Help Please - need to see FBI Item D-77: Kleins orders

[David Von Pein]

7 hours ago, Michael Walton said:

Josephs posted a photo above showing the empty canister at the NA of all places.

Where did Josephs do that? I don't see any picture of an EMPTY film canister.

If you're talking about Cadigan Exhibit No. 1 (which Josephs did post previously)....

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/html/WH_Vol19_0133a.htm

That's not a picture of an empty canister. That's a 1964 picture for WC volume 19. The microfilm is there in that photo.

 

Edited April 12, 2017 by David Von Pein

[David Josephs]

Now you can see thru metal Dave?

We have a canister... that's it.  FBI #D-77.  Whether there is film in there or not isn't anything you can know Dave....  but nice try.

Notice the order #'s written on the box?  Too bad we don't have that film so we can see what's on those other orders...

[Chris Davidson]

David,

Just to compliment your previous post, so others (I know you are already familiar with it) might understand the MO of the powers that be.

Don't want to sidetrack your topic, so carry on.

Quote Tom Purvis:

The reduction in size and resolution problems are an apparant means of the WC to, as stated, "Hide in plain Sight" much of that information which they could not risk keeping completely hid.

And although you are most probably not up to date on the altered survey data in the WC Data block, this too was one of their "slight" sleight-of-hand tricks.

CE882 is purportedly* a copy of the survey plat which Mr. West prepared for the WC after their May 1964 re-enactment of the assassination.

CE883 is reported to be a EXACT "cardboard reproduction" of CE882.

Dates on these are May 31, 1964

In order to understand much of the WC, one must also understand their "slight" sleight-of-hand tricks.

The actual survey plat(CE882) was introduced into evidence in a sealed envelope which was never opened.

Thereafter, CE883 (reproduction on cardboard) was introduced as representing what was inside the envelope and never opened for view.

Now! You may find that I often tend to, if you will, see if anyone is paying attention---------to detail.

 

 

 

[Michael Walton]

Not trying  to  drag this out. I  just  really  want  to  know. is  there  anything  in  the  written  record that describes exactly  what's  in  that  photo? I honestly  thought  it looked  like  an empty canister.

[David Josephs]

A bigger version...  This is either the empty spool, or the outside of the canister...  

There is no film there to be made out...

As I said, Armstrong was at the Archives and saw the empty canister.

 

Edited January 23, 2018 by David Josephs

[David Von Pein]

51 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

Now you can see thru metal Dave?

We have a canister... that's it.  FBI #D-77.  Whether there is film in there or not isn't anything you can know Dave....  but nice try.

What do you think the thing inside the white circle is, David J.? What does that look like to you?....

 

51 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

Notice the order #'s written on the box?  Too bad we don't have that film so we can see what's on those other orders...

Only you care about such meaningless trivia. It's not important in the slightest way in trying to determine whether or not Oswald was shipped Mannlicher-Carcano Rifle No. C2766. You're obsessing over things that mean nothing.

 

 

 

[W. Tracy Parnell]

Good catch DVP, I didn't even notice it. Only makes sense if they were going to get rid of the microfilm why not just get rid of everything? Why put an empty spool and box into evidence?

[David Josephs]

IDK Dave...  that you think it's film is amusing enough...

That you don't understand the entire case is about the details and minutia is your problem, not mine.

Why Tracy?, so to those with less initiative would think the film was in there...

 

[Michael Walton]

good catch dvp. i still would  love to see what's  on  the  film.

[W. Tracy Parnell]

6 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

IDK Dave...  that you think it's film is amusing enough...

That you don't understand the entire case is about the details and minutia is your problem, not mine.

Why Tracy?, so to those with less initiative would think the film was in there...

 

But you say Armstrong saw the empty canister so anyone could go there and see it and reveal the plot. Just get rid of it all and say it's lost.

[David Josephs]

You should have had a career in the FBI !!

J Edgar would have loved you...   plot?  what plot - the one where FBI agent DOLAN takes the microfilm & provides a copy... or the one where agents leave the film with Waldman in his safe...

[David Von Pein]

FWIW....

There's also this Warren Commission testimony of FBI agent James Cadigan (at 7 H 419; emphasis is DVP's):

MELVIN A. EISENBERG -- "Mr. Cadigan, I now hand you an item consisting of a roll of microfilm labeled D-77, and ask you whether you are familiar with that roll of microfilm?"

JAMES C. CADIGAN -- "Yes; I am."

MR. EISENBERG -- "That microfilm will be marked Cadigan Exhibit No. 1."

(The article referred to was marked Cadigan Exhibit No. 1.)

MR. EISENBERG -- "Mr. Cadigan, was Exhibit No. 773 developed from a negative contained in Cadigan Exhibit No. 1?"

MR. CADIGAN -- "Yes; it was printed from that roll."
 

[David Von Pein]

There's also this Warren Commission testimony of Klein's Vice President William Waldman (starting at 7 H 365; DVP's emphasis):

DAVID W. BELIN -- "I'm handing you what has been marked as an FBI Exhibit D-77 and ask you if you know what this is?"

WILLIAM J. WALDMAN -- "This is a microfilm record of mail order transactions for a given period of time. It was turned over by us to the FBI."

MR. BELIN -- "Do you know when it was turned over to the FBI?"

MR. WALDMAN -- "It was turned over to them on November 23, 1963."

MR. BELIN -- "Now, you are reading from the carton containing that microfilm. Do you know whose initials are on there?"

MR. WALDMAN -- "Yes; the initials on here are mine and they were put on the date on which this was turned over to the FBI concerned with the investigation."

MR. BELIN -- "You have on your premises a machine for looking at the microfilm prints?"

MR. WALDMAN -- "Yes."

MR. BELIN -- "And you can make copies of the microfilm prints?"

MR. WALDMAN -- "Yes."

MR. BELIN -- "I wonder if we can adjourn the deposition upstairs to take a look at these records in the microfilm and get copies of the appropriate records that you found on the evening of November 22."

MR. WALDMAN -- "Yes."

(Whereupon, the following proceedings were had at the microfilm machine.)

MR. BELIN -- "Mr. Waldman, you have just put the microfilm which we call D-77 into your viewer which is marked a Microfilm Reader-Printer, and you have identified this as No. 270502, according to your records. Is this just a record number of yours on this particular shipment?"

MR. WALDMAN -- "That's a number which we assign for identification purposes."

MR. BELIN -- "And on the microfilm record, would you please state who it shows this particular rifle was shipped to?"

MR. WALDMAN -- "Shipped to a Mr. A.--last name H-i-d-e-l-l, Post Office Box 2915, Dallas, Tex."

MR. BELIN -- "And does it show any serial number or control number?"

MR. WALDMAN -- "It shows shipment of a rifle bearing our control number VC-836 and serial number C-2766."

[...]

MR. BELIN -- "Mr. Waldman, I'm going to mark what has FBI Exhibit D-77 on it as Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 6, being the container with your initials and the microfilm record itself, which you placed on the microfilm reader and about which you have just testified upstairs."

[...]

MR. BELIN -- "Now, Mr. Waldman, perhaps we'd better further identify the microfilm which show your control numbers. We marked the microfilm as Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 6. Do you have any control numbers on this at all which indicate which microfilm this is?"

MR. WALDMAN -- "This is our film No. 38, which covers our transactions Nos. 269688 through 270596."

MR. BELIN -- "And I believe that you already testified to the control number or transaction number that appears on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7 as being number what?"

MR. WALDMAN -- "270502."

MR. BELIN -- "Mr. Waldman, referring to Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 3, which are the serial numbers of the 100 rifles which were made in this shipment from Crescent Firearms to you, and Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 5, which is the invoice from Crescent Firearms which has stamped on it that it was paid by your company on March 4, is there any way to verify that this payment pertained to rifles which are shown on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 3?"

MR. WALDMAN -- "The forms submitted by Crescent Firearms showing serial numbers of rifles included in the shipment covered by their invoice No. 3178 indicate that the rifle carrying serial No. C2766 was included in that shipment. .... Those forms are your exhibit captioned Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 3. Now, our payment voucher No. 28966 of March 1, 1963, which is your Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 5, shows in the lower portion, second column from the left, the number 3178, which ties in with Crescent Firearms invoice No. 3178."

MR. BELIN -- "And you have before you a carbon copy of a check that was written by your company to Crescent Firearms in the amount of $850, and attached to it, the attachment that shows it's for invoice No. 3178?"

MR. WALDMAN -- "That's correct."

MR. BELIN -- "Mr. Waldman, do your records show whether or not the rifle was shipped with the scope mounted on it, or is there any way that you know whether or not it was?"

MR. WALDMAN -- "Our catalog No. C20-T750, which was the number indicated on the coupon prepared by A. Hidell, designates a rifle with scope attached. And we would have so shipped it unless the customer specifically specified that he did not wish to have it attached. There is nothing in our records to indicate that there was any request made by the customer, and therefore we would have every reason to believe that it was shipped as a rifle with scope mounted."

MR. BELIN -- "Do you know whether or not the rifle would have been broken down in shipment, or whether or not it would have been shipped fully assembled?"

MR. WALDMAN -- "It was customary for us to ship all of these rifles and scopes fully assembled, and I would have no reason to believe that this particular one would have been shipped otherwise."

[...]

MR. BELIN -- "Mr. Waldman, when we testified upstairs in front of the microfilm machine, was the microfilm itself more clear or less clear than the photostats or prints that have been made from it?"

MR. WALDMAN -- "More clear."

MR. BELIN -- "So it would be possible to read items on the microfilm itself that might not come out clear on the printed copies?"

MR. WALDMAN -- "That's correct."
 

Edited April 13, 2017 by David Von Pein

[David Josephs]

So who stole the film from the Archives Dave...

and why?

 

And to Chris' point... the FBI and the WC introduced items into evidence in the most peculiar ways...  CE882, 883, 884 are great examples.

I still find it quite amazing that in all these years we've NEVER heard about a Kleins Carcano with any one of the other 99 serial numbers.  You'd think that would have been quite a find... and would prove they existed.

As it now stands, 1 rifle does not prove a shipment while the FBI's own evidence contradicts their conclusion

Edited April 12, 2017 by David Josephs

[David Von Pein]

41 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

So who stole the film from the Archives Dave...

and why?

What makes you think anybody "stole" it?

Edited April 12, 2017 by David Von Pein