, sometimes infuriating; the feisty schoolteacher emerges ultimately as something of a folk heroine.

Some of the most interesting facts presented in this book are:

1. Jean Hill saw Jack Ruby run at break-neck speed from the Texas Book Depository to the fence on the grassy knoll immediately after the shooting of JFK, as she ran towards the fence where she thought the shooter was.

2. She saw a man in a Dallas-police uniform holding a rifle and standing behind the fence on the grassy knoll, immediately after the shooting, right before she was grabbed and escorted away by two Secret Service men.

3. Her boyfriend was J.B. Marshall, the Dallas police officer who was on a motorcycle to the left rear of the president's car and who's helmet and bike got splattered with JFK's blood and brains. He told her that LBJ's Secret Service people instructed the motorcycle cops at the Dallas airport that these changes were being made: (a) the parade route was being changed to cut through Dealey Plaza on Elm Street; ( the motorcycle cops would not be at the front of the presidential limousine as they normally would have been, but would only be at the rear of the presidential limousine; © the order of the cars in the motorcade was changed so that Johnson's car would not be immediately behind the presidential car, but that a carload of Secret Service would be in between the President's car and LBJ's car. Most shocking of all, was his report to Jean Hill that another motorcycle cop witnessed that LBJ started ducking down in his car at least 30 to 40 seconds before the first shots were fired.

4. Arlen Specter, who questioned her in Dallas for the Warren Commission, was the one who proposed the "single bullet theory" that was adopted by the Warren Commission. His butchered transcript of her testimony to the Warren Commission was "heavily edited, completely distorted and shamelessly fabricated."

Author Bill Sloan does a credible job of telling Jean Hill's story and explaining her inner turmoil and emotional trauma about being a witness to the assassination. He explains about:

1. Why she refused to go to Washington to testify before the Warren Commission.

2. That she was romantically involved with a married man at the time (J.B. Marshall) and how he repeatedly tried to convince her to keep quiet about what she knew, and how he evidently knew more than he wanted to tell her.

3. That the FBI kept her home under surveillance for 15 months after the assassination.

4. Why she would not testify in the trial of Clay Shaw in New Orleans, although J.B. Marshall and Mary Moorman did.

5. Her eventual vindication and validation through experiences with Bill Marrs (author of Crossfire) who introduced her to others who witnessed the assassination, and her experiences with Oliver Stone and Kevin Cossner during the filming of the movie "JFK."

6. The details of the attempts on her life (most significantly, one almost-fatal car wreck caused by the steering-wheel bolts being unscrewed and another time when her car's brake-fluid line was found to be cut).

The most inexplicable fact about Jean Hill's story is why was Jack Ruby running at break-neck speed towards the shooter behind the fence on the grassy knoll?

=====================

Rather interesting that the SS types gave up information on more than 3 shots.

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKhillJ.htm

"Jean Hill: That's right, and I talked with this man, a Secret Service man, and I said, "Am I a kook or what's wrong with me?" I said, "They keep saying three shots - three shots," and I said, "I know I heard more. I heard from four to six shots anyway." He said, "Mrs. Hill, we were standing at the window and we heard more shots also, but we have three wounds and we have three bullets, three shots is all that we are willing to say right now.""

====================

Then there is this hot little item that speaks to her seeing the bulge at the back of JFK's head that is seen in two different films on the assassination, including Zapruder's. The same issue that Richard Feynman exposed and was later present on YouTube by Bob Harris.

http://www.clintbradford.com/whitmey1.htm

She also recalled seeing "..the hair on the back of President Kennedy's head fly up" followed by Mrs. Kennedy crying out that he had been shot as "..the President fell forward in his seat."

==========

Synopsis:

Jean Hill was on target-----5 shots appears the correct number.

She saw the little white puppet thing--"lamb-chop".

She saw the hair bulge on back of JFK's head due to Grassy Knoll shot.

She gets a lot of details right on the money.

I'd say that really corroborates that Zapruder's Film is solid as the Rock of Gibralta.

I assume you wanted to be helpful in bringing up Jean Hill's witnessing for the event, so I just took the ball and ran with it.

Edited June 30, 2011 by Jim Phelps