Thomas Graves Posted June 5, 2013 Author Share Posted June 5, 2013 (edited) Dear Paul, I'm afraid you're mistaken about the "dishonorable discharge" bit. Oswald may have mistakenly assumed that he was appealing a serious "dishonorable discharge." Why? Well, because about a year after he had (allegedly) defected to the Soviet Union, his mother relayed to him the incorrect information that that was what he had recently been given! But Oswald never was given a "dishonorable discharge." The truth is that he was given a dependency discharge around September 1, 1959, so that he could take care of his injured mother. At that time he was also transferred from active duty to the reserves. This dependency discharge was changed to an undesirable discharge (less serious than a "dishonorable discharge") on September 13, 1960, almost one full year after Oswald "defected" to the Soviet Union... So I suppose the question is whether or not Oswald would have protested at all against the less-serious undesirable discharge which he was, in fact, given. Perhaps not. I mean, what could he have (plausibly) expected, anyway, given his trying to defect (or "defect") to the Soviet Union and everything. And maybe, if Oswald was a US spy, maybe his CIA/ONI controllers told him in advance that he'd be given an undesirable discharge after "defecting" in order to make the defection look more real to the Ruskies. I mean, after all, what would the Ruskies have thought if Oswald had retained his (honorable) dependency discharge (or something equally honorable) after defecting to the Soviet Union and offering to give up some juicy Marine Corps "aviation electronics operator" secrets, especially knowing that Oswald had informed the U.S. Embassy of his intention to do so? Anyway, the following is from the Warren Commission Report, Appendix 13: Biography of Lee Harvey Oswald: " [...] Oswald was obligated to serve on active duty until December 7, 1959 (the date having been adjusted to compensate for the period of confinement). (451) On August 17, he submitted a request for a dependency discharge, on the ground that his mother needed his support. (452) [...] on August 28, the [Marine Corps] Wing Hardship or Dependency Discharge Board recommended that Oswald's request for a discharge be approved; (455) approval followed shortly. (456) On September 4, he was transferred from MACS-9 to the H. & H. Squadron, (457) and on September 11, he was released from active duty and transferred to the Marine Corps Reserve, in which he was expected to serve until December 8, 1962. (458) He was assigned to the Marine Air Reserve Training Command at the Naval Air Station in Glenview, Ill. (459) Almost exactly 1 year later, on September 13, 1960, Oswald was given an "undesirable discharge" from the Marine Corps Reserve, (460)... [...] http://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/warren-commission-report/appendix-13.htm Sincerely, --Tommy Paul Trejo said: [Oswald's] "undesirable discharge" status does not appear to me to be a reasonable outcome of a successful spy-training mission in Russia. It seems to me that Lee Harvey Oswald botched his training mission somewhere. Paul, The following was "lifted" and expanded from my ongoing, constantly-morphing, and superseded post, this thread: If Oswald was a US spy, maybe his CIA/ONI controllers told him in advance that he'd be given an undesirable discharge after "defecting" to Russia in order to make the defection look more real to the Ruskies. And if that was the case, then maybe Oswald was really PO-ed when he heard from his ill-informed mom that he'd gotten a dishonorable discharge, instead. Ironically, Oswald could have just been trying to "upgrade" his misperceived "dishonorable" discharge status to the "undesirable" one that he'd originally been promised! I think it's logical to assume that Oswald's actually getting an (unbeknownst-to-him) "undesirable discharge" after defecting actually argues for his being a US spy. I mean, if he'd been a true defector and traitor, wouldn't he really have gotten a dishonorable discharge? Could it be that Marguerite Oswald was intentionally misinformed by someone as to what kind of discharge her son had been given one year after "defecting?" You know, in order to manipulate LHO in some special way? --Tommy Edited June 5, 2013 by Thomas Graves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Trejo Posted June 5, 2013 Share Posted June 5, 2013 (edited) Paul, The following was "lifted" and expanded from my ongoing, constantly-morphing, and superseded post, this thread: If Oswald was a US spy, maybe his CIA/ONI controllers told him in advance that he'd be given an undesirable discharge after "defecting" to Russia in order to make the defection look more real to the Ruskies. And if that was the case, then maybe Oswald was really PO-ed when he heard from his ill-informed mom that he'd gotten a dishonorable discharge, instead. Ironically, Oswald could have just been trying to "upgrade" his misperceived "dishonorable" discharge status to the "undesirable" one that he'd originally been promised! I think it's logical to assume that Oswald's actually getting an (unbeknownst-to-him) "undesirable discharge" after defecting actually argues for his being a US spy. I mean, if he'd been a true defector and traitor, wouldn't he really have gotten a dishonorable discharge? Could it be that Marguerite Oswald was intentionally misinformed by someone as to what kind of discharge her son had been given one year after "defecting?" You know, in order to manipulate LHO in some special way? --Tommy Well, Tommy, we need to seek that point at which Lee Harvey Oswald would finally receive regular employment from the CIA (or FBI or ONI). The trouble I have with your hypothesis is that if Lee Harvey Oswald was successful in his spy-training mission, then why didn't Oswald join Richard Helms, James Jesus Angleton, David Atlee Phillips and all the other guys with fat incomes and single family housing and a new car? That is, why wasn't Oswald given a real job? Obviously that is what he wanted. If he was so successful, then why was he denied? The fact that Oswald lived like a pauper does not suggest success to me. One can work underground and still live comfortably. It seems more likely that the CIA (etc.) rejected Oswald. He botched his mission. If one wishes to explain how a CIA agent could be made into a patsy, this is the most straightforward way; Oswald wasn't really a CIA agent, he was a "wannabe" CIA agent. Thus it would have been relatively easy to make Oswald into a patsy. Best regards, --Paul Trejo Edited June 5, 2013 by Paul Trejo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Graves Posted June 5, 2013 Author Share Posted June 5, 2013 (edited) Paul, The following was "lifted" and expanded from my ongoing, constantly-morphing, and superseded post, this thread: If Oswald was a US spy, maybe his CIA/ONI controllers told him in advance that he'd be given an undesirable discharge after "defecting" to Russia in order to make the defection look more real to the Ruskies. And if that was the case, then maybe Oswald was really PO-ed when he heard from his ill-informed mom that he'd gotten a dishonorable discharge, instead. Ironically, Oswald could have just been trying to "upgrade" his misperceived "dishonorable" discharge status to the "undesirable" one that he'd originally been promised! I think it's logical to assume that Oswald's actually getting an (unbeknownst-to-him) "undesirable discharge" after defecting actually argues for his being a US spy. I mean, if he'd been a true defector and traitor, wouldn't he really have gotten a dishonorable discharge? Could it be that Marguerite Oswald was intentionally misinformed by someone as to what kind of discharge her son had been given one year after "defecting?" You know, in order to manipulate LHO in some special way? --Tommy Well, Tommy, we need to seek that point at which Lee Harvey Oswald would finally receive regular employment from the CIA (or FBI or ONI). The trouble I have with your hypothesis is that if Lee Harvey Oswald was successful in his spy-training mission, then why didn't Oswald join Richard Helms, James Jesus Angleton, David Atlee Phillips and all the other guys with fat incomes and single family housing and a new car? That is, why wasn't Oswald given a real job? Obviously that is what he wanted. If he was so successful, then why was he denied? The fact that Oswald lived like a pauper does not suggest success to me. One can work underground and still live comfortably. It seems more likely that the CIA (etc.) rejected Oswald. He botched his mission. If one wishes to explain how a CIA agent could be made into a patsy, this is the most straightforward way; Oswald wasn't really a CIA agent, he was a "wannabe" CIA agent. Thus it would have been relatively easy to make Oswald into a patsy. Best regards, --Paul Trejo Dear Paul, Why do you call Oswald's lengthy sojourn in Russia a "training mission?" Training for what ? Why would you send a "spy trainee" to Russia for 2.5 years during the depths of the Cold War? To teach him how to get in quickly via Helsinki? To give him an opportunity to improve his Russian via the "total immersion" method? Do we know of anyone else in the military reserves who became. or already was, a "spy trainee" and who was told to live in a communist country in the Fifties or Sixties as part of his or her training? Isn't there is evidence, as told to Dick Russell by Richard Case Nagell, that Oswald was already actively involved in intelligence or counterintelligence activities in Japan in the late 1950's? Couldn't Oswald have been manipulated from early on in his low-level spy career by being told that he'd be provided with employment for the time being and "really taken care of" financially "later on?" Didn't Oswald tell someone in New Orleans that his "ship had come in?" What kind of "fat cat" good-paying "real job" could the borderline dysfunctional Oswald have performed successfully, anyway? Warmest regards, --Tommy Edited June 6, 2013 by Thomas Graves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tom Scully Posted June 6, 2013 Share Posted June 6, 2013 (edited) .....................................................................Dear Paul,Why do you call Oswald's lengthy sojourn in Russia a "training mission?" Training for what ? Why would you send a "spy trainee" to Russia for 2.5 years during the depths of the Cold War? To teach him how to get in quickly via Helsinki? To give him an opportunity to improve his Russian language abilities by using the "total immersion" method? Do we know of anyone else in the military reserves who became. or already was, a "spy trainee" and who was told to live in a communist country in the Fifties or Sixties as part of his or her training? Isn't there is evidence, as told to Dick Russell by Richard Case Nagell, that Oswald was already actively involved in intelligence or counterintelligence activities in Japan in the late 1950's? Couldn't Oswald have been manipulated from early on in his low-level spy career by being told that he'd be provided with employment for the time being and "really taken care of" financially "later on?" Didn't Oswald tell someone in New Orleans that his "ship had come in?" What kind of "fat cat" good-paying "real job" could the borderline dysfunctional Oswald have performed successfully, anyway? Warmest regards, --Tommy My theory is that Harry is only giving Paul ten and twenty dollar street assignments until Paul proves his mettle. http://rakemucker.blogspot.com/2008/01/did...-oswald-to.html "In the book, Chief: My Life in the L.A.P.D., Daryl Gates writes that the Los Angeles Police Department had a special intelligence unit that ran a program which sent American spies to Russia, totally clandestine and under deep cover. This was during the during the same period when Lee Harvey Oswald made his strange trip to the Soviet Union. A natural question arises; was the accused assassin part of the program?" The CIA of course has worked with police intelligence units. While all big-city PDs have intelligence units that coordinate with [and some members who are part of] the CIA and FBI, DEA, NSA, ONI, MI etc., it would seem to me that this is an attempt to cover a CIA operation by putting it under the cover of a smaller player. I can't imagine what the LAPD or even NYPD would have to gain by putting spies in the USSR or anything other than local groups. Gates however would know all about the RFK Assassination and its cover-up - though I'm sure he said little that is not the official mythology. In Dallas there were certainly a few DPD 'in on it' [some had just joined just for the event] and many more who were of political persuasion that they would just keep their mouths shut if they suspected what was really up....but I don't think the DPD was 'behind' the main event...they were for some smaller events and parts, obviously. In the roles above, I think the Police Departments were used as 'cut-outs' for bigger players and entities with more power. I guess a person had to have been very much involved to tell it like it was/is. I was soinvolved, personally, at various levels. At the same time reporting to US. Intelligence. H.Dean Chief: My Life in the Lapd - Page 4 - Page 72 books.google.com/books?id=epLaAAAAMAAJ Daryl F. Gates, Diane K. Shah - 1992 - Snippet view - More editions .......There were two other units I oversaw, as well. One, deep within Intelligence, was unknown to most. This unit dealt with Communism, Communists, and other subversives. It kept a small office at Wilshire division that was filled with files but rarely occupied. The top guy was Lieutenant Carl Abbott, who had been undercover in the Communist party for years. Carl had actually spent time in the Soviet Union working as an undercover officer for us. Few people in LAPD even knew Carl Abbott existed. He reported directly to me, or to Parker. The third function of Intelligence was to provide security for dignitaries and heads of state. Another area I had to master quickly. For not long after I arrived, President Kennedy flew in to deliver a speech. .... http://www.laobserved.com/visiting/2010/04/daryl_gates_secret_legacy.php Daryl Gates' real legacy David Cay Johnston April 16 2010 4:07 PM When Daryl Gates ran the LAPD from 1978 to 1992 he also ran a worldwide political spying operation. And he lavished time on it, sometimes several hours each day, including all the dossiers and reports he got on the lawful activities of L.A. leaders, elected and not, as well as political and religious groups he suspected were up to no good......... On Page 72 of "Chief: My Life in the LAPD," Gates tells about Lt. Carl Abbott, who spent years undercover posing as a communist, including time in Moscow...... ....Gates even got one officer I interviewed, whose undercover work continued well into the 1970s, to Moscow and Havana. But by the time I got that story Gates had so intimidated someone high up at the L.A. Times or its parent company (or its owners) that the L.A. Times was too cowed to let me tell it..... One little problem with page 72of Chief Gates's book is that Carl Abbott was active in the LAPD in 1930.... WORK WITH REDS TOLD Los Angeles Times - Feb 12, 1935 (Exclu- )-Carl Abbott. who joined the Communist party and learned of Its Inner workings while working under cover for the- Los Angeles Police Department's Red squad, today gave damaging testimony against the sev- enteen radicals on trial on crim- inal syndicalism charges. Abbott, who enrolled in the party In February, 1930, remained as an active member for eleven months. Abbott testified one of the defend- ants, Pat Chambers, was active in the Communist party in Los Ange- les while he was operating an as under cover agent for the police de- partment. Defense Attorney Leo GallaPher asked Abbott about asserted - ful activities of the Los Angeles Red squad. "Isn't It a fact the Red squad beat up Communists and broke up hun- dreds of meetings without cause?" Gallapher asked. "Yes, meetings were broken up, but I have no knowledge of any Communists being beaten," Abbott replied. BOMB RUSE TIPS VOICED Los Angeles Times - Mar 5, 1935 Abbott, a prosecution- witness, told the jury he heard Carl Sklar, a leader of the Communist party, declare in a speech In Los Angeles In 1930 that when the PROSECUTOR FLAYS REDS Los Angeles Times - Mar 26, 1935 ... a prosecution wItness, Carl Abbott of the Los Angeles Po- lice Department's Red squad. Miss Baltram denied that Carl Sklar, a leader. of the Communist party STATE RESTS IN RED CASE Los Angeles Times - Feb 14, 1935 ... of seven- teen Communists after the prosecu- tion, in a surprise move, rested. ... Carl Abbott, a Los Angeles police officer, who was assigned to under- cover ... (Daryl Gates was eight years old when Carl Abbott testified in early 1935 of his infiltration of the Communist party in 1930.) Edited June 6, 2013 by Tom Scully Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Graves Posted June 6, 2013 Author Share Posted June 6, 2013 (edited) Paul, The following was "lifted" and expanded from my ongoing, constantly-morphing, and superseded post, this thread: If Oswald was a US spy, maybe his CIA/ONI controllers told him in advance that he'd be given an undesirable discharge after "defecting" to Russia in order to make the defection look more real to the Ruskies. And if that was the case, then maybe Oswald was really PO-ed when he heard from his ill-informed mom that he'd gotten a dishonorable discharge, instead. Ironically, Oswald could have just been trying to "upgrade" his misperceived "dishonorable" discharge status to the "undesirable" one that he'd originally been promised! I think it's logical to assume that Oswald's actually getting an (unbeknownst-to-him) "undesirable discharge" after defecting actually argues for his being a US spy. I mean, if he'd been a true defector and traitor, wouldn't he really have gotten a dishonorable discharge? Could it be that Marguerite Oswald was intentionally misinformed by someone as to what kind of discharge her son had been given one year after "defecting?" You know, in order to manipulate LHO in some special way? --Tommy Well, Tommy, we need to seek that point at which Lee Harvey Oswald would finally receive regular employment from the CIA (or FBI or ONI). The trouble I have with your hypothesis is that if Lee Harvey Oswald was successful in his spy-training mission, then why didn't Oswald join Richard Helms, James Jesus Angleton, David Atlee Phillips and all the other guys with fat incomes and single family housing and a new car? That is, why wasn't Oswald given a real job? Obviously that is what he wanted. If he was so successful, then why was he denied? The fact that Oswald lived like a pauper does not suggest success to me. One can work underground and still live comfortably. It seems more likely that the CIA (etc.) rejected Oswald. He botched his mission. If one wishes to explain how a CIA agent could be made into a patsy, this is the most straightforward way; Oswald wasn't really a CIA agent, he was a "wannabe" CIA agent. Thus it would have been relatively easy to make Oswald into a patsy. Best regards, --Paul Trejo Dear Paul, Why do you call Oswald's lengthy sojourn in Russia a "training mission?" Training for what ? Why would you send a "spy trainee" to Russia for 2.5 years during the depths of the Cold War? To teach him how to get in quickly via Helsinki? To give him an opportunity to improve his Russian via the "total immersion" method? Do we know of anyone else in the military reserves who became. or already was, a "spy trainee" and who was told to live in a communist country in the Fifties or Sixties as part of his or her training? Isn't there is evidence, as told to Dick Russell by Richard Case Nagell, that Oswald was already actively involved in intelligence or counterintelligence activities in Japan in the late 1950's? Couldn't Oswald have been manipulated from early on in his low-level spy career by being told that he'd be provided with employment for the time being and "really taken care of" financially "later on?" Didn't Oswald tell someone in New Orleans that his "ship had come in?" What kind of "fat cat" good-paying "real job" could the borderline dysfunctional Oswald have performed successfully, anyway? Warmest regards, --Tommy PS-- I am open to the possibility that Oswald went to Russia not on a "training mission" per se but on his own initiative, or with the help of some private person or group. Why? Well, maybe because he wanted to ingratiate (or re-ingratiate?) himself with some US intelligence agency so that he could fulfill his James Bond and "I Led Three Lives" fantasies (again?)and become a U.S. spy (again?), and succeeded at doing so but was very cleverly manipulated thereafter. Just a thought: Maybe your General Walker helped him get into Russia? --Tommy Edited June 6, 2013 by Thomas Graves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Trejo Posted June 6, 2013 Share Posted June 6, 2013 (edited) Dear Paul, Why do you call Oswald's lengthy sojourn in Russia a "training mission?" Training for what ? Why would you send a "spy trainee" to Russia for 2.5 years during the depths of the Cold War? To teach him how to get in quickly via Helsinki? To give him an opportunity to improve his Russian via the "total immersion" method? Do we know of anyone else in the military reserves who became. or already was, a "spy trainee" and who was told to live in a communist country in the Fifties or Sixties as part of his or her training? ...Didn't Oswald tell someone in New Orleans that his "ship had come in?" What kind of "fat cat" good-paying "real job" could the borderline dysfunctional Oswald have performed successfully, anyway? Warmest regards, --Tommy To answer your first question, Tommy, former CIA agent Victor Marchetti told Anthony Summers that in 1959, the USA sought to obtain detailed information out of the USSR, and this included "all sorts of activities," including ONI program which involved from 36 to 40 young men who were made to appear disenchanted, poor, American youths who had become turned off by the USA and wanted to see what the USSR was all about. They were sent into the USSR with the specific intention that the Soviets would pick them up and 'track' them if they suspected them of being US agents, or recruit them as KGB agents. So, Marchetti believed that Oswald was one of these ~40 guys in this ONI program. It seems to me that Lee Harvey Oswald was the only one to get married of that group, and he made the newspapers when he returned to the USA with a Russian wife (far easier than ordinary folks would have returned from the USSR with a Russian wife). As for your further questions, Tommy, if Oswald told someone in New Orleans that his "ship had come in," when in fact he was as poor as a church-mouse in New Orleans, then IMHO this meant that Oswald had been promised a fortune in New Orleans for some secret mission. In my opinion, since we have material evidence (e.g. 544 Camp Street) that he was working with Guy Banister and David Ferrie at the time, Oswald must have been deceived into believing that he was on a secret mission for the right-wing, i.e. to KILL FIDEL, and that when this mission was accomplished, he would be given a fortune, a parade, and a shot at high government office. (That could be why Lee told Marina that he was going to be 'Prime Minister' of the USA when they were in New Orleans.) Yet as George De Mohrenschildt told the Warren Commisison, no government would be "so stupid" as to trust Lee Oswald with anything important. Banister and Ferrie deceived Lee Harvey Oswald -- in fact his entire 'fake FPCC credentials' project in New Orleans was a part of the plot to frame Oswald as a Communist activist -- but Oswald was evidently too naive to figure this out. That is what made him the perfect patsy. The money never came in for poor Oswald. He "botched" his Mexico City mission, but actually that was exactly what Guy Banister (and Edwin Walker) had planned. Oswald was now framed. The rifle that Lee Harvey Oswald purchased to kill Edwin Walker on 10 April 1963 would be the same rifle used to frame Oswald in Dallas for killing JFK on 22 November 1963. Only a master of secret warfare like Edwin Walker could have masterminded this entire scenario. Best regards, --Paul Trejo Edited June 6, 2013 by Paul Trejo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Graves Posted June 6, 2013 Author Share Posted June 6, 2013 (edited) Dear Paul, Why do you call Oswald's lengthy sojourn in Russia a "training mission?" Training for what ? Why would you send a "spy trainee" to Russia for 2.5 years during the depths of the Cold War? To teach him how to get in quickly via Helsinki? To give him an opportunity to improve his Russian via the "total immersion" method? Do we know of anyone else in the military reserves who became. or already was, a "spy trainee" and who was told to live in a communist country in the Fifties or Sixties as part of his or her training? ...Didn't Oswald tell someone in New Orleans that his "ship had come in?" What kind of "fat cat" good-paying "real job" could the borderline dysfunctional Oswald have performed successfully, anyway? Warmest regards, --Tommy To answer your first question, Tommy, former CIA agent Victor Marchetti told Anthony Summers that in 1959, the USA sought to obtain detailed information out of the USSR, and this included "all sorts of activities," including ONI program which involved from 36 to 40 young men who were made to appear disenchanted, poor, American youths who had become turned off by the USA and wanted to see what the USSR was all about. They were sent into the USSR with the specific intention that the Soviets would pick them up and 'track' them if they suspected them of being US agents, or recruit them as KGB agents. So, Marchetti believed that Oswald was one of these ~40 guys in this ONI program. [...] Dear Paul, That's all fine and dandy. Sounds plausible. I have no problem with it. But it doesn't sound like a "training mission" to me. So why did you refer to Oswald's sojourn in Russia as a "training mission" in some of your earlier posts, this thread? When you say that Oswald "bungled his training mission" in Russia, what exactly are you referring to? Regardless, when you say that he "bungled it," are you perhaps suggesting that, although, as Marchetti implied, Oswald was sent to Russia as part of the ONI's false defector program just to 1) enable the monitoring of the tracking of him by the KGB as a putative U.s. spy, and/or 2) to perhaps even be recruited by (!) the KGB, he "blew it" by letting it be known early on to both sides that he intended to tell the Russians "something of special interest" that he knew about as a result of his being an Aviation Electronics Operator in the Marine Corps and working at a U2 base for awhile? In other words, was Oswald "jumping the gun" or "putting the cart before the horse" by making this offer to the Russians on his own initiative, and thereby "blowing" his original reason for being sent there? If not, then please enlighten me, in a non-pedantic way if possible, how exactly he bungled this so-called "training mission." Also, once again: I am open to the possibility, however, that Oswald went to Russia not on a "training mission" per se but on his own initiative, or even with the help of some private person or group. Why? Well, maybe because he wanted to ingratiate (or re-ingratiate?) himself with some US intelligence agency so that he could fulfill his James Bond and "I Led Three Lives" fantasies (again?)and become a U.S. spy (again?), and succeeded at doing so but was very cleverly manipulated thereafter. Just a thought: Maybe your General Walker helped him get into Russia? Warmest regards, --Tommy Edited June 6, 2013 by Thomas Graves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Trejo Posted June 6, 2013 Share Posted June 6, 2013 (edited) Dear Paul, That's all fine and dandy. Sounds plausible. I have no problem with it. But it doesn't sound like a "training mission" to me. So why did you refer to Oswald's sojourn in Russia as a "training mission" in some of your earlier posts, this thread? When you say that Oswald "bungled his training mission" in Russia, what exactly are you referring to? Regardless, when you say that he "bungled it," are you perhaps suggesting that, although, as Marchetti implied, Oswald was sent to Russia as part of the ONI's false defector program just to 1) enable the monitoring of the tracking of him by the KGB as a putative U.s. spy, and/or 2) to perhaps even be recruited by (!) the KGB, he "blew it" by letting it be known early on to both sides that he intended to tell the Russians "something of special interest" that he knew about as a result of his being an Aviation Electronics Operator in the Marine Corps and working at a U2 base for awhile? In other words, was Oswald "jumping the gun" or "putting the cart before the horse" by making this offer to the Russians on his own initiative, and thereby "blowing" his original reason for being sent there? If not, then please enlighten me, in a non-pedantic way if possible, how exactly he bungled this so-called "training mission." Also, once again: I am open to the possibility, however, that Oswald went to Russia not on a "training mission" per se but on his own initiative, or even with the help of some private person or group. Why? Well, maybe because he wanted to ingratiate (or re-ingratiate?) himself with some US intelligence agency so that he could fulfill his James Bond and "I Led Three Lives" fantasies (again?)and become a U.S. spy (again?), and succeeded at doing so but was very cleverly manipulated thereafter. Just a thought: Maybe your General Walker helped him get into Russia? Warmest regards, --Tommy Tommy, the phrase, "low-level spy training mission" comes from Richard Sprague, The Taking of America (1976). I find his scenario compelling. The idea is that these were young men, trained in the military but not seasoned spies. They were young enough so that this would be their first "spy" mission, and so it was "probationary" to borrow a term from private industry. These ~40 young men were carefully observed by both the USA and the USSR, so it was a high-pressure job, no doubt; yet it was still very much a "young man's mission." Now, when I express my opinion that Oswald bungled his training mission in the USSR, I mean that Oswald somehow failed to live up to the full program he was given. I need more information to complete my hypothesis, yet I suspect that his failure had something to do with (1) marrying Marina; or (2) coming back to the USA before he obtained all the information he was ordered to obtain. I need more facts, of course, yet on the surface my theory doesn't suspect that Oswald gave U2 secrets to the USSR. If anybody in the USA truly suspected that scenario, then there is no way that Oswald would have been expedited back to the USA, lent the traveling money, and permitted to bring a Russian wife with him. I suspect, along with Marchetti, that the USA was seeking any information about how the KGB operated (as our technology in 1959 was a fraction of what we have today). I don't think that Oswald botched his mission in any serious way (e.g. treason) but I think he simply quit before his mission was complete, and/or because he decided to get married and start a family and move back to the USA in the middle of his mission. This complicated the mission, and so voided it in the opinion of the controllers, IMHO. As for Oswald's offer of U2 and radar secrets, I strongly suspect that was carefully controlled by Oswald's mission. Remember that the US Embassy officer in the USSR reported that Oswald sounded totally "rehearsed" when he initially sought entry. I believe my opinion is clear to that point. I strongly doubt that Oswald went to the USSR on his own initiative. Again, the puzzle pieces don't fit. Coming back to the USA with a Russian wife, and on the State Department's dime, does not fit the 'bad boy' scenario. No doubt, psychologically speaking, the influence of the TV show, I Led Three Lives, played a role in Oswald's childhood makeup. That is, it seems obvious that Lee Harvey Oswald very much desired to be a professional spy. When he was in New Orleans, his library card usage showed that he checked out a lot of James Bond 007 novels. I gather that Lee Harvey Oswald had no great problems with self-esteem. He thought a lot of his talent -- and we know from CIA documents that the CIA at one point considered "the laying on of interviews" regarding Lee Harvey Oswald. Yet it also seems clear that Lee Harvey Oswald never attained his dream job. Whether those CIA interviews ever actually occurred is unclear. Or whether they occurred, but Oswald performed poorly during the interviews, is also unclear. Often, the most valuable CIA agents would be the best educated -- and it is fairly clear that Lee Harvey Oswald never went to college at all. I suspect that even in 1960 it would be difficult to enter the CIA without a college degree. Finally, as for ex-General Edwin Walker, Jim Root once proposed that Walker helped get Oswald into the USSR, mainly because their dates in Germany match -- it was late in 1959 that they both entered Europe. It's not impossible. Yet it remains purely speculative at this point. I don't (yet) find it to be a compelling scenario. Best regards, --Paul Trejo Edited June 6, 2013 by Paul Trejo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Graves Posted June 6, 2013 Author Share Posted June 6, 2013 (edited) Dear Paul, That's all fine and dandy. Sounds plausible. I have no problem with it. But it doesn't sound like a "training mission" to me. So why did you refer to Oswald's sojourn in Russia as a "training mission" in some of your earlier posts, this thread? When you say that Oswald "bungled his training mission" in Russia, what exactly are you referring to? Regardless, when you say that he "bungled it," are you perhaps suggesting that, although, as Marchetti implied, Oswald was sent to Russia as part of the ONI's false defector program just to 1) enable the monitoring of the tracking of him by the KGB as a putative U.s. spy, and/or 2) to perhaps even be recruited by (!) the KGB, he "blew it" by letting it be known early on to both sides that he intended to tell the Russians "something of special interest" that he knew about as a result of his being an Aviation Electronics Operator in the Marine Corps and working at a U2 base for awhile? In other words, was Oswald "jumping the gun" or "putting the cart before the horse" by making this offer to the Russians on his own initiative, and thereby "blowing" his original reason for being sent there? If not, then please enlighten me, in a non-pedantic way if possible, how exactly he bungled this so-called "training mission." Also, once again: I am open to the possibility, however, that Oswald went to Russia not on a "training mission" per se but on his own initiative, or even with the help of some private person or group. Why? Well, maybe because he wanted to ingratiate (or re-ingratiate?) himself with some US intelligence agency so that he could fulfill his James Bond and "I Led Three Lives" fantasies (again?)and become a U.S. spy (again?), and succeeded at doing so but was very cleverly manipulated thereafter. Just a thought: Maybe your General Walker helped him get into Russia? Warmest regards, --Tommy Tommy, the phrase, "low-level spy training mission" comes from Richard Sprague, The Taking of America (1976). I find his scenario compelling. The idea is that these were young men, trained in the military but not seasoned spies. They were young enough so that this would be their first "spy" mission, and so it was "probationary" to borrow a term from private industry. [...] Dear Paul, Well, do you buy into the idea, conveyed to Dick Russell by Richard Case Nagell, that Oswald was already actively involved in U.S. intelligence or counterintelligence activities (e.g. the Eroshin and Fugisawa affairs) in Japan in the mid-to-late 1950's? If so, then wouldn't that make him a somewhat "seasoned spy" by the time he "defected" to Russia in late 1959? Sincerely, --Tommy Edited June 6, 2013 by Thomas Graves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Trejo Posted June 6, 2013 Share Posted June 6, 2013 (edited) Dear Paul, Well, do you buy into the idea, conveyed to Dick Russell by Richard Case Nagell, that Oswald was already actively involved in U.S. intelligence or counterintelligence activities (e.g. the Eroshin and Fugisawa affairs) in Japan in the mid-to-late 1950's? If so, then wouldn't that make him a somewhat "seasoned spy" by the time he "defected" to Russia in late 1959? Sincerely, --Tommy No, Tommy, I find much to doubt in Nagell's testimony, which is sometimes quite valuable. I believe that Richard Case Nagell told us his honest opinions about Lee Harvey Oswald, but I find that Nagell's opinions were twisted and skewed by his double-agent role. For one thing, as Dick Russell reports it, Nagell warned Oswald that the 'gusanos' he was hanging out with were not truly Fidelistas, but were actually right-wing vigilantes. My reaction is that Lee Harvey Oswald never needed to hear this warning -- Oswald knew very well who the DRE, INCA, Alpha 66, CRC and FDC were, there at 544 Camp Street. This was not news to him. What was news to Oswald was that the KGB (via Nagell) was watching him like a hawk. Nagell told Oswald in no uncertain terms, that if he succeeded in obtaining passage to Cuba via Mexico City, that Nagell would shoot Oswald dead. This added much to the pressure Oswald suffered in New Orleans (but notice that he didn't beat Marina in New Orleans -- he only went loco trying to figure out another route to Cuba -- hijacking a plane, for instance). Nagell claimed to be a double-agent -- that is hard to decifer. He was probably more educated in Marxist principles than Oswald was -- Oswald could recite from FPCC brochures, but not much more. Nagell worked for the KGB (they thought) getting data from the CIA (they thought). But Nagell would have killed Lee Harvey Oswald in Mexico in a second if he was forced to protect his cover with the KGB. The KGB did not want Lee Harvey Oswald to enter Cuba (suggested Nagell) because without a clear invitation from Fidel Castro, the intentions of Oswald would be suspicious -- especially given the fact that Oswald had been associating with Carlos Bringuier, Ed Butler, Guy Banister and David Ferrie in New Orleans during the summer of 1963. Now -- the puzzle of Nagell (as refracted through Dick Russell) is whether Nagell really thought that Lee Harvey Oswald had been fooled by these Cuban Exile right-wingers into believing they were supportive of his FPCC plea for Fidel Castro. If so, then Nagell falsely believed that the fake FPCC chapter that Oswald had set up was really and truly legitimate. That is possible, but that would make Nagell into a naive little boy. Yet that was the substance of his warning to Oswald. No, my feeling is that Nagell knew that Oswald was faking his FPCC chapter, and he was telling Oswald -- in a sidebar -- that his slip was showing. He was really telling Oswald that every intelligent person can see right through his charade, and that if he pursued this fake FPCC chapter all the way to Mexico City, then Nagell would have simply had to kill him. This tallies with the notion that Nagell thought of Lee Harvey Oswald as a right-wing spy "wannabe" who was so naive that he was transparent as glass. But just because Nagell knew that Oswald had been involved in Cryptography and Radar Secrets since 1958, does not mean that Nagell thought of Oswald as a professional spy. Oswald *wanted* to be a professional spy. And Oswald was still trying to make the grade in New Orleans in 1963. But it was obvious to insiders that Oswald was still on the *outside* trying to get *inside*. Oswald made too many mistakes. George De Mohrenschildt said it best, perhaps, when he told the WC that Oswald's main fault was that he didn't know how to lay low -- he had no patience -- he quit his jobs in the middle with alarming consistency. So De Mohrenschildt exclaimed the "no government would be stupid enough to trust Lee with anything important." The operative word there is "important." Lee would get $10 and $20 jobs here and there, but never any major jobs -- and never any offer of full employment with the CIA, the ONI, the FBI or any legitimate Intelligence Agency. Yet Oswald truly wanted to be a spy very much. So, Guy Banister, David Ferrie, Edwin Walker, Guy Gabaldon, Harry Dean, Loran Hall, Larry Howard and John Rousselot were able to use Oswald's craving to make him into a patsy. All they had to do was pretend they were true agents of the CIA. Best regards, --Paul Trejo <edit typos> Edited June 6, 2013 by Paul Trejo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Graves Posted June 6, 2013 Author Share Posted June 6, 2013 (edited) [...] But just because Nagell knew that Oswald had been involved in Cryptography and Radar Secrets since 1958, does not mean that Nagell thought of Oswald as a professional spy. [...] Dear Paul, Cryptography? Oswald was "involved with" cryptography?? As far as I can remember, that's the first time I've hurt [sic] that. Could you please freshen my memory? Sincerely, --Tommy Edited June 6, 2013 by Thomas Graves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Trejo Posted June 6, 2013 Share Posted June 6, 2013 (edited) [...] But just because Nagell knew that Oswald had been involved in Cryptography and Radar Secrets since 1958, does not mean that Nagell thought of Oswald as a professional spy. [...] Dear Paul, Cryptography? Oswald was "involved with" cryptography?? As far as I can remember, that's the first time I've hurt [sic] that. Could you please freshen my memory? Sincerely, --Tommy Umm, well, I might have to back pedal a little bit on this -- I don't mean Cryptography in the modern sense of the term, but in the more general sense of the term, namely, regarding Oswald's work with Radar codes, Code breaking, Photo images and even Microdots (as postulated by Tom Hume on this Forum). In other words, it is well known that Lee Harvey Oswald had a higher Security Rating than many Officers in the military -- simply because he was working at Atsugi. He had a bright future ahead of him if he could only cooperate and play nice with others. But he had to do things his own way. Best regards, --Paul Trejo <edit typos> Edited June 6, 2013 by Paul Trejo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Graves Posted June 7, 2013 Author Share Posted June 7, 2013 (edited) [...] But just because Nagell knew that Oswald had been involved in Cryptography and Radar Secrets since 1958, does not mean that Nagell thought of Oswald as a professional spy. [...] Dear Paul, Cryptography? Oswald was "involved with" cryptography?? As far as I can remember, that's the first time I've hurt [sic] that. Could you please freshen my memory? Sincerely, --Tommy [...] [Oswald] had a bright future ahead of him if he could only cooperate and play nice with others. But he had to do things his own way. Dear Paul, Reminds me a bit of you, Paul. Except that, IMHO, you are just a tad obsequious, a bit pedantic, and slippery as all get out! LOL Sincerely, --Tommy PS-- So now you're saying that, due to the postulations of a certain Mr. Tom Hume, you can safely assume that Oswald was into CODE BREAKING? Give me a break. Just because Oswald's work as an Aviation Electronics Operator in the Marine Corps may have involved his being familiar with some "radar codes" (more likely radio codes and call signs, Paul), and the fact that he at one time did some rather menial work for a company which happened to have microdot technology (Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall) and the fact that he happened to write the word "micro dot" in his address book doesn't necessarily mean that he was a "CODE BREAKER" now does it? Jeez. Edited June 7, 2013 by Thomas Graves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Hancock Posted June 7, 2013 Share Posted June 7, 2013 OK, time for a bit of context here. Some have maintained that Oswald held a "crypto" clearance while at Atsuki. When I was in the Air Force the guys going through crypto school trained next to my class...they did work oprating and repariing crytographic encoding and decoding equipment. They had to hold crypt clearances, a level higher than Top Secret, because of the equipment they worked on but also because of what information might routinely pass through that equipment for encoding and decoding. Nothing to do with radar, code breaking, microdots etc. Oswald's work as a radar operator was that of access control, monitoring and clearing flights into and out of air defense zones. Because of that he would have known the capabilities of the radars he worked with, which were not long range air defense radars, but more importantly the radio exchange passwors and defense region codes and clearances used in handling flights. That information would have been secure and of value to the Soviets, ONI was concerned that Oswald might share' that and it was an issue after his defection. Oh, and yes, Oswald might have tracked U2's but only in the relatively limited ranges of the radars he was working... Oswald was a scope guy, his clearance would have had to do with the capabilities of his radars, the defense zones and general operations of such systems...personally I very much doubt he went to crypto or even TS although Secret would be reasonable. Clearances are assigned by what information you have access to, compartimenalized clearances get even more specific and deal with sources and projects. In any event, Oswald was no doubt a bright fellow but his Marine radar work was what it was, nothing more. -- Larry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Trejo Posted June 7, 2013 Share Posted June 7, 2013 (edited) OK, time for a bit of context here. Some have maintained that Oswald held a "crypto" clearance while at Atsuki. When I was in the Air Force the guys going through crypto school trained next to my class...they did work oprating and repariing crytographic encoding and decoding equipment. They had to hold crypt clearances, a level higher than Top Secret, because of the equipment they worked on but also because of what information might routinely pass through that equipment for encoding and decoding. Nothing to do with radar, code breaking, microdots etc. Oswald's work as a radar operator was that of access control, monitoring and clearing flights into and out of air defense zones. Because of that he would have known the capabilities of the radars he worked with, which were not long range air defense radars, but more importantly the radio exchange passwors and defense region codes and clearances used in handling flights. That information would have been secure and of value to the Soviets, ONI was concerned that Oswald might share' that and it was an issue after his defection. Oh, and yes, Oswald might have tracked U2's but only in the relatively limited ranges of the radars he was working... Oswald was a scope guy, his clearance would have had to do with the capabilities of his radars, the defense zones and general operations of such systems...personally I very much doubt he went to crypto or even TS although Secret would be reasonable. Clearances are assigned by what information you have access to, compartimenalized clearances get even more specific and deal with sources and projects. In any event, Oswald was no doubt a bright fellow but his Marine radar work was what it was, nothing more. -- Larry Thanks for the clarification, Larry. If I may briefly add two cents here; it seems to me that there was little danger of Oswald sharing U2 secrets with the USSR insofar as Oswald entered the USSR under an ONI program involving from 36 to 40 fake defectors (viz. Marchetti). Oswald was hand-picked, trained, rehearsed, and was trusted to follow his script. The fact of Oswald's later poverty; the fact that he was not offered a regular job in the CIA, ONI, FBI, and so on, is, IMHO, evidence that he did not complete his mission satisfactorily -- possibly just because he married Marina. I accept your opinion that Lee Harvey Oswald held a lower level of Security clearance than Crypto-clearance. It is unlikely that Oswald would have been risked on that ONI mission if he had been that valuable. Best regards, --Paul Trejo Edited June 7, 2013 by Paul Trejo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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