Helliwell's cat's paw

[Larry Hancock]

Cliff, something else does occur to me. I do discuss in NEXUS that the senior CIA officers who were aware of the chemical project were Harvey , Angleton and the head of the Office of Security. That is because their respective groups were the actual users of the project's developments. Most of the CIA chemicals were non-lethal, to be use in security interrogations and of course in intelligence interrogations, especially in interrogation of suspected foreign agents or informants. There was one thing that Security and one of Staff D shared...that was the use of professional safe crackers, break in men and strong arm guys - they were all used to obtain foreign codes and code machines...one way or the other. It occurs to me that a poison delivery weapon would be very handy for them since they were often operating in "denied" areas and overseas. No time or connections to apply poison in a covert manner. One of the reasons the Office of Security had to be briefed on the Staff D contractors was that hey were pros, and when not in use could go off the reservation.

It also occurs to me that in the CIA assassination plans that we know about - which did use poison - the CIA turned to criminals or third party foreign assets to deliver the poison.

The only place I can recall where the Agency was really concerned about going head to head in the use of lethal poison was in Europe, especially in Germany....where the Soviets were using

poisons and some pretty high tech delivery tools. I can only guess what the dart gun might have been developed for but given the proclivity to always match Soviet weapons and the

fact that the CIA had actually lost defectors to Soviet poison attacks, that might be one place to look for the actual use of such a weapon.

[Cliff Varnell]

Cliff;

Connecting some dots, I have always thought that false memorandum (found in Howard Hunt's White House office safe) which incriminates JFK for the Diem murder -- to be suspicious.

Gene

Gene, Brian

Interesting character E. Howard Hunt.

Wore the "fall guy" jacket for Watergate.

Maybe Hunt wore the "fall guy" jacket for the hit on JFK.

http://newcombat.net/Conversation/angleton-helms-memo-re-hunt/

"Angleton's 1966 Memo to Helms re Hunt's Presence in Dallas" by Joseph Trento & Jacquie Powers

Sunday News Journal — August 20, 1978

<quote on>

A secret CIA memorandum says that E. Howard Hunt was in Dallas the day President John F. Kennedy was murdered and that top agency officials

plotted to cover up Hunt’s presence there.

Some CIA sources speculate that Hunt thought he was assigned by higher-ups to arrange the murder of Lee Harvey Oswald.

Sources say Hunt, convicted in the Watergate conspiracy in 1974, was acting chief of the CIA station in Mexico City in the weeks prior to the

Kennedy assassination. Oswald was in Mexico City, and met with two Soviet KGB agents at the Russian Embassy there immediately before

leaving for Dallas, according to the official Warren Commission report.

The 1966 secret memo, now in the hands of the House assassination committee, places Hunt in Dallas Nov. 22, 1963.

Richard M. Helms, former CIA director, and James Angleton, former counterintelligence chief, initialed the memo according to investigators who made the information available to the Sunday News Journal.

<quote off>

I wonder if one faction within the National Security State -- the Staff Support Group at Ft. Detrick, say -- might be inclined to help set up another faction of the National Security State -- the CIA station in Mexico City, say -- as fall guys.

Hunt also was one of the "fall guys" for the Bay of Pigs.

Might have been a hard jacket to shake...

[Cliff Varnell]

Cliff, something else does occur to me. I do discuss in NEXUS that the senior CIA officers who were aware of the chemical project were Harvey , Angleton and the head of the Office of Security. That is because their respective groups were the actual users of the project's developments. Most of the CIA chemicals were non-lethal, to be use in security interrogations and of course in intelligence interrogations, especially in interrogation of suspected foreign agents or informants. There was one thing that Security and one of Staff D shared...that was the use of professional safe crackers, break in men and strong arm guys - they were all used to obtain foreign codes and code machines...one way or the other. It occurs to me that a poison delivery weapon would be very handy for them since they were often operating in "denied" areas and overseas. No time or connections to apply poison in a covert manner. One of the reasons the Office of Security had to be briefed on the Staff D contractors was that hey were pros, and when not in use could go off the reservation.

It also occurs to me that in the CIA assassination plans that we know about - which did use poison - the CIA turned to criminals or third party foreign assets to deliver the poison.

The only place I can recall where the Agency was really concerned about going head to head in the use of lethal poison was in Europe, especially in Germany....where the Soviets were using poisons and some pretty high tech delivery tools. I can only guess what the dart gun might have been developed for but given the proclivity to always match Soviet weapons and the fact that the CIA had actually lost defectors to Soviet poison attacks, that might be one place to look for the actual use of such a weapon.

The more I think it about the more I suspect MK/NAOMI operated primarily outside the country.

MK/NAOMI -- Diabolical doctors, mobbed up ex-drug cops, dart-gun toting CIA men who wore military brass.

A high tech Death Squad operating within the global drug market (a reasonable conclusion given the employment of ex-Project Underworld/FBN agents).

Black markets fluctuate according to the coming and goings of middle men. Eliminating middle men overseas would have been a routine function.

[Paul Brancato]

Cliff - just to be clear, you are suggesting that the throat shot from the front was an immobilizing dart?

[Cliff Varnell]

Cliff - just to be clear, you are suggesting that the throat shot from the front was an immobilizing dart?

The autopsists speculated JFK was struck with a high tech weapon -- a round which wouldn't show up on x-ray, or be found in the body during the autopsy.

FBI SA James Sibert called the FBI Lab to investigate such weaponry.

They fed him BS.

A continuing investigation along that line would reveal the development of such weapons at Ft Detrick and an official briefing of the FBI on the possibility such weapons might be brought in from overseas.

If they'd had an opportunity to blame the crime on Kostikov -- we might of heard a lot about this kind of technology.

JFK was struck in the throat from the front, and appeared to seize up paralyzed in a couple of seconds.

An application of Occam's Razor suggests JFK was hit in the throat with an immobilizing dart.

[Paul Brancato]

Thanks - I happen to think this was probably what happened. A few years ago I looked at the Z film with this in mind and agreed that JFK looks practically frozen as he reaches towards his throat, and he makes no effort to duck. Jackie's movements suggest that she is confused, as she makes no effort to maneuver him to a safer position. If she had heard a shot and seen him like that she would have reacted differently. She knew something was up, but clearly did not suspect he had been shot. I don't buy the explanation that his back support corset restricted his movement so much he couldn't move or be pushed to a safer position.

Assuming that it was a high tech weapon, what does it suggest about the organizers of the ambush? Certainly not maverick mafiosi or right wing nut jobs acting on their own. It suggests at least the collusion of military operatives.

[Thomas Graves]

Thanks - I happen to think this was probably what happened. A few years ago I looked at the Z film with this in mind and agreed that JFK looks practically frozen as he reaches towards his throat, and he makes no effort to duck. Jackie's movements suggest that she is confused, as she makes no effort to maneuver him to a safer position. If she had heard a shot and seen him like that she would have reacted differently. She knew something was up, but clearly did not suspect he had been shot. I don't buy the explanation that his back support corset restricted his movement so much he couldn't move or be pushed to a safer position.

Assuming that it was a high tech weapon, what does it suggest about the organizers of the ambush? Certainly not maverick mafiosi or right wing nut jobs acting on their own. It suggests at least the collusion of military operatives.

Or possible "rogue" CIA officers like David Sanchez Morales?

Was Morales well-enough connected to have access to those weapons? You know, to give to the hit men to use?

--Tommy

[Brian Schmidt]

Thanks - I happen to think this was probably what happened. A few years ago I looked at the Z film with this in mind and agreed that JFK looks practically frozen as he reaches towards his throat, and he makes no effort to duck. Jackie's movements suggest that she is confused, as she makes no effort to maneuver him to a safer position. If she had heard a shot and seen him like that she would have reacted differently. She knew something was up, but clearly did not suspect he had been shot. I don't buy the explanation that his back support corset restricted his movement so much he couldn't move or be pushed to a safer position.

Assuming that it was a high tech weapon, what does it suggest about the organizers of the ambush? Certainly not maverick mafiosi or right wing nut jobs acting on their own. It suggests at least the collusion of military operatives.

Or possible "rogue" CIA officers like David Sanchez Morales?

Was Morales well-enough connected to have access to those weapons? You know, to give to the hit men to use?

--Tommy

In a word, yes.

[Paul Brancato]

Yes - the line between CIA operations and military ones is practically nonexistent.

[Thomas Graves]

Yes - the line between CIA operations and military ones is practically nonexistent.

I'm wondering if he could have gotten that stuff without his superiors and non-rogue colleagues knowing it.

--Tommy

[David Andrews]

Cliff - just to be clear, you are suggesting that the throat shot from the front was an immobilizing dart?

The autopsists speculated JFK was struck with a high tech weapon -- a round which wouldn't show up on x-ray, or be found in the body during the autopsy.

FBI SA James Sibert called the FBI Lab to investigate such weaponry.

They fed him BS.

A continuing investigation along that line would reveal the development of such weapons at Ft Detrick and an official briefing of the FBI on the possibility such weapons might be brought in from overseas.

If they'd had an opportunity to blame the crime on Kostikov -- we might of heard a lot about this kind of technology.

JFK was struck in the throat from the front, and appeared to seize up paralyzed in a couple of seconds.

An application of Occam's Razor suggests JFK was hit in the throat with an immobilizing dart.

If he's shot in the throat with a dart at Zapruder frame 225, the dart has to be traveling with velocity and noise sufficient to frighten Connally as it passes, since in the frames following Connally reacts to a missile on his left and swats at it with his hat, exhibiting other avoidance behaviors as well.

Connally himself noted that he was familiar with rifle fire.

Could this dart be powerful enough to pass through the limo windshield, like a rifle slug?

Where was this dart aimed? At Kennedy's throat? That's a hard target to hit intentionally. Aimed at his face? His torso?

If the dart missed a soft target and was found on the body or clothes, or say had hit Jackie and was found on her body or clothes, how would it be explained in the emergency room?

If it had hit another passenger in the car who was not struck by gunfire, how would this incident be explained?

I'm thinking that if a dart was used, Kennedy's back would be the ideal target. Exposed to the nearer shooting platforms in the rear Plaza buildings, unprotected by the windshield, a target not as affected by the decline of the street as Kennedy's front was to the frontal shooters.

If you look at the view of Kennedy through the windshield in Altgens 6, he may have been hit in the throat by a bullet through the windshield precisely because a frontal shooter's view of his head through the windshield is being gradually obscured due to the decline of Elm Street. I wonder if the shot wasn't fired at the last possible second of viewing Kennedy through the windshield, and thus struck the throat because it was aimed low to compensate for the street decline.

Edited November 12, 2015 by David Andrews

[Chris Newton]

I think this has been posted before. It suggests that the CIA had developed rounds that could kill surreptitiously so that may also suggest they could develop rounds for other purposes.

[Cliff Varnell]

Cliff - just to be clear, you are suggesting that the throat shot from the front was an immobilizing dart?

The autopsists speculated JFK was struck with a high tech weapon -- a round which wouldn't show up on x-ray, or be found in the body during the autopsy.

FBI SA James Sibert called the FBI Lab to investigate such weaponry.

They fed him BS.

A continuing investigation along that line would reveal the development of such weapons at Ft Detrick and an official briefing of the FBI on the possibility such weapons might be brought in from overseas.

If they'd had an opportunity to blame the crime on Kostikov -- we might of heard a lot about this kind of technology.

JFK was struck in the throat from the front, and appeared to seize up paralyzed in a couple of seconds.

An application of Occam's Razor suggests JFK was hit in the throat with an immobilizing dart.

If he's shot in the throat with a dart at Zapruder frame 225, the dart has to be traveling with velocity and noise sufficient to frighten Connally as it passes, since in the frames following Connally reacts to a missile on his left and swats at it with his hat, exhibiting other avoidance behaviors as well.

I'd put the throat shot circa Z190.

Connally himself noted that he was familiar with rifle fire.

Could this dart be powerful enough to pass through the limo windshield, like a rifle slug?

Would they aim thru a windshield?

Where was this dart aimed? At Kennedy's throat? That's a hard target to hit intentionally. Aimed at his face? His torso?

Either the shot was a hit or a miss.

If it was a conventional round it not only missed but was some kind of short load.

So we have the big screw-up scenario-- or the shot hit precisely where they wanted it.

If the dart missed a soft target and was found on the body or clothes, or say had hit Jackie and was found on her body or clothes, how would it be explained in the emergency room?

It wouldn't have been found in the body.

If we go with a screw-up scenario and a high tech strike couldn't be denied, the FBI had been briefed by Army Special Op civilians on the possibility this sort of weapon might be brought in from another country.

If it had hit another passenger in the car who was not struck by gunfire, how would this incident be explained?

Blame it on Kostikov, the alleged KGB agent in Mexico City the alleged Oswald allegedly visited.

I'm thinking that if a dart was used, Kennedy's back would be the ideal target. Exposed to the nearer shooting platforms in the rear Plaza buildings, unprotected by the windshield, a target not as affected by the decline of the street as Kennedy's front was to the frontal shooters.

I agree. I suspect the back shot was a shellfish toxin round.

If you look at the view of Kennedy through the windshield in Altgens 6, he may have been hit in the throat by a bullet through the windshield precisely because a frontal shooter's view of his head through the windshield is being gradually obscured due to the decline of Elm Street. I wonder if the shot wasn't fired at the last possible second of viewing Kennedy through the windshield, and thus struck the throat because it was aimed low to compensate for the street decline.

[Cliff Varnell]

I think this has been posted before. It suggests that the CIA had developed rounds that could kill surreptitiously so that may also suggest they could develop rounds for other purposes.

From the Church Comm. testimony of CIA Director William Colby (pg 17)

http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/church/reports/vol1/pdf/ChurchV1_1_Colby.pdf

<quote on>

Mr. CHAIRMAN: Is it not true, too, that the effort not only involved not only designing a gun that could strike at a human target without knowledge of the person who had been struck, but the toxin itself would not appear in the autopsy?

Mr. COLBY: Well, there was an attempt—

Mr. CHAIRMAN: Or the dart.

Mr. COLBY: Yes; so there was no way of perceiving that the target was hit.

Mr. CHAIRMAN: As a murder instrument, that is about as efficient as you can get, is it not?

Mr. COLBY: It is a weapon, a very serious weapon.

<quote off>

Vincent Bugliosi, Reclaiming History, pg 170-1:

<quote on, emphasis added>

In a small alcove of the autopsy room at Behsda Naval Hospital, the acting chief of radiology, Dr. John Ebersole,

clips the last of the x-rays onto a light box. Nothing. No bullet. The president's entire body has been x-rayed

and still the doctors have been unabel to determine what happened to the bullet that struck his back.

"Where did it go? someone asked.

The doctors have no idea. A discussion ensues about what might have happened to it. Someone suggests the possibility

that a soft-nosed bullet struck the president and disintegrated. Others contemplate that the bullet could have been

"plastic", and therefore not easily seen by x-rays, or that it was an "Ice" bullet, which dissolved after contact. None

of the suggestions made much sense, but then neither did the absence of a bullet. FBI agent Jim Sibert decided to call

the FBI laboratory and find out if anyone there knew of a bullet that would almost completely fragmentize. He managed to

reach Charles L. Killion of the firearms section of the lab, who said he never heard of such a thing. After Sibert

explained the problem. Killion asked if he was aware that a bullet had been found on a stretcher at Parkland Hospital.

Sibert hadn't and is nearly certain that no one else at the morgue has either. Sibert hangs up the phone, returns to the

autopsy room, and informs the three pathologists that a bullet had been recovered at Parkland Hospital.

<quote off>

But Killion certainly knew of weapons which would not show up on x-ray.

The FBI knew that Army Special Ops had such a weapon, and to anticipate similar weaponry to be imported from hostile states.

As far as using a blood soluble paralytic -- it makes more sense to paralyze the target first than expect with 100% certainty that a First-Shot/Kill-Shot would be successful..

Edited November 12, 2015 by Cliff Varnell

[Cliff Varnell]

Senseney testimony 164

<quote on>

Q: In other words, you were told that an order was given that the CIA wanted their shell fish toxin back. And did you
participate in preparing the packaging?

Senseney: No, I was not in the agent category. I'm scared of that.

<quote off>


From Larry Hancock's Someone Would Have Talked, pg 496:

<quote on>

[Former CIA employee Gary] Underhill's concern was that he had become aware of a "clique" within the CIA--a clique
dealing with weapons and gun-running and making money. These individuals had Far Eastern connections, narcotics was
mentioned, supposedly the clique was manipulating political intrigues to serve their own ends. Underhill believed
that these individuals had been involved with JFK's murder; he felt that JFK had become aware of their dealings and
was about to move against them in some fashion. He also believed that members of the clique knew that Underhill was
aware of their dealings and that his own life could well be in jeopardy.

<quote off>

Scary guys, MK/NAOMI...

Edited November 13, 2015 by Cliff Varnell