Oswald Leaving TSBD?

[Chris Davidson]

Something like this

http://www78.zippyshare.com/v/OAX0TPUB/file.html

chris

[Robert Prudhomme]

The key to this may be in establishing where PM was standing. Those promoting his short stature being due to perspective maintain he is as far back on the landing as he can be, right up against the glass. The other school of thought has him appearing to be a short man because he is standing on the first step down from the top landing.

As this step is about 7 inches high, this would add about 7 inches to PM's height, plus or minus a bit for perspective, of course.

[Robin Unger]

It's not unreasonable to think Prayer man may have been holding a camera.

During the same timeline, Elsie Dorman was filming from the 4th floor window of the TSBD

In this Zapruder frame we see Altgens and Bothun holding there cameras in a similsr way to the Prayer man stance

Edited April 8, 2015 by Robin Unger

[Robin Unger]

The height of the top landing. is equal too the height at which the white wall, meets the decorative bricks

Edited April 9, 2015 by Robin Unger

[Greg Parker]

Another thing I find interesting. Early in this thread, there was a great deal of discussion as to what Prayer Man may be holding. A bottle of soda, an apple, a sandwich, even a camera was proposed. Ed Ledoux pointed out an image of Ike Altgens with camera at ready in the Zapruder film. Stan Dane placed this image next to the Wiegman image of Prayer Man.

Very similar pose to my eye!

Very similar indeed, Mr Sorensen.

[Vanessa Loney]

The key to this may be in establishing where PM was standing. Those promoting his short stature being due to perspective maintain he is as far back on the landing as he can be, right up against the glass. The other school of thought has him appearing to be a short man because he is standing on the first step down from the top landing.

As this step is about 7 inches high, this would add about 7 inches to PM's height, plus or minus a bit for perspective, of course.

Yes, where PM is actually standing is very important.

I originally assumed, without giving it much thought, that the top step was rather narrow in depth (the 1963 entrance configuration before the landing was modified to be much deeper as it is now). I couldn't discern any significant depth by looking at the Darnell images. With this in mind, Prayer Man could be standing one step down and still appear that he was in the back corner.

Over at ROKC they estimate the depth of the landing to be about 3 feet or 1 meter. Richard Hocking estimates the landing is 40-42 inches. Depending on distances and angles involved, if Prayer Man is standing in the back corner this could very well make him appear slightly smaller as compared with Buell Wesley Frazier, who is standing forward. But there are lots of variables here that have to be worked out.

Another possibly is the Prayer Man is standing one step down, but the precise camera angle makes it appear he is standing in the back corner.

Richard said to calculate this precisely all the relevant distances must be known. He added "regarding the heights and distances, I believe all the essential points are either known or can be estimated to a reasonable degree of accuracy." He expects to post more on this next week. I look forward to this.

I don't think Prayer Man is around 5 feet tall. A man that short should have been conspicuous to someone. Then again, with all of the weird twists, turns and other implausibilities involved with this case, who knows.

Edit: typos

The key to this may be in establishing where PM was standing. Those promoting his short stature being due to perspective maintain he is as far back on the landing as he can be, right up against the glass. The other school of thought has him appearing to be a short man because he is standing on the first step down from the top landing.

As this step is about 7 inches high, this would add about 7 inches to PM's height, plus or minus a bit for perspective, of course.

Yes, where PM is actually standing is very important.

I originally assumed, without giving it much thought, that the top step was rather narrow in depth (the 1963 entrance configuration before the landing was modified to be much deeper as it is now). I couldn't discern any significant depth by looking at the Darnell images. With this in mind, Prayer Man could be standing one step down and still appear that he was in the back corner.

Over at ROKC they estimate the depth of the landing to be about 3 feet or 1 meter. Richard Hocking estimates the landing is 40-42 inches. Depending on distances and angles involved, if Prayer Man is standing in the back corner this could very well make him appear slightly smaller as compared with Buell Wesley Frazier, who is standing forward. But there are lots of variables here that have to be worked out.

Another possibly is the Prayer Man is standing one step down, but the precise camera angle makes it appear he is standing in the back corner.

Richard said to calculate this precisely all the relevant distances must be known. He added "regarding the heights and distances, I believe all the essential points are either known or can be estimated to a reasonable degree of accuracy." He expects to post more on this next week. I look forward to this.

I don't think Prayer Man is around 5 feet tall. A man that short should have been conspicuous to someone. Then again, with all of the weird twists, turns and other implausibilities involved with this case, who knows.

Edit: typos

Thanks Randy. It's so good to have your insightful and intelligent commentary on here. I agree that Altgens and PM seem to be standing in a very similar stance. In fact I'm pretty much won over to the proposition that PM is holding a camera.

In the picture of Altgens, are the 2 pinkish rectangles his hands and the white-ish rectangle the camera? Because that would fit with the position of the white rectangle that PM is holding.

Thanks for your views.

[Vanessa Loney]

Thanks Randy. It's so good to have your insightful and intelligent commentary on here. I agree that Altgens and PM seem to be standing in a very similar stance. In fact I'm pretty much won over to the proposition that PM is holding a camera.

In the picture of Altgens, are the 2 pinkish rectangles his hands and the white-ish rectangle the camera? Because that would fit with the position of the white rectangle that PM is holding.

Thanks for your views.

Thanks, Vanessa.

Concerning the Altgens image, I think that's correct. We know Ike Altgens had a camera, so given the resolution of the Zapruder film and the reflection of the sun, we know those two stacked white-ish rectangles have to be it. Here's a picture of Ike with his camera taken a few minutes later:

Thanks Randy. It's so good to have your insightful and intelligent commentary on here. I agree that Altgens and PM seem to be standing in a very similar stance. In fact I'm pretty much won over to the proposition that PM is holding a camera.

In the picture of Altgens, are the 2 pinkish rectangles his hands and the white-ish rectangle the camera? Because that would fit with the position of the white rectangle that PM is holding.

Thanks for your views.

Thanks, Vanessa.

Concerning the Altgens image, I think that's correct. We know Ike Altgens had a camera, so given the resolution of the Zapruder film and the reflection of the sun, we know those two stacked white-ish rectangles have to be it. Here's a picture of Ike with his camera taken a few minutes later:

Thanks Randy - I'm wondering if that helps us work out what sort of camera that PM might have been holding because I'd be suprised if he would have had something of a similar caliber to Altgens - a professional photo-journalist. Yet, the two white rectangles look very similar in shape.

[Ian Lloyd]

If PM is holding a camera, it doesn't appear to be the most advantageous position to get a decent photograph of the president, seems to me about all he'd end up getting is a good pic of the backs of the peoples' heads in front of him...this isn't to say that I don't think he's holding a camera, the comparisons above are compelling in that respect.

[Ian Lloyd]

But he seems to be standing quite a way back in the doorway which would limit the field of view? In that position, depending upon the speed the motorcade was travelling, PM would have a very limited opportunity to get more than one decent photograph? If it was me, I'd want to be in a position whereby I could take quite a few photographs with the expectation that at least 1 or 2 may not be much good (especially standing back in those shadows and trying to photograph a scene out of the shadows in bright sunlight).

[Tom Hume]

Instead of assuming that Lee Oswald may have been after some nice pictures of the President, try considering the following for a moment:

Lee was the designated patsy and he knew it. He was not where he was assigned to be because the last shot to be fired that day was to be the one that killed him.

Lee was establishing his alibi.

Lee was not concerned with pictures of the President. Lee was concerned with photos of the people around him, and photos of himself in context, all on a continuous roll of film. This would be good to have in case the others gathered at the TSBD entrance somehow "forgot" that Lee had been with them.

With the sun to the south in front of him, Lee was filming from the corner of the TSBD entrance where he was in the shade - optimal lighting conditions for what he needed to do.

He was also close to the TSBD door so that he could get inside quickly to remove his film from the camera in the dark storage room. He put the film in a pre-addressed and stamped package, and hightailed it out of there.

Tom

Edited April 12, 2015 by Tom Hume

[Thomas Graves]

Instead of assuming that Lee Oswald may have been after some nice pictures of the President, try considering the following for a moment:

Lee was the designated patsy and he knew it. He was not where he was assigned to be because the last shot to be fired that day was to be the one that killed him.

Lee was not concerned with pictures of the President. Lee was concerned with photos of the people around him, and photos of himself in context, all on a continuous roll of film. This would be good to have in case the others gathered at the TSBD entrance somehow "forgot" that Lee had been with them.

With the sun to the south in front of him, Lee was filming from the corner of the TSBD entrance where he was in the shade - optimal lighting conditions for what he needed to do.

He was also close to the TSBD door so that he could get inside quickly to remove his film from the camera in the dark storage room. He put the film in a pre-addressed and stamped package, and hightailed it out of there.

Tom

OMG!

Oswald was taking the first selfie!

--Tommy

[Greg Parker]

Instead of assuming that Lee Oswald may have been after some nice pictures of the President, try considering the following for a moment:

Lee was the designated patsy and he knew it. He was not where he was assigned to be because the last shot to be fired that day was to be the one that killed him.

Lee was establishing his alibi.

Lee was not concerned with pictures of the President. Lee was concerned with photos of the people around him, and photos of himself in context, all on a continuous roll of film. This would be good to have in case the others gathered at the TSBD entrance somehow "forgot" that Lee had been with them.

With the sun to the south in front of him, Lee was filming from the corner of the TSBD entrance where he was in the shade - optimal lighting conditions for what he needed to do.

He was also close to the TSBD door so that he could get inside quickly to remove his film from the camera in the dark storage room. He put the film in a pre-addressed and stamped package, and hightailed it out of there.

Tom

I wasn't assuming anything. I just think Prayer Man had a camera and was in a great location to take pictures of whatever was outside the TSBD entrance he may have wished to capture on film, including the motorcade.

Well... since we're just throwing out ideas here... can we run through all the possible cameras he may have had access to?

[Vanessa Loney]

Great idea Mr Parker. We're waiting in anticipation....

[Greg Parker]

Great idea Mr Parker. We're waiting in anticipation....

Hummph!

The hide of some people...

[Vanessa Loney]

Are we still waiting for Mr Parker's camera evidence? Feasibly, he doesn't have any.