Ruth Paine

[Paul Trejo]

Ruth and Michael knew Everett Glover through their Madrigal Singing group.

How long was this going on? Is there a citation?

The reason I ask is Glover has been playing tennis, as part of a regular foursome with both De M's since 1961, according to a statement he gave the FBI.

Yes, Everett Glover says he joined the Madrigal group around 1957 through the Unitarian Church which Michael Paine later attended. The Paine's moved to Irving in the fall of 1959.

So, the earliest likelihood is that they all began singing together around the fall of 1959.

It was already admitted that Everett Glover invited George and Jeanne DeM to his apartment on 22 February 1963 -- so clearly, Everett already knew the DeM's.

That's not the question, however. The question is when did the PAINE's first meet the DeM's.

Now -- you cite tennis -- and yes, George and Jeanne DeM were both tennis buffs -- as Jeanne was a ballet dancer, very agile and health-conscious.

Yet that has nothing to do with Madrigal singing, does it?

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited October 27, 2015 by Paul Trejo

[Chris Newton]

If anybody has real evidence that she did see the DM's afterwards -- I challenge you to present it.

On 11/25/63 Ruth Paine informed the FBI Agent Bardwell Odum that she had met Marina at a party held by Glover. Ruth further stated that the de M's were in Haiti where George was working as a Geologist and that Glover had just moved to a new home that she thought was the former residence of the De M's. She gave the FBI phone numbers and addresses.

That's a lot of information for someone that has had no contact with those parties.

[Paul Trejo]

If anybody has real evidence that she did see the DM's afterwards -- I challenge you to present it.

On 11/25/63 Ruth Paine informed the FBI Agent Bardwell Odum that she had met Marina at a party held by Glover. Ruth further stated that the de M's were in Haiti where George was working as a Geologist and that Glover had just moved to a new home that she thought was the former residence of the De M's. She gave the FBI phone numbers and addresses.

That's a lot of information for someone that has had no contact with those parties.

Well, Chris, we know that Ruth Paine told the FBI that she first met Marina Oswald on 22 February 1963, who arrived with the DeM's. She said this was the first time and the last time that she ever saw George and Jeanne DeM.

Ruth did visit Marina Oswald after that party, however. Then, on April 24th, when Ruth came over to visit Marina, she was surprised to find LHO all packed up and ready to go to New Orleans, asking for a ride to the bus station. LHO was going to leave Marina and June there until he found a job and sent a letter for them to take the bus to New Orleans.

Ruth told LHO she was worried about pregnant, non-English speaking Marina, staying alone in Dallas, while unemployed LHO went to New Orleans to look for work. So, she opened her house -- free of charge -- to Marina to stay with Ruth until LHO found work -- and then LHO could call her on the phone. Then, upon that phone call, Ruth also offered to drive Marina and June to New Orleans -- free of charge. (Not only did Ruth like Marina as a friend, Ruth was also concerned about the fact that Marina was pregnant. Mothers can be like that. And yes, Ruth Paine was sufficiently well-to-do to afford this generosity.)

LHO accepted that. So, Ruth let LHO pack his luggage into her station wagon, and drove them all to the bus station, where LHO deposited his luggage and bought a ticket. LHO gave Marina perhaps $10 for personal expenses. Then Ruth drove them all back to Dallas where LHO loaded up the station wagon with Marina and June's things. Then Ruth drove Marina and Ruth to her house that night, to live while they waited for LHO to call.

LHO called about 15 days later -- on May 9th, 1963.

The FBI asked Ruth if she had seen the DeM's during that period fo time when Marina Oswald stayed at her house from April 24th through May 9th. Ruth said, no, she never saw the DeM's after 22 February 1963, including that period, because, for one thing, the DeM's were no longer in the USA, they were in Haiti.

How did Ruth know? Because MARINA was living with her, that's how she knew!

Marina Oswald was very close friends with the DeM's and knew a lot about them, including where they were from April 24th through May 9th, and that George DeM was a Geologist and that Everett Glover took over the DeM's house in Dallas.

That's how Ruth knew. Very simple. You don't need to drag in the CIA to explain it. Two friendly women speaking about people they knew -- it's just that simple.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited October 27, 2015 by Paul Trejo

[Chris Newton]

How did she know? Because MARINA was living with her, that's how she knew!

Of course you are going to "spin" it anyway you want that fits your thesis, which is entirely consistent with everything else you've written in this space.

The fact is we do not see Ruth attribute her knowledge to anyone else in the report. If I was being interviewed by the FBI about an important matter and all my information came from a third party, i.e. it was not first hand knowledge, I think it would be important to point out the source.

Edited October 27, 2015 by Chris Newton

[Paul Trejo]

How did she know? Because MARINA was living with her, that's how she knew!

Of course you are going to "spin" it anyway you want that fits your thesis, which is entirely consistent with everything else you've written in this space.

The fact is we do not see Ruth attribute her knowledge to anyone else in the report. If I was being interviewed by the FBI about an important matter and all my information came from a third party, i.e. it was not first hand knowledge, I think it would be important to point out the source.

That's not a "spin" Chris. Whatever Ruth Paine knew about George and Jeanne DeM, aside from the one and only time she ever met them at Everett Glover's party on 22 February 1963, Ruth learned from Marina Oswald.

What in the world is so difficult about that simple fact?

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited October 27, 2015 by Paul Trejo

[Chris Newton]

What in the world is so difficult about that simple fact?

That's the problem. It's not a fact. You've done this over and over. You make a statement based on a "feeling" and state that it is a fact.

I can refute part of your statement directly through the testimony of Michael Paine:

TREJO: aside from the one and only time she ever met them at Everett Glover's party

LIEBELER: You never met the De Mohrenschildt?

M PAINE: I have - Everett gave some parties to which we went

You will note M. Paine does not say "party" he says "parties" - plural

[David G. Healy]

What in the world is so difficult about that simple fact?

That's the problem. It's not a fact. You've done this over and over. You make a statement based on a "feeling" and state that it is a fact.

I can refute part of your statement directly through the testimony of Michael Paine:

TREJO: aside from the one and only time she ever met them at Everett Glover's party

LIEBELER: You never met the De Mohrenschildt?

M PAINE: I have - Everett gave some parties to which we went

You will note M. Paine does not say "party" he says "parties" - plural

details, details, DETAILS!

[Paul Trejo]

What in the world is so difficult about that simple fact?

That's the problem. It's not a fact. You've done this over and over. You make a statement based on a "feeling" and state that it is a fact.

I can refute part of your statement directly through the testimony of Michael Paine:

TREJO: aside from the one and only time she ever met them at Everett Glover's party

LIEBELER: You never met the De Mohrenschildt?

M PAINE: I have - Everett gave some parties to which we went

You will note M. Paine does not say "party" he says "parties" - plural

Bzzzt. My challenge was about Ruth Paine. You, however, are changing the topic to Michael Paine -- and ignoring the fact that they were separated in 1963.

Ruth and Michael Paine had known Everett Glover since 1959. Everett attended the Unitarian Church in Dallas -- and Michael Paine was a Unitarian. The Unitarians there had a Madrigal Singing group they all attended.

The Paine's knew Everett FOR YEARS. So, it makes sense that they would attend several parties hosted by Everett.

Where you leap to your bias is in then presuming that the DeM's were always there. Nothing of the kind was said.

Ruth Paine told the WC in clear terms -- she met the DeM's only once in her life -- at one of Everett Glover's many parties.

As for Michael Paine -- the WC didn't ask how many times *he* met the DeM's.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited October 27, 2015 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

On page 194 of the second edition of his book, Destiny Betrayed (2012), James DiEugenio claims that Ruth Paine spoke falsely to the WC when she claimed that she never met George DeMohrenschildt before or after 22 February 1963, when she met the DeM's for the first and last time at one of the many parties of Everett Glover.

Here is what James DiEugenio writes;

When Garrison questioned her on this point before a New Orleans Grand Jury, this previous tenet of hers was shown to be in error. Garrison managed to get her to admit that she and Michael were dinner guests at George’s house in 1966.

The nonsense of this claim is that Ruth gave her testimony to the WC in 1964.

All this goes to the root of James' accusations that fly loose and free about Ruth Paine -- based on, mainly some obscure PROBE articles composed by Carol Hewett, Steve Jones and Barbara LaMonica in the 1990's.

SPECIFIC EVIDENCE? It's still missing.

I'm not done with James' accusations about Ruth Paine -- not by a long shot.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited October 27, 2015 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Brancato]

Paul Trejo - I finally figured something out. You think that you are a teacher and this is your classroom where you are clearly in charge.

[Chris Newton]

Where you leap to your bias is in then presuming that the DeM's were always there. Nothing of the kind was said.

Ruth Paine told the WC in clear terms -- she met the DeM's only once in her life -- at one of Everett Glover's many parties.

As for Michael Paine -- the WC didn't ask how many times *he* met the DeM's.

The problem with YOUR assumptions:

Michael Paine did not go to the February party at Glover's, he was feeling sick.

Michael Paine says "...parties to which WE went.."

If Michael Paine met De M at a party at Glovers it was not the February party, it was on a different date which means the De M's went to more than one Glover party, no matter how you want to "spin" it.

My challenge was about Ruth Paine. You, however, are changing the topic to Michael Paine -- and ignoring the fact that they were separated in 1963.

Michael Paine was at Ruth's on a regular basis when they were separated. Did you read his testimony about his mail?

As for Michael Paine -- the WC didn't ask how many times *he* met the DeM's.

You either think I'm naive about courtrooms and testimony (or you are naive about that subject). Lawyers ask questions to elicit answers that they deem would steer a jury, a judge, a panel, a commission, in a direction that would support their argument. This is why there are two sides, it is the function of the opposing lawyer to cross examine, so that questions that were omitted or that may clarify a subject can be asked. The WC lawyers have a "dream prosecution". It is now our responsibility to point out the un-asked questions.

Your statement that something was not asked is disingenuous at best.

[Paul Trejo]

Paul Trejo - I finally figured something out. You think that you are a teacher and this is your classroom where you are clearly in charge.

Bzzzt!. Wrong again, Paul B.

I'm open and honest. This thread about Ruth Paine is to catalog objections to her story as given to the WC and consistently for the past 50 years to every interviewer afterward.

The attacks and smears on Ruth Paine are plentiful and pitiful. .

All your CIA-did-it nonsense is backing up in your brain. Your team is letting the Real Killers go scot free -- and attacking Quaker Charity Ladies with WILD theories because you have nothing better to offer.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited October 27, 2015 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

Michael Paine did not go to the February party at Glover's, he was feeling sick.

Michael Paine says "...parties to which WE went.."

If Michael Paine met De M at a party at Glovers it was not the February party, it was on a different date which means the De M's went to more than one Glover party, no matter how you want to "spin" it.

Michael Paine was at Ruth's on a regular basis when they were separated. Did you read his testimony about his mail?

You either think I'm naive about courtrooms and testimony (or you are naive about that subject). Lawyers ask questions to elicit answers that they deem would steer a jury, a judge, a panel, a commission, in a direction that would support their argument. This is why there are two sides, it is the function of the opposing lawyer to cross examine, so that questions that were omitted or that may clarify a subject can be asked. The WC lawyers have a "dream prosecution". It is now our responsibility to point out the un-asked questions.

Your statement that something was not asked is disingenuous at best.

Chris, you're an intelligent person -- so why are you REACHING so hard -- splitting hairs and seeking CIA mysteries everywhere?

Michael did not say -- in any way -- that when he and Ruth went to a party at Everett Glovers' house, that the DeM's were there. YOU are trying to force those words into his mouth -- and you are REACHING!

Even if the DeM's went to many parties at Everett Glover's house -- that STILL doesn't prove that Ruth ever met them more than once.

Why keep REACHING? You have NOTHING there!

As for Michael Paine picking up his mail at Ruth's house in 1963, and visiting his children -- yes, all that is well known. That STILL doesn't prove that they spent time telling each other about everything they did all week. It seems to me you've never been divorced -- or you'd understand.

As for the fact that Michael Paine wasn't asked by the WC how many times he met the DeM's (although Ruth was asked) that may mean something to you, Chris, but it means nothing to me. It wasn't important to them, so they didn't ask it. What in the world is the big deal?

The main point is that you are trying to prove -- by REACHING -- that Ruth Paine lied when she said she never met the DeM's more than once in her life. You have NO SPECIFIC EVIDENCE, and you are here mincing verbs and adjectives of Michael's WC testimony to make a case!

C'mon, man, you can do better than that.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited October 27, 2015 by Paul Trejo

[Chris Newton]

Chris, you're an intelligent person -- so why are you REACHING so hard -- splitting hairs and seeking CIA mysteries everywhere?

I'm doing nothing of the sort, I'm responding to your THEORIES with facts elicited from testimony and reports and you respond with more THEORIES.

It is frustrating. I can only compare it to arguing with someone who believes the World is only 40,000 years old and that no evidence to the contrary is acceptable.

[Paul Trejo]

Chris, you're an intelligent person -- so why are you REACHING so hard -- splitting hairs and seeking CIA mysteries everywhere?

I'm doing nothing of the sort, I'm responding to your THEORIES with facts elicited from testimony and reports and you respond with more THEORIES.

It is frustrating. I can only compare it to arguing with someone who believes the World is only 40,000 years old and that no evidence to the contrary is acceptable.

FACTS? What FACT did you elicit? That Michael Paine visited Everett Glover more times that Ruth Paine? Big Deal!

--Paul Trejo